Water pump for 302 HM

[CL JesseJames]

Does any one (Evil / Mattyboy or others) happen to know a make and model number and availibility for the origional Holman Moody water pump on a 1969 302 motor. Impeller part number may help also. Mine is making noise. It is the pump between four bolt plate and alt to crank pulley shown in many posts here.

Thanks

[mattyboy]

jabsco pump part no. 11850-80, no longer available i just had mine rebuilt but it still leaks. i'll see if i have the rebuild kit part no. around.

[gcarter]

These Johnson pumps from Chamberlain are available for Fords;

http://www.marineexhaustmanifolds.com/raw-water-pumps.htm

It's always nice to have a new pump.

[MOP]

If you go with a Johnson or similar pump and are raw water cooled use the small block pump, the big block pump produces to much volume and pressure. You will have to add a pressure relief valve to get rid of the excess, the larger volume takes away some top speed and will over time cause head gasket leaks on a raw setup. I lost 1-1/2 mph switching from the belt pump which was under driven, the BB crank pump puts too much water into the exhaust causing back pressure.

[mattyboy]

the johnsons are not direct replacements, the holman moody pump used a 6 screw cover that held it to the bracket. the backet holds the pump in on the pulley.
the pulley has teeth that meesh with the pump's shaft, the johnson's look to be bolted to the pulley . the other consideration is the alt. mounts to the same bracket. the pumps that have the inlet and outlet side by side will require some additional plumbing as well the holman moody pump has a top outlet at 12 o'clock and a bottom inlet at 7 o'clock. .
haven't found the bill for the rebuild yet still looking.

[gcarter]

Yes Matty, the set up would have to change.
When we were working on VonKamps 18, the front of the engine was clean w/individual brackets and pretty much modernizes the engine installation.
I suppose it boils down to how true you want to be to the original.

[mattyboy]

yes they could be adapted. like to see a pic of the changes and what model pump. might need to take that road shortly.

[gcarter]

I never took a picture, but Barry had to buy a different balancer as there were about four different ones available for that engine. I think it was no more than the luck of the draw in parts.
Next, he simply boughht nice polished billet hot rod mounting brackets.
It was a very attractive set up.
Of course he bought the appropriate stabilizing bracket for the pump.

[mattyboy]

I had looked at the shiney hot rod stuff but was worried about the bolt patterns. that H/M front motor mount bracket covers up the entire front of the motor. If the pump was not mounted to the bracket, the alt. could be mounted with a hardened bolt and some spacers. then all you would have to figure out is a bracket for the pump.

[gcarter]

Barry had different engine mounts, but they were the originals.

[CL JesseJames]

Thanks for the info guys. My pump looks same as your picture Matty. I am going to try to keep original. A year or so ago it was makeing the same noise and I had someone else replace the impeller assuming that was it. The noise went away till now. The pump is not bolted to Alt pully? Just the six screws on the bracket? Mine sounds like the bearing is not happy.

[gcarter]

FWIW, this is a picture of Barry's engine set in the hull but not installed.
But those were the original mounts.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29730&d=1182708661

[mattyboy]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]
Thanks for the info guys. My pump looks same as your picture Matty. I am going to try to keep original. A year or so ago it was makeing the same noise and I had someone else replace the impeller assuming that was it. The noise went away till now. The pump is not bolted to Alt pully? Just the six screws on the bracket? Mine sounds like the bearing is not happy.

{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

CL,

yes the pump is attached to the bracket by the 6 brass screws you see in my pics. the screws go thru the bracket and back cover of the pump and thread into the pump body . when sinched up tight it holds the pump onto the bracket. the bracket is held onto the front motor cover/mount and pulley by the 4 bolts on the outside. one of the bolts on the starboard side acts as the bottom mount for the Alt. the previous owner also added power steering and used one of the port side bolts as the bottom mount for the PS pump but I made some mods and have the PS pump hung on it's own.

the replacement pump from jabsco was really expensive around 800 bucks if i remember correctly. I'll check tonight when i get home for the rebuild kit number.


george barry's boat was probably an original 289 interceptor not a holman moody . all of the H/M windsors i have seen have that front motor mount

[mattyboy]

here are 2 more pics of the pump. showing how it attaches to the bracket and also the teeth. remember that there is a star shaped hard rubber bushing that keeps the teeth on the pulley from grinding on the teeth on the pump.

[MOP]

Matty I know it would take away from the originality but it would clean up the front of the engine nicely, it would also make changing impellers a dream by comparison.

[Gary S]

up until a couple of years ago you could get anything for your pump except the front end cover. try Depco pump http://www.depcopump.com/contact.htm The coupler is called a lovejoy but Holman Moody made ? their own copy out of aluminum which in my case tore up on the pump side. I bought a lovejoy and had a machine shop cut it down and make a new keyway. Bearing is a standard bearing available at a bearing supply,but you'll need to remove it to get the number off it. Here are some Jabsco part #'s

Rotary seal 96080-0080
Impeller 1210-0001
Bearing 92600-0070
Bearing seal 93000-0090
Main shaft 11977-0010
Wearplate 8493-0000

[Gary S]

68144 I got this from Jabsco many years ago,all part #'s seem current except the end cover.You could possibly make one if needed

[mattyboy]

gary, great info thanks

mop, i'm not really sure how another crank driven pump with a custom or home made bracket is going to clean up the front of my motor. i won't be able to use and off the shelf bracket that mounts to the block. the h/m front mount covers the block which is an inch to inch and a half behind it.

[MOP]

Matty I am pretty sure shortening the the bracket the thickness of the HM mounting plate would be the only hassle, if you want to retain the original look then the length of the new pump comes into play. I can grab one off the shelf and give you that dimension, that may help with your thoughts.

Phil

[mattyboy]

mop you lost me there?????? thickness of the pump bracket or the front mounting plate?

[CL JesseJames]

Matty The hard rubber star bushing you mentioned, is it attached to the pulley or is it just set in there? My pump is moveing water fine and not leaking but making a grinding sound which I thought was the pump bearing. Any photos of this star shaped bushing?

Chris

[mattyboy]

CL,

I'll check at home for a pic of the bushing.

it is just set in there.

here are pics I have right now one shows the imprint of the bushing and the teeth from the pulley left on the teeth of the pump. the other shows the ends of the busing between the two sets of teeth. the teeth are gloss black and the bushing is the flat black you see.
the pic of the pulley shows the teeth on the pulley yours should be all one piece and a single pulley . they modified mine and made it work on a 3 slot pulley.

hope that helps I'll look for better pics

[Gary S]

Here you are,if you are missing it it will be noisey and could damage the drive. The side with the indent goes toward the pump,the pump shaft sticks out of the drive.

6815268153

[Gary S]

They are called spiders or inserts. Mine is 2 1/4" in diameter and 7/16" thick. I got an extra at a farm store they are used on all kinds of pumps. Ask by brand name Lovejoy. Just found the part # L-090N or L-095N here is one who says they have them,just googled them have no idea who they are. http://www.fremontindustrialsupply.com/servlet/the-2765/lovejoy-martin-woods-flexible/Detail

[MOP]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Matty once the pump is bolted in place then you would need to modify the support brackets length, it would be a simple operation. The bracket utilizes two existing block bolt holes, the bracket has a bit of room for error as to the measurement. Mine has about 3/16" around the bushing so really all you need to be is close, it does not bolt tightly to the pump it is just there to stabilize it. I have seen several without the bracket like MD's, he relied on the stiffness of the hoses for a couple of seasons.

[CL JesseJames]

Matty and Gary Great info! Pics really help. Thanks. I have just been eyeballing it (hard to do) so far and glad to have the background details before I start taking things apart. Chris

[mattyboy]

the areas of concern i would have

1. the front plate puts the new pump bracket in question, it would seem to me that the bracket would need to be shortened the pre-made brackets i have seen have the bolt plate then a bent loop to hold stabilize the pump. so a custom bracket would need to cause the attachment point is now 1-2 inches further out then stock.

2.clearance from the inlet outlet hoses and bracket to the alt. and ps belt

3. length of the pump and clearance from the pump body and hoses to the outer edge of the pulley. this is not a pcm motor or indmar,volvo or omc most of which use a different pulley system. this is a one of a kind creation from a guy out on the island. the original single slot HM pulley was modified by welding another double pulley to it. this was done to add power steering which a custom bracket was made to allow the ps pump to fit in front of the HM front mount.

4. the HM front mount is the sticking point. I don't really care about mechanical originality as much as turn key reliability . up until the point where the originality of the hull is concerned. this boat is extremely solid and is the best surviving original benchseat hull on the planet. my point being the front mount dictates where the motor mounts are, and are an integral part of the cooling system. I could remove the plate and use a common ford marine pump a cooling system then figure out how to support the front of the motor. I can assure you I am not drilling any new holes in the stringers on this boat.

again now having to re-engineer everything i'm not sure how that is going to clean up the front of the motor?

[CL JesseJames]

Thanks for your help and photos.

I pulled the pump last weekend and found that the spider was missing completely. It looks as if the last time I took the boat to the mechanic to have the pump and impeller looked at, the spider fell out as they were reinstalling the pump. At that time I had found what I thought was the old impeller in the bilge. In looking at it now I guess I should have realized it could not have been an impeller as it has some of the Holman Moody blue paint on it.

The teeth on the pump and pulley have a small amount of wear from the spider being missing for a few hours run time. I assume that is what was causing the grinding I was hearing. The pump shaft turns freely and does not seem to have any slop in it. Should I reinstall the pump with the spider in place or should I take it apart to look at the shaft and bearing?

Thanks

Chris

[silverghost]

If the pump as installed without the drive spider I suspect that is where your grinding noise was coming from.
Metal
to metal contact on those drive spline gears.

If you really want to check-out the bearings pull the pump & remove the cover & impeller and then you will be abe to rotate the pump's shaft to see how smooth the bearings really are.

I suspect your pump is OK .