November 22, 1963

[scippy]

A hypothetical.................Owald misses the third an deadly head shot
Kennedy is only hit once through the neck...............does he survive?
I believe it wasn't fatal. Do you think Kennedy survives?.......I guess
it's a real "What if" question.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Scippy / Pete ...............that is some pretty heavy stuff , and what brought that on ............the date ? Funny thing , my father and i saw JFK when i was a very young .......................passing by is motorcade seeking votes (campaign) for the presidency .....in Saginaw Mich right in front of the fair grounds.

[zelatore]

Have you been reading Mr. King?

[scippy]

Artie I always wondered how it would have played out differently that day. I supose it's
a heavy topic.............some 48 years ago and still fresh in my mind....probably always.

[scippy]

Was vaguely aware of the new novel "11-22-63" by Stephen King ...very interesting....What could've been!

[Ghost]

Interesting. I had not yet heard of this book.

I will use a slightly different premise, to get rid of variables such as sympathy for the wounded President, less than full recovery (e.g.: what if he lived but could never speak again?), and so on.

Meaning, the premise simplifies to: 'suppose no one had been hit by the shots in Dallas. Run the clock forward--what happens?'

Before I take a stab, I'm trying to ignore modern political controversy and focus on the big, historical picture. But I'm not sure it's entirely possible to avoid having people infer things that quickly can lead to modern political controversy. I tried. And so I won't go any further than what's below.

I'd have to think a lot about the possibilities. Perhaps most important, he would likely have personally and irrefutably shattered revisionist claims (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/vietnam.htm) that he'd have stopped the Vietnam War. I suspect Stephen King's book, or ANY book with this sort of 'what-if' premise, seems likely to focus heavily on Vietnam. But if one looks at all the massive upheaval of the sixties, with such deep-seated clashes over money, race, sex, drugs and the cold-war, Kennedy had little chance of presiding happily or peacefully, abroad or at home, from 11.23.63 through January of 1969. Not Kennedy. Probably not anyone.

And thus regardless of the details, one big-picture item absolutely leaps out. With near certainty, had he not been shot, he would not be nearly so revered today. For perspective, perhaps imagine a legacy that was a mash-up of LBJ's and Teddy Kennedy's.

[gcarter]

In answer to Ghost, since Kennedy started the war, it's unlikely he'd have stopped it (but that may be what Ghost said). Also, Kennedy was pretty unpopular once in Office, particularly after the Bay of Pigs invasion, the dismal settlement of the Cuban Missle Crises and the end of the Monroe Doctrine. Additionally, if one looks at his record as president as far as legislation, it's pretty poor, other than the monumental tax cuts he led through Congress.
Anyone can get something right.

BTW, I saw Kennedy in Houston after he got off his plane the day before his Dallas trip. I was in High School, and was climbing stairs the next day when they announced it on the PA. I remember thinking that I just saw the dude the preceding day.
I had been a big Goldwater fan, and was really disappointed at the election outcome.

[mattyboy]

high school?????????????????????????????????? I was almost 2yr old then, I can tell ya one thing if Kennedy survived we would not have those cool pics of the SS in a donzi chasing LBJ.

but seriously with all the political theory a side . I always found it sad his young son saluting the casket as it went by that son later died to young too just like his dad.

[Ghost]

George, you are correct, that's what I meant. (The link I included is a transcript of an interview with RFK maybe 5 or 6 months after the assassination, in which he makes it clear that JFK never stopped moving forward in Vietnam, and never showed any intention of doing so. In fact, JFK gave every indication of willingness to do as much escalation as was needed. Right up until he was murdered.) So, while I suppose he might have altered courses eventually, the info I've seen suggests he never showed any signs of doing so.

Further, given all that had gone wrong already in his first term, and the huge turmoil that was coming to a head in the mid-late 60s, even if Kennedy had won a second term, it looks like his public image might only have gotten worse, not better. In many ways I think it was a difficult time for anything but, I suppose.

[gcarter]

And speaking of conspiracy theories.....
Once in Vietnam, JFK's supposed goal was to support the Catholic Christian Vietnamese president (we sometimes forget Vietnam was a French playground, and had spent over 100 years making it into a French Colony) at the expense of the Buddhist opposition.
The theory is they (the opposition political families) hired the Russians to set up the assasinatin.

[biggiefl]

My parents just came back from their honeymoon when that happened, I happened almost 6 years later but....I am still puzzled how anyone could vote for somebody that talked like that. Has anyone heard the Jackie-O tapes? What a racist, nasty, biotch she was....holy cow.

[scippy]

I think because the war actually raged on for close to 10 years after Dallas ....the
"what if" scenario could not have been any worse if JFK lived.....this is not to say
that he wasn't a hawk, he put boots on the ground in viet nam and mishandled the
bay of pigs fiasco. Missles in Cuba spoke of a different Kennedy temperment in the
end...........I agree, his legacy grew because of his death in Dallas and was not the
true measure of is legislative presidency.
I was just curious to the "what if" of a medical survival? ....the polictical survival was
aptly answered.
If there is only the neck shot and not the fatal shot....................does he recovery?
The bullet passes through soft tissue not vertebra......I think he recovers in Parkland.

[hardcrab]

I'm sorry to be so contrary, I understand the question, but, "what ifs" in a historical context are absurd.

"what if" an asteroid hit earth yesterday ?
"what if" Hitler died at birth ?
"what if" Dewey defeated Truman ?
"what if" Don Aronow stayed in real estate ?

"what if" is only useful when exploring a path forward IE:
engineering, medicine, social politics

looking back and daydreaming is a waste of time, strickly fantasy.

use of knowns to manipulate an outcome is good science

I'm really not trying to start any crap, but "what if" I didn't hit the "submit" button ?

[hardcrab]

and by the way,
I was in my first grade class at Lake Shore Elementary school when the announcement of his assasination came over the intercom. ......... :frown:
There was a few minutes of silence afterward.

[joseph m. hahnl]

This is the only John that was a true crime. People like John Lennon are the ones who truly add meaning, and enlightenment to the world.



I still miss John Lennon , and what music he would have contributed if he where still here. I don't particularly care or even think about JFK "ever"


http://www.usernetsite.com/film-tv/imagine-john-lennon-lyrics/john-lennon.jpg

[biggiefl]

Actually I doubt he would survive a neck shot. Having shot many rifles at many mediums, they do a LOT of damage. Only thing is the neck is small so it might just fly through. It is when the bullet slows is when it leaves carnage like through your head. Shoot a watermelon for instance and then shoot an orange. Cool thing to do is shoot a 2 litre bottle filled to the brim with water long ways(lay it down and shoot through the cap). The bullet slows down so quickly that the friction MELTS the bottle FLAT. When you pick up the pieces it is now flat, not round. I would hate to see what that shot did to his brain. probably looked like scrambled eggs....cooked.

[scippy]

The bullet didn't tumble through Kennedy's neck as it did after entering Connelly's wrist & ribs.
So the tissue trauma was minimal with no vertibra damage..........this is not to say he wouldn't
have bleed to death anyway.......I posted up a hypothetical question with (I admit) a peculier
curiosity and it turned into a "down with Kennedy" symposium....Silly stuff like comparing John's
really??...............Hardcrab, don't feel sorry to be contrary, your entitled to your smugness.

[joseph m. hahnl]

.......I posted up a hypothetical question with (I admit) a peculier
curiosity and it turned into a "down with Kennedy" symposium....Silly stuff like comparing John's
really??...


Sorry wasn't comparing John Lennon and JFK. I was just stating the fact that I thought John Lennon was just a better human being:yes:.

So to your question. The chances of living in todays medical science would be greater than the day and year he was shot. Close to 50 yrs is a very long time for technology of any sort. That wasn't to far off from the days of the Barber.
But I'm sure there were a lot worse coming out of Vietnam at the time and most of the skilled surgeons were on foreign soil doing just that. That leads to, was there really any competent surgeons available to administer treatment? Probably not.
That said, The wound it self may not of been fatal, but perhaps the medical treatment would have been inadequate

[gcarter]

Pete, if he'd lived, I think it would have made a gigantic difference to history, but not to his presidency. For instance, Reagan survived although it was touch and go for awhile. It made no difference to his time in office, at least I don't think so.
I think all you can do is conjecture about it:

We would have stayed in Vietnam, but the outcome would have been different in some ways because Johnson wouldn't have been at the helm.
If he had stayed on his legislative path, he may or may not have have been a one term president as he really wasn't all that popular. Remember he won the popular vote by less than 1%.
Then you have to conjecture how he wuld have handled the quickly blossoming social changes going on. He certainly wasn't as liberal as many of the other members of his party so some of those outcomes would have been different
Maybe we wouldn't have been saddled w/Johnson's Great Society program if Johnson hadn't been president.
Anyway, you get the idea.

[scippy]

I think at best, even if he survives he could not have governed any longer.........Now, some would say that was already occuring.
I was not so fixed on this part of it.................just that (with all the millions of observations and theories) no forensic ever said,
"Ya know, without his head getting blown up he probably would've survived, or maybe probably not..............I know, this morbid
fixation is over now, Thanks all for indulging me..

[Ghost]

Many years ago I read a book, Best Evidence, that focused heavily on the examination of his body and wounds. To indulge you a bit further, I'd say your question about the neck wound is well-founded. I don't think there is much too much doubt--I think he'd have survived that one. His spine wasn't taken out--both photos and his mobility in the Zapruder film show that. So, I'd think if his vocal chords weren't hit, I'd guess he might have fully recovered, or nearly so.

Apologies to anyone who is grossed out by this discussion. I'd think anyone who was would have already steered clear by now, but sorry if not.

[scippy]

Mike I remember reading something like that, but I can't recall exactly as they were being pumped out at a good pace.
I'm not a conspiracy proponent, but was always open minded to the moment when a factual thread would connect a link
to a bigger involvment, but it never happened ........I think everything peaked and smelled the worst when Oliver Stone
tried his best to dramatize the biggest lie..or better yet 20 bigger lies.
There were several years before the Zapruder film was released that you had no idea of how grotesque the moment was.
There's that extricable moment from when he comes from behind that sign that his head just seems to floats there for what
seems to be an eternity on super 8 film before the head shot..........at this moment I'm thinking,... "just push the guy over"
he'll fall from the cross hairs of a fatal shot and all we have to worry about is the neck shot ...............I think I'm way over
simplifying this!!!

[Ghost]

I've read a few books on the subject. By far the most useful was Norman Mailer's _Oswald's Tale_. If you haven't read it and you are interested, I think it will be worth your while.

[scippy]

I have that 700+ page book.....must dust it off........got it a few years after it's '95 relase
"Truly an Americam mystery!

[BUIZILLA]

are you guys feeling okay?

or was the turkey spiked?

[hardcrab]

"Was the turkey spiked"

Hmmmm ............... "What if ?" ...... :eek:

[silverghost]

Geeze~~~

And to think that I had always been taught that JFK was chryogenically frozen and placed next to Walt Disney ? ; )

[Ghost]

LOL, spiked, yes. Feeling ok, yes also. :)