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yeller
10-28-2011, 03:30 PM
As you may already know, I was planning to rebuild my 496HO with Raylar parts, but he sent me the wrong pistons, crank and missed sending a camshaft. I thought Ray was a good guy when he offered to take the parts back. I even helped to protected his name (on this site) when there were some negative comments about the transaction.

Well......I was wrong. Below is a copy of what I posted on OSO:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just thought I should warn anyone considering working with Raylar to be careful.

I placed the following order with Ray and had it shipped to Canada:
Forged crankshaft
Supercharger pistons/rings/rods (0.030)
Supercharger camshaft
Main/rod/cam bearings
Head gaskets
Valve springs
HV oil pump
1 - Main cap
Head bolts

When I went to pick it up, he had sent me a Cast Crank, the pistons were 10 over instead of 30 and he missed sending the camshaft altogether. This completely screwed up my build schedule (which was already very tight) and I would have been unable to complete the build within my timeframe. If I sent the wrong parts back for the correct ones, I'd be out the shipping costs as well as the paid taxes/duties to get the wrong parts into Canada. During my discussion with Ray, he offered to take all the parts back if I wanted. Seeing as I was going to be out the return costs either way, I thanked him for his offer and said I'd take him up on it.

So...I checked my Visa statement today and even though Ray received all the parts, he did not give me a full refund. He actually short-changed me over $500! When I called him, he said it was his restocking fee. I don't care what he calls it, when we talked, I never asked to return the parts...he offered it...and he never said there would be a restocking fee.

When I took Ray up on his offer, I thought he was a stand-up guy.....based on what I've seen discussed about him, I should have known better.

biggiefl
10-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Call your credit card...should not be a problem since he sent you the wrong parts.

Ed Donnelly
10-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Looks like he makes a profit no matter what he does..
Don't let him get away with it

He sounds like one class act.. Should change his company name to Screwmaster Marine...............Ed

Carl C
10-28-2011, 04:43 PM
[ QUOTE]Call your credit card...should not be a problem since he sent you the wrong parts.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like good advice. I'm sorry to hear this. I'm heading over to OSO now......:lightning

joseph m. hahnl
10-28-2011, 05:16 PM
Restock fees should be illegal. I bought a fuel pump from an E-Bay store.The thing broke within 30 seconds of putting it in. All the bull I had to go through to modify it to fit and plus the down time and not even to mention all the time I had into having to do the job twice. The Guy actually had the Gaul to charge me a restock fee for a defective part. Like he's going to sell it to some one else. Needless to say he did not get positive seller feed back from me. The new one he sent me is still sitting on a shelf in my basement.

Best thing you can do, is what you are, make people aware that he is not a stand up kind of guy.

So thanks for the heads up and you should definitely have the credit card company help you out if at all possible

Ghost
10-28-2011, 05:24 PM
I don't claim to know anything about what the law says, but common sense says a "restocking fee" is something that you pay when you change your mind about what you want to buy.

Never when a part is defective.

Never when you haven't changed your mind, still want what you paid for, and were given the WRONG part.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-28-2011, 08:21 PM
I will help spread the word about his unbelievable business ethics, and I know quite a few guys in the performance world who will want to know to stay away from him. Guys like him make me :mad:. Treating customers the way he did with you will cost him dearly. Bill

need for speed
10-28-2011, 09:08 PM
call your CC company... can the charge! up his..!

miike
10-28-2011, 10:33 PM
The Fair Credit Billing Act may not apply to international sales. Canadian banks may not be set up to process this transaction. Let us know what happens.

Carl C
10-28-2011, 10:47 PM
I'm anxiously awaiting Ray's explanation on OSO. Glad they are supporting you. The beware section there can be tough!

MOP
10-28-2011, 10:58 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Did not finish reading this post but!!! ED you too had a bad time by your guy, you went through enough at the 1K run too PO the Pope!!

It is important for all of us to get RECO's before we drop $$$

yeller
10-29-2011, 11:45 AM
I'm not sure if the CC call would work, because the parts were delivered.....just the wrong ones. I don't think the CC company will take sides on a "he said, she said" dispute. If he doesn't deliver on the refund I'll certainly give it a try


Ray did respond saying he will credit the remainder of the invoice, but it sounds as if I'll still be out the shipping. I'll hold of on saying any more unless he doesn't go through with his refund.

silverghost
10-29-2011, 01:16 PM
I don't know how any company owner can toally screw-up an expensive parts order so much.
Wrong size pistons, Cast vs Forged crank , forgotten cam etc and NOT make good on this order to Canada no less ?

How can Ray think that charging a re-stocking fee is the right thing to do~
When HE made all these errors himself ?

None of these errors was your fault .

Your Credit Card Company should make good on this.
If he makes too many of these same sort of "Errors"~~~
They will take his abilty to accept their Credit Card away from Raylar.

As you might remember~~~
I was afraid that this would happen when I first read your earlier post.
You DID back Ray up at that time.

He has had more than enough time to make things right by you here.

It's now time for you to take a tough stand .
Keep up the web pressure on the power boating forums & also with the Credit Card Co.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Excellent response. I am glad to hear that he sounds like a standup guy afterall. Bill

yeller
10-29-2011, 05:15 PM
Despite Ray's response, I haven't seen anything hit my Visa yet. I'm hoping he has made the refund and there is only a delay with Visa. Time will tell.

Fixx, that response isn't exactly how things transpired, but as long as Ray honors our agreement, I feel no need to get into it.



...and yes, Ghost, you did warn me.

Pismo
10-30-2011, 09:06 PM
I see the thread on OSO has already been deleted. Even if resolved completely why would they delete it. The event still occurred and should be known by potential future customers. Raylar must be an advertiser there.

Carl C
10-30-2011, 10:41 PM
[ QUOTE]Raylar must be an advertiser there.[/QUOTE]

They are.
And Yeller requested the delete.

Dr. David Fleming
10-31-2011, 11:19 AM
One of the great legal protections most folks are unaware of that concerns sales transactions is a hidden concept called "merchantability" or "suitiability for sale." This concept is the foundation of most sales transactions and prevents sellers from substituting unsuitable goods for what a buyer purchases. Items recieved must be as agreed upon. Sales transactions opting out of this protection are sold "as is." Visa and most credit cards will resolve such disputes in order to protect the wide usage of their credit instruments. Similar protections were always offered by the US Mail where fraud could be dealt with by the postals service if they handled the shipment "mail fraud." To charge a restocking fee for unmerchantable goods is a form of fraud. To defraud is a criminal act depending upon the amount of the sale is a felony.


Canadian Postal never offered this protection and the basic legal caution was always in play here "crevat emptor" let the buyer beware. Sometimes there is no subsititute for going there and or sending your legal representative to buy something in person. A concept getting lost to the internet generation."

yeller
10-31-2011, 03:11 PM
Carl you're correct, I did request it be deleted. Ray publicly said he refunded the money. I have not seen it on my Visa yet, but I assume there is a delay on Visa's side. I offered to delete the thread if Ray refunded the remainder of the invoice, and he requested I do so. Despite not seeing the money yet, I decided to take Ray at his word. If I don't see it hit my Visa by weeks end, then a new post will be started.

Dr. F, The US mail fraud protection is a great asset. As a Canadian, I have better protection from the US mail than Visa. That is why I usually get the supplier to request payment via US Post. As long as you can prove someone requested payment via US Post, then US Post will go after them for fraud if something goes wrong. I have used this in the past.

Didn't this time though. :bonk: Hopefully Ray will do as he said so I won't have to call Visa.

silverghost
10-31-2011, 04:46 PM
Yeller~
I believe any refund or credit to your VISA account should show-up immediately after the VISA sales vendor posted this credit refund . It should not take days~~~~

Could it be he was more concerned with you deleating your OSO thread about Raylar ?

Just thinking out loud here~~based on his past history with you on this bad parts transaction.

fegettes
10-31-2011, 05:53 PM
From my experience, when I charge some thing on my credit card, the charge is imediately posted on my account. However, when I am due a refund, it has taken several days, maybe a week, to show on my account.

Steve

Sweet Cheekz
10-31-2011, 08:27 PM
They can drag it out 10 days and frequently do

Parnell

BOBMX
10-31-2011, 09:27 PM
there is always a lag time on international transactions due to bank verification requirements. i work in the us and mexico and have cards on both sides of the pond. it takes over a week, sometimes 10-12 days, for things to post online even though the transactions have been proccessed. wait it out as i doubt with all the bs that he has endured over this that he would make a public declaration about truing up with you and not come through.

RockyS18
11-11-2011, 09:03 PM
Did you ever receive your refund? I'm holding back on buying my kit until he refunds you.

mattyboy
11-15-2011, 09:13 AM
would be nice for an update, these type of threads are only usefull if the true outcome is known. otherwise i feel they serve no purpose.

rocky perhaps a pm to yeller
might help

roadtrip se
11-15-2011, 09:49 AM
I have Yeller's contact info if you want to give him a call. PM me for it. I know he is a busy guy.

harbormaster
11-15-2011, 11:00 AM
Lets not take on a lynch mob mentality.

I see this happen too often on OSO. If you have never had dealings with Raylar, then you have no business speaking up. I appreciate the heads up from yeller.

RickSE
11-16-2011, 09:45 AM
Keep any records of him stating that he was going to refund all your money. I had a similar deal happen on a cleaning deposit for a rental in Hawaii. The guy clearly stated in writing that he was going to refund my deposit but never did. All I had to do was send his written response to my bank and they reversed the charge. They gave him 30 days to resolve it after his written response and when he didn't the charge was reversed. Good luck Yeller.

Pismo
11-16-2011, 10:10 AM
"would be nice for an update, these type of threads are only usefull if the true outcome is known. otherwise i feel they serve no purpose."

I agree.

yeller
11-27-2011, 03:58 PM
I have been unable to access this site for a few weeks now, so I was not able to give an update. I was surprised to see it up and running today. I actually thought it was gone for good. Nice to see it back up.

Anyways....yes, I did finally see the refund on my Visa. I appreciate Ray doing as he said.

Just so everyone has both sides of what happens, here is my side (in response to Ray's post).

>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
Ok people I am on here now and I would like to say that after a bit of an overheated conversation on the phone this morning with this customer. I cooled of and decided it was far better to go back, pull up all my emails.records and notes from phone call which I always make and study exactly what transipred on this order.
First the customer called many weeks before the actual order date of 8-17 and verbaly requested pricing on a long list of parts for a broken Mercruiser 496 he was going to be rebuilding. My notes show he asked for pricing on both a stock repalcement crankshaft and a forged replacement crankshaft, +.010" forged piston and rod set, engine bearings (std) size, HD/HV oil pump, supercharger camshaft, our iron head spring kit, our MLS head gaskets and our ARP head bolt kit for iron heads.
I did not hear back from this customer until he emailed in an order on 8-16 Tuesday evening after close of business and stated in the email he had to have all the parts by 8-19, 2 days later at a freight forwarder in Blaine, Wash. as well as needing a 496 engine single main cap so he could repair his block.\
>>>>>>>>
The above is true. I contacted Ray to determine costs on rebuilding my motor. I did at that time get costs for everything, including the camshaft. At that time, I asked about a forged crank. Ray said a forged crank wasn't necessary because the cast crank could handle 800hp. After getting the prices, I said "regardless, for $300 difference, I'd prefer a forged crank".
On 8-16 (Tuesday), I did not email, but called Ray to place an order. The order was as stated in my first post. I did ask if he could ship the parts Wednesday morning, so the parts would be able to get to Blaine, WA by 8-19 (Friday). His response was he could try and get it filled/shipped Wednesday, but he couldn't guarantee it would arrive by Friday if shipped regular ground. Fair enough. I asked him to do what he could. After taking all my info, I told him I'd send him an email for confirmation (which I did).

>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
This is where I at Raylar started my errors. I took out my original notes and quckly wrote up an order for the parts and I entered some parts incorrectly that did not agree with his final email which had the camshaft and a set of +.030" forged pistons that I entered as +.010" size and did not get the camshaft entered or shipped on the original invoice and I entered a stock crankshaft on the order and billed it at the stock crankshaft price not the forged crankshaft price.
The customer called on 8-26 and let me know that we had filled the order incorrectly and I offered to quick ship the correct parts as well as ship the camshaft and bill it as it was not placed on the original order. The customer stated since he did not now want to do his engine a week later, which I did not understand, and he did not want any of the parts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Parts arrived in Canada (I think) on 8-24. (There was a delay with my second shipper, who shipped from WA to Canada. That's why I was hoping to get the parts by the Friday. If they didn't arrive by the Friday, it would add close to a week to the shipping time due to the Canadian shippers schedule).
I called Ray to inform him that the order was wrong. I did NOT ask to return them. After some discussion with Ray, he OFFERED to take the parts back. I mentioned that it would still be costly for me because I would be out the shipping costs. He then OFFERED to pay for the return shipping. At this point I merely said I'd call him back, because I needed to decide what I wanted to do. About an hour later, I called Ray back and said I'd like to take him up on his offer of returning the parts. Was this the best decision??? Maybe not for some people, but I didn't want to rebuild the 496 and miss the remainder of the summer. The intent of redoing the 496 was to salvage the remainder of the boating summer. I really wanted the boat running for a fun-run that was coming up...as well as for RT's and Inferno's visit. I didn't want the correct parts shipped unless I received a full refund on the incorrect ones. This would have taken weeks...so I opted not to continue.

>>>>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
I told him I was sorry for the order mistakes and he could return the items on our UPS # and I gave him that number so he could return the complete list of items on our return shipping expense. About three weeks later the boxes of parts arrived at our shop in boxes that had been badly beat up by the multiple rehanding by the customer his forwared from US to Canada and UPS shipping out and back.
>>>>>>>>
If the boxes were badly damaged, it was due to Raylar's packing. I never opened any boxes. I shipped them back as shipped to me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
At that point I was a bit bothered by the fact that we had gone a good length to get him special parts and ship them very quickly to avoid rush (overnight -2 day)shipping costs to him and then a few days after receiving the parts he was stopping the whole engine rebuild for some reason. so I had our office bill a 10% restocking charge on the order which amounted to $320 plus the $143 we originally paid for the original shipping and handling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't know what the "special" parts were. I only ordered what Ray normally stocks. There was no "rush" shipping. Parts were sent UPS standard ground delivery. I stopped the build because Ray offered to take the parts back and I had lost faith in Raylar. I wasn't convinced the order would be corrected without me taking a "hit".

>>>>>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
I now realize that after reveiwing all the paperwork and facts it was Raylar who made the parts items mistakes and we should have filled the order correctly or not taken the order in the first place.
I am apologizing to this customer for our heated exchange ,our restocking charge and I will be had our office issue an addtional credit for the remainder of the order amount this afternoon.
There is no good excuse for our order entry, fill and omissions mistakes and I would just say that sometimes in an effort to quickly rush and fill a tight customer order need demand we can make mistakes and we did.
Was this an effort to skrew a customer, no! I did this investigation and credit this afternoon even before I had read his incensed thread her on OSO.
Are we perfect, are their always perfect orders and are there perfect customers, no, we all know the answer to those questions!
Raylar will always try its best to properly service our customers and be responsible for its actions and work as we always have for the last 10 years.
Glen, I am sorry for our mistakes with your order and I personally apologize to you for my conversation on the phone with you this morning! I will try harder in the future to make less mistakes and try not to rush orders and create bigger problems!


Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Last edited by Raylar : Today at 03:21 AM.
>>>>>>>>
I'm still not sure where there was a "rush" order. I merely asked if Ray could ship the next morning. Were is the harm in asking that? Many business ship "next day". I ordered Tuesday night and the parts were shipped Thursday, so there was no rush put on this order....unless he didn't have the parts in stock, (which was never mentioned to me).


>>>>>>>>Quote "Ray":
Glen:

The credit I put through yesterday afternoon before I read or heard about this post was for the full balance of the original invoice. You can delete the post anytime you like.
As for a comment about a colossal blunder. All I can say is that I am not afraid to admit I make mistakes and I am honest enough to take responsibility for my mistakes, if thats a colossal blunder then so be it! The boating world can always use a lot more honesty and the integrity to apologize and make wrong things right.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
>>>>>>>>
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but only Ray and I were on the phone conversations and know what was said (and how). I can appreciate Ray's apology, but I'm not fully convinced it would have happened without my post on OSO. If you are thinking of shopping at Raylar, then I wouldn't say don't. We both would probably do things differently if we could go back and this order would have turned out differently. In the end, the errors cost both Ray and I some $$. My order didn't work out, but that doesn't mean yours won't. I have had good success with companies that others have not. My view is: There is always risks when you shop mail-order. Hell, there are risks when you shop locally.....