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BOBMX
07-06-2011, 05:20 PM
Hey guys-been looking at 22 Classics and found a real clean 2002 / 496HO -425hp. Dropped a deposit on it yesterday and just read an old thread about stringer problems with the early 2000's today and am flipping tf out! How do you tell if the boat had the mod and would it have had it only if the owner took care of it with DONZI or what??? The boat is a gem but dont want to buy into a crapshoot when there are so many boats on the market these days in this economy. Are the early 2000's boats to steer away from to be on the safe side or a coin toss on each one? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

mrfixxall
07-06-2011, 05:26 PM
that would depend on how and where the owner drove the boat..look close under the engine and crawl under the boat,when crawling around under it look under where the engine sits and that is usually where the cracks will be..not all were bad just the ones that were rode hard..i think donzi will still honor any cracks on the hull if they were to appear,may want to call them and find out..

BOBMX
07-06-2011, 05:42 PM
so if i dont find any issues now but "I" run her hard i could potentially develope issues in the future?

gcarter
07-06-2011, 06:47 PM
A survey will tell you if there's any issues, but they're usually pretty visible.
Regardless, the fix or fixes are fairly simple and straight forward.
The engine does have to come out.

mrfixxall
07-06-2011, 07:13 PM
so if i dont find any issues now but "I" run her hard i could potentially develope issues in the future?


what george said, if your going over 4' waves at full speed then you could develop cracks but normal speed runs over average waves should not hurt anything..

roadtrip se
07-06-2011, 07:34 PM
I'll weigh in with a slightly different view. Putting aside how the boat has been run for a moment, the stringer fix was put into effect to patch boats together that had obvious manufacturing flaws. This boat is almost a decade old, so the flaws should have shown themselves by now, if they were going to appear.

And yes, get a survey, for anything you decide to buy.

BOBMX
07-06-2011, 08:35 PM
Thanks for all the input. I have a survey scheduled for tomorrow. I guess where i am still confused is here: Was the defect found only in a number of hulls or in all the hulls in all the years and the difference is they show when the boats are ran rough? Going back to the post about hitting the 4 footers, will one of these years see problems easier than pre 2000's or late 2000's because of the defect when pushed hard in the rough stuff? Also it was said that it a fairly easy fix when the engine is out. Is it a structural fix or cosmetic? Last, would you guys experienced with Donzis shy away from this boat if is surveys good "if" you planned to run it hard or go find another year? Ive owned about 14 boats, never a Donzi, mostly bigger stuff, but I am realistic, I dont plan on beating the crap out of it but I like to own quality boats that make you feel like they will take a beating and come out on top. It's the old "rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it".

gmcars10
07-06-2011, 09:34 PM
I am curious as to when Donzi made the fix in production? I have a 2006 and was not aware of this before I purchased mine. Is it considered a later model that was changed in production or one with potential defects. I did not notice any stress cracks when I bought it and I won't be running hard but sure would like to know. Thanks Ward

MOP
07-06-2011, 09:39 PM
Another approach would be to call Donzi with the serial number, if they have supplied the fix kit or authorized a fix they will have a record. The boat may well have been babied and show no signs, a phone call may help. The issue was with the inner panels under the engine, they tend to show cracking in line with the strakes. They start out as hair not easily noticed, make your surveyor aware. Question are you using a NAMS or SAMS approved surveyor?

Phil

BOBMX
07-06-2011, 10:33 PM
yeah SAMS.

mrfixxall
07-06-2011, 11:11 PM
here is a pic of one so you guys in question will know what to look for..


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24682&d=1161627188

gcarter
07-06-2011, 11:32 PM
Laying up boat hulls isn't like assembling cars. Hulls aren't often all that consistant.
In the worst of times it was possible to get a really good hull.
It seems that quality would be different on a day to day basis, and from team to team.
I'm just talking about what I've seen.

BOBMX
07-07-2011, 01:50 AM
So based on your pic, if the inside matches the outside it would be structural, not cosmetic which sounds like ripping out the deck and rebuilding stringers $$$$$$$$$$???

yeller
07-07-2011, 02:30 AM
There are a lot of boats out there that weren't launched off 4' waves that had the cracks appear. The boats don't have to be run hard to develop the cracks.

I wouldn't trust a survey to find the cracks. In my case, they were barely visible. I didn't see them the first time I checked. Don't even bother crawling in the bilge. The best way to check is to get a very bright light and check the bottom of the boat at the end of the inside strakes. The cracks will appear where shown in the pic. They may not be as noticable as in the pic and might only appear as light pencil marks on the hull. I didn't see mine until I put a bright light on the hull bottom.

I also wouldn't say that the fix is simple. Simple is a relative term. It is expensive if you don't do it yourself. The motor has to come and it the hull has to be repaired inside and out. Expect to pay about $4k (possibly more) to get it done.

....and Donzi WILL NOT repair any cracks you find on a 2002. If you are lucky, they may send you the materials....but I wouldn't count on it.

RickSE
07-07-2011, 11:10 AM
I am curious as to when Donzi made the fix in production? I have a 2006 and was not aware of this before I purchased mine. Is it considered a later model that was changed in production or one with potential defects. I did not notice any stress cracks when I bought it and I won't be running hard but sure would like to know. Thanks Ward

Ward, I don't mean to scare you but, one of the worst cases was a 2006. DudeHoss' 2006 (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062&highlight=cracks) This boat went back to the factory for repair just before mine and was so bad that it forced a revision in the repair procedure. As far as I know the construction methods did not change until the 2007 Model Year. Also, at the time Donzi was only seeing these issues on the bigger power HO boats. Just take some of the advise written here, bright light under the hull, port side inner lifting strake is usually the worst.

BOBMX
07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Surveyor is on it now and at least I had solid info to give him to look for thanks to you guys. I wonder, was this problem common in those years or isolated to just a few. We can break about anything if we try hard enough. I remember there was a guy bitchin about a swim platform breaking loose on a Fountain but what he forgot to mention is he got a bad launch off a big wave and transom landed the boat.

roadtrip se
07-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Surveyor is on it now and at least I had solid info to give him to look for thanks to you guys. I wonder, was this problem common in those years or isolated to just a few. We can break about anything if we try hard enough. I remember there was a guy bitchin about a swim platform breaking loose on a Fountain but what he forgot to mention is he got a bad launch off a big wave and transom landed the boat.

It was not every boat. I have seen really nice 496HO boats with no indication of cracking anywhere, and a lot of these boats had been run in big conditions. I am not sure where the rode hard and put up wet cracking theory started, but the ones I have seen that cracked were fairly new and fresh boats. If it is there, your surveyor will certainly pick up on it, as it is pretty easy to spot on the bottom side. The Donzi official repair for it is fairly easy to spot, too, as the stringers will have build up around them, and a shelf lower in the bilge.

As for going forward with a cracked boat, I just upgraded my power and decided to upgrade the bilge pan at the same time. It was a fairly simple glass job, inside and out, to execute.

BOBMX
07-07-2011, 02:28 PM
Survey is done, no sign of cracks anywhere inside or out. Surveyor said the boat was a 10. Has about 150 hrs on it and is a lake boat (small one at that) and doesn't appear to have ever seen rough water so who knows, I guess it's tough to tell if it has been babied but sounds like it's good as it sits.

yeller
07-07-2011, 02:52 PM
That's good news! Even if the boat had been babied, I'm sure if it was going to crack, it would have already. Sounds like you are safe.

Enjoy!

Here's a pic of the mod in post #5 (first pic). http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62105 You can see the added 'step' beside the bilge pump. A fillet was also added at the bottom of the stringers to 'round off' the transition from stringer to hull.

The mod changed later because some boats recracked even with this mod. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the updated mod did not include the 'step', but added coring between the stringers to strengthen the bottom.

gmcars10
07-07-2011, 02:56 PM
Hey Rick,
You didn't scare me and I really appreciate the information. I don't have the boat in town right now but will be taking a very close look.
Thanks Ward

BOBMX
07-07-2011, 07:19 PM
Deal is done! Thanks to everybody that helped me along the way! FYI, I talked to the warranty guy at Donzi today and he said they made changes to the stringers that affected "some" boats from around 2000 to 2006. 2007 is supposed to be the change year but the bulk of the issues he remembered were mostly '03 and '04. According to him, as was previously stated, if there are no cracks by now, there probably wont be an issue.

RickSE
07-08-2011, 10:19 AM
Good deal and it's nice to hear that Donzi was up front with you about the issues and years effected.

BOBMX
07-08-2011, 04:38 PM
I honestly wasn't expecting that after all I've heard about their customer service. He was as helpful as he could be.

gmcars10
07-10-2011, 06:05 PM
I sure hope my hull is one of the 'never going to have a problem' ones. I was under the boat for quite a while and there are no traces of hairline cracks at all anywhere. It has had no previous repairs. There are about 160 hours on it now and I would think something would show up by now.

BOBMX
07-10-2011, 09:49 PM
He was pretty emphatic that the problems would start early on a bad hull. I specifically asked him the following question in an effort to convince myself to buy this boat and not worry forever about it. I asked him if you had a mid '90's, a 2007 and a 2000-2006 (problem era) hull and you beat the hell out of them all would the '00-'06 break any easier than the others. He said that abuse would break them all the same, didn't matter if it had 10 or 510 hours on it. Now with that said, if I pulled the motor for any reason I would probably do the mod just for the hell of it.

gcarter
07-11-2011, 06:46 AM
He was pretty emphatic that the problems would start early on a bad hull. I specifically asked him the following question in an effort to convince myself to buy this boat and not worry forever about it. I asked him if you had a mid '90's, a 2007 and a 2000-2006 (problem era) hull and you beat the hell out of them all would the '00-'06 break any easier than the others. He said that abuse would break them all the same, didn't matter if it had 10 or 510 hours on it. Now with that said, if I pulled the motor for any reason I would probably do the mod just for the hell of it.

This is sound reasoning.
The mods are straight forward and fairly easy.

roadtrip se
07-11-2011, 09:07 AM
He was pretty emphatic that the problems would start early on a bad hull. I specifically asked him the following question in an effort to convince myself to buy this boat and not worry forever about it. I asked him if you had a mid '90's, a 2007 and a 2000-2006 (problem era) hull and you beat the hell out of them all would the '00-'06 break any easier than the others. He said that abuse would break them all the same, didn't matter if it had 10 or 510 hours on it. Now with that said, if I pulled the motor for any reason I would probably do the mod just for the hell of it.

If you get to the point where you do pull the motor and start strengthening the hull, there are better approaches than the modification recommended by Donzi for the stringer fix. Much better.

tmh
07-11-2011, 10:27 AM
If I were to some day repower my 2003 18C with a 400 hp 383 what should I consider doing to strengthen the bilge/stringers/boat? When I bought the boat the survey pointed out a repaired spot (1.5inchx3inches) near an engine mount in the bilge. The previous owner had ground the crack down a half inch or so and did a rough patch and insisted it was not an uncommon issue and didn't pose a structural problem. The surveyor and a fiberglass guy that I had look at it concurred that with the engine out it could be fixed like new for at most a couple hundred dollars. Nothing shows on the outside of the hull.

I'd appreciate understanding what could be done to insure the integrity of the hull with more power and greater stress. Are there good/better/best mods for cost/benefits? Is there a difference on what would be done to an 18 vs a 22? I'm not trying to go 90 mph but low 70's would be nice and I'd like to know the hull can take the additional stress.
T.M. Hayes

roadtrip se
07-11-2011, 01:50 PM
If I were to some day repower my 2003 18C with a 400 hp 383 what should I consider doing to strengthen the bilge/stringers/boat? When I bought the boat the survey pointed out a repaired spot (1.5inchx3inches) near an engine mount in the bilge. The previous owner had ground the crack down a half inch or so and did a rough patch and insisted it was not an uncommon issue and didn't pose a structural problem. The surveyor and a fiberglass guy that I had look at it concurred that with the engine out it could be fixed like new for at most a couple hundred dollars. Nothing shows on the outside of the hull.

I'd appreciate understanding what could be done to insure the integrity of the hull with more power and greater stress. Are there good/better/best mods for cost/benefits? Is there a difference on what would be done to an 18 vs a 22? I'm not trying to go 90 mph but low 70's would be nice and I'd like to know the hull can take the additional stress.
T.M. Hayes

I had some cosmetic cracking in the bilge that sounds a lot like what you are describing. We ground it out, re-gelled, primed, and painted in bilgecoat. Good as new. Unless the work is just down-right sloppy and it is cracking again, I would leave it alone. Or sand it, gel, and repaint for a fresh finish.

At 400 HP, I would say you are borderline on the 18. Jill's Scorpion was the most powerful factory 18 ever built and it had no significant upgrades in the bilge. it also had no inherent signs of flexing on the pan, when driving. it could have used full hydraulic steering for sure, at 70+.