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biggiefl
08-10-2011, 03:21 PM
I tried a search but no luck:

What would be the pros/cons for adding a FWC system on a 22c 454? I hear they run hotter so performance is robbed slightly. They also only cool the block I believe, the PS cooler, manifolds & risers are still RWC. I might be able to get a system off a 496 which should be the same or close, etc. I am in the Gulf in FL so water is warm and salty most of the year but my house is actually brackish and more on the fresh side.

Ghost
08-10-2011, 03:38 PM
I think you will find both "half" and "whole" systems are available, that put antifreeze in the block only, or in both the block and manifolds, respectively.

I will say it is DEFINITELY better to get some form of FWC, especially in water with ANY salt. Probably better even exclusively in fresh. Easier to winterize, if you ever need to. And better for the engine to run a little warmer than pure raw-water motors often do, I am led to understand.

Only drawbacks I can think of are cost and weight, and maybe a tiny loss of power based on what you mentioned. But in all the discussions of power I have heard, FWC hasn't come up in my recollection. Do it. :)

Regards,

Mike

zelatore
08-10-2011, 03:46 PM
*&%$# database errors! I had a nice long description of things typed up but once again the registry ate it!

Basically, there's no real reason NOT to run FWC.

The only con's I can think of:

space - a Classic doesn't have the biggest engine room to start with, so it will make it a little tighter
cost - it is an extra expense if you don't already have it
complexity - more stuff to fail

The Pros:
consistant engine temp = better combustion control
No salt water in the engine = better engine life!

There's a reason every new engine sold today has FWC standard!

A 'full' system runs antifreeze through the engine and the manifolds, then dumps the raw water into the exhaust at the elbows. A half system only runs the antifreeze through the engine and dumps the raw water into the manifolds.

All of them will have raw water in some part of the exhaust; it's just the nature of the beast. The only way around that is to go to a dry exhaust.

Now let's see if this will post...

gcarter
08-10-2011, 03:50 PM
Actually, many engines run better w/a little more heat in them.
I had a San Juan "full" system an a SBC and it was very successful.
The 22C Testa Rossa I'm building now has a remote mount "Half" system.
Here's the link;
http://www.perfprotech.com/store/product/High-Performance-FWC-System-Full-Flow-700HP-Capacity-HP427RH-K1,66326.aspx

Here it is installed;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476&page=56
If you want to see more details, back up several pages.

MOP
08-10-2011, 09:37 PM
No way would I be without it, it will add years to the life and it will run better and more efficiently. Think about how your car runs when it is cold, no question it runs much better when it warms up. Anyone who thinks they will loose power is not very knowledgeable, it is not just the corrosion issue that it does away with. The engine tolerances are more consistent, it does away with the moisture build up in the engine a know cause of valve spring breakage. It also does away with the higher water pressure in raw systems that over time raises cane with gaskets. No argument that many extreme engine builders run low temp setups, this is to ward off detonation not to make power this is mainly on supercharges engines.

Walt. H.
08-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Everything Mop said and more, besides the corrosive perils of salt cold engines never make the hp a warm engine does or last as long.
Like everything else in this world moderation is the key, and throttling a cold engine is just as bad or worse as throttling a over-heated one and of course every experienced racer/engine builder knows an engine makes the most hp just before it seizes from heat. :wink:

Fishermanjm
08-11-2011, 04:29 PM
I just installed a full system in my boat, temp runs at a constant 160 degrees, it was a fairly easy install. Monitor Products Inc. raw water in the risers only,,, the guys from this site made my mind up on the freshy system, very glad i did soo

Lowflyn
08-11-2011, 04:34 PM
This is the system that I just purchased...
http://www.perfprotech.com/store/product/12-System-GM-Big-V8-74L82L-with-V-Belt-Universal-Fit-SK4008,196714.aspx

Solid, clean system and yes a 1/2 - not running injection, didn't see the need nor additional $$$.

My 454 in fresh or salt never got hotter than 125 degrees. I know the engine will perform better @140 to 160.....

When I broke down my engine - major rust throughout - may not have been from me because I flushed after every use - yet who knows what previous owners did...

Looking forward to getting boat back in the water...

silverghost
08-11-2011, 05:41 PM
I do 95% of my boating in saltwater & my boat sits in saltwater constantly for six months.
I have been using Freshwater cooling heat exchangers since the mid 70s.
I would not own an engine without one .

ANGUS
08-11-2011, 07:58 PM
FWC is a great thing if you keep the boat any length of time. BUT are you adding a system to an engine that already has a history in salt water w/o FWC? If so you may be aggravated by scale clogging the cooler, give some thought to how many hours or seasons it has clocked already if this is not a new engine. I am not a mechanic but I have seen this be a problem.:eek:

MOP
08-11-2011, 09:38 PM
FWC is a great thing if you keep the boat any length of time. BUT are you adding a system to an engine that already has a history in salt water w/o FWC? If so you may be aggravated by scale clogging the cooler, give some thought to how many hours or seasons it has clocked already if this is not a new engine. I am not a mechanic but I have seen this be a problem.:eek:

You are quite right on the age issue, I found that old engines had more issues than newer ones. Most came through Ok with back flushing a time or two, one thing about any iron subjected to salt is as long as it is kept wet it does very well. Most salt mechanics will say it will wear out before it rots out, the major things that kill fresh or salt engines is over heating and head gaskets letting go. While closed cooling will not eliminate over heat issues it sure as heck will reduce the internal water pressure within the block, that will save tons of head/intake/riser gasket leaks that is worth its weight in GOLD!

Phil S
08-11-2011, 09:55 PM
Gotta question on my new-to-me Z-25 with a full-closed system 454. From cold start it heats up to 160* and holds it. Run it up above 4000 rpm for about 10 minutes and it slowly starts climbing up to around 175...hold it there and will go to 185. Back out of it and it quickly drops to 160 again. Don't know the history on any heat exchanger maintenance, so I'm thinking it's overdue for that. Or is this just normal ?

Phil S.

gcarter
08-11-2011, 11:00 PM
I suppose you could clean it. Or at least check it.
It costs nothing,
How old is it?

MOP
08-11-2011, 11:06 PM
Gotta question on my new-to-me Z-25 with a full-closed system 454. From cold start it heats up to 160* and holds it. Run it up above 4000 rpm for about 10 minutes and it slowly starts climbing up to around 175...hold it there and will go to 185. Back out of it and it quickly drops to 160 again. Don't know the history on any heat exchanger maintenance, so I'm thinking it's overdue for that. Or is this just normal ?

Phil S.

Look at the whole! Water must be fed IE: good pump, water needs to get through the exchanger, but last and usually the cork in the system is risers they must let it out. You are describing a flow issue those are the areas that need exploring. If you are sure your pump is up to snuff next to check would be the risers, I have been at this for many years 90% of temp problems are related to pumps and risers. Heat exchangers can go many years without issues, most are simple to inspect. Pull the end caps, put a light at the other end and look through them. If they are clean they can do their job all they need is proper flow, always check the in's and out's first.

zelatore
08-12-2011, 01:04 PM
MOP's on the money.

I had exactly that problem on a customer's boat earlier this year (Volvo 454 inboards). I put an I/R temp gun on the risers and you could watch one engine getting hotter than the other. He had plenty of flow from the raw water pump, but the elbows were full of rust/scale. Put on a new set and he was good to go.

I've cleaned plenty of heat exchangers over the years and it's simple/cheap so you might as well pop the end caps and give it a go. Just run a stiff wire or thin rod (some like a .22 rifle cleaning kit) through each hole. But to be honest, I've seldom found enough crud in the exchangers to make much of a problem. Elbows on the other hand are often crappy, especially on salt water boats. I tell people to expect to replace them every 5 to 10 years depending on use.

Carl C
08-12-2011, 02:04 PM
*&%$# database errors! I had a nice long description of things typed up but once again the registry ate it!

Basically, there's no real reason NOT to run FWC.

The only con's I can think of:

space - a Classic doesn't have the biggest engine room to start with, so it will make it a little tighter
cost - it is an extra expense if you don't already have it
complexity - more stuff to fail

The Pros:
consistant engine temp = better combustion control
No salt water in the engine = better engine life!

There's a reason every new engine sold today has FWC standard!

A 'full' system runs antifreeze through the engine and the manifolds, then dumps the raw water into the exhaust at the elbows. A half system only runs the antifreeze through the engine and dumps the raw water into the manifolds.

All of them will have raw water in some part of the exhaust; it's just the nature of the beast. The only way around that is to go to a dry exhaust.

Now let's see if this will post...

Don, when that happens click the back button and try again. Usually it will go on the second try.

Ghost
08-12-2011, 02:38 PM
I HATE it when that happens. Learned the early lesson, when putting anything lengthy into a web form, always do a Ctrl-C & paste or CTRL-X and repaste (to be SURE you got it), before submitting the form. Otherwise, your work is just a roll of the dice from being gone.

gcarter
08-12-2011, 06:42 PM
Ahhhhh, cut and paste time!
Here's an article from the folks that supplied my system;http://www.perfprotech.com/store/WebResource.axd?d=TwSlTCBJphdfFFKsXlEd52kihWsBzBBv ttSMl5aNO1Bz5sZKufvJI2EuLE93GDhet7jPK1bA1Uc41yLsIk El2WXhCXc1&t=634442146401740514 (http://www.perfprotech.com/store/articles/fresh-water-cooling-benefits.aspx#ctl00_MainContent_CustomPageHandlerM odule1_ctl00_ctl00_StoreStaticSiteMap_SkipLink)

Fresh Water Cooling Benefits

PPT offers Fresh Water Cooling Benefits, Fresh Water Cooling Systems, Fresh Water Cooling Trouble Shooting, Fresh Water Cooling Tips


Fresh Water Cooling: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
http://www.perfprotech.com/store/App_Themes/PPT/images/tech-specs/heatexch-150.jpghttp://www.perfprotech.com/store/App_Themes/PPT/images/tech-specs/5320_closeup_color_250.jpghttp://www.perfprotech.com/store/App_Themes/PPT/images/tech-specs/Lowerhsg_150.jpg

Q: What is Fresh-Water Cooling?
A: It is the marine version of the cooling system in your car. Most marine engines are converted from a non-marine engine that was designed to have clean non-corrosive antifreeze coolant circulating between the engine and a "radiator". The marine version of this cooling system is called Fresh-Water Cooling, and the radiator is called a Heat Exchanger. Raw (sea) water instead of air passes through the heat exchanger and absorbs the heat from the engine.
Many marine engines use the initially less expensive, Raw-Water-cooling system rather than Fresh Water Cooling. In this case, polluted corrosive seawater is pumped directly into the engine. The Raw-Water eats at the very base of a marine engine causing irreparable damage.

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PROPER ENGINE TEMPERATURE - For best engine life and performance your car engine operates at a temperature much higher than a Raw-Water cooled marine engine. By converting to Fresh Water Cooling, you can bring the engine temperature up to its designed operating temperature. This, in turn, will give you:

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A: It is impossible to say. Water conditions and, therefore, Raw-Water corrosion rates vary from one location to the next. Since Raw-Water damage is internal and completely hidden, there is no accurate way to measure it and predict when the engine is going to fail. With an average of no more than 50 hours annually on pleasure boats, an engine that is Fresh Water Cooling and well maintained should last decades rather than years.

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A: It is a simple addition. A Fresh Water Cooling marine engine provides heat in the same way as your car engine. A full range of galley water heaters and cabin air heaters can be installed with an easy do-it-yourself plumbing job.

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A: It depends on what you mean by necessary. Fresh Water Cooling is not necessary in the short-term. Neither is changing your oil and filter and many other things that give your engine maximum life and performance. The benefits of Fresh Water Cooling are long-term. In order to keep the cost of a new boat down, some dealers hesitate to recommend options that are not immediately necessary.

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A: Fresh Water Cooling is for larger AND smaller boats. Factory Fresh Water Cooling engines are usually installed in larger, more expensive boats. The additional cost is low in proportion to the total cost of the boat.
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A: PPT/MONITOR systems COME IN TWO VARIETIES. Carefully make an overall comparison before making a decision. Select Link: 1/2 System versus Full System Comparison (http://www.perfprotech.com/store/articles/fresh-water-cooling.aspx)

FULL SYSTEMS COOL THE BLOCK AND MANIFOLD. In full systems, the engine block and the exhaust manifolds are included in the antifreeze system. The exhaust elbows, where the Raw-Water exits through the exhaust system, always remain on the Raw-Water side.
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Typically, full systems are more expensive in terms of hardware and installation.
HALF SYSTEMS COOL ONLY THE BLOCK. In half systems, the most expensive part of the engine, the block is on the antifreeze system. Exhaust manifolds remain on the Raw-Water side. When replacement manifolds are available at a reasonable cost, half systems are often the most cost effective.
Half systems are typically less expensive to buy and much easier to install.

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Walt. H.
08-12-2011, 08:23 PM
Another plus for having a closed cooling system filled with good ole antifreeze is you can buy and run a factory hi-performance automotive crate engine with tighter clearances that make more hp then it's marine counterpart and be purchased for much less money to boot, since you don't have to worry about the moving internals heating up quicker then the external engine block would running raw water thru it @ cooler temps then it's closed cooling system counter part that allows everything to heat up equally.
Where as the latter which would cause insufficient piston to cyl wall clearance and finally metal transfer known by racers and engine builders as the "black death", and that's why marine engines are built with more piston to wall clearance then a automotive engine besides not using steel sandwich head gaskets etc!

biggiefl
08-14-2011, 01:43 AM
Brought the boat home today and she is clean. Ran only 2 seasons in salt and still has original man/risers from 1994. I am going to inspect the exhaust this week and do fluid changes, etc. I will determine how clean the manifolds are. If they need to be changed next year or so I will just wait until I do it. Once they start to rust...you know. I also have a new set of SS Mercruiser risers that I will use when these go bad or manifolds need to be changed. If I buy the whole system combined with the SS risers...should last forever if the risers have the right connections, have to look. Why did Merc stop making the SS risers?

Ghost
08-14-2011, 06:51 AM
Brought the boat home today and she is clean. Ran only 2 seasons in salt and still has original man/risers from 1994. I am going to inspect the exhaust this week and do fluid changes, etc. I will determine how clean the manifolds are. If they need to be changed next year or so I will just wait until I do it. Once they start to rust...you know. I also have a new set of SS Mercruiser risers that I will use when these go bad or manifolds need to be changed. If I buy the whole system combined with the SS risers...should last forever if the risers have the right connections, have to look. Why did Merc stop making the SS risers?

Congrats, sounds like a great boat. Don't know the answer to your Merc question.

One quick thought, FWIW, I wouldn't trust any cast iron manifolds from 1994, whether they'd seen salt or not, and those have. I would replace them before I so much as turned the key.

Beyond that, I think you'll always be replacing them, even with FWC. If you're looking for longevity, the best I have heard about are the ones from Stainless Marine (http://www.stainlessmarine.com/ (http://www.stainlessmarine.com/)), especially if you use a freshwater "whole" system that only puts raw water into the risers. Among other things, there's some interesting reading on their website about how and why they used to use stainless for the manifolds but later switched to aluminum, sticking with stainless only for the risers.

More important, what seems to me like the crux of the game of manifold- longevity-chicken is this:

when they go, it can often be catastrophic for the whole motor
it's very hard to know when they are going to go
even if you can figure out when they are going to go, it's a lot of work to monitor. And odds are you probably can't get it right anyway, risking item #1.
As I understand it, what Stainless Marine has done on this front is to make a manifold that you can pretty much use until it fails, without taking things apart or otherwise trying to inspect them. Because by design, when it fails, it should fail by pi$$ing in the bilge, not into the motor. I believe their claim is that in their entire history, only one manifold is known to have let go into the motor. Further, their stuff lasts longer than almost anything else out there.

Even if all that is true, I would think you'd still need to keep your eyes on the risers after a few seasons. But at least they are on top of everything, hence relatively easy to get to, and small and light enough to pull off without too much hassle.

If I have any of this wrong, I'd ask people to please jump right in with corrections.

And I confess I have no direct experience with their stuff, but many here do. My inclination is they are the manifolds I want to have for almost any v-8 I/O I ever own.

Mike

gcarter
08-14-2011, 10:20 AM
What Mike said.
I had them on the Minx w/a full system;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34764&d=1205500979

I would say the risers COULD NOT leak into the engine as there's a gasket in the joint and the two mating surfaces are solid.
You can often find bargains on these on eBay.

Ghost
08-14-2011, 01:07 PM
Agreed with George. In fact, he only scenario I could think of in a freshwater "whole" Stainless Marine setup, where the risers were a concern, was if the inner wall of the riser eventually rusted through before the outer, such that the jacket started dumping seawater straight into the riser's exhaust chamber, and then down into the motor through the open exhaust joint between manifold and riser. But I would think this would take a good few years for that to be possible, given the materials. And they may well make the relative thicknesses in the riser the same way as the manifold, such that the outer should give before the inner, once again dumping water in the bilge, not the engine. I'm near certain they say this about the aluminum manifolds, but unsure if they say this about the risers.

It really looks like a great product to me.

Ghost
08-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Don, when that happens click the back button and try again. Usually it will go on the second try.

Don't ask me why this just struck me. I think maybe what Carl meant was "Retry." (Re-try in IE 7 is the little square gray button eith the two yen-and-yang style green arrows, next to the "Stop" button with the red "X" in it.)


I suspect the "Back" button (the backspace key, or the round blue button with the white left arrow) will, with certainty, LOSE all you tried to post, because it reloads the previous page, which was a blank form ready for you to start typing. But what you typed won't be there, because your words only existed:

In the box as you typed it.
In the submission the browser packaged up and tried to send over the net to the webserver. And that submission didn't get there.
But hitting "Retry" will re-send your submission, which will be the same as it was on the last failed transmission, and will thus include your typed post.

Put another way, "Back" says "give me another blank sheet of paper, just like the last one I grabbed." Where "Retry" says "send my letter again."

Anyway, my apologies if I have this wrong, but this is my experience, and also fits with my understanding of what the browser is doing. At least, with Internet Explorer. I don't know other browsers enough to know if they are calling these features ("Back" and "Retry") the same things.

Mike

P.S. How ironic: when I tried to post THIS, it didn't make it. I hit "Retry" and it posted, without any re-typing. :) Seriously, I am not kidding. I swear, it just happened.

Walt. H.
08-14-2011, 03:22 PM
Don't ask me why this just struck me. I think maybe what Carl meant was "Retry."
I suspect the "Back" button will, with certainty, lose all you tried to post, because it reloads the previous page, which will be a blank form to post in. What you typed won't be there, because it only existed in the box as you typed it, and then in the submission the browser tried to send to the webserver. And that submission didn't get there.
But hitting "Retry" will re-send your submission, which will be the same as before, and will thus include your data.
Anyway, my apologies if I have this wrong, but this is my experience, and also fits with my understanding of what the browser is doing. At least, with Internet Explorer. I don't know other browsers enough to know if they are calling these features ("Back" and "Retry") the same things.
Mike
What I do to keep me from punching my c-puter monitor is to just left click on the mouse on everything I wrote and click on copy before I send, this way if the submit goes blank when the site goes into error and momentarily down I can either repost everything I wrote without losing it by trying again to reply and right click and paste, or paste it to a e-mail to myself and retry to post it at a later time when the site comes back up and running.
My problem is I don't always remember to do this and I wind-up re-writing a shorter condensed version from memory when this happens or just saying f - it depending on the hour of day!

Ps;
This post took every bit of 4-minutes to go thru from the time shown above left, but at least I had it copied just in case this time.

Ghost
08-14-2011, 03:56 PM
What I do to keep me from punching my c-puter monitor is to just left click on the mouse on everything I wrote and click on copy before I send, this way if the submit goes blank when the site goes into error and momentarily down I can either repost everything I wrote without losing it by trying again to reply and right click and paste, or paste it to a e-mail to myself and retry to post it at a later time when the site comes back up and running.
My problem is I don't always remember to do this and I wind-up re-writing a shorter condensed version from memory when this happens or just saying f - it depending on the hour of day!

Ps;
This post took every bit of 4-minutes to go thru from the time shown above left, but at least I had it copied just in case this time.

LOL, I agree this sort of thing is best--I do something similar. Most of the time I highlight it all, hit Ctrl-X (to cut it) and then Ctrl-V to paste it back in the form before I post. If the browser session gets pear-shaped, I can just paste again with Ctrl-V.

Doing Ctrl-C (copy) does the same thing, EXCEPT you don't know for sure if the copy actually happened. But when you cut it, you see it disappear, so you know for sure the command actually took.

Lastly, if you do forget, frequently the post action is slow enough that while the page is still sitting there, you have time to highlight your text and hit Ctrl-X, before the browser repaints. So, you often have a second chance. But if you're too slow or forget, "Retry" is the best last chance I think.

Phil S
08-18-2011, 10:06 PM
Thanks MOP and George C and Zelatore, Walt and others....great info !!

Back-flushed it on the hose first, then pulled the end-caps on exchanger to clean it. Ran it pretty hard this weekend, and it never rose above 170* on the gauge, but plan to run it again this weekend with a temp gun pointed at the risers to be sure. George, I'm not sure how old the FWC system is, but impeller pump is new, hoses ? not sure, and do look tired, but no leaks. New hoses for the whole system are next. I guess one could be partially clogged / collapsing somewhere...454 / B1.

Thanks again,
Phil S.

Fishermanjm
08-19-2011, 11:56 AM
George,,, what is that piece with the hoses on the ft. crank area on that engine?

biggiefl
08-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Stainless marine and IMCO are identical in design I believe. My bud's failed. The aluminum has a SS sleave and as you know that is dissimilar metals. The alum. rotted around the sleave and it cost him about $1800 for new manifolds. They lasted about 6 seasons. It is cheaper to run OEM that only cost $300 or less a pair and replace them 6 times for the same money which would take about 30-35 years in salt water.

I have been looking on E-Bay for a FWC system and not even ONE is for sale.

Fishermanjm
08-19-2011, 12:23 PM
biggie,,, try monitor products, i just installed thier kit on my boat 1100.00 for the kit and about 4 hrs of my time, the kit works excellent, i did have to buy a couple of elbows and clamps at home depot to finnish the install

gcarter
08-19-2011, 05:09 PM
Stainless marine and IMCO are identical in design I believe. My bud's failed. The aluminum has a SS sleave and as you know that is dissimilar metals. The alum. rotted around the sleave and it cost him about $1800 for new manifolds. They lasted about 6 seasons. It is cheaper to run OEM that only cost $300 or less a pair and replace them 6 times for the same money which would take about 30-35 years in salt water.

I have been looking on E-Bay for a FWC system and not even ONE is for sale.

I think you'll find upon further investigation, the two brands are significantly different and that the SM products are the best on the market.
They do frequently show up on eBay and sometimes at great prices.

You'll seldom find good closed systems on eBay and absolutely no selection to speak of.
The link I posted earlier is for Monitor Products, or you can deal w/Monitor directly. There may be a difference in prices. When I bought mine, it was drop shipped to me from Brooksville although I bought it from PPT in OK.
One of the best features of many of the Monitor systems is the engine thermostat is located on the HE. There is full circulation in the engine until the engine reaches operating temp. It's a great system.
They're located in Brooksville, not far from you.

gcarter
08-19-2011, 05:41 PM
George,,, what is that piece with the hoses on the ft. crank area on that engine?

If I understand the question, it's a Meziere electric circ pump. It flows 55 GPM continuously and keeps the engine temp almost completely constant.
I've mounted one on the TR also.

biggiefl
08-21-2011, 12:23 AM
Will a FWC OEM system from a 496 work? I got a line on one for $500.

silverghost
08-21-2011, 12:59 AM
Will a FWC OEM system from a 496 work? I got a line on one for $500.

I see no reason why this 496 kit would would not work on a Merc. 502 or 454 .
You may need to buy a few new hoses & change the heat exchanger mounting bracket slightly.
It bolts-up to the thermostat water outlet.
This sounds like a great deal at $ 500.
For where you will use your new boat a FWC heat exchanger system is a must for any sort of long engine life in saltwater use.

biggiefl
08-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Many say not to put a FWC system on a used engine due to scale...what do you think? I have OEM SS risers and am buying new manifolds.