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Carl C
08-22-2011, 09:53 PM
We're gonna try to make it downtown by 9:00 AM to hear the mock terrorist bombs and watch the action if we can get close enough. http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/08/22/mock-terror-drill-planned-for-tuesday-on-the-detroit-princess/

Dr. David Fleming
08-25-2011, 12:25 PM
I wonder if we will ever get enough of this drama - I used to think the berlin wall mentality was in Germany between the cold war soviets and USA. Never planned on having it under my nose all the time here in good old America. barb wire restrictions all along the riverfront that used to be full of parks - welcome to lock down America. No computor or cell phone is free from gov surveilance within 9 miles of a US border - thats like most of the city of Detroit. And its nice when they pull me over on the Detroit river for a safety check - I am offically a "captain at sea."

Across the border in Canada they have that great no one cares attitude. Hope they enjoy all the noise and explosions and military in what ought to be another great day of watching the FEDS do it again in the good old USA.

Carl C
08-25-2011, 02:08 PM
I haven't had any problems with them. I was boarded by the Coast Guard a couple weeks ago and a female officer did actually come aboard and looked around the engine room. They were all very polite and professional and the outcome was the usual certificate that says "no violations" and "thank you for promoting safe boating". Just recently we were taking a break at the Detroit River Light and a Border Patrol boat was nearby. They saw me look under the hatch and they came over to ask if we were OK. That's all. No other questions. We talked with them for awhile about their awesome boat and I told them we were taking a break on our way to Put-in-Bay. I saw them the next morning in PIB's harbor and stopped to say hi. Frankly I'm glad to see these guys out there. As far as the exercise, the river was closed to recreational craft so we shot back north and into Lake Huron. Ran 2-3 footers the whole time and racked up about 120-130 miles. That was a riot but took a lot of concentration to drive fast over that water! Good times! :)

Dr. David Fleming
08-25-2011, 03:28 PM
Its good to always carry your passport. Basically, they are polite - unless you happen to get one on a bad day or don't mind police, sheriff, border patrol, coast guard supervision CONSTANTLY of about everything you are doing.

By the way I don't know how they closed the Canadian side of the river they have no juridiction over there. They can only interfere with boaters on the American side. So you see, they changed your holiday by intimidation - man I wouldn't have stood it! - Closed an international river! Maybe the Canadians were part of it. Did you see any Canadian Coast Guard - I doubt the Canadians would stop boating for what the Americans were doing. Of course I wasn't there.

I was in the Canadian Channel east of Belle Isle - the Fleming Channel - a Canadian boater was broke down and flagged me for assistance or a tow - he was in the international shipping lane and vulnerable to being hit by river traffic. I told him I would stand by but couldn't help unless absolutely necessary. If I did I would have to go down river to Wyandotte and process through imigration to re-enter the United States. Same if I bought gas or even threw out an anchor in Canadian water.


Was over at my local marina - Island Harbor - Border Patrol rolled up drew guns - kept watching for some boat that might come into the harbor. Were rude to the owner of the marina and myself who were busy boating. I mean we are not at war after all. Went away about as fast as they came - didn't talk to us when we asked what they wanted. They were on his private property. What an ego trip.


Before 9/11 none of this went on. I mean if you really screwed up, like smuggling, you were in trouble but the police work was subtle and unseen so as to not offend everybody. Guess I grew up in the 1950's and 60's when all we worried about was the bomb or ICBM coming over to Selfridge AFB from the soviets. America was famous for its free and friendly border with the USA - was almost one country. Crossed many times with only a wave of a hand from the border officers - never needed a passport, or any ID. Still that way going into Canada.

All this American muscle flexing seems like just a big drama - and would like to see the tax bill for it - bet the terrorists are laughing at the bang they got for their buck from the good old paranoid USA. Thanks George Bush for using any emergency to give us a police state. When they bombed Pearl Harbor it was a lot worse and we just went and kicked the **** out of them until they couldn't stand any more. Give me the old time America it was good enough for me.

Carl C
08-25-2011, 06:20 PM
Sounds like they don't like you Dr. D ;)
http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx275/CARLC222/DSCN0326.jpg

Carl C
08-25-2011, 07:19 PM
1,200 HP and front & aft gun mounts :fire: http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx275/CARLC222/DSCN0328.jpg

Zinger
08-25-2011, 09:01 PM
Nice to see are tax dollars at work.

Dr. David Fleming
08-26-2011, 11:07 PM
Well I guess they like me as well as about anyone - am polite - just into personal freedom and liberty - get tired of the bullet proof vests, shoulder mikes, pistols, military boots and sunglasses, duel gun mounts and my Donzi will out run their cop boat. "And no you can't search my car, home or boat. Further, I am not answering a lot of questions past yes or no." Yes I have a personal flotation device, my horn works, I have a throwable cushion, and flares, and my fire extinguisher is in the engine compartment next to the three kilos of ilegal drugs and two foreign nationals I am smuggling. Been through this same converstaion about three times a year for the last three years.

You don't need to carry a drivers license while boating, just some personal ID and registration. "No officer I'm not carrying my drivers license." Last time I checked the Sheriff does not patrol the water with officers - just volunteer deputy personel who usually know next to nothing about police work. Make pretty good cowboys though. Oh how they love to wear the badge and see the smiles when they get to turn on the blue lights.

"Why are you boating in the Rouge River? I don't know, because its got water in it." We would prefer if you stayed out of there! Why? Because its dirty. Ok officer, thanks! Have a nice day!"

In England, Canada, etc. individual persons are "subjects of the crown." America when founded, the imigrants wanted freedom from all this crap - citizens with individual rights - great pains were used to give exeptional freedoms to you - so exercise them. While you can there is always some legislator somewhere working day and night to trim them back for you. And some lawyer or the ACLU working to give them back.

I do enjoy boating in Canada - has about zero law enforcement. Reminds me of the USA before 2000.

roadtrip se
08-27-2011, 10:00 AM
Interesting thing. I have spent a lot of time Down River this summer testing and setting up my boat. I have never been stopped, but it could be that I never let one of these guys catch up with me long enough to pull over. I am also normally suited up in a Lifeline and behave like a responsible boater at all times, so I don't draw any attention to myself. As for those laid back Canadians, at least during my informal surveys, they typically have more patrol boats running around out there from every possible government agency imaginable, than we do. The Border Patrol does do circuts at our launch site. I could care less, as I have nothing to hide. I just wave and smile at all of them.

Carl C
08-27-2011, 10:16 AM
Interesting thing. I have spent a lot of time Down River this summer testing and setting up my boat. I have never been stopped, but it could be that I never let one of these guys catch up with me long enough to pull over. I am also normally suited up in a Lifeline and behave like a responsible boater at all times, so I don't draw any attention to myself. As for those laid back Canadians, at least during my informal surveys, they typically have more patrol boats running around out there from every possible government agency imaginable, than we do. The Border Patrol does do circuts at our launch site. I could care less, as I have nothing to hide. I just wave and smile at all of them.

Exactly. Dr.D, maybe your attitude is part of the problem! If their vessel says "homeland security" then they do have the right to search your boat. In fact they can take your boat and drill it full of holes if they think there might be a hidden compartment. I would start being nicer and carrying your driver's license. These guys have always been good to me and I'm glad to see them. Todd, you can't out-run the helicopter that they would call in! And, yes, they like to see life jackets in use. I always slow down and look back to see if they want me to stop. If you wave make it a quick hand up so they don't think you are hailing them. That's what I tell my passengers so they don't start waving like crazy! :)

FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack
08-27-2011, 10:34 AM
"Why are you boating in the Rouge River? I don't know, because its got water in it."
:lol9: Priceless!

tmdog
08-27-2011, 11:16 AM
:lol9: Priceless!



+2

Dr. D. . . . . .My kind of guy. :yes:

Ghost
08-27-2011, 12:25 PM
Exactly. Dr.D, maybe your attitude is part of the problem! If their vessel says "homeland security" then they do have the right to search your boat.

I'm with the doctor. Respectfully Carl, I would offer a nuanced point but an extremely important one: what they have is the *power* to search your boat, not the *right* to do so. The world sees plenty of bad law, usually in the fine print, and this is no exception. Nothing in the highest law of our land says our government or its citizens in our waters are excepted from that highest law and the protections it affords. Including those protections against search without probable cause. There are larger discussions implicit in all of this, as we are in the intersection of boating and politics, so it makes sense for me to stop before departing that confluence.

mattyboy
08-27-2011, 04:27 PM
sorry I see some of the responses here as FLIPPANT, and EXACTLY the attitude that will give our enemies the oppotunity to inflict greater damage than their last attack.

the midwestern attitude might be "we are not at war". where I live is most definetly "at war" on a daily basis. We will soon mark a decade since the attacks on the US . Several attempts to strike at NY again have been foiled and if it was done by a nosey citizen,a stand up citizen, or homeland security listening to cell phones OR checking boats coming from Canadian waters that might annoy some boaters I could give a bald ratz azz.

These drills or drama as you say, Have come to save lives here in NY. In the aftermath of 9-11 here in NY drills have prepared Gov't and private organizations to react,respond and to save lives. The most notible occassion was the "miracle on the hudson" emergency responders as well as ferry boat pilots went into action seconds after without hesitation or indecision they reacted THAT'S WHAT THEY TRAINED AND DRILLED FOR. That landing by the skill and talent of the pilot might not be remembered had they fallen victim to the frigid waters and current of the hudson river during the winter.


I have been pulled out of the traffic going into one of the cities tunnels during my commute in my company vehicle on a few occassions. Did it mess up my day well maybe it is a part of living here yes, I have boxes and electronics they want to know what I have before I go into the tunnel or city.

I think if most here would spend an hour or two stuck in one of the NYC tunnels a couple of hundred feet under the hudson looking at a rent a van driven a person of islamic origins, you would come to appreciate the job most of the police and "homeland security" are doing.

silverghost
08-27-2011, 04:43 PM
Well stated Matty !
Better to "Be Prepared" for any emergency~~~
Than to be caught unsuspecting & flat footed; like we were 10 years ago on 9/11 .

I don;t mind being stopped once in a while.

I for one sleep better at night knowing these great folks are on the job helping keeping the USA safe.

Ghost
08-27-2011, 04:50 PM
sorry I see some of the responses here as FLIPPANT, and EXACTLY the attitude that will give our enemies the oppotunity to inflict greater damage than their last attack.

the midwestern attitude might be "we are not at war". where I live is most definetly "at war" on a daily basis. We will soon mark a decade since the attacks on the US . Several attempts to strike at NY again have been foiled and if it was done by a nosey citizen,a stand up citizen, or homeland security listening to cell phones OR checking boats coming from Canadian waters that might annoy some boaters I could give a bald ratz azz.

These drills or drama as you say, Have come to save lives here in NY. In the aftermath of 9-11 here in NY drills have prepared Gov't and private organizations to react,respond and to save lives. The most notible occassion was the "miracle on the hudson" emergency responders as well as ferry boat pilots went into action seconds after without hesitation or indecision they reacted THAT'S WHAT THEY TRAINED AND DRILLED FOR. That landing by the skill and talent of the pilot might not be remembered had they fallen victim to the frigid waters and current of the hudson river during the winter.


I have been pulled out of the traffic going into one of the cities tunnels during my commute in my company vehicle on a few occassions. Did it mess up my day well maybe it is a part of living here yes, I have boxes and electronics they want to know what I have before I go into the tunnel or city.

I think if most here would spend an hour or two stuck in one of the NYC tunnels a couple of hundred feet under the hudson looking at a rent a van driven a person of islamic origins, you would come to appreciate the job most of the police and "homeland security" are doing.


Matty,

I'll be happy to discuss such things offline, just shoot me a PM if you like. But the man who owns this place has told us that this is not the place, so I won't address your post here.

However, sticking with the clear intersection of boating and law, I'd ask one question: which of our members would gladly submit to having a bunch of holes drilled in his boat for doing nothing more than cruising the Detroit River, and would walk away saying "hey, they had a right to do it and were just doing their job" and "I'm fine with that" and "I feel safer for it."

Show of hands?

Mike

Carl C
08-27-2011, 05:50 PM
I am totally with Matt on this one. All of my encounters with various law enforcement on the international waters have been cordial and professional. These guys are welcome on my boat anytime. The drilling thing is extreme and rare but I have heard of it happening. Just be nice to these people and any encounter should be pleasant.

Ghost
08-27-2011, 06:01 PM
I am totally with Matt on this one. All of my encounters with various law enforcement on the international waters have been cordial and professional. These guys are welcome on my boat anytime. The drilling thing is extreme and rare but I have heard of it happening. Just be nice to these people and any encounter should be pleasant.

I think that is likely to be the case, and it is far better than the alternative.

That said, do you think they have the right (not just the power) to search you and the right to drill holes in your boat, just because you are out on the water? More to the point, IF they did that, would you walk away smiling, content that they were right to do so? That was the question.

Carl C
08-27-2011, 08:08 PM
I think that is likely to be the case, and it is far better than the alternative.

That said, do you think they have the right (not just the power) to search you and the right to drill holes in your boat, just because you are out on the water? More to the point, IF they did that, would you walk away smiling, content that they were right to do so? That was the question.

Ghost, in these times I'm afraid that they need these rights. I have read horror stories of boats being taken and drilled full of holes. It is rare and if it happened to me my views would probably change. Thing is, they've always been nice to me. The Coast guard asked me to report any suspicious activity or "overloaded" boats. It makes for interesting boating on these waters for sure! We have been seeing a ton of law enforcement vessels of all sizes and many agencies. I don't have anything to worry about; There is no speed limit and no enforced noise levels. Yay!

Ghost
08-27-2011, 08:57 PM
Ghost, in these times I'm afraid that they need these rights. I have read horror stories of boats being taken and drilled full of holes. It is rare and if it happened to me my views would probably change. Thing is, they've always been nice to me. The Coast guard asked me to report any suspicious activity or "overloaded" boats. It makes for interesting boating on these waters for sure! We have been seeing a ton of law enforcement vessels of all sizes and many agencies. I don't have anything to worry about...

Carl, I truly commend you for your candor. And I agree with your statement that if it happened to you, your views would change.

I sincerely offer that Googling Martin Niemöller would be of use at some point.

Regards,

Mike

Zinger
08-27-2011, 09:08 PM
Carl,
That's pretty cool does the coast guard give you a badge or something. Homeland security is a must we should never let our guard down, but to do damage to are personal property is not right. Man I will hear more on this tread but have your ever seen one of these agencies actually helping anyone?

mattyboy
08-27-2011, 09:49 PM
Matty,

I'll be happy to discuss such things offline, just shoot me a PM if you like. But the man who owns this place has told us that this is not the place, so I won't address your post here.

However, sticking with the clear intersection of boating and law, I'd ask one question: which of our members would gladly submit to having a bunch of holes drilled in his boat for doing nothing more than cruising the Detroit River, and would walk away saying "hey, they had a right to do it and were just doing their job" and "I'm fine with that" and "I feel safer for it."

Show of hands?

Mike


Ummm Sorry no discussion offline, If you wanted to honor the wishes of the site owner why not shot me a note or PM then talk offline ????why the need to then editorialize after wards?????


Sorry I have seen you and others here take your political views and opinion then run them up the flag pole when it goes your way and then protest when it doesn't


I'd be happy to discuss here or anywhere how post 911 politics,economy,and emotions have changed the day to day lives of everyone who lives( or lived) in my area.

Life , Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness! I think it was written in that order for a reason!

Sweet Cheekz
08-27-2011, 10:49 PM
Ask the south Florida guys how things have changed down there in the last 10 years. As much as the East Coast I bet but they are just doing a tough job and I have always found that Carl's aproach is the one that works Nice as can be and hope they dont bust out the power tools!
God bless them for a thankless job

Parnell

Ghost
08-28-2011, 12:40 AM
Ummm Sorry no discussion offline, If you wanted to honor the wishes of the site owner why not shot me a note or PM then talk offline ????why the need to then editorialize after wards?????!Clearly you have misunderstood my intent when you complain that I "editorialize[d] afterwards." The separate paragraph I added after my note to you had nothing to do with your post and returned directly to to Carl's comments regarding searching and drilling holes into boats with no probable cause. The purpose of my note to you was simply to explain for all WHY I didn't respond to your post, because it strayed into pure political discussion. If you are confused about this because of the start of my post listing you as addressee, that makes sense. Please accept my apologies for the confusion.
Sorry I have seen you and others here take your political views and opinion then run them up the flag pole when it goes your way and then protest when it doesn't No offense, but this is simply incorrect if you are describing me. I posted a LOT in the political section here when Scot himself created it. When he canned it, I shut up as he asked. If I have since stepped over the line, it was despite trying to abide by his rules AND it was only in response to another post. Unlike you, who as recently as your last two posts, overtly displays and admits a willingness to talk about anything regardless of the OWNER's directions. More on this below.
I'd be happy to discuss here or anywhere how post 911 politics,economy,and emotions have changed the day to day lives of everyone who lives( or lived) in my area. Again you make my point for me. You are emphatic that you would be "happy" to discuss post 911 politics and more right HERE, despite the direct instruction of the site's owner. And yet you will not discuss it "anywhere", as you claim. You yourself just stated you won't talk about it offline. (And as an aside, I actually live next door to the Naval Academy, and a mere 20 miles east of DC. And the places I work and commute are even more directly in the heart of purported high-profile terror targets. When work strays from the DC area it's usually up the Amtrak line to Penn Station and Manhattan. I know the industry of "security" and the money involved far better than most. So you needn't waste any of your area's "daily lives" discussion here--it won't add any new information to the conversation.)
Life , Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness! I think it was written in that order for a reason!Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death." I will leave as an exercise for the reader the evaluation of your unambiguous and emphatic prioritization of life over liberty. (Well, in hindsight, I seem to have dropped the reader a bit of a hint. ;) )

Regards,

Mike

Carl C
08-28-2011, 09:33 AM
If the discussion is kept on topic regarding patrolling our SHORELINES, then I don't see how it is breaking the rules.

Ghost
08-28-2011, 09:40 AM
If the discussion is kept on topic regarding patrolling our SHORELINES, then I don't see how it is breaking the rules.

Agreed. Post 14 gets WAY off of this, which is why I wanted to let people know why I wouldn't respond here, but would happily respond offline.

Mike

roadtrip se
08-28-2011, 11:07 AM
I think anyone that gives a law officer a hard time under some arrogant, self-centered, sense of entitlement deserves to be drilled, either literally or figuratively. Ask anyone that knows me, I can be one of the most irreverent, passive-aggressives you could ever meet, but what is the point? If you are in the right, then your rights will prevail. If you go on the offensive, then you must be hiding something, and will most likely draw the additional attention that you deserve. All of the cowboy and don't tread on me talk is complete BS, if all it does is take a non-event and turn it into one. You get what you deserve.

As for BOATING in Detroit, Jill and I were out scouting the East side yesterday for covered marina space, as we contemplate moving our Formula to Michigan. Not a done deal by any means, but we certainly wouldn't be contemplating this move, if we had to encounter some oppressive law presence, which I have simply not seen here, after many hours on the water this summer.

Ghost
08-28-2011, 05:57 PM
I don't understand--I think people are talking about different things.

Say a guy, guilty of nothing but going out in his boat for fun, gets stopped, questioned on the purpose of his movements, searched, and his boat drilled into and thus, damaged, with no compensation. All without a warrant. (No different from cops coming to your house and turning it inside out, smashing walls, again with no warrant. If you say to the cop on your doorstep "none of your business, you can search my house if you have a warrant," you are not being arrogant. You are simply not caving to an unreasonable search and questioning. It's ridiculous to tell people "hey, be polite and submit. If you've got nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear from our turning your house upside down." Same principle on the street. Same principle on your boat.)

Who's giving whom the hard time agian? Demanding one's right to privacy and against search without probable cause, and DAMAGE to one's property is not an arrogant sense of entitlement.

I'm confused. We must be talking about different scenarios.

Sweet Cheekz
08-28-2011, 08:40 PM
I am just guessing that is not going to happen without a really good reason but I can assume everyone on here would be out of their minds pissed if that happened without just cause.

Parnell

Carl C
08-28-2011, 09:04 PM
I don't understand--I think people are talking about different things.
Say a guy, guilty of nothing but going out in his boat for fun, gets stopped, questioned on the purpose of his movements, searched, and his boat drilled into and thus, damaged, with no compensation. All without a warrant. (No different from cops coming to your house and turning it inside out, smashing walls, again with no warrant. If you say to the cop on your doorstep "none of your business, you can search my house if you have a warrant," you are not being arrogant. You are simply not caving to an unreasonable search and questioning. It's ridiculous to tell people "hey, be polite and submit. If you've got nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear from our turning your house upside down." Same principle on the street. Same principle on your boat.)
Who's giving whom the hard time agian? Demanding one's right to privacy and against search without probable cause, and DAMAGE to one's property is not an arrogant sense of entitlement.
I'm confused. We must be talking about different scenarios.

lol, It's not that bad! What happens is that the CG boat will turn on the blue light and come along your port side and tie up. They will ask if you have any weapons and if you have ever been boarded before. All you need to do is be friendly and help them tie up and do as they ask. They will check life vests and safety equipment. They will check the driver/owner's I.D. They may or may not actually come aboard and look around, usually not on a small boat. They will ask what your plans are for the day. They will run your license and print you up a boarding certificate that you can show if you get lit up again. I usually get boarded once per year and have never had an encounter with any of the other agencies. I have not heard of any boats getting cut up on the Great Lakes. There was at least one case in Florida but I have to believe there were special circumstances. Hey, there is a real risk of something bad being smuggled across this liquid border. Also, Matty's post was fine. He is from New York and a little more passionate about this than others.

BUIZILLA
08-28-2011, 09:17 PM
your boat is NOT going to get arbitrarily drilled on speculation, and it certainly won't be done at sea..... with that said, I think this is getting blown wayyyyyy out of proportion and reality.

just my .02

olredalert
08-28-2011, 10:49 PM
-----As an aside, I can tell you that the Fino I bought two years ago in southeast Florida has un-needed access holes in various places because the Florida owner did not want anybody drilling into seemingly inaccessable areas of the boat. He was obviously worried about being boarded. He told me when I asked about these holes that he had heard of numerous problems related to this.......Bill S

Ghost
08-29-2011, 01:43 AM
For starters, I don't expect anyone to even read this. I'm basically writing to organize my own thoughts. But, since I bothered to type it out, if anyone is interested, quite a few things came to mind. And with what I saw as a lot of confusion, I tried to provide plenty of explanation.

Well, the good news is that though we may have to agree to disagree, I see where we are at least to a degree, talking about different things. On the one hand, earlier, it was clear Carl was saying it was appropriate for them to have the ability to go as far as drilling holes in an innocent person's boat simply if they choose to, just because that person was on the water, with no other probable cause. To which I objected, and always will. And perhaps he didn't mean that, but it's what was posted. Here's how I got under that impression:


...do you think they have the right (not just the power) to search you and the right to drill holes in your boat, just because you are out on the water?


Ghost, in these times I'm afraid that they need these rights.

After a few other messages that implicitly but not explicitly responded to my request for a show of hands on my point (the premise that it is appropriate for them to have the power to drill holes in someone's boat with no probable cause), the waters had gotten muddier again. Some folks seem to be saying it is appropriate for them to be able to do anything they want, with no probable cause whatsoever. Others seem to be saying they need to show cause and won't do anything more than ask to see your safety gear.

I tried to be very clear about my scenario, and thought it should be a slam dunk that nobody in his right mind would say it was APPROPRIATE for them to have to legal authority to do anything, up to and including damaging your boat, with no warrant and no probable cause. Perhaps if all the answers to this specific question were themselves clear and specific, we might find that it really is a slam dunk, nobody really buys into this sort of abuse, that nobody even believes it is the current state of the rules of engagement, and thus nothing would be blown out of proportion (as Jim noted) other then my (hopefully) ridiculous scenario itself.

Aside from Carl and Parnell's differing but clear answers (thanks for these, BTW) to this specific question, rather than simply give the nod to my premise, people have been talking about other things, not making it all that clear how they stand on the scenario I described. Even Carl's most recent post makes me wonder if he has retreated on the exchange I just quoted above. Oh well.
For the record, because it still sounds to me like I am hearing that some people DO believe authorities should be able to do anything they want, I will bother writing the rest of this post. My hope is that it clarifies things, and people don't really believe what it sounded like they believe.

Anyone who studies the history of searches closely will conclude that with boat searches governed (or, more rightly not governed) by the "rights" Carl said were needed above, ANYTHING authorities choose to do will backfilled with completely invented probable cause. Everything is at the discretion of the guy with the flashing lights and the 50 cal, and nobody is protected from unreasonable search by anything other than the guy in blue's good nature, his not having a fight with his wife that morning and taking it out on you, etc. This is itself, lawlessness, and not a good thing in my view. Woe be and good luck to anyone who is abused. And in MANY recent documented cases, police have seized the cell phones of witnesses and deleted any video or audio of the events, just so nobody could use real proof to show the searches were unwarranted and abusive. They have even passed laws making it illegal to record the events of an encouter with authorites. VERY dangerous. Let's hope it stays off the water, if it isn't there already.

So, while I always remain polite in such encounters and am pleased to the extent that authorities do as well, I think the current ground rules are obviously bad: No real legal protection for the boater. He is at the complete mercy of the authorities, with nothing but hope that nobody abuses him. What are the boater's rights? What questions is he required to answer? What will be done to him if he rightfully refuses to answer questions that should never have been asked?

And aside from the principle of freedom from search without a warrant or CLEAR probable cause on scene, I would also ask to what extent such on-water stops, and lines of questioning, are likely to protect anyone from anything. When asked what his plans are, what are the chances of having the terrorist tip his hand? Pretty slim.

FAR more likely (easily thousands of times more likely, maybe even millions of times more likely) is that someone who is legitimate but annoyed will have authorities dislike his "attitude" and use their overwhelming power to make his life miserable, going as far as they care to within their power.

Think I'm wrong? Check out the government's own study of its advanced search provisions of post 911 legislation. Special types of warrants that everyone knew were way beyond our legal standards were justified on terrorism grounds, with the promise they would ONLY be used in terror cases. The audit of these very warrants issued in 2008 showed that of 763 warrants, only 3 (yes, three!) were for terrorism investigations. Why would carte blanche authority on the water be any different?

I'd ask anyone to ponder this a lot before deciding how long giving all this extra discretion to maritime authorities, with no protection for the boater, will take before abuse is commonplace. What they OUGHT to do is schedule any safety inspections as part of any registration process, and leave you alone on the water unless:
you aren't displaying valid and current registration info on your hull
you are operating a foreign vessel in our waters (essentially the same as #1)
the craft you are operating is reported stolen
you are clearly breaking the law (planing through a 6, baby with no lifejacket, dumping oil, etc)
you appear to be in distress
I'm all for keeping our waters safe. But I think it is clear that the near limitless search authority on the water discussed in this thread, without warrants and without probable cause, makes us far less safe, not more. Over time, such rules of engagement naturally lead to more and more adversarial relationships between the authorities and the boater. We've already seen a lot of this just with how some have approached noise laws on the water. I seem to recall a fair amount of complaint from many on this board, where the police have a "we can do anything we want" attitude. Not to say some don't break the laws also. And a separate subject is whether the laws themselves are justified.

But I am focused on the extent to which, tipping the scales of the power of authorities over the rights of the boater tends to sour the relationship over time. Even with good, law-abiding people like us who have the best of intentions. Doubt me? Take a look at inner city police-citizen relations. Even the law-abiding are often suspicious of the police, won't help them, fear them, and consider them an invading force. When they should be on the same side. Didn't used to be this way. This is why I say it makes us less safe.

If anyone has any new insights or specific info on the RULES and LIMITS officially issued to the authorities on the water, that would be an interesting addition to the discussion. Thanks for the thoughts,
Mike

Carl C
08-29-2011, 07:52 AM
I am not withdrawing at all from my assertion that Homeland Security needs broad power. These are not a bunch of yahoos, they are trained military personnel. The local police agencies must follow the rules. These are bad times we live in and a lot of radicals would like to attack this country again. That's all. Short answer to a long post! Going up north for a couple days and have a big day planned on these international waters Thursday. Just know the rules and be properly equipped and prepared and thank these guys for the job they are doing. No flare guns or open alcohol in Ontario btw.

Sweet Cheekz
08-29-2011, 08:49 AM
In my humble opinion the only reason Carl is not boarded more is because the Arabs have paid off homeland security to leave their number one petrol user in the midwestern states alone as to not drop oil consumption persipitously

Parnell

roadtrip se
08-29-2011, 09:27 AM
and I can't really find anything in your points that I disagree with. My point all along is that none of this is happening, including the arbitrary boat hole drilling judgement call, here in Detroit. We did have one alien decide to try to swim the St Clair River channel, stupid in its self due to currents, traffic, and a myriad of other reasons, and it was all over the media. I sincerely doubt that enforcement abuse could be kept covered up for any time at all, if it was prevelant.

There simply hasn't been a problem with the stepped-up law presence. So the conversation, while interesting, is theoretical at best.

Now, like Carl, I have to pay my gas bill....

Ghost
08-29-2011, 10:36 AM
...My point all along is that none of this is happening, including the arbitrary boat hole drilling judgement call, here in Detroit...

Good to hear, that's the best news of all in the current situation.

handfulz28
08-29-2011, 01:58 PM
your boat is NOT going to get arbitrarily drilled on speculation, and it certainly won't be done at sea..... with that said, I think this is getting blown wayyyyyy out of proportion and reality.

just my .02

+1

Actually kinda funny....that Mike took something Carl posted as near-gospel and ran with it. :D

If anybody had their property destroyed without cause, and without finding something, it'd be all over the news. Can't seem to ever hear of that happening.

Ghost
08-29-2011, 03:32 PM
+1

Actually kinda funny....that Mike took something Carl posted as near-gospel and ran with it. :D

If anybody had their property destroyed without cause, and without finding something, it'd be all over the news. Can't seem to ever hear of that happening.

LOL, and quite a bit at myself.

FlatRacer, aka BarrelBack
09-01-2011, 01:50 PM
These are not a bunch of yahoos, they are trained military personnel.

Maybe where you live, but I'm here to tell you what I have witnessed with my own two eyes. I was competing at a (combined drag and circle) race in New Jersey, where the Coast Guard was patrolling for us, helping keep spectator boats off the course. All of a sudden, while one of our drag boats was starting a 100+ mph pass, the CG boat takes off across the race course in front of the racer, kicking up a 3' roller in the process!
Apoplectic with rage, I threw my helmet into the bottom of my boat, headed for the ramp and left the race. I did not complain about the incident, because it's the CG that holds all the cards. We could not race without their approval, so who's ass do you chew out?
In my time I've witnessed some major league bone headed maneuvers by all kinds of law enforcement personnel, so don't be so eager to place them on a pedestal. They need a watchdog just like the rest of us!

Eric