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Tony
10-22-2011, 11:08 PM
Great win for MSU on a time-expired Hail Mary!

68426

Sweet Cheekz
10-22-2011, 11:12 PM
Awesome Game

Parnell

gold-n-rod
10-22-2011, 11:51 PM
I like this! :pimp:

Ghost
10-23-2011, 12:58 AM
Michigan State is a talented football team. Normally, I would be pleased to congratulate them for a great game.

(For one: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?59913-Congratulations-to-the-Spartans&highlight=Spartans)

I went to Michigan, and enjoy friendly rivalry with MSU and others in the Big 10 and elsewhere. Unlike many fans, I actually played for Michigan against varsities at Michigan State, Ohio State, Notre Dame, and others. I come from a tradition that likes to play hard and then join the opponent at the bar afterward. Good competition is the point. So again, I like to see a good game, and win or lose, I believe in congratulating the opponent, without whom there would be no contest and no fun.

Not this week. Many know but some don't that William Gholston of MSU was suspended for tonight's Wisconsin game. Which was certainly appropriate. And had that suspension come from MSU's coach D'Antonio, I'd have been happy for the Spartans tonight.

But instead, MSU's coach really let the school down. He refused to deal with Gholston's abhorrent behavior, and worse yet defended it. His comments were absurd and despicable.

"I wouldn't characterize it as dirty play," Dantonio said in an ESPN story. "I would characterize it as a game of reaction. Anybody who has ever played this game has to understand that we're not dealing in seconds. We're dealing in split-second decisions and reaction time…"


And for the record, I have not only watched but played in lots of games that got chippy. And I even was willing to excuse the punch that Gholston threw, one of his two personal fouls. Lots of things happen when guys are blocking, and I thought Gholston was being held, possibly by the facemask, during the play after which he threw a puch. The guy who hits back is usually the one caught, and maybe that's what happened. This sort of thing happens all the time, and it ISN'T necessarily dirty play, just because someone gets riled up and throws a punch.

But the attempt to rip Denard Robinson's head off IS TEXTBOOK DIRTY PLAY. And the late hit that went with it could go either way as far as dirty play or slow reaction. But the subsequent deliberate helmet twist is NO split-second reaction, and as such suggests the motivation for the late hit as well. It's absolutely disgusting.

And if MSU coach D'Antonio hadn't seen it yet, and had backed up his player in a postgame interview, only to change his mind when he saw the film, I could see that. But he saw the video, and then produced the ch1ckensh1t garbage you see quoted above. Pitiful. A disgrace to a great school and a great football tradition. D'Antonio defends the dirty play and the Big 10 has to step in to suspend Gholston. And those MSU fans with "FREEWILLY" painted on them should be ashamed. My guess is those guys don't play ball, they just like to get painted. Either way they are douchebag hypocrites. They would be (rightly) outraged if someone did that to one of their players.

For anyone who doubts me, I ask only that you view the actual play and judge for yourself. And ask yourself if you agree with coach D'Antonio that the huge helmet twist of a guy pinned down was a "split second reaction." And remember, this was AFTER a pause AFTER a late hit. As if, trying to deliberately rip his head off in real time would be okay.

Okay D'Antonio, what WOULD you consider "dirty play?"

Makes me want to vomit. And in particlar, it is disgraceful for D'Antonio, as the man responsible for team discipline, to tarnish the accomplishments of all the other players who went out and worked so hard, producing big wins the last few weeks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM18sAZRnIU

Just Say N20
10-23-2011, 07:50 AM
I have to agree with Mike on this one. When I watched that replay last week, I was amazed he wasn't immediately suspended. Late hit, I can understand, but what follows is disgusting at best. And then to have the coach defend it tells me a lot about the team. When I saw that I immediately thought of the sensei in the antagonist school in the Karate Kid.

Sweet Cheekz
10-23-2011, 08:40 AM
Cant disagree with anything you guys said It was embarrassing at best. I did enjoy yesterdays victory because that dickwad was suspended and couldnt play. Guess we can win without that type of behavior. As a side note, my wife who absolutely hates Michigan was very complimentary of all the Michigan players who were interviewed about the dirty play and shucked it off to intense football. In this case they and their coach way out classed the spartans even after the frsutration of losing four years in a row. well done

Parnell

Carl C
10-23-2011, 09:15 AM
My friends and I agreed that it did not look like a TD but MSU will take it! This will shoot them up in the rankings.

roadtrip se
10-23-2011, 10:40 AM
I don't condone dirty play.

I don't condone whining either. And this is all that has been coming out of Ann Arbor for the past ten days or so.
One thing that seems to be missed in all of the you tube snippets, is that there was dirty play on both sides of the ball,
especially during the punching interlude.

Again, I don't condone dirty play. The head twist was ridiculous.

But enough already. Michigan got beat, and for the fourth time in four years, by MSU.

I truly enjoyed the game last night. I wonder how Michigan would have done? I do like what the new coach is doing with the
team, but there is a lot more to be done. And you didn't hear him whining, which set the tone for his team, but obviously not
the fan base.

Time to move on, already.

Ghost
10-23-2011, 10:48 AM
Good to hear I wasn't the only one who didn't like it. And I completely agree, the team did rise up and win a BIG one without the jerk--hat's off to them for that.

It's funny Carl--watching the end of last night's game, I thought the ball probably broke the plane. Was there a lot of wind or something? The goal line camera was so jumpy it was hard to make sense of what you were seeing. It looked to me like the ball almost HAD to break the plane when he twisted, but between the camera bouncing around and the ball being out of sight at the time it was probably furthest forward, I thought there was a good chance they wouldn't overturn the call from the field. But my sense was they actually scored.

Something that was in my head since Wisconsin started taking timeouts during the last drive told me MSU would find a way in regulation. I understood Bielema's thinking, but it felt like he was playing with fire.

Ghost
10-23-2011, 11:04 AM
Todd, for the record, I think I have shown myself to be consistently gracious to teams who outplay Michigan. Year in, year out. But there's a difference between a rough or chippy game and people who wrench necks, break fingers, or gouge eyes in a pile after a play. As I said, as disgusting as it was, I understand what happened on the field. My gripe is with D'Antonio's bush-league dishonesty about it.

There are plenty of embarassing Michigan fans (not unlike many other teams) who whine all the time when their team loses. I don't. I go out of my way to put on a Michigan t-shirt and wear it proudly after they lose. (The Rodriguez era was painful. Not because of the losses, but because HE was a less-than-upstanding guy and a major whiner.) And I'm not even complaining that we should have won or any of that nonsense. State outplayed us again this year.

This event was different. The point of my note is that where I would normally be cheering State on as the guys who bested us and then produced another great win (and still would have if he'd condemned Gholston's behavior as something MSU won't tolerate), D'Antonio needlessly brought shame on an extremely good MSU team that deserves better from him. When I heard Gholston was suspended, I thought "cool, they did the right thing. Good for them, good for the rivalry, good for sportsmanship." Then last night, I heard the Big 10 did it despite D'Antonio.

EDIT 1: And BTW, it's good to see so many state fans were not pleased by the incident. Down here, there's not a lot of MSU base for feedback. We've all been there, when some jerk on our team (or a jerk coach like Rodriguez) behaves badly. William Campbell was a problem for us last year. Seems that Brady has somehow made it clear that won't fly any more. Nothing but respect for those who call them as they are, regardless of which team they're on. A few teams I played on had hacks, and there was nothing more annoying. Thankfully, the coaches usually benched them.

EDIT 2: As for your question about Michigan, while I hope not and think it unlikely, the table could run us the rest of the year. Hoke's made great strides, but I agree the team's got a long way to go and a very tough schedule going forward. We're still too one-dimensional on O, and I think Wisconsin's big line will simply be able to push our D back. It's almost impossible to beat a team that can run on you consistently, and that's what I think will be the biggest challenge. By contrast, State's got a GREAT run defense (#1 in the nation I think?), and that made it possible for them to beat a very strong Wisconsin team.

Tony
10-23-2011, 09:42 PM
It was an extremely physical game, fairly even for the first half, with "chippyness" displayed by both squads. In the second half, though, State started pressuring Robinson and he got very rattled. Our d-line totally dominated their o-line, and we built momentum from there.

Gholston was likely suspended for the head twist which was, admittedly, inexcusable. The punch was retaliation for being held down by the facemask, which as mentioned usually gets caught. What I found most amusing about the punch was the body language of U-M's #77 - who hung his head, drooped his shoulders, and kind of sulked away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhbZoU4w-Xo
Almost like an attitudinal microcosm of the way the Wolvys as a whole were being manhandled by MSU.

Credit to Brady Hoke, and several U-M players, who downplayed the "playing dirty" allegations. Denard Robinson said, "It's football, and football is a dirty game." Jordan Kovacs said, "They were definitely more physical. They pounded us. They beat us up."

After the game MSU's defensive coordinator Pat Narduzzi was asked about the unnecessary roughness penalties. He responded, "We try to play 60 minutes unnecessarily rough."

I loved the quote, but of course in today's politically correct era Narduzzi was "admonished" by the MSU AD for it - because the press took it to mean he teaches the kids to to "play dirty".

I say BS. Football is a violent sport, whose primary intent is to collide aggressively with the opponent. Narduzzi was proud of his defense's physical domination. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

This in-state rivalry, especially, is played with intense emotions. Flash back to Ann Arbor in 2006, when Lamarr Woodley pile-drived Drew Stanton into the turf (penalized for it, also) and separated his shoulder. Much to the delight of the U-M student section, I might add, who cheered wildly with glee.

Lastly, to disparage Dantonio is a mistake. I was 12 rows behind the Spartan bench, and I can tell you for certain that Coach Dantonio was not happy about either of those penalties. He is a classy, ethical coach who has MSU back on track.

Oh, by the way...in Saturday's win versus Wisconsin MSU had a grand total of zero penalties.

Ghost
10-24-2011, 05:42 AM
EDIT: Okay, that's long enough for the full rant to be up. I will now cut to the Cliff's Notes and leave it.

Disclaimer: This post is not about dirty play, not about MSU, and not about D'Antonio. I said my peace about those things already, and was pleased and not in the least surprised that folks agreed in large measure. Even if some thought it was whining. :) I won't even argue with that, to an extent it undeniably was. As someone who would normally have chimed in with serious congratulations on a big, gutsy upset win on a hail-Mary on national TV, I simply felt compelled to explain why I wasn't doing so this time.

I have no intention of beating the dead horse. And for any who do read this, I apologize that inherently it cannot avoid referring to some of the stuff we already covered. I've tried to minimize that and focus only on exposing the illogic of what was just said. In short, this post is 100% about a few bits of Tony's pointed response above that struck me as particularly self-contradictory. Nothing more.



Gholston was likely suspended for the head twist which was, admittedly, inexcusable.


"I wouldn't characterize it as dirty play," Dantonio said in an ESPN story. "I would characterize it as a game of reaction. Anybody who has ever played this game has to understand that we're not dealing in seconds. We're dealing in split-second decisions and reaction time…"



He is a classy, ethical coach...

You are absolutely right that it was inexcusable. Which is why D'Antonio's comment above is clearly bull$hit. Your own true statement about it being inexcusable is irreconcilable with D'Antonio's statement that excuses it. Kudos to you for that, and shame on him.



I was 12 rows behind the Spartan bench, and I can tell you for certain that Coach Dantonio was not happy about either of those penalties.

This sentence becomes truly hilarious viewed alongside D'Antonio's ESPN statement. After all, according to him it was just a "split-second reaction" and it wasn't "dirty play." So, why was he SO unhappy then? Wouldn't be fair to be so mad at Gholston if it was just a bang-bang play. You've attempted to imply he's a "classy and ethical" guy because he was so pissed about the serious misbehavior flagged as personal fouls. Which I get. I suspect you are right about why he was very angry (about the helmet twist in particular because it wasn't bang-bang and was so dirty). But that's irreconcilable with his statement to ESPN that excused those actions as other than serious misbehavior. So, we have a mix. If you're right, he's a good enough guy to be outraged at the inexcusable conduct. But he seriously weaseled when speaking to ESPN about it, and came up short in disciplining his player.



to disparage Dantonio is a mistake... ...He is a classy, ethical coach who has MSU back on track.


Disparage - vt, to bring reproach or discredit upon

1. I didn't disparage him. He disparaged himself.
2. Saying I made a mistake in pointing it out as such out is just silly. I criticized a specific statement and showed why it was bull$hit. You ignored the specifics of my criticism, and then made a wholly unsupported general statement to the contrary. You didn't furnish any evidence of his being "classy" or "ethical," save for how mad he got about the penalties, which makes my point about his weasel-ly nonsense statement to ESPN. You didn't try to explain why he's a good guy overall despite the specific missteps I criticized. Which might well be the case and a case I'd hear, but not a case you made.

And by the way, I never extrapolated to claim his bogus statement to ESPN made him the antiChrist. I just pointed it out for the nonsense that it is. So, let's not deny basic logic or gloss over simple facts. If you want to argue he's a better guy than his statement, fine, but don't deny the simple truth about that statement. Or if you do, please use something other than generalized implicit circular reasoning to do it.

Tony
10-24-2011, 07:03 PM
LOL, ghost...major deja vu!

The only thing missing from your exceedingly long post is a mention of your favorite phrase, “intellectual honesty”. Of course it could be in there somewhere, and I may have missed it.

You may (or may not) have noticed that I’ve disengaged from you and your posts for the last several years. The above response perfectly illustrates why.

The meticulous micro-analysis, the bold-printed phrases, the continuous questioning, the linked definitions, the obscure quotes, the “reply with” dissections, the abstruse logic, the condescending tone, the arcane connections...you sure must have a lot of time on your hands to formulate such elaborate ramblings.

When I sent you a politely worded PM explaining why I had grown weary of reading your diatribes, and you replied with a 26 paragraph bluster, I knew I had made the right decision to be done with you!

We're talkin' about football, for cryin' out loud...not the economy, or world hunger, or the possibility of life on other planets, or where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.

It’s a fockin’ internet chat forum, ghost, not an interpretation of a supreme court case. Who died and made you Mr. Last Word? Which, next, begs the question...”Are you long-winded in person?”

Although I'll probably read your inevitable reply with amusement (unless it’s another 60,000 words!) this is my last word in this thread.

Peace out!

Almost my last word. Here are a few more:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111024/OPINION03/110240329/1132/sports0202/Win-shows-Michigan-State-can-play-with-discipline

bluster - transitive verb
1 : to utter with noisy self-assertiveness

ramble - intransitive verb
2 : to talk or write in a desultory or long-winded wandering fashion

condescend - intransitive verb
2 : to assume an air of superiority

Ghost
10-24-2011, 07:08 PM
LOL, once again, arguing against the person, the delivery, the font, ANYTHING but the point being made.

Yes, we were talking about football and not some graver concern. All the more reason to be able to admit a coach said something obviously stupid and untrue. It costs you nothing to be honest about that.

Just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get him. Likewise, just because someone is condescended to doesn't mean he's not acting like an idiot. Did I condescend? Absolutely I did. In fact, I condescended...wait for it...right back at you. As you said, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And hey, look. I just agreed with you. I admitted I condescended to you. Why? Because it's true. It cost me nothing. Didn't hurt a bit. You should try it. :)

When someone says "when person X said Y he was telling a lie" a sensible person contradicts it by demonstrating the truth of statement Y. He doesn't attempt to contradict it by saying "person X is honest." Chairman Mao might, but a sensible person doesn't. It's implicitly circular reasoning.

Speaking of which, you might want to take stock of what "begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)" actually means. No matter how much you may detest me, take one truly friendly tip and just quit using the phrase. Almost nobody knows what it really means, and almost no one should ever say it. But in the company of anyone who does, it comes off like "strategery." ("Raises the question" is what you're looking for. TOTALLY different meaning.)

Honestly, one thing I've learned over our discussions is I should not be surprised if you don't understand me. And yet, if we run into each other at an event, there's a good chance we just laugh over a few beers. Far bigger things to worry about in the real world, I agree. And, this medium lends itself well to misunderstanding and exaggerated inferences of mal intent. And hey, at least you have a Duoprop.