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yeller
08-27-2011, 11:19 PM
Everyone's favorite passtime. Spending someone elses money!! :thewave:

So if you didn't already know, my 496HO is offically a boat anchor and I need to build a new motor.
I have until next spring to get a motor done, so I'm not in any immediate rush. For starters, I'm just looking for others ideas.

The only criteria I have is:
Motor must be EFI.
I will need a different ECM and harness.
I will be using my Procharger. I'd go N/A, but I doubt I'd get the HP I want with my budget.
$10k budget (installed, running. Parts and machine work. I'll turn my own wrenches). I can go somewhat more if necessary, but I'd love it if I could do it for less.

What's your suggestions? Can it be done for $10k?
:checkered:

yeller
08-27-2011, 11:29 PM
My initial thoughts are to grab a junkyard 454 for rebuild. Replace the internals. I can clean the stock heads up to flow well enough with the S/C. Replace the valves/springs. Look for a deal on a EFI setup on OSO or the likes and I should be close to the 10k budget.
I'm thinking 454 because I'm guessing it would be the easiest motor to get parts for (and probably the cheapest).

Questions I have are what heads/block would I be looking for? And what to put inside?

mrfixxall
08-27-2011, 11:41 PM
My initial thoughts are to grab a junkyard 454 for rebuild. Replace the internals. I can clean the stock heads up to flow well enough with the S/C. Replace the valves/springs. Look for a deal on a EFI setup on OSO or the likes and I should be close to the 10k budget.
I'm thinking 454 because I'm guessing it would be the easiest motor to get parts for (and probably the cheapest).
Questions I have are what heads/block would I be looking for? And what to put inside?

your cylinder heads wont work on a 454 block..has to be a late model gen 7 block..

theirs a 600 sc on oso for 7500..bolt that in and go colse to 100 mph like mr x did..

yeller
08-28-2011, 04:30 PM
Questions I have are what heads/block would I be looking for?

Motor must be EFI.

your cylinder heads wont work on a 454 block..has to be a late model gen 7 block..

theirs a 600 sc on oso for 7500..bolt that in and go colse to 100 mph like mr x did..

Com'n Fixx, pay attention. :wink: I don't plan on using anything from my 496, except maybe exhaust (if they fit). I was talking about cleaning up the stock 454 heads. 600sc is carb'd. I only want EFI.


Buying someone's already built motor is high on my list. Probably the cheapest, easiest way to go, so don't hesitate to post links of any you find. I'm just curious what other's feel could be built with about $10k

mrfixxall
08-28-2011, 04:50 PM
Com'n Fixx, pay attention. :wink: I don't plan on using anything from my 496, except maybe exhaust (if they fit). I was talking about cleaning up the stock 454 heads. 600sc is carb'd. I only want EFI.
Buying someone's already built motor is high on my list. Probably the cheapest, easiest way to go, so don't hesitate to post links of any you find. I'm just curious what other's feel could be built with about $10k

something else to think about,,you may have to change the bracket for the procharger to go from a 496 to a 502 or a 454..

a friend may want to sell his 502 eki fresh water engine out of his zx..

gcarter
08-28-2011, 05:51 PM
Just a reminder, Jim Collins' 454 (95?) w/a Procharger does 92.
It's pretty much stock and is really pretty mild.
I don't know what heads Merc used on that years Magnum, but whatever, ya can't argue w/success.

hdsadey
08-28-2011, 07:04 PM
I'd find a 7.4 liter vortec. Junkyard motor for 500-1000. Excellent flowing heads with lots of potential. Already a roller block with roller lifters just change the cam. Under 10k should be no problem as long as you don't go too radical.

Tom A.
08-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Potter Performance Engines.

Call Ron, he will be happy to build a set up for you.

http://www.potterperformance.com/SOMERVILLE.html

silverghost
08-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Yeller~
I would not buy just anyone's old take-out boat engine build unless you know that person; and can confirm that this was a proper marine performance engine build with no damage or issues.
I have heard of far too many folks being burned on old take-out used improperly "built" performance marine engines.

How about a nice Blue Merc motor ?

gcarter
08-28-2011, 10:16 PM
How about a nice Blue Merc motor ?

Brad, maybe you missed the part about the $10K price tag.....

silverghost
08-28-2011, 11:20 PM
Brad, maybe you missed the part about the $10K price tag.....

George~
You can often find good used take-out Blue Mercs in his price range .
If you keep your eyes open.
It is not bery common~
But some do pop-up from time to time.
He has 7-8 months to find just the right motor,

Not new Blue Motors at that price however.

Carl C
08-29-2011, 08:01 AM
Your exhaust will not fit and you will probably have to relocate the exhaust tips. Of course that involves filling the old holes and painting the transom. Keep money budgeted for that.

roadtrip se
08-29-2011, 11:39 AM
You can make great NA power without the procharger. Think displacement. EFI is going to drive the budget up.

Catch 22's mild 454 may have started life as a stocker, but it isn't now, and hasn't been for awhile.

Potter Power is awesome POWER, but your $10K budget will be blown to smithereens. See pic.
This thing is beyond awesome. $28K asking is a steal. 800HP with 600 cubes. Total sweetness.
Accessories can be painted yellow.

Brian just did a 496HO to 540 conversion, and used the 496 CMIs with new tails.

Conquistador_del_mar
08-29-2011, 01:48 PM
A couple weeks ago, I sold a freshly built 632 stroker making 800HP for $8000. You would have needed an exhaust system like the CMIs that I am selling and the peripherals. I mention this since you could sell your Procharger and 496HO parts which would probably keep you well under $10K even if you had to pay a little more for a 540 or 632. This would get you 630-800HP. 540s are sweet boat engines - :yes:
Another route would be buying the 525 upper end parts and building up your own engine. Derebery Marine (next to my business) had 3 - 525 complete systems including the wiring harnesses and computers less the engines for only $1500 each as of a couple months ago. I could check to see if he still has any if you want. Bill

roadtrip se
08-29-2011, 08:23 PM
A couple weeks ago, I sold a freshly built 632 stroker making 800HP for $8000. You would have needed an exhaust system like the CMIs that I am selling and the peripherals. I mention this since you could sell your Procharger and 496HO parts which would probably keep you well under $10K even if you had to pay a little more for a 540 or 632. This would get you 630-800HP. 540s are sweet boat engines - :yes:
Another route would be buying the 525 upper end parts and building up your own engine. Derebery Marine (next to my business) had 3 - 525 complete systems including the wiring harnesses and computers less the engines for only $1500 each as of a couple months ago. I could check to see if he still has any if you want. Bill

A big part of my Potter package this year started with the 525 intake. The 500 intake just did not breathe. The 525 does. Plus one for picking up a take-off.
We just used the hardware, not the electronics, and stuck with the 500 stuff.

yeller
08-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. One thing I definitely will not do is go carb'd. I've seen plenty of 454/502 EFI take offs for under $1k, so it is only a matter of waiting to find the right price.

RT, I LOVE the looks of that motor! Believe me, I saw it a long time ago and have been drooling over it. Waaayyy to much $$ for me though, and I don't really need that much HP.

I originally said 550~650, but realistically, I'd be happy with anything over 500. About 550~575 would be optimum.

Ghost, the blue motors are nice units, but I have never seen one below 15k that didn't need to be torn down.

Bill, when you said Derebery Marine had "525 upper end parts", what did that all include? The complete EFI setup? I have to assume that would not include the heads at that price, correct? In any case, yes, please check to see if he still has one and what his current cost is.

I know I can get 500~550 reliable HP on my budget with the procharger, but just for $hits and giggles, what pieces would you put into a 454/502 to try and stay close to my budget (and shooting for as much hp as reliably possible)? That's what I was really trying to get with this thread........although I really like all the input so far. I wouldn't hesitate to N/A, but it needs to be done EFI.

mrfixxall
08-29-2011, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. One thing I definitely will not do is go carb'd. I've seen plenty of 454/502 EFI take offs for under $1k, so it is only a matter of waiting to find the right price.

RT, I LOVE the looks of that motor! Believe me, I saw it a long time ago and have been drooling over it. Waaayyy to much $$ for me though, and I don't really need that much HP.

I originally said 550~650, but realistically, I'd be happy with anything over 500. About 550~575 would be optimum.

Ghost, the blue motors are nice units, but I have never seen one below 15k that didn't need to be torn down.

Bill, when you said Derebery Marine had "525 upper end parts", what did that all include? The complete EFI setup? I have to assume that would not include the heads at that price, correct? In any case, yes, please check to see if he still has one and what his current cost is.

I know I can get 500~550 reliable HP on my budget with the procharger, but just for $hits and giggles, what pieces would you put into a 454/502 to try and stay close to my budget (and shooting for as much hp as reliably possible)? That's what I was really trying to get with this thread........although I really like all the input so far. I wouldn't hesitate to N/A, but it needs to be done EFI.

lets face it,,your boat ran fine before the cooler blew and you seemed happy withthe performance..if it were me and i were in your shoes and didnt want to go over the 10k budget i would just find a low hr 496 and run with it..for what your looking for and whats in your area your not going to build a bluee motor for under 10 k..now add a harness and adaptor and all the blood sweat its would make more sence..

offer this guy 8k for his 80 hr 496ho,,,put it in and go boating..
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/swap-shop/258865-496-ho-complete-engine.html

p.s. make sure you dont forget to run antifreeze the inter cooler on the McDonzi before you put it away for the winter..DONT BLOW THROUGH IT WITH AIR,it will bloe the cooler,,use green sierra antifreeze with a hand pump..

Conquistador_del_mar
08-30-2011, 12:16 AM
Bill, when you said Derebery Marine had "525 upper end parts", what did that all include? The complete EFI setup? I have to assume that would not include the heads at that price, correct? In any case, yes, please check to see if he still has one and what his current cost is.

Yes, it was the entire EFI setup including the blue top. I will check tomorrow. Bill

BUIZILLA
08-30-2011, 07:17 AM
listen to fixx..

Buddyc
08-30-2011, 07:31 AM
Fixxx Makes good sence...

roadtrip se
08-30-2011, 01:06 PM
I have a pair of 496HO motors in my Formula. Great for that application, but it is pretty evident that this platform hasn't been a roaring success when upgraded. I have watched a couple of Raylar projects, and the results have been mixed at best. As for blowers, well, the results speak for themselves. There just aren't many out there.
The guys are right, it is probably the easiest path and most likely cheapest, but for how long?

In regards to the 525 intake, there are very few folks out there that have broken the code on that ECM. The intake and plenum are pure gold because they flow so well, but I wouldn't get too gung-ho about utilizing the rest of the components from that system. If you decide to pursue a deal on one, I wouldn't even bother with those pieces. It would be a good foundation start on a top of a big cube package...

Conquistador_del_mar
08-31-2011, 02:32 AM
Glen,
Here is the setup that you would get for $1500. It came from a low hour engine where the man upgraded to a blown engine. I am sending you an email, too. Bill

yeller
08-31-2011, 03:50 AM
Thanks Bill. Appreciate it.

Fixx, yes I could put a 496HO back in. I could even do it for less $ than $8k. It would be a quick, easy, and painless way to get back on the water..........But, even though my setup ran great, I was never fully comfortable running the S/C on the hyper pistons and no way of programming the ECM. If I have to put money into a new motor, it's not going to be another HO.

When it comes to my boat, when I get my mind set on going a certain direction with something, there is not a lot any one can do to change it. I really appreciate everyones feedback....I truly do. I honestly don't want to offend anyone, but just so we are on the same page, these are the things I will NOT be doing:

Buying a blue motor (unless a deal of the century comes up).
Buying a stock 496
Build a carb'd motor

So that's the direction I've started in. I get the feeling I am the only person that thinks you can get 500~550hp out of a 454/502 for around 10k? So what will it cost then? What pieces would you use?

RT, I know almost nothing of the different computers used on Merc motors (or any motor for that matter). Just by what I see on the web, I think I want a Mefi IV. Why? I don't really know. It just seems to get mentioned a lot with motor builds and seems to be easily programmed. I thought all Merc computers were easily programmed except the 555. What does the 525 use?

I figured I'd end up spending up to a grand to get a complete 502 EFI setup, so for $1500 the set up Bill posted interested me because, even if I didn't need it....it sure is pretty! If I won't be able to use the pieces that come with the 525 setup, then it wouldn't be for me. I just want to buy a complete setup that I can install as is, with the exception of programming the computer.

So if I go with a 454 or 502 EFI setup, are they the same, or is there a difference between the two? Are some years better than others?

Donzi_Dude
08-31-2011, 06:03 AM
What's your suggestions? Can it be done for $10k?
:checkered:


no.

i suggest you dont limit your potential by going with a 502 EFI take off. carb is the way you need to go on a budget.

roadtrip se
08-31-2011, 10:30 AM
Glenn, we can dig into the the details when I finally get to meet you out there in a few weeks. You are on the right track with the ECM, as there are more guys that can work with it, and I am not the only one running older stuff with the 525 hardware. I wouldn't consider any EFI system plug and play, though.

hdsadey
08-31-2011, 12:02 PM
Summit Racing

GM Performance 454 and ZZ454

454 : 8.75 comp, 425 hp 500 tq roller cam forged crank, rods, pistons. Iron heads
$5800

ZZ454 : 9.6 comp, 440 hp 500 tq roller cam forged everything alum, heads $6500

I think these would be a good start to a good build. Change the cam and other componets to marine stuff, find an EFI unit, and you have a platfrom for S/C that will hold up. Personally I rather concentrate on the torque ratings of an engine because thats really what moves you.

handfulz28
08-31-2011, 12:34 PM
Does the 525EFI setup require a crank/cam sensor? I seem to recall reading something about that, as the PCM555 has that ability/requirement? The only thing truly special about the 525EFI heads is the raised exhaust port; IMHO not worth the huge coin for the special exhaust required.
I would think for $10k you could buy/build a 502MAG MPI that puts out 500-550hp without too much stress. Those 500/525EFI intakes are proven to not be worth much over 550-600hp without major work. For that matter, the 454/502MAG MPI intakes probably are at their limit at the 500-550hp level. But if that's where you want to be....

The nice thing about the MAG MPIs is they use the MEFIs which anyone can program with easily available software. How about a 454MAG MPI built out to a 496 with some head work and the right cam? Or just start with the 502 (if you can find it) and put the right cam with mildly massaged heads...will get you the same power as a 500EFI and probably do it without big $$$ CMI exhaust, but maybe Stainless Marine instead.

FWIW, you can shop around for more than just Mercruiser....once upon a time both Volvo and Marine Power offered big blocks (both 454 & 502) with the Arizona Speed & Marine intake. Still haven't verified which heads they used, but the power ratings were the same as the Merc's black motors (385/415). Really just an aesthetic choice probably.

BUIZILLA
08-31-2011, 12:45 PM
Glen,
Here is the setup that you would get for $1500. It came from a low hour engine where the man upgraded to a blown engine. I am sending you an email, too. Bill there's a LOT of good stuff here for $1500.... all that stuff and a ZZ502 long block assy #12371204, upgrade the cam a notch and you got your 550hp realllllly easy and FI to boot

no brainer :pimp:

handfulz28
08-31-2011, 12:46 PM
A big part of my Potter package this year started with the 525 intake. The 500 intake just did not breathe. The 525 does. Plus one for picking up a take-off.
We just used the hardware, not the electronics, and stuck with the 500 stuff.

RTSE, are you at liberty to disclose what the differences are? How much is in the plenum, how much the actual manifold?

As for EFI systems, both Eddie Young and MarK Boos seem to like the Holley hardware with their own MEFI code.

roadtrip se
08-31-2011, 12:50 PM
Those 500/525EFI intakes are proven to not be worth much over 550-600hp without major work. The nice thing about the MAG MPIs is they use the MEFIs which anyone can program with easily available software.

Both my 500 and 525 intakes have seen better results than that. The plenum was flow balanced by a master builder, Ron Potter. The intake for both set-ups is interchangeable. This work did cost, no doubt. As for the heads, you don't have to have the 525 Eddlebrocks to run the 525 intake. The 500 ECM is as programmable as the MAG stuff, but the 525 ECM, not so much. The secret here is to program it on the dyno, not the mail.

roadtrip se
08-31-2011, 12:56 PM
RTSE, are you at liberty to disclose what the differences are? How much is in the plenum, how much the actual manifold?
.


We did the plenum first with the 500, and used it with the 525 intake, second. No changes to the plenum on the second go-around.
The number I have heard is about 4x more flow through the 525 throttle body. It is hard to get anyone to verify this, but if you put
the 500 and 525 intake side-by-side, the difference is night and day in sheer size.

BTW: Buizilla is the one that sent me down the road of investigating air flow on the intake, plenum, and heads. Made all the difference
in the world this season.

blackhawk
08-31-2011, 01:41 PM
FWIW, you can shop around for more than just Mercruiser....once upon a time both Volvo and Marine Power offered big blocks (both 454 & 502) with the Arizona Speed & Marine intake. Still haven't verified which heads they used, but the power ratings were the same as the Merc's black motors (385/415). Really just an aesthetic choice probably.
Volvo also had a 600hp 540ci EFI motor also, it was actually built by Innovation Marine. Tough to find but a couple years ago there was a brand new one for sale.

blackhawk
08-31-2011, 01:49 PM
Everyone's favorite passtime. Spending someone elses money!! :thewave:
So if you didn't already know, my 496HO is offically a boat anchor and I need to build a new motor.
I have until next spring to get a motor done, so I'm not in any immediate rush. For starters, I'm just looking for others ideas.
The only criteria I have is:
Motor must be EFI.
I will need a different ECM and harness.
I will be using my Procharger. I'd go N/A, but I doubt I'd get the HP I want with my budget.
$10k budget (installed, running. Parts and machine work. I'll turn my own wrenches). I can go somewhat more if necessary, but I'd love it if I could do it for less.
What's your suggestions? Can it be done for $10k?
:checkered:

Yeller, how bad is your 496? What about rebuilding it with forged internals and using a MEFI system? A friend toasted his 454 Mag a with a Procharger two years ago and he had Tyler Crockett build him a 502 (his block and crank were junk) using as many of his original parts as possible. Ended up with some good parts, 700hp and close to your budget. Ran on the dyno and then tweaked in the boat using his laptop and a A/F meter.

mrfixxall
09-05-2011, 04:18 PM
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/swap-shop/261700-hp-500-efi.html

yeller
09-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the link Fixx. I'm trying, but I just haven't got over the hump yet of buying someone else's motor sight unseen.

Blackhawk, I didn't want to rebuild my motor because I figured for relatively the same price, I can build a motor with better future potential if I dump the HO block/heads.

mrfixxall
09-05-2011, 06:45 PM
offer him 7k,,take it to your machine shop, seems the heads only have 10 hr on them they should be reusable,,,,have the bottom end done for the 2k and your in a engine for under the 10k that you can bolt your procharger on and wont have to worrie later...

Buddyc
09-05-2011, 07:35 PM
You know, Sometimes you really make good sense Fixx!:yes:

silverghost
09-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Yeller~
This is the sort of Merc Blue Racing engine I was trying to prod you to looking for~

They do pop-up from time to time.

With, or without, your supercharger added to your great yellow Donzi 22 it would be a very hard boat/power combination to beat in my opinion.

Hint~
I would buy the blue engine & sell the lightly used supercharger kit to help pay for the engine rebuild.