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Ralph Savarese
12-26-2011, 05:12 PM
What would you guys recommend 66 2+3 Triple hatch barrel back older Volvo outdrive. Can anyone set me up with a link to all I would need? I Know I need the Upper bracket also
Thanks Ralph

gcarter
12-26-2011, 05:52 PM
Yes, besides the bracket, you'll need a Char-Lynn helm sized to the cylinders you pick, a steering column designed for the Char-Lynn helm, the two cylinders.......any of the current flock of hardware for performance boats, or a pair of Hynautic K5-B cylinders, which might be a lot less expensive, a reservoir, a GM (or similar) power steering pump, a return line filter, a cooler, and throw in a relief valve for good measure.
A lot of trhis stuff is available on eBay, set up some searches.
This is a worthy project and you can spend a lot, or piece it together and have a system every bit as good.
When you make some of these decisions, I can help w/sizing certain components.

Ralph Savarese
12-26-2011, 08:26 PM
I am looking for a set up with a hydraulic helm not a PS pump

gcarter
12-26-2011, 08:41 PM
Are you expecting some help while steering?
My TR came w/an unboosted system. It was hell turning either direction..... w/the boat on the trailer.
Other problems too, using a Hynautic H-41 double helm, (like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/HYNAUTIC-H-41-8726-SERIES-40-BOAT-HYDRAULIC-HELM-UNIT-/400210950445?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item5d2e6e792d ) only supplies 5.5 cu. in. per revolution, which requires quite a few turns using many cylinders that are available.
As you can see, these 5.5 cu. in. helms are pretty expensive. Your best bet is to look for a complete used Hynautic system, complete w/K5-B cylinders.

gcarter
12-26-2011, 08:50 PM
Here's a picture of the unboosted system that came w/the TR. I think you'll find there aren't many unboosted systems abvailable. There's lots of cylinders and brackets available, but not many hydraulic helms available that are designed to operate unboosted.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30108&d=1183835606

BUIZILLA
12-26-2011, 09:05 PM
why do you need a dual ram for a Volvo drive?

silverghost
12-26-2011, 09:14 PM
In addition to the various systems George already mentioned~

Teleflex SeaStar makes a self-contained helm pump style steering system.
There is no external pump and is unboosted.
The steering helm unit itself is actually a self contained pump, extra fluid storage & valving unit; all in one package.
Usually the hydraulic steering cylinder itself is installed internally in your boat in place of the existing steering cable style systems. They push & pull the outdrive's tiller arm attached to the outdrive's existing steering helmet.
When you let go of a steering wheel on a SeaStar hydraulic steering system the boat's steering locks in place through internal valving in the helm pump unit .
There are various cubic inch displacment helms from available from SeaStar for various lock-to-lock turn ratios.
Cylinders are also available for old Volvo, Mercruiser, & other Inboard & outdrive applications.
This is the most inexpensive way to add hydraulic steering to almost any boat.
I would not suggest this type of steering system for any boat that runs over 65 MPH.

gcarter
12-26-2011, 09:45 PM
Brad, the Seastar utilizes an internal cylinder, and Ralph wants to use an external cylinder which will have larger displacement and is probably not a good match for the helm you mentioned. I think most of Seastar helms are in the range of only about 2 cu. in. per revolution.
All of these components have to be matched or you may be turning 6-10 turns from lock to lock.

silverghost
12-27-2011, 12:54 AM
George~ You are correct & on the money here.

I just offered-up the Seastar idea since he did not want an engine mounted boost pump ; and seemed to want a self-contained helm pump.
Your old take-off Hynautic system would be a better option , over the SeaStar if he did not want an engine, or electric boosted hydraulic pump system.

All SeaStar cylinders are internally mounted in the boat itself and are of very small CuIn displacment.
The Sea Star helm pumps match these very small internal steering cylinders.

mattyboy
12-27-2011, 09:12 AM
A few things that would be of concern to me. not sure if they will be to you though

the new helm will most likely not fit the original teleflex bezel and will look like hell. This happened on my 68 when they upgraded to a half hydraulic power steering system.

the second thing would be the transom,the early classics had an hour glass shaped transom core that really only supported the drive even the thru hulls were cut out around this support the layup on the early 64-66 classics were light compared to the boats produced after that. either a single or a dual ram's anchor point on the transom will need some backing support. This might not be the case if you have redone your transom Ralph. depending on what you already have on hung on the transom placement of the rams might be tricky. there are a few members with older volvo classic looking to do the same maddad and kibyvv might be worth dropping them a line to compare notes.

Ralph Savarese
12-27-2011, 09:58 AM
I have been talking with maddad he has great ideas. I re did My transom has been redone and the thicker part goes well beyond the stringers

BUIZILLA
12-27-2011, 10:34 AM
I may have a wing plate...

single or dual ram?

Ralph Savarese
02-22-2012, 10:26 PM
Buizilla,
Hi at the last post you said you might have a wing plate duel piston.
Is that true? I would like to purchace it if so. Can you please let me know. Rsav65@verizon.net
Thanks Ralph

HallJ
02-23-2012, 05:33 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Post 14

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?64438-Full-Power-Hydraulic-Steering-Conversion-Help

Jeff

Ralph Savarese
02-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Thanks Mike and Scott I appreciate all the help,
So far I purchased a Hynautic H41-1 helm it installed perfectly under the dash with the original helm in place.
I found a reservoir Rv60 on EBay new with the built in relief valve
I found 1 New Hynautic K5 Cylinder .It looks like I will have to go to shorter exhaust tips to prevent hitting when the drive tilts up
It looks like as of now I still need .
1) A wing plate Scott is working on that
2) I need an additional k5 cylinder
as of now I am going to do plastic lines inside and stainless braded outside Has any of you done that with compression fittings? Does it work ok? All of the sea star cylinders I have seen seem to have them. I presume that it works. I figure get it working with that and then change out the lines later if needed. Why does it call for 1/2 inch line out but 3/8 on the return the holes in the helm are all the same? The line size is only as good as the smallest restriction correct?

Ralph Savarese
02-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Thanks Mike and Scott I appreciate all the help, So far I purchased a Hynautic H41-2 helm it installed perfectly under the dash with the original helm in place. I found a reservoir Rv60 on EBay new with the built in relief valve. I found 1 New Hynautic K5 Cylinder. It looks like I will have to go to shorter exhaust tips to prevent hitting when the drive tilts up.
It looks like as of now I still need.
1) A wing plate Scott is working on that.
2) I need an additional K5 cylinders of now I am going to do plastic lines inside and stainless braded outside.
Has any of you done that with compression fittings? Does it work ok? All of the Sea Star cylinders I have seen seem to have them. I presume that it works. I figure get it working with that and then change out the lines later if needed.
How about 3/8 copper flared? Why does it call for 1/2 inch line out but 3/8 on the return the holes in the helm are all the same? The line size is only as good as the smallest restriction correct?
Thanks Ralph

gcarter
02-26-2012, 08:21 PM
I think you'll find the 3/8" line is the supply from the reservoir, and that the "R" is for reservoir, not return . The 1/2" lines are the Port & Stbd supply lines to the cylinders.....that fluid gets recirculated.
As far as pressure and plastic tubing goes, I'm not sure, but Seastar systems may operate at a lower pressure. The relief valve on these is set @ 950 PSI. In fact, the manual suggests copper tubing. I used Aeroquip SAE 100R-4 hose.
I hope you end up not overwhelmed w/the 5 turns L to L. I suppose if you get tired of cranking, you can always add a power steering pump and a Char-Lynn helm........those are the only components that change.

Having been through this myself, I've collected a number of documents on these systems.
I hope they're helpful.

Ralph Savarese
02-26-2012, 09:37 PM
How should I expect the boat to handle with 5 L to L

gcarter
02-26-2012, 10:02 PM
Ralph, the faster you go the less of a problem it is.
But around docks and close quarters it can be a handfull.

Think about a very old truck, maybe early '50's, w/manual steering.
It's not like a sports car.

Ralph Savarese
02-26-2012, 10:08 PM
Is there lower volume cylinders I can get? I can't seem to find anything else that will work.

gcarter
02-26-2012, 10:38 PM
Any of the major brand cylinders will have lower volume, but it comes w/a pretty steep price. Also, they tend to be much shorter which gives a different, and not as good geometry.
It's really easy to add a pump and Char-Lynn helm.

Ralph Savarese
02-26-2012, 10:53 PM
Already purchaced A Hynautic 5.5 helm $750 I guess I have to give it a try.

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 07:34 AM
George is there a way to keep my original bid T bezel and install a char-lynn helm Maybe do an electric PS pump which char-lynn helm would i need for 2 k5 cylinders?

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 08:52 AM
George, Can I speak to you on the phone I an concidering going your route can i call you you can e mail me your # at rsav65@verizon.net.
Thanks Ralph

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 10:52 AM
Electric PS pump anyone know if this will work


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydraulic-power-steering-pump-Hot-rod-electric-Custom-/260934776463?hash=item3cc0ecb68f&item=260934776463&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydraulic-power-steering-pump-Hot-rod-electric-Custom-/260934776463?hash=item3cc0ecb68f&item=260934776463&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr)

gcarter
02-27-2012, 11:11 AM
Hi Ralph;
Take alook at:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?64438-Full-Power-Hydraulic-Steering-Conversion-Help
And post # 14. Jeff did an outstanding job on his helm installation.

Sure Ralph, you can call me at my office, although I'm in and out a lot.
800-267-3886

gcarter
02-27-2012, 11:15 AM
Ralph, I've seen that add before and it's one of the few electric pumps,I think, that will directly replace a GM Saginaw pump.

Most electric pumps, like the Seastar, will only supply the equivalent of 2 cu. in. per revolution, which isn't enough for your configuration..

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 11:54 AM
Thanks George I will give you a call which char-lynn
helm would you recommend that will give me 2.5-3 L to L

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 06:40 PM
George i tried the number you gave just someone reading #s on a message and then goes to busy
Well anyway i am going to a char-lynn 211-1010 should give me 2.7 lock to lock which is real close to what i have now any thoughts on ps lines and or electric pump? I still need 1 k 5 cylinder, wing plate and bolts for the wing plate

Ralph Savarese
02-27-2012, 07:23 PM
what length column for the original bezel when using char-lynn

gcarter
02-27-2012, 08:06 PM
Ralph, sorry about the phone #!
Some days I guess i can't do things right!
800-267-3886

The 211-1010 helm is what I used and should work well.

As far as the shaft goes, ask Jeff Hall as he's very familial w/them.

I used a NOS 3" long Latham helm i found for $150.00. on eBay.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70229&d=1330206946


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70232&d=1330206953

HallJ
02-28-2012, 10:28 AM
I'll try and remember to measure this evening, and get you a part number.
Parker ax series hose is nice. You'll want to use 3/8" or -6 same thing. Parker AX06 is the hose part number.
Your hydraulic shop can recommend the crimp on fittings.

Jeff

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 10:53 AM
Southwest hydraulics that I am getting the helm from says that I should use 1/2 from the helm to the piston split off tee and 3/8 to the pistons.
a part # for the column would be great thanks
Still looking for another K5 cylinder . Any leads?
Ralph

gcarter
02-28-2012, 11:48 AM
Ralph, an important design consideration is the location of the reservoir. Many times it will be on the rear seat back.
Where ever it is, you need to put a tee into each of the port and stbd cylinder lines, near the reservoir, to plumb the relief valve.
In other words, a "jumper" line from the cylinder supply lines to the port and stbd ports of the relief valve that's part of the reservoir.

HallJ
02-28-2012, 12:36 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Are you using two cylinders?

Jeff

HallJ
02-28-2012, 01:00 PM
Ralph,

16 ft/sec is an acceptable velocity for a pressure line.
With the 9.7 cu in helm you have selected you'll have about 11.6 ft/sec in a 3/8 hose.
Assuming you could turn the wheel at 100 RPM. This leaves you with plenty of margin.
You could run 1/2 push lock on the return to keep you within the acceptable range of 8ft/sec on the return line.
In the real world, 3/8 will work just fine all the way around.

Jeff

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 02:36 PM
2 k5 cylinders what is the blow off valve for just bottom out ?

HallJ
02-28-2012, 03:07 PM
The cross port relief is to protect a blow from an under water obstruction.
This saves the the hydraulic components.

Jeff

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 09:39 PM
Where do I find these relief valves

TXDONZI
02-28-2012, 09:49 PM
Will a Char-Lynn 241-1038-002 work for a single DPX setup? Its what I have at this time!!!

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 10:29 PM
It depends on the volume of your cylinders and how many turns you want lock to lock

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 10:32 PM
I am also not familiar with that helm you need to know the details of in3

TXDONZI
02-28-2012, 10:36 PM
I can't seem to find any details on it.....

Ralph Savarese
02-28-2012, 10:48 PM
Contact midweststeering.com on it they are great talk to Greg

gcarter
02-29-2012, 09:48 AM
"Where do I find these relief valves

Ralph, yours is built into your reservoir and will require a little extra plumbing.

Here's mine on the transom. In the second picture, you can see the "crossover" required to connect the outer port of the port cylinder to the inner port of the stbd cylinder.
In the third picture, you can see the Aeroquip hose I used and the crimp on fittings. I got a pretty good price on this hose because Rick Bagwell and I bought enough for two boats.....something over 100'.


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70286&d=1330526856


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70287&d=1330526858


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70288&d=1330526861

Ralph Savarese
02-29-2012, 10:29 AM
Is that a hynautic pressure relief valve? All 3/8 including front feeds?

gcarter
02-29-2012, 10:46 AM
Yes Ralph.
You have one similar to it, and it's attached to the bottom of your reservoir.

gcarter
02-29-2012, 10:51 AM
"Will a Char-Lynn 241-1038-002 work for a single DPX setup? Its what I have at this time!!!"

TXDONZI, this seems to be a slightly different Series 4 Char-Lynn helm. I'm not sure what the "4" in the number means, but I think the "1038" needs to be "1005" for proper displacement for two cylinders.

TXDONZI
02-29-2012, 11:57 AM
The DPX steering cylinders are really small. The following data was email to me by Eaton directly. Sorry I dont mean to try and hyjack the thread I just wanted a tibit of info and didnt thing a whole nother thread was warrented.

SERIES 4
NOMINAL FLOW RATING - 11 L/min [3.00 gal/min]
INLET PRESSURE RATING - 124 bar [1800 lbf/in2]
RETURN PRESSURE RATING - 10 bar [145 lbf/in2] MAXIMUM
DISPLACEMENT - 120 cm3/r [7.33 in3/r]
FLOW AMPLIFICATION - NONE
NEUTRAL CIRCUIT - OPEN CENTER
LOAD CIRCUIT - NON REACTION
VALVE OPTIONS - MANUAL STEERING CHECK VALVE
INLET OR LOAD SENSE RELIEF VALVE SETTING - NONE

Ralph Savarese
02-29-2012, 12:22 PM
I dont know what you are talking about i dont have a reservoir.
changed over systen since i decided to go with the char-lynn

gcarter
02-29-2012, 03:56 PM
Ralph, you may have shot youurself in the foot.
You'll likely need a reservoir, and you do need a relief valve.
I would have suggested selling the helm and keeping the reservoir.

Ralph Savarese
02-29-2012, 04:21 PM
There is a substanial size reservoir on the PS pump

gcarter
02-29-2012, 06:54 PM
Well, I tried to help you.
If you go back to my post #2 & #4, you'll see my advice hasn't changed, but you've taklen several detours.

Do what you like, it's your boat.

Ralph Savarese
02-29-2012, 07:38 PM
George believe me I took a lot of your advice, don't be insulted, I went your way with the helm. Even with all my automotive experience and an auto engineering degree I still learned a lot from the hydraulics guy, very interesting stuff . Plenty of ways to skin a cat, I guess

johnnywhale
03-30-2012, 07:27 PM
Didn't want to jump into the other p.s. thread, but Ralph Sav's Volvo setup is coming along nicely
Johnny

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/johnnywhale/Donzi/ralphps1.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/johnnywhale/Donzi/ralphps2.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/johnnywhale/Donzi/ralphps3.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/johnnywhale/Donzi/ralphps4.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/johnnywhale/Donzi/ralphps5.jpg

Ralph Savarese
03-30-2012, 10:37 PM
I can't wait until it is done! This has been encompassing all of my thoughts for about a month now. I appreciate all the help especially John and Mike for coming out and spending time to get it done. I am Glad we did what we did with that wing plate For some reason the Latham wing plate would not work about 1 1/2" short on throw with that plate. I am glad I tried Mikes. I hope it works for you Mike. Maybe the shape of my transom? I am going in uncharted waters with this. I have yet to see an external Volvo set up actually work even though there has always been a lot of talk about it. Who has actually made it happen yet kind of scary!

MOP
03-31-2012, 07:58 AM
Ralph as usuall very sanitary! I have always like that style ram, very easy to service plus it looks very Manly!

A p.s. Ralph has been an automotive teacher for many years, his 18 sounds mean and rocks he is a hammer down guy!

Ralph Savarese
03-31-2012, 01:39 PM
By by steering helmet without the steering helmet and fork in he way I am able to put sholderd bolts through the drive fork pivots with nuts. It totally takes out all play just realized I had the space to nut and bolt it with the helmet gone.

HallJ
04-03-2012, 01:19 PM
"I have yet to see an external Volvo set up actually work even though there has always been a lot of talk about it. Who has actually made it happen yet kind of scary!"


Did it three years ago on a an XK19.....Not a big deal.


Jeff

blackboat
04-03-2012, 03:20 PM
Ralph

I did this on my 18 Corsican 6 months before I sold it and made a huge improvement in handling.
It also went on a 21 foot Hornet and Donzix18. All had Volvo drives.
Two of them were 70 to 75 mph boats and one was a 86 to 90 mph boat and it was a big improvement for all.

Nice job, looks very similiar to the one on the
Donzi x18, same hynautic cylinder.

I am in the process of redoing hoses and fittings on my Sutphen and changing a few things to clean up rigging,and yes It does take some time to plan out yourself.