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yeller
08-02-2011, 01:57 PM
The rebuild started this weekend. Took my boat to Jeremy's Sunday morning to pull the motor. Damn, there is a lot of junk on these things. The hoses, harness, coolers, accessories filled the back of my truck when we stripped it down.

Shut it down about 3pm and spent the next 8 or so hours drinking large amounts of alcohol. :drunk: Jeremy cooked up a great dinner of fresh salmon and vegetables straight from his garden. Then in the morning, Jackie made a great breakfast of fresh farm eggs and homemade sausage. I highly recommend this bed-and-breakfast. :yes:

Monday morning we ripped apart the engine and Jeremy is going to haul it to the machine shop for me today. (Couldn't do it yesterday. Monday was a holiday here).

Here's some pics of the start.

yeller
08-02-2011, 01:59 PM
And here's what we found.

Carl C
08-02-2011, 02:22 PM
Wow. The main bearing is GONE! Good thing you didn't run it more. Go with a crank that has only been cut .010. I've seen problems with cranks that required a heavier cut due to the case hardening on the journal being gone. I'm assuming you will upgrade the pistons now. Try Summitt in Ohio for parts and good luck with the rebuild. I'd go with the cometic head gaskets. Mr. Fixxy probably has some good tips too.

PS, yes, the 496 is one fugly cluttered up package!

RickSE
08-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Good luck with the rebuild Glen. Man, your boat has certainly been through a lot.

mrfixxall
08-02-2011, 03:36 PM
And here's what we found.


from the looks of that thrust bearing the block is probably going to be junk!:blub:

yeller
08-02-2011, 03:42 PM
That's a rod bearing. The mains were good. #5 and #6 rods took the beating.

Jeremy took the motor to the machine shop today. Quality builder that has been around for a while. He will be spec'ing everything, but based on his visual, he thinks the crank will be ok and the bores will only need a hone. (Yes I am going with forged pistons and upgrading the rods).

Carl C
08-02-2011, 03:52 PM
I thought that was the thrust bearing too. It's a mushroomed rod bearing. Did you run it more until it started knocking?

hot shot
08-02-2011, 03:57 PM
I would call ray from raylar... I went with his 106 kit.. nice rods and pistons just 10 over enough to clean the bores up and he has a cam that flat ass works dyno numbers on a dts not a super flow were 582 hp 597 torque at 5300 rpm. my boat is running 80 82 with that mc leod interior that weighs at lease 400 lbs and no shortie you could expect upper 80's with your boat ps gps showed 85 one time no gas tail current and a tail wind but 80 82 all day.... think about it Mick

yeller
08-02-2011, 09:47 PM
Carl....She was knocking pretty good. :tongue:

Mick, I have Raylar on speed dial. Just waiting to see what size pistons I need.

silverghost
08-02-2011, 09:56 PM
With the increased compression & explosion pressure stress of that supercharger you should build the best bottom end rotating assembly you can afford.

Get a good forged crankshaft ,also~ to go along with the forged rods & forged pistons.

dsparis
08-02-2011, 10:26 PM
Not trying to be disrespectful but, is your builder looking at the same bearings I am?

dsparis
08-02-2011, 10:34 PM
BTW looks like a cast crank

silverghost
08-02-2011, 11:00 PM
WOW~
There's still a lot of nasty looking Milky oil there.

You replaced that leaking cooler~
But there must still be some place that that new cooling water is comming from ?

Did you find the cause of all that water in the engine's oil ?

yeller
08-02-2011, 11:42 PM
With the increased compression & explosion pressure stress of that supercharger you should build the best bottom end rotating assembly you can afford.

Get a good forged crankshaft ,also~ to go along with the forged rods & forged pistons.Nope. Going to keep the stock crank if it can be machined. I'm not running 700+ hp. I'm less than 550. Max rpm is 5100, so with that hp, the stock, cast crank is plenty strong enough.

Not trying to be disrespectful but, is your builder looking at the same bearings I am?Not sure what you're getting at? Bearings are junk. That's obvious. So you're saying.....?

WOW~
There's still a lot of nasty looking Milky oil there.

You replaced that leaking cooler~
But there must still be some place that that new cooling water is comming from ?

Did you find the cause of all that water in the engine's oil ?Milky oil is left over from when the cooler sprung a leak and I forced the ingested water past the rings. When we pulled the motor, the oil we drained (from the pan) was clean. Problem was...there wasn't enough oil pressure to push the oil to the top end, so that milky oil never got washed out.

dsparis
08-03-2011, 09:49 AM
I'm suggesting that with a bearing that burned up the crank will need attention too.

yeller
08-03-2011, 12:35 PM
Really?? Wow, never thought of that. I never even looked at the crank. I figured it would be perfect. I'll mention it to my builder. Thanks!

dsparis
08-03-2011, 01:03 PM
Jeremy took the motor to the machine shop today. Quality builder that has been around for a while. He will be spec'ing everything, but based on his visual, he thinks the crank will be ok and the bores will only need a hone. (Yes I am going with forged pistons and upgrading the rods).


I'm sorry I must be miss reading this

mrfixxall
08-03-2011, 03:50 PM
Jeremy took the motor to the machine shop today. Quality builder that has been around for a while. He will be spec'ing everything, but based on his visual, he thinks the crank will be ok and the bores will only need a hone. (Yes I am going with forged pistons and upgrading the rods).


I'm sorry I must be miss reading this


what good are forged pistons when you have a cast crank and a .020 one at that now add a procharger,,i have a feeling that the next project will be 496 ho broken crank! :garfield:

BUIZILLA
08-03-2011, 04:18 PM
why did the bearings do that?

IMO, you need to find that out FIRST...

silverghost
08-03-2011, 04:34 PM
why did the bearings do that?

IMO, you need to find that out FIRST...

I could not agree more.
Be sure to also put in a good quality NEW High volume oil pump.

With ANY supercharged engine you need the very best bottom end parts IF you want the engine to live for a long time.

The forged pistons & rods are great~
Also invest in a good quality FORGED crankshaft .
All supercharged engines are subjected to much higher compression & cylinder explosion pressures than a normally asperated stock engine.
Where do you think all that extra horsepower comes from when using a supercharger ?
A good quality forged crankshaft & high quality bearings are a must in my opinion to go along with forged rods & pistons.

Unless you want the very same failures to happen again ?

The Hedgehog
08-03-2011, 10:53 PM
I could not agree more.
Be sure to also put in a good quality NEW High volume oil pump.

With ANY supercharged engine you need the very best bottom end parts IF you want the engine to live for a long time.

The forged pistons & rods are great~
Also invest in a good quality FORGED crankshaft .
All supercharged engines are subjected to much higher compression & cylinder explosion pressures than a normally asperated stock engine.
Where do you think all that extra horsepower comes from when using a supercharger ?
A good quality forged crankshaft & high quality bearings are a must in my opinion to go along with forged rods & pistons.

Unless you want the very same failures to happen again ?

Magniflux the crank.

Heck, these days I am starting to think a billet cam is the way to go!

mrfixxall
08-03-2011, 11:35 PM
why did the bearings do that?

IMO, you need to find that out FIRST...


inner cooler ruptured and forced water through the intake,,some by passed it and i think he ran it with water in the oil. he changed the oil and put a new inner cooler on and ran the boat with low oil pressure and i believe this was the results.

yeller
08-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Jeremy took the motor to the machine shop today. Quality builder that has been around for a while. He will be spec'ing everything, but based on his visual, he thinks the crank will be ok and the bores will only need a hone. (Yes I am going with forged pistons and upgrading the rods).
I'm sorry I must be miss reading thisI guess I should have said "salvageable". The crank should be able to be ground. Despite how bad the bearings look, the builder thinks the crank can be saved. I'll should know more later today.

I debated even posting the build because the entire motor problem was caused by me and I know I look stupid because of it....but I thought some people would enjoy it and I appreciate others input.

Now I knew a lot of people would say I need a forged crank.
The cast/forged debate on a 525~550hp motor is subject to opinions. HP alone does not determine the need for forged internals. RPM is actually a greater determining factor. I personally don't feel the HP and RPM's I'm running exceed the limits of the stock crank. Cast cranks can handle more HP than most people give them credit for. There are plenty of good builders out there that would agree with me. There are also plenty of good builders out there that would disagree with me.

Generally the rods or pistons will fail before the crank. Not always...but generally this is true.

If the crank can't be saved, then I'll order a forged one. If it can be saved, I'll reuse it.

Tag your it! Blast away. :tongue:

yeller
08-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Keep in mind I'm only running 3.5lbs of boost. Not exactly a mega huffer motor.

dsparis
08-04-2011, 03:56 PM
I agree with the forged vs cast and low rpm. Was the crank 0/0 to begin with ?

mrfixxall
08-04-2011, 04:12 PM
back in the day,,90's and im talking a 454..i use to put vortec and Paxton super chargers on chevy ss 454 pick ups..they would be ok @ 4 lbs of boost for street use but i have also had many of thease 454's brake the crank's because of the excess power..same goes for the lower hp merc 330 hp engines,,if they thought the 330 hp engine could be bumped to a 365 mag engine using the cast crank instead of the forged crank they used on the 365 mag engines..as cheap as merc is they would have used a cast crank,,under all the stress under a marine engine that knew it would not have lasted so they went with the forged assembly..

now your going to have the crank machined and that may put you .010 under sized bearings plus you will loose the hardened surface of the crankshaft journal plus weakening the journal as well and you may be the same situation a year from now!!

spend the extra money and buy a virgin forged or billet crank,its worth the extra money now instead of all the wasted money spent on this rebuild..this will allow you to also run more boost which a extra 1.5 lb could be 100 extra ponies:eek:

silverghost
08-04-2011, 04:58 PM
Fixx & I are thinking exactly the same here.
I have a 91 454SS Chevy Sport truck. MK V 454
Also a MK IV 454 HO in one of my boats.
Both now have forged cranks with no issues & years of hard use.

Whatever you decide to do with the crank get the best premium bearings for mains & rods you can find and a NEW high volume/pressure Melling oil pump.

Quality Bearings & performance oil pumps are very cheap insurance.

Always remember a boat engine is always under a constant very high load as compared to an auto engine.
The supercharger no matter how low it's boost pressure puts additional load & stress on your bottom end rotating assembly.

Ask yourself~
Do I want to spend a bit more money now or BIG $$$ on a new engine in a few years.
As I see it you are very lucky to be able to actually salvage this engine block.
Why take any additional chances ?

This is just My & Fixx's opinion.
It's your engine & your money ; and in the end your decision.

Buddyc
08-04-2011, 05:55 PM
Best of luck Yeller. You seem to be in great hands. When your done im sure you will have learned something.. Be glass 1/2 full if you can:)

Buddyc
08-04-2011, 05:56 PM
Best of luck Yeller. You seem to be in great hands. When your done im sure you will have learned something.. Be glass 1/2 full if you can:)
BTW...Than Bed and Breakfast sounded great!

zelatore
08-04-2011, 08:48 PM
this will allow you to also run more boost which a extra 1.5 lb could be 100 extra ponies:eek:


And there it is.

Get a new crank. Because you know fast is never fast enough and once you get the boat sorted and put a season on it you'll hear that little voice reminding you how easy it is to make more boost...

BUIZILLA
08-04-2011, 09:09 PM
IMHO, I think your going to regret, at some point, not upgrading the crank..

mrfixxall
08-04-2011, 09:41 PM
forged diesel crank,,only 410 ftlbs and it broke as a daily driver..

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f12/Trueposition/oilholesealed.jpg

ok get to order in! http://www.winbergcrankshafts.com/

tdlong98
08-04-2011, 10:28 PM
IMHO, I think your going to regret, at some point, not upgrading the crank..


I agree! But I also love to spend other peoples money.... LOL

yeller
08-04-2011, 10:57 PM
IMHO, I think your going to regret, at some point, not upgrading the crank..
It's possible. Only time will tell.

There are a lot of procharger, whipple, and Raylar 525 kits running the stock crank. You can always find examples of broken cranks. Sometimes cranks break. Fixx just posted a pic of a broken forged crank out of a 410tq motor. So if cast breaks, and forged breaks, what do I go to now?

There are stories of people slipping in the shower and splitting their skulls open, but I doubt there is anyone here that wears a safety harness when showering.

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I don't have a problem running the stock unit.

mrfixxall
08-05-2011, 12:13 AM
It's possible. Only time will tell.

There are a lot of procharger, whipple, and Raylar 525 kits running the stock crank. You can always find examples of broken cranks. Sometimes cranks break. Fixx just posted a pic of a broken forged crank out of a 410tq motor. So if cast breaks, and forged breaks, what do I go to now?

There are stories of people slipping in the shower and splitting their skulls open, but I doubt there is anyone here that wears a safety harness when showering.

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I don't have a problem running the stock unit.


Why is faster never fast enough.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/image.php?u=3382&type=sigpic&dateline=1303703544



I rest my case!

Carl C
08-05-2011, 08:24 AM
Glenn, I worked as a heavy repair mechanic for about 20 years. If the crank needs more than a .010 cut I would replace it with a reground crank that has been turned only .010 and use yours as the core. That journal may have gotten hot enough to affect the case hardening and more than .010 starts to cut off the case hardened metal. This comes from experience. I have seen these reground crank's journals fail quickly on a heavily machined crankshaft. I'm also not a fan of just honing and re-ringing from experience. If there is any ridge at the top of the cylinder, and I'm sure there is, you should not just remove the ridge and hone but you should have the block bored oversize which isn't that expensive at a good automotive machine shop. Again that's from experience and seeing rings fail to seal in engines that were not bored. Just a couple of tips that come from first hand experience and won't cost you much. Good luck. Are you going to move quickly on this or is your boating season over?

zelatore
08-05-2011, 10:32 AM
forged diesel crank,,only 410 ftlbs and it broke as a daily driver..



Yikes! My first thought looking at that was 'I wonder what kind of sound THAT made?'


Why is faster never fast enough.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/image.php?u=3382&type=sigpic&dateline=1303703544



I rest my case!

HA! I had forgot that was actually Glen's sig line!

yeller
08-10-2011, 12:36 AM
Turns out things are worse than I thought. When I said the mains were fine, I was just blowin' smoke. I didn't actually know that they good because the only thing I didn't do was pull the main caps. I sent the motor to the builder stripped down, but never actually pulled the mains.

Soooo.......now I got caught in a lie. :frown: Turns out I spun a main also. Crank is toast as well as one main cap.

I haven't pulled the trigger on new parts yet, because I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Rebuild is looking to be about 10k. So do I dump 10k into this motor or look elsewhere?? 10k will give me a rotating assemble easily capable of handling the boost and hp I'm going to make. But.....even though the crank/rods/pistons could handle more hp, I won't be able to extract it, (if I want to later), because the stock intake and heads suck on these motors.

So the other option I'm thinking of is a 502. 10k will put me at the same spot as the 496...but....it will be able to easily handle more by just cranking up the boost (and a few other small tweaks).

Now I know most everyones answer is going to be:
496 vs 502 :bonk::bonk: 502!! :yes::yes:

Here's the thing though. I don't want to get caught in a hassle of adapting a different motor's wiring harness/computer to the existing.

The 496 rebuild is very appealing to me because it's straight plug 'n' play. Rebuild it, install it, and go. No adapting, no worries about tuning, nothing. Just put it in and go.

The other side of the coin is the $ vs future possibilities.
I don't think I want any more hp than what I had before, but.........what if?

BTW: I called Raylar to get a price on his forged crank and he actually tried to talk me out of it. Said the stock crank is less money and will easily handle 600+ hp. He actually said the stock crank is good to 800. Now that may be stretching it, but regardless, he likes the stock crank. He said the new cast cranks are not like the old ones at all and can not be compared. It made me remember reading up on the internals of the mid 90's LT1 I put in my 16C. Rods were cast, but are called "powdered metal" rods and from what I could find out were as strong or stronger than old style forged rods.

I'm not trying to change anyones opinion here. Just relaying what I was told.

yeller
08-10-2011, 12:45 AM
Oh yea...one more thing. Going with the 496 will have me up and running by the end of the month. Pretty much near the end of our season....but I will get at least a month of boating...and boating is all I look forward to. Once boating season is over, I spend the rest of the year waiting for the next season to start. With all the stress of my work.....I NEED to boat.

If I go 502, boating is definitely done till next year.

Ghost
08-10-2011, 03:11 AM
Wow, what a PITA. Sorry to hear about all the damage.

To the extent you want any advice, I would just encourage you to ignore the time to get back running this season, and make EITHER choice based on what you want for the long haul, both in terms of cost and performance. If the 496 works for that, then do it. But don't let it win based on an extra month or two of seasonal downtime.

FWIW,

Mike

Carl C
08-10-2011, 07:34 AM
You were going to have a rod journal ground on your crank so what is wrong with a reground crank kit? They don't cost much. Also you can't just put on a new main cap without line boring the crank journals on the block & caps. So if I were you and on a budget I'd go with a .010 under crank kit, bored block, forged pistons and whatever the shop has to do to fit a new main cap. If your shop has a bunch of main caps laying around maybe they can find one that fits without machining. At least your block is good.

BUIZILLA
08-10-2011, 07:53 AM
there were a couple of low hour 496 takeouts on OSO for under 10G

plug and play

glashole
08-10-2011, 08:29 AM
blue motor

talk to carl and he will tell you you will not regret it if you can find one for a deal

yeller
08-10-2011, 01:53 PM
Carl, I have factored in the cost of line honing.

Buiz, I saw the 496 takeouts and considered it. Thing is, even though my pistons looked great when I took them out, I've never been overly comfortable running boost with them. So if I buy a take out, I'll still want forged pistons/rods. Then cost wise, I'm about the same as redoing mine.

Glashole, blue motor is out of the question. Even with a good deal, I'd be running closer to $20 by time it's all wired in and running.

mrfixxall
08-10-2011, 05:52 PM
again ;)

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/boa/2424900533.html

yeller
08-10-2011, 10:50 PM
Thanks Fixx. Saw that one even before you 1st posted it.

Talked to the guy and engine is out of the boat and not set up to test run. He sold his boat minus motor. Has 230hrs on it and supposedly was built by Raylar as demo engine for HotBoat. Hours are a bit high for what I want.

Zelatore did offer to go look at it and take a compression test so thanks Don!

I'm leaning towards being Fogduckers' boat bee_atch :eek: for the rest of season and wait to see if something comes up between now and spring.

glashole
08-11-2011, 06:54 AM
keep in mind you had a used motor and are now redoing it
buying someone else's used motor you run the risk of the same deal and any time

at least redoing your own you have the peace of mind knowing exactly what you have in there

on the other hand do all the math you want on the parts etc it always comes in higher and takes longer

if you ad 50% to your estimate are you close to a blue motor price - just a thought

have fun

BUIZILLA
08-11-2011, 07:15 AM
I can't stress enough the competancy of the machine shop to swap or replace the main caps, and align bore it... do NOT align hone.... it has to be set up in a jig and bored, the upper half of the 5 saddles gets a cleanup cut of about .002-.004 as a pilot and finish bore... you can't do a cleanup of more than that, or you run the risk of a loose chain, or tight gear lash..

as for boring, your NOT going to clean up those thrust skirt scratches on the wall with a knobby hone or light stone hone... it needs to go +.020 with a torque plate, and straighten the distortion and wall bowls that can be clearly seen in the pic's.

I don't know sh1t about painting :), but I did this other gig for a living, so I am VERY familiar with the routines... :cool:

yeller
08-11-2011, 06:26 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

Glashole, yes 50% more will get me close to the purchase price, but by time it's all said and done, even with a good deal on a 525, I'll be close to $20k to be up and running. Too much for me.

Buizilla, thanks. My builder said basically the same thing.
As far as the bores; I never planned on a hone. I was going to go 10 over on the pistons. My builder said he could do it, but he'd be much more comfortable going the next size up.

If I go ahead with my motor, I feel very confident in my chosen builder. No short cuts are taken. If anything, he is overly anal about building it right.

CHACHI
08-12-2011, 07:06 AM
Glenn, I was told by I competent engine builder that you can re-harden a crank if the journal re-finishing removes the hardening. FYI

Ken

BUIZILLA
08-12-2011, 07:37 AM
Glenn, I was told by I competent engine builder that you can re-harden a crank if the journal re-finishing removes the hardening. FYI

Ken you are correct , but it's wayyyyyyyyyyy more trouble and expense for this project than it's value vs a new crank

Buddyc
08-12-2011, 02:47 PM
Just sw these on E bay... thought it might be worth a look?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCRUISER-8-2-LITER-502-FWC-GEN4-MARINE-ENGINES-420HP-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem415bd596f0QQitemZ28071 3598704QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

yeller
08-18-2011, 04:14 AM
Thanks for the link Buddy, but......

parts are being shipped. Rebuilding the HO. Hopefully I'll get the parts next Tuesday.

Following parts are on their way:
Forged crank,H-beam rods, pistons
Camshaft
HV oil pump
Valve springs
ARP head bolts
Gaskets/bearings of course.

It'll be about 3 weeks before I'm up and running. In the meantime, I have a new set of tabs to install. I wasn't looking forward to installing the pumps, but now that the engine is out, it will be a whole lot easier.

yeller
08-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Well....the rebuild is off. I decided to rebuild the 496, because it was going to be the quickest/easiest way to get back on the water. Went to pick up my parts yesterday, and Raylar sent the wrong ones. :garfield:
I ordered a forged crank and was sent a cast crank.
I ordered 0.030 pistons and was sent 0.010.
I ordered a new camshaft and wasn't sent any.

This added delay was the final nail in the coffin of the HO rebuild.

I'm sending it all back to Raylar. Ray said he'd fully refund and pay for shipping, so I hope he's a stand up guy an honors his word. :crossfing:
I'll be out $700 because I had to pay 12% tax to get the parts into Canada, plus I shipping from Washington to Canada (and back), as well as US brokerage fees.

I now have the winter to build a 454 or 502. I really don't like the thought of losing the smartcraft sensors, but it will be nice to get rid of the PCM555 and put in a programmable ECM.

silverghost
08-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Wow~
Sorry to hear about this entire nightmare.
What kind of businessman is this Raylar guy ?
How could anyone screw-up an expensive engine parts order like this ?
I would be very steamed if I just spent $700. and had nothing at all to show for it.
This Raylar guy should pay ALL your out of pocket costs because it was ALL his mistake.
My question~
Did he ever have the correct parts you actually ordered; to ship you in the first place ?
I somehow doubt it.

It's a shame you are in Canada and cannot take this guy to a US small claims court to recoupe all your costly expenses to get this wrong stuff shipped into Canada.
What a letdown !
I feel for you.
I was hoping that your Donzi 22/496 would soon be up & running.

Carl C
08-26-2011, 01:46 PM
Sorry to hear that.

gcarter
08-26-2011, 02:13 PM
Glen, you'll be happier in the long run.