Is a job an entitlement?

[gcarter]

As many of you know, Elaine and I are in the water treatment business in Central Florida (Leesburg, FL). In the last three years, we've gone from four service people down to two. New housing has been non-existant, unemployment hovers around 11.5%, and we've osmosed into a company that supplies replacement equipment rather than new equipment for new homes.
Anyway, recently, one of my two service guys left us and moved to kansas to take advantage of a family business opportunity.
After running an ad in the local paper for a replacement, we found many respondents. I had to select one out of about four that were acceptable (I thought).
Anyway, after about six weeks of training, the new guy didn't show up on Monday. No phone call, email, smoke signal, or any comunication at all.
We couldn't reach him either. We had to assume he was gone and pulled some other applications out of the file. The next two applicants were still looking and were glad to get a call from us. I chose the one that had been my original second choice.
Tuesday morning came and the truant showed up ready to go to work and was shocked to find out he'd been terminated. He claimed he'd been ill and couldn't come to work and had no excuse for not calling us.
He acted as though he was entitled to keep his job and we were wrong to terminate him.
We use a leasing company for our employees and my office manager showed him in the employee guide that the first item item for "self termination" was "No show-No call".
Still, the most amazing thing was his attitude of entitlement, and that we were completely wrong to terminate him!!!!!
Where does this come from, and how prevalent is it?
Is it a national phenomina?

[Carl C]

The heck with him. Not showing up and not calling is about the worst thing an employee can do. He was hired and he was fired. Move on.

[McGary911]

Maybe he learned something. I hope the next new guy works out better.

[Conquistador_del_mar]

My wife has been a retail manager for about 35 years. She has tons of stories along the same line - some people are unbelievable in what they do and expect after not showing or notifying (sometimes for the first day of employment). I have worked for very few companies over the years, but I always got a kick out of them telling me how punctual I was. I never thought about not making it to work, even if I was not feeling well. My belief has always been if someone is going to pay me, I owe them my best possible efforts. Many of the younger people have developed a different attitude from what I have heard from my wife and others.
If you were to let that guy's first day of not showing slide, you would be setting yourself up for many more disappointments in the future. Just my opinion. Bill

[Buddyc]

Most people these do feel entitled George. I dont know where it comes from? I have had up to 7 guys working for me and the drama they caused was unbareable... Maybe thats where my grey came from..lol
I once had a guy, that was a great painter finish a job for me at a clients house. No more that a 2 hour job... I got a phone call from my client in a fit of rage because when she came home she found him sleeping ( or passed out) on her couch... Yes sleeping on her couch! What do you say to a person??? At the time she owed me almost $10,000 for the work completed. I took almost $3800 off the balance to make things right.
Believe it or not, sleeping beauty was pissed I fired him... I said fine, you can keep your job just gve me the $3800 I lost. Needless to say he was in my rearview mirror from that point on.

[tmh]

The public schools teach that there is always a second and third chance. Kids can get low C grades on tests and the kids can still get an A for an overall grade with homework, extra credit, and dropping the lowest test. In Collier County, Fl homework is not allowed to be counted this year as its not fair to grade homework. Everyone might not have the same opportunity to complete the homework.

[Greg Guimond]

This is precisely why on the Global Stage we are having our lunch eaten daily.

[zelatore]

I've had it happen as well. A few years ago I hired a young guy as an entry level service tech/general laborer. After a couple of weeks one day he just didn't come in. I couldn't reach him for about a week, then magically he just showed up again. Needless to say I handed him his last check and told him to hit the road. He actually didn't seem particularly upset about it. Of course, that was when unemployment wasn't 12% in CA too.

I see it all the time - young kids who have a huge sense of entitlement. Part of me says it's just the usual looking down on the next generation (back in my day....) but I really do think it's a national phenomenon.

I don't know how many times I've heard my boss's kid telling people how he's done everything himself and nobody's given him a thing. Uh, let's see, daddy gave you a place to live (he lives at our delta office), gave you a car (our old service truck, which he's wrecked 3 times at least), paid for all your school, and now gives you a job as 'manager' of the office you now live in. He usually gets up around 11 or noon, smokes a joint, then clocks in and plays around half-assed doing 'work' for an hour or two before going out to run 'errands'. Daddy also put up well into the 6-figures trying to keep him out of jail as a minor for drug offenses.

Yeah, he's a self made man all right.

On the plus side, the kid is much better than he used to be. At least I don't think the police are going to come for him any time soon these days. Maybe he's learned a little. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Phil S]

You sure don't need me to tell you did exactly the right thing, but you did GC. Hopefully, your newest, new employee works out for you and your business will grow by your decision, mentoring, and excellent business acumen.

Not trying to turn this into a politicized topic, but willing to say, and thankful for, employers like you, that keep our economy bumping along these days....struggling at times at best, but still willing to risk everything to keep their business going, employing others to do so, and somehow making ends meet for themselves as well. (biggest run-on sentence ever..and dam proud of it).

One is "entitled" to go hungry and be homeless if they are not willing to carry their own weight in this world...much less, actually show up for work in my book. :shocking:

Be prepared for the next step though....trip to the local EEOC office or Unemployment Commission hearing that you will inevitably be called to as obviously, this is a clear case of discrimination of some sort.....sheesh !!:nilly:

WKR,

Phil S.

[Tony]

The public schools teach that there is always a second and third chance.

I'm pretty certain this is not one of the objectives found in any public school curriculum.

Within reason, I feel that allowing students to learn from their mistakes is an important part of their development. "Firm but fair" is one of my mantras, and most middle school students respond well to it. (Probably because they don't get it at home...and it is important to them!)


Kids can get low C grades on tests and the kids can still get an A for an overall grade with homework, extra credit, and dropping the lowest test.

This doesn't happen in my class, or in our school, or in my wife's class, or in her school.


In Collier County, Fl homework is not allowed to be counted this year as its not fair to grade homework. Everyone might not have the same opportunity to complete the homework.

Crazy rule, if true. There is, however, a difference between "not allowed to be counted" and "not fair to grade". You can give credit for homework completed, and not grade it for quality.

Homework is usually intended to reinforce the day's lesson, and students are expected to give their best effort to do so. Struggling with homework should signal a student needs extra instruction, whereupon a good teacher does so.

[Tony]

This is precisely why on the Global Stage we are having our lunch eaten daily.

Not true.
If researching...be sure to compare apples to apples.

[silverghost]

I wonder if the workers in China would try to get away with not showing-up for days ?
I'd bet not ...

[Phil S]

Sorry, got sidetracked and didn't answer your questions...

"Liberals", "very", and "yes". :nilly::bonk:

WKR,

Phil S.

[Phil S]

If that was too political....I apologize Scot.

Well wishes,

Phil S.

[zelatore]

I must have missed something, but I'm wondering what the question was if the answer was 'liberals'.

ooohhhhh....sometimes I miss the political section. Nothing like a good argument to stir things up!

[Ghost]

George, you are probably way ahead of me on this, but this sounds like it was a real blessing. (Of course it stinks that the new hire was a loser, but great to find out for certain before wasting any more of your time, or worse, subjecting any customers and your company reputation to his impending misdeeds.)

Much like one of the great keys to successful salesmen: losing early.

[Phil S]

Where does this come from, and how prevalent is it?
Is it a national phenomina?
For clarification purposes...my answer to GC stepped over the line, and I apologize to you both. It was my opinion, and I injected my personal political influence upon it, and I apologize. I don't, however apologize for my view on GC's decision, sorry.
Not trying to stir things up Zel, take my apology sincerely.
Phil S.

[gcarter]

I'm pretty certain this is not one of the objectives found in any public school curriculum.

Within reason, I feel that allowing students to learn from their mistakes is an important part of their development. "Firm but fair" is one of my mantras, and most middle school students respond well to it. (Probably because they don't get it at home...and it is important to them!)



This doesn't happen in my class, or in our school, or in my wife's class, or in her school.



Crazy rule, if true. There is, however, a difference between "not allowed to be counted" and "not fair to grade". You can give credit for homework completed, and not grade it for quality.

Homework is usually intended to reinforce the day's lesson, and students are expected to give their best effort to do so. Struggling with homework should signal a student needs extra instruction, whereupon a good teacher does so.

Tony, i want to thank you for your input, I was wondering what your opinion would be.

[Ghost]

I'm pretty certain this is not one of the objectives found in any public school curriculum.

I'm pretty certain exploding into a fireball of death was not one of the objectives of the Hindenburg. ;)

[Greg Guimond]

My point is that on the whole each generation of Americans have lost the work ethic that I'm sure each of our grandparents had in spades whether white collar or blue collar. Look to many other countries and you'll find that they are willing to work harder and longer then our kids on average. It isn't anti American, the same cycle made America what it is......:yes:

[Morgan's Cloud]

Wow , consider yourself very lucky that you're not trying to run a business out here .
That incident is commonplace , not showing back up after the first paycheck is another one.

Then they all b1tch when 'foreigners' have to come in and do even the most mundane of jobs that they don't want to.

But here ,they have their ace in the hole .. The inevitable cry of 'racism'.

[LadyGrizz]

Homework is usually intended to reinforce the day's lesson, and students are expected to give their best effort to do so. Struggling with homework should signal a student needs extra instruction, whereupon a good teacher does so.

Unfortunately, in raising my own child through the Atlanta Metro Public School system, I have found those "good teachers" to be few and far between. Some through incompetency and some are just beaten down by a system that cares more for test scores than allowing their students to think. I used to simply despair at the inane, stupid, and expensive "projects" required, when my son was struggling with reading and composition. But no, we were much more concerned with building the diorama for the book report than the content of what he thought about that book that I spent night after night after night getting him to read just one more page. The good news is that since my talents were in reading and composition and his were in math and science, together we got him through and he now has an electrical engineering degree (but still no job) and actually does enjoy reading for pleasure, not just because he has to.

This public almost universal campaign declaring that no one fails, everyone wins, has taught our young people (at least those whose parents expect everyone else to raise their kids) that there IS no accountability and that they ARE entitled. My own 24 year old who used to think I was such a mean old mom, is thanking me now. He gets it, he finally understands, and he's on more than one occasion commented on how disgusted he is with the attitudes of some of his peers. But still, you can't blame the teachers, the majority of them do what they can in the face of a society that expects them to raise their kids and then ties both hands behind their back. Ultimately, it is OUR fault, as parents, that we let this happen to our kids. I just pray that I did enough for mine and that there are enough other kids out there like my sons that as they come into their own, they will be able to save us all.

[Bamboo Loui]

I could be wrong- but I seem to remember that the Russions threatened us in a speech back in the 60s--perhaps the early 70s, where they said they would destroy us without firing a shot.======SCHOOLS!!!!!
Our world has changed- no doubt. I have three- 4 really- small companies. One in Indiana, two in Michigan, and 1-2--depending on your accounting methods, in Canada.
I can say this- and I feel absolutley sure about what I am writing, The Canadian and the Michigan (Detroit area) companies have a majority of people that really believe in entitlements-- both the socialists in Canada and the team work with their Unions make Canada actually a worse place to own a business than michigan-- However-- going into Indiana makes a believer out of you again- My guys -and girls in Indiana are actualy grateful to have a job and thank me on a regular basis. AND WHAT IS COOL IS-- the Indiana plant was a Union shop before I bought it- there is no way that kind of thinking is ever coming back into that place again-- I am actually moving slowly to move business from the other two places to this much better environment. The entitlement mentality is pervasive- we need to deal with it now- I have owned companies and have worked in both Europe (Germany) and Asia (China)-- we are behind the curve with the Asians, and Germany will eventually sink itself--worse place in the world to start a business. OK_ (not really- all of Europe is the same) Hell they think they are entitled to EVERYTHING-- and the government agrees.--- warning!! don't do it unless you have to. Damn could I tell you stories!!

[bertsboat]

My Wife and I had a female hire that we took from answering the phone to a great sales position in a matter of less than two years. She got tangled with the wrong guy and she had three kids all young and in school. Well one day she was a no show. No calls, nothing. Next day she wanders in and I told her she was fired and she said "I have been fired from jobs before" and I said "from a $50,000 a year job"? She had no answer. What she gave up was a career, not a job.
And we have lost several people with that attitude.
They want two breaks a day, one hour for lunch and on and on.
That's the worst part of owning your own business.

[zelatore]

I'm pretty certain exploding into a fireball of death was not one of the objectives of the Hindenburg. ;)
No, I think they were planning for a fireball of joy and frivolity:wink:

[gcarter]

Wow , consider yourself very lucky that you're not trying to run a business out here .

I know what you mean, over the decades we've had our share of losers. The worst was about 4 years when unemployment was about 2%. There were no good candidates. Anyone available was virtually unemployable.
But, right now, unemployment is over 11% locally, and this guy had been unemployed/under employed for a long time.
I'm still amazed.

I read an article about various company's hiring habits in these times. The concensus was that if the candidate had been unemployed more that 90 days, they wouldn't hire him.
I can appreciate that sentiment.

[Morgan's Cloud]

For us , unemployment is a relatively new phenomenom . For 30+ years we grew an economy that resulted in overemployment.
Regretfully , the belief of entitlement is very deeply imbedded in the minds of 70% of the population who harp on about 'historical injustices' ... the type that ended about 180 years ago .

Now we have a totally inept and openly corrupt government that draws it's support form this very same group.
No wonder we're well on our way down the tubes .

When you speak to guest workers from the US , Canada or the UK who have been here long enough to see what's going on they'll tell you that they've never seen it so bad and they can't wait to get out of here .

[bertsboat]

Where are you Mr Morgan?
Bert

[gcarter]

He's not on, but he's in Bermuda.

[Ranman]

So if I read this right, he was a no call-no-show on a Monday after 6 solid weeks and in that afternoon, as a result of being unable to contact, you chose to move on and took action to replace him that day without knowing anything about his situation or wherebouts? Seriously?

It doesn't sound to me like you were too concerned about what was happening, only that you're employee went MIA for something like 2 to 4 business hours before you gave up and moved on with replacing him?

In the end, termination is correct since he didn't have an explanation for not calling, but it appears to me from your explanation that since you took such dramatic action before knowing the facts of the situation, either you had a sense that this guy was going to be unreliable or you are not too concerned about your relationship with your employees. I seriously hope it's the former or that there's more to this story...

[gcarter]

Good point Randy, and I think you and everyone else can figure it out by the fact that our best service employees have stayed around 12-15 years.

But we didn't make the final decision until the end of the day. We started talking to others sooner than that.

[joseph m. hahnl]

NH is a employment at will state "well was". So you can't just fire somebody,but you can let them go at any time for no reason whats so ever. The difference is the ability to collect employment security.

Todays youth is the instant gratification generation. They expect that everything should be just given to them with out actually earning it.

Kind of like the older generation that got everything for next to nothing"meaning all the land that towns gave away back in the day"

I own a house in a subdivision that was won in a poker game:yes:

Imagine a hundred acres in the pot and a pair of deuces takes it:eek:

Sorry got side tracked. I find that most people are not very reliable when it comes to work ethic and general attendance. 90% of the people at my company use,abuse and milk the company for all it's worth. Then they act like they're something special and the company would fold if they were to leave. This includes management members who can't do one aspect of there job correctly, yet will dictate how others should do theirs.

There is a sales guy we have who walks around all day with his hands in his pockets asking everybody what's for lunch. I'm totally serious that is the extent of his day. "Sorry Baggage"

Anyway there are a few good people in every work place that have the company best interest at heart. Sometimes you need to go through a few to find the one:yes:

[Donzi Vol]

Well from someone who is 28, 5 years out of college, and working 50 hours per week for 40 hours pay, I'll say that there is no phenomena of entitlement among myself or the individuals that I associate with.
I quit my first job out of college after a month because I felt that the owner of the company (and my direct boss) was absolutely unreasonable and that it was a no-win situation. After that, I went back to the restaurant to earn a living while looking for a job to turn into a career. I was blessed and fortunate enough to find a good job (not great pay, but offered a solid future) in foodservice sales and worked hard to stay there for 2 1/2 years. After that I was promoted to a position that was quickly (after 2 weeks) eliminated. My superiors and many in the foodservice community helped me to get a job with a brokerage within a week, and I have now been in that position for 2 years. I don't feel entitled to a bit of it, and I feel like hard work and consistency of a job well done is what has kept me employed up until this point.
George and others, I really hate to hear that you've had to go through these difficult spots, but please don't generalize the "younger generation" as taking things for granted. I've got a lot of friends who are coming out of college with big bills to pay and cannot find jobs. Rather than jumping into that $50k+/yr job and a swanky condo that they thought they'd have, they're moving back in with their parents. Most are working at least one part-time job to keep the bills in tact. I assure you that they would not abandon a job that they earned to get.

[Donzi Vol]

Todays youth is the instant gratification generation. They expect that everything should be just given to them with out actually earning it.


Nope, nope, nope...

[Walt. H.]

Nope, nope, nope...
While you and many others including my own child in their early to mid 20's and even 30's do not apply to this profile that has come up in discussion of today's entitlement mentality that believe society owes them just because they think they're special and work rules don't apply or just know how to milk the system as a way of life instead of using assistance as a temporary helping hand.

There are way to many sub-human parasites across this country like what you will see on this video link that are hurting all of us including you because it's easier not to work and live off our Govt as a way of life, but our Govt, has finally started to run out of other peoples money that they have been giving to those that have not contributed!
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=15915

If this doesn't Pzz you Off nothing ever will..:bonk:

[Greg Guimond]

Vol makes a great point and a general statement is always risky. I had this conversation with my 78 year old father in law who insists that each generation in America will do better. I'm afraid that train left the station some time ago. When I am in Singapore for example I am astounded by the work ethic. This is the the case in more then one place. It is Darwinian, like it or not.