View Full Version : What boat?

09-15-2011, 08:55 PM
The bh 16 may be comming apart. An the question rises what could I put this drivetrain in? 415ci sbc aprox. 475 hp @ the crank maited to a blackhawk drive with 30" props. The boat that it goes in needs to run rough water, and get as close to 80mph as possible. Some of my first thoughts would be a retired svl race boat like a Extreme or Phantom. Lite boats, stepped hulls, could one of these be fast enough? Some of my other choices would be a 24 stepped Superboat or their 30 y2k. Another was a 21 Sutphen, 20 Cig, or possibly a 21 mtr Cougar or Eliminator 21 daytona. The last two would run but rough water? Last tought was to sell engine, buy 22 classic and build a 540 bbc 675 or so hp and bolt on the bh. Anyother ideas or thoughts would be great.

Greg Guimond
09-15-2011, 09:06 PM
Your all over the board there Younger with hulls. Is rough water more important then top speed? Forget a Superboat 24 or 30 with a SBC.

09-16-2011, 10:11 AM
Right now considering any and all boats. Greg do you have any time in either the 24 or y2k. John Coen has said that the 24 will run in the high 60's with a 300hp sbc and the y2k will hit low 70's with a 496ho. The sb I have is not your average rebuilt truck engine. The 475hp is on the conservitive side of things. I have thought that going to a more modern design that has stepped hull or pad would possibly put me in a larger performance hull and still keep some of the speed I need. Also I like doing things a little different, just like the 16 BH. I have met the goals that I wanted to with the 16 and time to move on. Please if you have any +/- on the Superboat please inform. Hell I have thought of even putting the 415 in a Jersey skiff and buzzzzzing the crap out of it!

Greg Guimond
09-16-2011, 11:07 AM
I owned and drove a 24, was not that impressed with the overall ride an handling but Coen made a variety of mods over the years. I also owned and drove a 21 Super. I guess the first thing is to figure out what you want the overall length to be and do you want a sit down or stand up hull. From there the options start to present themselves.

09-16-2011, 12:11 PM
Greg I have only seen 1 Superboat up this way it was a 30 y2k, lots of 24/7 hulls that are similar to the SB 24. A fellow I know has a 26 martini that runs 113mph gps wich is similar to the SB. The info that I have read about the Superboats implied that they were fairly fast with conservitive hp. Correct me if I am wrong. Was yours o/b or i/o? What speed and what year hull? I'm pretty loose with my requirments but, ideally the boat needs to run 2/3 footers, be in the 80+ mph range with my power and be safe. Have you had good luck with your o/b merc's? I have also thought if I moved the powertrain I would go 21-24 skater route. My last o/b was a B class pickle hydro running a merc 25 hurricane on quicky mid and lower. So to say the least old tech. My wife wants a 22 with a 540 so we will see.

09-16-2011, 12:12 PM
I think you would be surprised at the ride in the 20' Cigarette in rough water - great boat - :yes:. As far as speed, I don't know since they take some power to run the relatively heavy 24 degree hull. I loved the one I used to have. The 21 Daytona would get your best speed, but it is not a good choice for a rough water boat. I have not run the other hulls you mentioned. Bill

Greg Guimond
09-16-2011, 01:44 PM
One thing I would need some insight into is can you put that BH drive into just about any hull and be happy with the handling dynamics. This I have zero experience with but I would assume for example that running the BH on a 25 degree deadrise V like the Martini 25 ( I believe the 26 your refer to going 113 is actually 25' like Bill's) would not be a good match but I have no idea. How does a Martini 25 get a 113 GPS reading without a surface drive? It might be one of the best 25 footers ever designed.

On the Cigarette 21 I/O, Bill did that hull have any small pad at the end of the 24 degree V Bill?

09-16-2011, 01:56 PM
On the Cigarette 21 I/O, Bill did that hull have any small pad at the end of the 24 degree V Bill?


I too would like to see a 25' Martini doing even 100MPH - :eek!:
The 1975 20' Cigarette I ran for a few years had a rounded V like the Donzis. I had a BBC making around 450HP and I believe 65MPH was what it ran with the TRS drive. It would really take the waves well. Bill

Greg Guimond
09-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Thanks Bill, that is kinda what I thought. Here is a pic of what I believe to be a Cig 20 transom. I am not so sure that this bottom design would work well with a BH drive but again I have zero BH experience so someone else would need to chime in on that aspect.

Younger, I think your looking for a 23 footer with at least 22 degree V and better yet 24 degree with a small pad, no more then say 7". Make it a sit down hull and keep the beam narrow and you will easily get 80mph and still have all the benefits of the plush ride. The taller the freeboard, the more wind you have to push remember and 80 will become tougher and tougher. I think 24' is not needed so I'll say less then 24' or greater then 22'. There I just spent your money LOL

09-16-2011, 02:18 PM
The Martini has a blown bbc made by Ferrara hooked to a # 6 drive, a set of massive tabs. At around a hundred it gets silly but drive through and settles on the tabs and tops at 113 gps all day. The motor makes huge power.

09-16-2011, 03:03 PM
The Martini has a blown bbc made by Ferrara hooked to a # 6 drive, a set of massive tabs. At around a hundred it gets silly but drive through and settles on the tabs and tops at 113 gps all day. The motor makes huge power.


Wow! What an awesome setup. I would sure like to see a video or a few pictures of that Martini. Bill

Greg Guimond
09-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Blower motor and a #6 ..........now I buy 113. It is amazing how much extra gunnel and deck height creates resistance and the Martini 25 is a true blue water hull as Bill can now attest to. I'm betting 800HP range to get 113?

Younger, aren't you up in Canada West? I have to believe you would have a ton of options out of California region in the < 24' range. Now finding the deadrise needed may be a little tougher in that neck of the woods.

09-16-2011, 11:32 PM
Greg I'm located in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. I am located 45 min north of Watertown NY. Most of my boating is on the St. Lawerance, Lake Ontario, and the Big Rideau Lake. All these waters can be unfriendly at times. When you mention west coast the boat that pops to mind would be a Schaida mini offshore.

Greg Guimond
09-16-2011, 11:42 PM
Ok did not realize Canada East. In that case California boats may be tougher to make sense of. I'm not sure what you mean by Schiada Mini Offshore, I never was aware of that model. I would suggest a Howard 220 Offshore. If you find one that is 1997 or later they added a pad. That boat is 22'4" and runs 68mph with a 385HP BBC and Bravo even though it is an 8' beam. It is 22 degree deadrise but the bow entry deadrise is very steep. You could also look for a Warlock 23 World Class Offshore. That boat is 23'6" and is a no pad, 24 degree V with a 6'6" beam so the bugger hauls the mail. The Crusader on the board is the early version of that hull. Very dry hull with the strakes running right up to the bow which knocks down the water in heavy 3-4 foot rollers. Last from the west coast would be a Vaughn 22. This hull took the Schiada 24 and splashed it so the bow entry deadrise is 50 degrees and hardcore for heavy water. All of these boats are sitdown boats that will run with much bigger 24x7 hulls in heavy water and be a lot faster when things flatten out. All 80+ with your power easily.

Before your retire that 16 BH be sure to clock a high speed run. I'm pretty sure you will break 85.

Greg Guimond
09-17-2011, 12:36 AM
All of the above hulls will snack on 22 Classics and 24 Superboats...................

09-17-2011, 09:50 AM
I know the bh 16 will break the 85mph mark but not with anyone I know in it! If this hull sells, I'm looking for a hull that will run and be safe.

Greg Guimond
09-17-2011, 02:57 PM
Here is a picture of a Vaughn 22 that I almost brought in from CA last year. That would be a great hull for that powerplant of yours.........good luck with whatever you end up doing. Shame to see a BH 16 parted out :frown:

09-18-2011, 12:45 PM
I agree with many of the suggestions. For rough conditions I would also consider a 24' Avanti or Velocity. The Avanti has a narrower beam like 7'. I would NOT consider a 24' Baja as they do not like to go over 70, 80 would be dangerous. A 25' Checkmate or 26' Hustler might be good depending on weight. I think the Hustler did 70's with a 415 502.

09-18-2011, 05:11 PM
Doesn't the blackhawk have a couple of requirements to work with the hull properly? I thought it likes a high X being a surfacing drive. And the tricky part is that it needs a hull that's built to run properly with the BH, which typically involved a bit more rocker.

I'd just hate to see you grab a hull that'll be a great home for you motor, but might take major work and experimentation to make the drive work properly. Keep in mind that those props aren't exactly off the shelf parts these days either.

Good luck finding the right home for that hardware.

Greg Guimond
09-18-2011, 07:42 PM
Precisely what I was thinking, it is no slam dunk. I also think that once you get to a 24 foot length the chance of 80 gps is pretty slim, just too much weight and wind resistance. 22's and 23's should be a perfect fit for the motor, the intended waters, and the speed goal.

This might be a nice fit for the BH and younger..................

09-18-2011, 08:04 PM
20 foot Cigarette
22 foot Donzi
21 foot Superboat
20 foot Sutphen
22 foot Velocity
23 foot Warlock-big as I would go

Greg Guimond
09-19-2011, 03:46 AM
Don't forget the Howard 220 Offshore, by far one of the "biggest" 22's out there and if you find it in 1997 or later they added a pad to the 22 degree deadrise V. The really cool thing is the 50 degree bow entry, drop the snout and let her eat :smash:

09-19-2011, 01:08 PM
We will have to see what happens with the pending deal. The reason that the bh requires rocker is to provide bow lift. Lets not forget that the bh was intended for the 21-26 foot boats, so the longer the boat the less leverage the drive has. Considering it is a surface drive even less leverage than a standard x-dim. bravo. My x is low by about an inch, but being a short boat it will hang the bow no prob with very little trim. Lots of good sugestions, here in Canada it is hard for a fella to come across alot of these boats they just never come into the country in numbers. I think the best for me will be a 22 classic and either put a blower on the 415 or build a bbc. That way my wife won't have to change the donzi tat!

09-19-2011, 01:23 PM
what about a Minx? or the new sutphen would be a a rocket with that combo. both give a more in the boat feel

09-19-2011, 01:32 PM
Norm, if you get a Howard, I must have a ride. I really like those boats.


09-19-2011, 04:49 PM
Ken how about you sell me that beautiful yellow 22. I'll put the 540 monster in it that it needs and then I will give you that ride!!!!!!!!!!!!

09-19-2011, 06:41 PM
If you decide to go a different route,I would be interested in the Blackhawk drive.

Greg Guimond
09-19-2011, 07:59 PM
Younger, I'm going to have to get my 16 to either LA or Miami so if you find something in those locations do let me know. Also I heard on the grapevine that there may be an East Coast Warlock 23 Offshore coming up for sale with an Alpha drive but no power if that is at all of interest. 23'6 and 6'6" beam with a 24 degree V. Your SBC would be a great fit for that hull with the narrow beam.

09-20-2011, 07:01 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]
I would have some 'splainin' to do.

A 540 short deck would be nice though.


09-20-2011, 07:26 AM
friend of mine had a 23 warlock and it was a great rough water boat, he built up a 540 for it and couldn't break 80 was pushing 75 ish

real nice to ride in however it is still around and the guys who bought it i think are trying to sell it, or they were at the beginning of the year was always on kijiji called a warlock-donzi

Norm, email me for details on boat if you go that way


Greg Guimond
09-20-2011, 09:06 AM
There were a few versions of the Warlock. The early boats were Team Warlock's and you could get either a 23 World Class "Offshore" or a 23 World Class "Euro". The hull itself was identical on both of these models, the Euro just gave you the integrated swim platform and the rounded euro look windscreen. There is a "Euro" for sale in Detroit and in Toronto currently. Detroit has a 500 Carb and Toronto has a 454 Carb. As far as the "Offshore" model, there is one for sale in New York State with no power and an Alpha SS set up. This boat did a rock solid 75 with SBC power. These hulls are not fast by modern standards, with the 24 degree old school V, you are buying it for the ride, the way you buy a 22 Classic, but given how narrow they are, the hulls require a lot of driving skills to make 'em fly and tabs are a must have.

Greg Guimond
09-20-2011, 09:37 AM
Here is a side shot of the Team Warlock 23 World Class "Offshore" hull. Again, this was an old school look versus the "Euro" version. Later, in the late 90's the boats became "Ultimate Warlock" and there was a completely different model offered that was called the 23 XRI. This was also a 24 degree tradionlaV but was an 8' beam with a much higher gunnel and came with a little mid cabin jumper set up.

As we all already know, there just are not many 24 degree options out there once you want less then 24 feet. Warlock offered two ..........23'6" and 23' even. I have never seen another 23 foot speedboat hull that offered a 24 degree V. Easy to trailer and easy to keep fuel in. IMO no need to go into the bigger 24x7 hulls.

09-21-2011, 09:36 AM
I have thought that the ultimate would be the v-24 bat boat. With my power it would be a screamer. Only problem is it is a 2 seater and tight at that. Although this woudn't stop me from cutting the top off and moving the firewall back closer to the engine for another small seat. These boats rock! Never been a big fan of the warlock.

Greg Guimond
09-21-2011, 07:16 PM
I agree, I always thought that the Howard Custom Boats 220 Offshore was the best all around platform. It's too bad that Howard does not make them anymore and they are tough to find used as people never seem to sell them.

Greg Guimond
09-21-2011, 08:33 PM
Here is a little comparison I ran across for kicks..........the hulls are all identical.

thumbs - 2003 Ultra 23XS - 350Mag, Bravo 1 300hp - 58mph
socal19 - 2000 Ultra 23XS - 7.4MPI, Bravo 1 310hp - 59mph
xtrm22 - 1997 DCB 22 Extreme - carb'd nonmag 454 330hp - 64.7mph imcoflows, perfect conditions lab finished 3 blade
unknown - 2001 Ultra 23XS - Closed Deck with 377 Scorp 350hp - Bravo 1 - 68mph
Ultra 26#1 - 2002 Ultra 23XS -running a 496Mag - 375hp - Bravo 1- 70mph GPS with perfect conditions + light fuel
xtrm22 - 1997 DCB 22 - swapped in an HP500 carb(470hp?) Bravo 1 - 74.6with stock 26" 4 blade runnin 5000-5100 at (with trim left)
1tricky1 - 1994 Eliminator 22 Extreme - running 572hp at 5500 Bravo 1 - 80mph - 25p 3 blade
CB-BLR - 1995 Eliminator 22 Extreme 540 in. 685hp consistantly over 90mph. 2" IMCO shortie lower unit.

09-21-2011, 08:36 PM
No offense but how is that a comparison when you compare 300hp vs 685????

Greg Guimond
09-21-2011, 09:44 PM

It compares what speeds you can obtain with various HP ratings with an identical hull in the approximate size that Sir younger is thinking about.

09-22-2011, 05:06 AM
Several guys have restored their old Cigarette 20's and added lots of power. The 24 degree straight Vee hull can handle it and the

few I know of that have a Blackhawk drive have had good results. Here's one that has had a total Lip-Ship resto.

No pad old straight Vee hull, new 1995 deck, Blackhawk and Richie Zul unknown horsepower small block motor, giving it a +100 mph top speed.

The Blackhawk drive is supposedly not causing too much lift to the transom and no costly and labor intensive mods needed to the hull.


09-22-2011, 09:26 AM
Greg love the compar, see how the ultra with 350 mag running 58 and the extra 10hp from the bb gave the 1mph increase. I don't think that any of the west coast v boats are for me, although I love the howard and schaida. I have always loved the eliminator tunnels . Talk to Bob Leach one day about my power and drive any his responce was the 22 daytona. I have been doing some look'in and to be different a 22 classic with the bh and if need be a forced induction system on my 415. I can't find anyone who has done this set-up. I can pull 600hp from this motor with a push of air and a bigger set of heads. The bottom is as strong as you can get. Lars love that sb cig. wowzie! Chachi as far as explaining a 540 swap, next summer on the first outing with your girl pull a couple plug wires before start-up. She will notice like any good co-pilot that something is wrong. That is when you respond that the torque spindle rotor is gone in the motor and it will have to be replaced. Easy, thank me later.

Greg Guimond
09-22-2011, 09:57 AM
I thought the chart was cool as well. Curious, what don't you like about the West Coast boats? Is it looks or construction?

09-22-2011, 11:15 AM
Ok..my bad. I did not think all the boats were comparable but since that was noted I get the gist. I was thinking what does a 23xs with 300hp have in common with a 22 Eliminator with 685 but now I understand...sorry.

Greg Guimond
09-22-2011, 11:52 AM
younger, here is an interesting write-up from a small block believer...............looks like you and this guy think alike!

SBC Boat Engine Philosophy

The conventional wisdom in boat engines is to simply throw a bigger engine, especially in heft, at the problem of how to go faster on the water. At the onset, this seems both logical and simple. As a good friend, Roy Chambers once told me, “Rules will screw you up!”

And so enter the rules of physics as it applies to size, weight, and displacement of objects in water. Big block engines, with rare exceptions, grow from individual ideas and imagination coupled with the premise that bigger must be better. Another rule surfaces; men are basically lazy and that is what drives the quest for elevated standards of living. Big blocks are the easy but inefficient way to go faster.

In addition to the obvious bigger size, a big block and its typical Bravo outdrive simply weighs at least 350 pounds more than a small block with an Alpha. The Alpha SS, a beautiful and efficient unit with a factory cast bullet nose cone, was first offered by MerCruiser behind their 330 Hp 454 Chevrolet big block. My brother, Gary, and a friend had two of them and ran the absolute snot out of them for years. It is a good, light, strong, and efficient unit with high mph blowout speeds. To make it live, you just have to drive it right.

With 350 pounds of additional weight (about the size of wrestler Haystack Calhoun) sitting in the very butt end of your boat makes things happen you had not planned on. Weight displaces water. The displaced water is seen by your boat as a big increase in wetted surface just where you want it the least. Surface tension, or drag, enters the picture as more water touches your hull. Some attempts at pig skinning the rearmost hull bottom surface (like a basketball) will reduce the drag, but will not anywhere near eliminate it.

Here is where a really big small block, one with a lot of thought put into it, comes into the picture. The teams racing in NASCAR, both Cup and Busch series, have the luxury of finite rules that tightly govern what can and cannot be done competitively. They all have the same problem: 355 cu. in. displacement; precise car weights and profiles, and the need to go as fast as equipment life will allow for at least 500 miles. Each team is usually working with the exact same set of circumstances as far as engine design goes, and the head engine developer really gets excited when he finds 5 hp during the development year. NASCAR is a collective mind pool. On top of that, many teams run their engines for an additional 500-550 miles before complete tear-down. Try that with any big block humming along at 8,200 to 9,200 rpm for up to 1,000 miles of racing.

So, consider the problems needed solving when on average of 750-775 Hp is needed from an engine of 355 cu. in. that turns an average of 8800-9200 rpm on unrestricted race tracks. This is 2.18 hp per cu. in. normally aspirated with a single 4 barrel! Can you imagine anyone’s big block being able deliver this kind of power and endurance for anything over an hour, much more 1000 miles! This is why NASCAR has contributed so much in maximizing the service life of rotating and reciprocating assemblies and fixed components such as heads and intakes. On a direct comparison, cu. in. for cu. in., a well thought out small block is substantially ahead of a big block.

Consider why the Golden Gate Bridge weighs in the neighborhood of 890,000 tons? It certainly is not to support the measly weight of the traffic going across it. It weighs that much in order to support itself! The same for the big block.

An engine is not aware of how much swept area lies beneath its cylinder heads. The heads are aware only how much air they have to deliver to satisfy the moment’s requirements. Consequently, a set of really good heads, done with the correct philosophy using a NASCAR template for small blocks, but sitting on a block having 434 to 440 cu. in. displacement, will FLY! If the heads delivered 750-775 hp on a 355” engine at 8,000 rpm, the same heads will develop the same hp on a 447 cu. in. engine but at a much lower 6300 rpm. And it will be responsive! In my configurations, less overall power is developed by using much lower compression and less camshaft timing events.

In my experience, torque moves the world, and horsepower is for getting into fights in bars. On Lee Day’s DTS dyno (the only private dyno in this country certified by the US Government Bureau of Standards) only torque is directly measured at the brake. The computer then calculates the horsepower. If you have bushels of torque, you do not have to twist the engine nearly as tight.

For several years, due to my proximity to Charlotte, NC, I have used heads, intakes, valve train, rods, and pistons straight from NASCAR teams and used them on and in big displacement small blocks (both Chevrolet and Fords). The NASCAR endurance rods by Carrillo and others are unbelievable in strength. Due to the unavailability of commercially available CG approved wet small block Ford exhaust manifolds, I prefer to build a tall deck Dart Iron Eagle Chevrolet small block at 9.325” deck height with a 4.125” initial bore and then bore it up to 4.155” to begin my engine.

I then use a good 4340 steel crank of 4.125” stroke, which delivers 447.452 cu. in. displacement. I choose a set of NASCAR Carrillo endurance rods with 6.250” centers and the small block pin bore of .9280” pin bore which delivers a really good rod/stroke ratio and swings nicely in the tall deck block. I also usually use NASCAR pistons that were designed for the same engine head family I am building, and I usually have a selection in piston compression height so I can juggle around with the rod lengths, usually between 6.00 and 6.250”. Using a nice un-shrouded combustion chamber, I can use a dished piston and end up with somewhere around 10.47 to 1 compression ratio.

The heads I use are the best I can get in a 23 degree SBC. There are some really good ones out there. They will surprise you. As I said earlier, I use the SBC because of the exhaust manifold limitation. If there was no limitation, I would use a 460 cu. in. Ford CHi Cleveland SB head package in a heartbeat. Kaase recently got 771 Hp. From a pump gas street 434” engine that was over 600 ft. lbs. of torque from 2800 rpm to 6100. That engine could be built less than 400 lbs. easily. Regarding heads, the fully optimized ones I mess around with when flowed will give about 2.15 Hp. per CFM on the intake.

Camshafts are either up in the air or as obvious as the nose on one’s face. I prefer hydraulic rollers since that technology has changed much over the past six or seven years and they can open and close the valve rapidly, especially when dealing with only a max of 5800 to 6000 rpm. Oddly enough, the Schneider mechanical roller is also tops, and Isky is unbeatable in roller lifters.

On the tall deck Dart Iron Eagle 9.325” block I really like the Dart tall deck single 4 barrel 4500 base unit. The Holley Dominator was originally designed to meter fuel much more efficiently than the 4150’s for NASCAR engines under a development contract from Ford on the 427 in late 1962 for the 427’s debut in 1963. It meters extremely well with very low vacuum signals compared with smaller body carburetors and stretched the fuel mileage for NASCAR teams running the 427s.

Since most of us are using outdrives, we are constrained by the available outdrive gear ratios. I like 1.36 to 1.5 gears for the Alpha swinging a 14.75” SS prop. I prefer 3 blade props, that have been worked over by a knowledgeable prop smith.

My boat, competed from 1991 to the fall of 1995 in APBA races on the East Coast in the Chesapeake Challenge Series. In those years, running in Modified B, it was never beaten. These races were from 60 to 120 miles, using a combination of either the James River in Virginia or the Chester River in Maryland and both courses included a large loop in the Chesapeake Bay and then a wholesale sprint of about 60 miles back up river to the starting point. Big water or small water, it was always the same, first place at the end of the race, and still in first place after 3 teardowns. In those days it was a mere 415 cu. in. It used to really amuse the announcer for Freeze Frame Video since many times their video helicopter could not keep up if the wind wasn’t in their favor.

The larger 434 to 447” engines came after the boat was retired from sanctioned competition and used purely for pleasure on the lakes and rivers. During the period it was competed in APBA, the boat was always used in weekend pleasure use on the Bay or the big rivers and lakes. With the same engines! Full interior and seats!

I still needed the feel and the zing of power and accomplishment with “under dog” or “sleeper” rides. The 447” engine is unbelievable. And, it saves a ton of fuel compared to a Golden Gate Big Block.

09-22-2011, 02:31 PM
As far as I know it is roughly 110lbs between a SBC and a BBC Mercruiser(stock iron everything). I can't imagine the B1 drives weighing abother 240lbs. If you have enough HP you would need a B1 or something more substantial than an alpha anyway so what is 110lbs between friends? The driver for Team Baja had the same boat as me and told me the Alpha can handle 450hp but you have to baby it. The only reason it was only used on 330's was because of warranty problems in higher HP....people do drive like idiots. I had 400hp on mine and it stayed together forever but I also had the 1.32:1 ratio which are heavier duty with larger gears and bearings, etc. I don't know how well a 1.5 would hold up. trust me I love SBC's but the torque on a BBC is nothing to overlook...just run 15 less gallons of fuel

09-22-2011, 05:40 PM

What gear ratio is your blackhawk?

09-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Nice find Greg! Love it. That is the thing regarding the large cube sbc they look like a sbc but work like a bbc. The biggest problem is cost. When i built this motor of mine for the price i could have built a serious bb. The sb will alway be more efficent. Most people haven't seen the big cube sb light. Just think large cube sbc h the 1.32 hd gears and bearings, set up tight. I would break in very easy and never hole shot or go wave jumping. The first year of the 415 I ran an alpha behind it. This motor makes massive torque. The bh drive is a 1.65 gear running 30" Hoss custom props turning mid 5's.67962Here is a pic I was looking for 24 schaida this is a nice boat.

09-22-2011, 11:21 PM
I think it's more than 110 lbs. From the Merc website:

SBC Merc (350 Mag): weight with Alpha: 946 lbs, weight with Bravo 1: 987 lbs
BBC Merc (496): weight with Bravo 1: 1199 lbs

If I did it right in my head:

Difference BBC Bravo - SBC Alpha: 253 lbs
Difference BBC Bravo - SBC Bravo: 212 lbs

Looks like the Alpha/Bravo delta is about 41 lbs. (Which is odd to me, I thought it was a little more...maybe I was thinking of Bravo 3 weight...)



Greg Guimond
09-23-2011, 09:56 AM
Ghost, your data looks to be pretty accurate but I am sure there are people on the board who know exactly how much a Big Block/Bravo versus a Small Block/Alpha SS differ in weight. Weight plays an incredible role in speed in the smaller hulls. As an example, look at my 16 which is now laying down consistent 83's. Weight on the back? 392lb motor and 37lb jackplate plus a little rigging totals 429lbs. So there is 280HP pushing the same speeds as younger's stout SBC/BH. You just can't underestimate the value of keeping the weight down.

Younger, the Schiada 24 River Cruiser is one incredible boat. The problem with Schiada's is they are very expensive used. It is not uncommon for the boats to be in the $75k range. The construction is incredible. If you like the Schi 24 you owe it to yourself to track down a Vaughn 22. That hull was a direct splash of the Schi 24 hull which back in the day caused a lot or legal wrangling. While everyone knows the Schiada's, no one knows about Vaughn so they are dirt cheap and would make a cool platform for your package. You will have to purchase them in CA though as they seem to have a following with the Catalina ski race crowd and are few and far between.

I think you can also buy this Warlock 23 for $9k with trailer, external steering, and just needing a motor.............

09-23-2011, 10:37 AM
Actually I think the BBC B1 is 1179 which would make it 192lbs difference. The right manifolds and intake and you could be down to 110lbs.

Greg Guimond
09-23-2011, 10:46 AM
Here are a couple of shots of the Vaughn 22..........

mc donzi
09-23-2011, 11:07 AM

I'm really going date myself here but back when you were probably about Hunter's age there was a company in South Florida building 'Carrera' boats. I think that they built 2 models..a 24' and a 32'. I remember reading that the 24' was a consistent winner in the 30' offshore class at the time. So I'm thinkin' they are a pretty good rough water boat. The drawbacks would be the weight(probably before the lightweight composites) and the availability. But every once in a while one pops up.

Someone started a thread here about Carreras in the 'Talk About Other Boats' section earlier this year.

Good luck on your next project.


09-23-2011, 11:49 AM
Could be interesting. http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/2610668285.html

I do believe Sling Shot used to race the Benihana offshore in NJ back in the days. I also do not think this was Sling shot, just using the pic.

09-23-2011, 12:05 PM
Greg Guimond said: "Ghost, your data looks to be pretty accurate but I am sure there are people on the board who know exactly how much a Big Block/Bravo versus a Small Block/Alpha SS differ in weight."

I don't know about Alphs SS weight. If that was the question, oops. Didn't catch that part. I don't know.

BiggieFL said: "Actually I think the BBC B1 is 1179 which would make it 192lbs difference. The right manifolds and intake and you could be down to 110lbs."

Apologies if I misunderstood something. I thought the question was about the weight of stock BB vs SB complete setups, bone stock, all iron. My point was simply that all iron, the difference has to be WAY more than 110 lbs. Closer to double that, in fact. I pulled the numbers straight off the Merc website.

http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/sterndrives/mpi496ho_specs.php (listed as 1199, not 1179 with Bravo 1)

(As an aside, I used the 496 instead of the 8.2 because Merc didn't include the drive weight of the full setup in their specs, they only put the motor weight in on the 8.2. Futher, my understanding is the new 8.2 has aluminum heads (at least) already, to save weight, slightly more than offsetting the added weight of the new catalyst setup and anything else different.)

To be fair, while I agree you can shave weight off a big block with aluminum manifolds/heads/etc, you can do all of that to a small block too, right? So, while the gap can be closed a hair by going aluminum, the BB - SB weight difference doesn't change too much, apples to apples, right? If you're simply targeting an absolute weight, say, trying to get your BB setup (motor, drive, shield, everything) down to say 1050 lbs or something, then obviously it doesn't matter what you can shave off the small block. But again, I thought the question was on stock stuff, all iron. If I have that wrong, my bad.

Greg Guimond
09-23-2011, 12:30 PM
You are correct Ghost, it was stock vs stock.

As an aside, if younger wants 80 as a top speed I just don't see that happening with his mill and any of the 24x7 boats. They are just too heavy IMO to get 80.

09-23-2011, 12:55 PM
You are correct Ghost but a stock carbed 454 B1 is 1179 which is what I have. What does the 6.2 B1 weigh? That would be more of a comparo to the 496 which has FWC, etc.

09-25-2011, 03:28 PM
Greg the pic of the Schaida is a 24 mini offshore. And yes they are rare, but beautiful boats none the less. To understand power and weight we all know lighter is faster. Interesting that the bh 16 is faster with 3 people and full of gas than when I travel solo no interior, no extras and running on fumes. The boat is way, way over powered and the weight gives me control. The weight settles the hull. I have never been able to stay into it long enough to get a true top speed. Greg I ask you from your trials with the 16 ob running in the 80's how secure do you feel? How long can you stay on the trottle at 83mph? In my case when it comes to the weight the motor is making so much power that it is riding for free. I know that taking an inche out of my x will give me some stability and of course more mph, but the only thing that is going to give my safety is more hull.

Greg Guimond
09-25-2011, 07:00 PM
younger, I'm not trying to be a wise arse with my response here, but I'm not running a 16' hull because I crave safety. I crave the rush of running at the edge. Also, for the record the best speed I personally have seen with my OB is 79 and for plenty long stretches. The bench racing 83's that are being clocked are being done by my rigger driving as we go through MANY set-up and engine permutations on The Mule. 85 is a no brainer at this point and there may be more but not sure as Surface Tension is getting a little fatter then was planned at the start of the build. Now I'm the first to admit that I don't understand the BH application but that is a LOT of extra weight to lug around to give the boat a better set. The full gas tank makes sense to me because of the low center of gravity benefits but the 400lbs of extra peeps? It tells me (as you already have said) that there is more room to refine your set-up. My point was that when you start to get up to the "safety" of a 24 footer, the weight really takes its toll on obtaining your stated objective of 80mph. I don't know if the 7x24 options would get you there. I think you have to be under 24 feet to have a fighting chance at obtaining consistent 80mph readings in appropriate chop conditions. I saw you asked about pads in another post. Are you really going to add a pad to the bottom of your 16 BH? Is that going to satisfy your need for safety? I know exactly how to do it and who you could use, but are you really going to feel more secure with a pad bottom, 16 Classic BH that can easily do 90mph? I doubt that Ed D ever felt anything of the sort when he was running his pad bottom 16 thirty years back. I personally like trying to make a slow 16 hull go fast, but I also like OB's so my opinion is worth a lot to me, and nothing to everyone else, hah!

09-25-2011, 08:14 PM
Greg if 79 is your tops, not close to the ragged edge yet!!! Put another 7 or 8 mph to and see how things change. Yes I would think of doing the pad to the 16 for fun if my sale falls through. I have hundreds of hours in the 16 in many power configuration. As far as set-up and testing this has been done. The only thing left would be to fill the transom hole and raise the x. The reason that this has not been done is that i want to have a stock appearing 16. To do this mod the rear seat and engine hatch get chopped up. That is why I show interest in the pad. This would keep the boat stock on the deck but get my drive high when running.

09-25-2011, 08:29 PM
" I have hundreds of hours in the 16 in many power configuration."

Why??? There are people that have hit the 90+ mark in an aluminum pontoon....buy a boat that was designed for it in my opinion. Yeah we can have bragging rights, etc. Personally I think if I wanted to spend $15k and go real fast I would have bought a pickle fork. You buy classics to do what they do best....put a smile on your face. Bring it on but unless you are rich..seems stupid to me.

09-25-2011, 08:44 PM
If had all the money that I spent on this boat back in my jeans I would no longer be stupid. Great, but then I would still be paying for someone else to wrench on my boat. I would have never met the wonderful folks over the years running this boat. The only bragg'in I have is in regards to my Donzi experience! Great times.

Greg Guimond
09-25-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm not too concerned with another 7-8mph on my hull. I for one, would like to see you do a pad on the bottom of the BH but I'm still not following your logic. If safety is your concern, do you think a pad bottom on the BH will make you feel that much more comfortable driving it above 85?

09-26-2011, 10:37 AM
Sorry...a few cervesas last night. My point was/is these boats are made to do X and do it with style & grace and do it VERY well. When you want them to do Y it costs a BUNCH of money and may not be safe or do it very well anymore. Some boats are meant to do Y so why not just buy one and keep the Classic for doing X? It would cost less probably. I look at the money the Swede has put in that 22 and I don't even want to imagine how much it was, neither does he probably. Sure I would love it if my 22 did 70+ but I knew it was a 60mph ride when I bought it and am happy to do that. Maybe one day when the time comes I will make her a 70mph rig but I will never do more than a motor. It is easier and cheaper to buy somebody elses 85mph rig for $.40 on the dollar that he spent. Look at MM, he was asking $19k for a 120mph 18'.

09-26-2011, 10:41 AM
The bh 16 is not comming to an end because it is not safe. The safety factor comes in when running it at 80+ for extented periods. The only reason I'm looking at other possibilities is because someone is intrested in my hull. When I boat my family comes to, so the boat needs to be fast, safe, and some more room would be nice. The boating we do is long runs with adverse conditions at times. So if I keep the boat I may look at a pad to raise my x and give me someting to run on at these speeds. The bh was a great addition to the boat I gained 10+ mph and went from hanging on at 70 to driving at 70. We have to remember that this 16 is short for the 24 degrees it runs on, and there is no dought we are exceeding there limits.

Greg Guimond
09-26-2011, 07:30 PM
I just don't see you installing a pad bottom on your 16.

Greg Guimond
09-26-2011, 11:19 PM
Here's a rare bird...........These boats had a 23 degree V

1990 CARRERA VIPER - $12,500

Date: 2011-09-21, 4:51PM PDT
Reply to: sale-uuxrv-2561153249@craigslist.org
1990 Carrera 23' cuddy cabin viper for sale or trade.

About 15,000 in receipts everything's been redone three years ago about 100 hrs on boat since redone a must see.
750 hp big block Chevy 671 B&M blower motor,Xr gears in out drive power engine cover. Two seats & bed under bow,
amp w/7 speakers w/Ipod connection. Its ready to go!!! Serious inquiries only plz...$12,500 or Possible trad.

If interested call Danny @760-221-3359.

09-27-2011, 10:29 AM
Hate the euro style boats! What makes you think Greg I wouldn't pad the 16bh? I have put stringers, transom, gusseted the hull to handle the power of the 415bh combo. I have had 4 motors and 5 drives in this boat. The only thing I will not do is mod the top side of the boat to raise my x, but I would pad it if it hangs around. I think this would give me some riding surface and get the drive up. On my calculations the drive is low by an 1".

Greg Guimond
09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
I can't see you spending $4,000 USD to add a pad to that 16 when it seems like what you are really after is a more family friendly hull. You started by talking about boats as long as 30', then dropped down to 7x24 options of which there are hundreds, then went on to talk about increasing your safety factor with any hull you choose.

Adding a pad to your BH 16 doesn't make the 16 bigger, safer or more family useful :(

09-27-2011, 07:24 PM
No I have not eliminated any of my choices even to 30'. The question was what boat with my power. Yes looking for someting larger for the comfort on long days would be nice. This is all dependent on the 16 sale. 24/7 was the suggested hull to still maintain some speed. This is what others have had expierence with. If I got into something larger I would think of putting a forced induction system on the motor easy 600 hp. This in a y2k or extreme would run 80. As far as putting a pad on the 16 I do all my own work. If the pad doesn't work why did Ed Donnelly have one on his 100+ 16, and I think you have added one. Do tell.

Greg Guimond
09-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Huh, I never said a pad does not work :confused:

I said "Adding a pad to your BH 16 doesn't make the 16 bigger, safer or more family useful"

Greg Guimond
09-27-2011, 09:12 PM
The hardcore 24 degree V hulls are coming out of the woodwork for sale ............Warlock 23 XRI. You could do a very cool composite hard top cover for the open bow to convert it to hard deck when you want.

Greg Guimond
09-28-2011, 09:16 PM
No rounded Euro look windscreens.......in the under 24' class that eliminates some good hulls -

Carrera Viper's and 238's, 23 and 24 degree V's respectively
Team Warlock 23 Offshore "Euro" - 24 degree V

Greg Guimond
10-04-2011, 08:56 PM
younger, are you really able to add a pad to your 16 yourself? I did not know you had that kind of glass skill, very cool.

Greg Guimond
10-04-2011, 09:01 PM
How about a Howard? No rounded windscreen euro look for these hulls and they would love your powerplant :yes:

10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Greg do my own work. My thought is if I have to pay someone else to do the work I don't have it. Have a small machine shop that is used to work on my own stuff. Looks like the guy intested in the 16 passed and bought a u-17. So the 16 stays for now. May add a pad. Greg get your measuing tape out and measure your pad. Does it come all the way back to the transom or does it stop ahead of the transom and create a step? I have recieved some great info from Ed Donnelly and his 16 he had with a pad. Show me the science behind your pad, this would be great.

Greg Guimond
10-05-2011, 05:37 PM
younger, all the pad details are in my build thread. Feel free to check it out.

10-05-2011, 10:24 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Errr...where'd u find this one. I'm thinking about pulling the trigger again. Thanks, Dave

10-06-2011, 06:30 AM
bring the family down and i will take you for a ride on the formula or don't cause once you ride in one that big with the family it starts to make alot of sense

10-06-2011, 06:50 PM
Shea hows the new boat working out? Do you miss that 22? I'm thinkin that Formula would work great in Lake of the Isles!!

10-07-2011, 02:33 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

"Errr...where'd u find this one. I'm thinking about pulling the trigger again. Thanks, Dave"

Good to hear You're finally about to get Yourself another boat again Dave. Didn't understand Your comment though. What are You looking to get this time?

Cheers, Lars.

10-08-2011, 01:42 AM
Hey there. Sorry bout that. Quote thing doesn't work the same as it used to?? Or it's just me.
Anyway, that 23 XRi might suit my needs well...with three little kids now. I can't believe I'm thinking about a bow-rider, but that mid-cabin type layout makes good sense in so-cal. I already found the boat on CL.com. She's got a 454 Mag MPI and a B3 drive. I think that's 385 hp, and a twin prop setup. Wonder what speed? Low 60's?? D

10-08-2011, 04:18 AM
Yes that 23 XRI is a good package and the owner seem to have spent a few bucks on upgrades. The quote thing on the forum doesn't seem to work like

You said. I would of course be super excited if You stepped all the way up to a Howard 25 Bullet open-bow, but they're hard to find below $45K. Found

another Warlock that might interest You, so I'll send You a p.m. Have a great weekend bud.

Greg Guimond
10-08-2011, 07:54 AM
Dave911, if the Mag is the 385 then you are looking at 65 on the money. I'm pretty familiar with the Warlock 23XRI, had one surveyed and water tested. It is a unique build from when Carter was running the company. It is the only thing I ever found that is 23 feet long with an 8 foot beam and a traditional 24 degree V. 24's......ton of 'em. 23's......none of 'em. This 23 has the same running surface as many 24's and fits in the garage better:crossfing: It also has a very high freeboard for a go fast which is good for the kids. I have spoken to several owners, with both drive styles, and those with the B3 seem to really like the drives behavior with that hull. One guy took his 23XRI to Catalina with some regularity. Being on the east coast I'm not exactly sure what that means but he said it was known for bigger water. There is also a closed bow 23XRI for sale. Lars is spot on with the cost of a Howard but there is a Howard 25 project out by you for cheap if you want to go the project route.

Here is an interior pic of a Warlock 23XRI that is also for sale out by you, the mid cabin, open bow format is great for the kids if they are younger.

10-10-2011, 08:41 PM
Thanks for the input.
I feel like I need three boats:
A 35' cigarette-style boat to span ocean waves.
A 23' ski boat to get the kids on skis / boards / tubes.
And a fat-^ss cruiser, like a Formula 280SS, for chillin' with the family on Havasu.
"What boat?" is a loaded, trick question. :lifeprese:

Greg Guimond
10-13-2011, 10:41 PM
You could always pick up the new Nordic 21 stuffed with a 1350...............:shades:.........perfect for younger


10-14-2011, 10:50 AM
I was good with the video until the 'music' started...

Boat looks fast though! With that seating I'm guessing it's going to be a ski-race rig?

Hard to believe they'd build something like that for general public consumption. Any est. of top speed?

10-14-2011, 02:24 PM
Greg no your talkin! That Nordic is sweet. I'm guessing 120 easy, love to be behind the wheel of that. I really wonder if that prop ventilation is required on that #6 in a 21' boat.

Greg Guimond
10-14-2011, 05:25 PM
That 1350 Nordic is purpose built for the hardcore ski race crowd. The 21 hull itself however is one Nordic has had success with for many years. It has never been to a rally though so I don't want to post a board race speed for fear of being told only rally qualified speeds are legit :wink:

younger, give up on the pad idea and come over to the dark side and go clamp on........you'll never regret it :outtahere:

10-14-2011, 09:10 PM
Greg the first motor I built was a Merc 25H with racing mid and quicky lower unit hooked to a 9' hydro that ripped. I built 3 different Merc race motors that I ran on that boat. I still have a 3 point hydro I built, never been wet, that needs a 25xs! So comming to the dark side you say, one of my many loves is outboards. It has been awhile since I have run one, but that feeling of flying with a smoker screaming behind is awsome. The ultimate for a outboard for me would be to build a retro tunnel and bolt on a s3000 merc. Nothing like the sound of a wood tunnel under ya packing air!!!!!!!!

Greg Guimond
10-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Now that you are committed to the 16 BH pad conversion, how about you add something like this ........

10-27-2011, 09:44 AM
What is that running a vented step? I may put a pad on but I will be on the coservitive side of things. The reason for me to go with a pad is to raise my x. This will also give me some stability at high speeds becauce of the padded surface to run on and make the drive even more effiecent. If you see the hull at speed now it is well vented. The biggest issue in the pad design is to run the pad to the transom or or notch it 8" or so forward. I have been looking at not getting many resaults. This app. is a little different then stock due to the props proximity to the boat.

Greg Guimond
10-27-2011, 07:27 PM
For a highly surfaced application I'm not sure a notch that long would be the ticket on a 16.

Greg Guimond
10-27-2011, 11:33 PM
But I would suggest a couple of degrees of deadrise on the pad to make it jump up easier.

10-28-2011, 07:07 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

norm, i do not miss the 22

it was an awesome boat and i am glad to have had it it was a good move from the 16, but been there done that and moving on

the type of running i do and having the extra room and size of the formula make it alot more user friendly

running 3-4ft waves in the lake at 40-50 mph drinking a cold ......pop....... is way better than the odd 85+ mph blast down the bay and cramping all your stuff at your feet having to slow down for boat wakes

10-28-2011, 11:09 PM
Yes I can understand Shea the Formula route. We put alot of miles on the St. Lawerance and some rough ridin at times. I have had some experience with the bigger performace boats and the ride is great. I just love the fast stuff in the 18-24 range. I think if I had of moved my boat with the drivetrain in it, I would have seriously look at used 21-24 Skater. I was trying to move my Harley and the boat to start my next boat project but it never happened. The boat and bike are all tucked in for winter so they will stay around for a little longer. My latest project has been a vintage b stock hydro that i built many year ago. The hull has never been splashed and I,m machining all the hardware. Have to built a motor as well. My son is at me to have it ready to go. This will take priority now!

Greg Guimond
10-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Agree on the Pantera. Also this Cole 240 Offshore is pretty unique .............

Greg Guimond
10-29-2011, 11:56 AM
And this 2001 Carrera 238 just showed up on the market. In addition to the Warlock 23XRI this is the only other 23 footer I have found with a 24 degree deadrise. They are a 'big' 23 footer overall.

Year, Make & Model: 2001 Carrera 238 Classic Mid Cuddy/Open Bow
Price: $30,995
Information: 2001 Carrera 238 Classic, One owner, nicest on the market, like new inside and out, stored indoors since new, over $15,000 in factory upgrades, less than 130 Running Hours, Upgraded Mercuriser 502 Magnum EFI, Custom Marine Power Exhaust, (450+ hp), Bravo 1, Drive shower, S/S 4 blade Bravo 1 24p prop, boat runs 70+ mph and very smooth in rough water, 24 degree dead rise, More info on the way!


Greg Guimond
12-13-2011, 08:13 PM
We put alot of miles on the St. Lawerance and some rough ridin at times. I have had some experience with the bigger performace boats and the ride is great. I just love the fast stuff in the 18-24 range.

What did you end up with younger?

12-14-2011, 02:04 PM
That Carrera is in pristine shape from the pics. Does it really need a triple axle though?

12-16-2011, 12:28 PM
Realestate! The only way I will be moving on is to sell the 16 bh and some other toys. My wife has been buying toys for me and our son for years. I guess the two rentals she bought for or future will maybe buy me something else down the road.