Looks like Donzi might be done making Classics [Archive]

VetteLT193

06-23-2011, 09:16 AM

RockyS18

06-23-2011, 10:58 AM

I hope Donzi keeps making the Classics. And what was the Custom Classic Studio? Was it like a "build your own" Classic type thing?

VetteLT193

06-23-2011, 12:24 PM

I hope Donzi keeps making the Classics. And what was the Custom Classic Studio? Was it like a "build your own" Classic type thing?

That is what it was supposed to be... there was a dead link up on Donzi's web site and I think Josh from Donzi mentioned it a few times as a 'coming soon' type of a deal, but it is gone now.

Tidbart

06-23-2011, 12:40 PM

The writing was on the wall when, I believe it was Roadtripse, who asked the new Donzi VP at the Miami Boat show what it would cost for a new 16 and the reply he got was $80,000.

B

VetteLT193

06-23-2011, 01:07 PM

The writing was on the wall when, I believe it was Roadtripse, who asked the new Donzi VP at the Miami Boat show what it would cost for a new 16 and the reply he got was $80,000.

B

When you think about this it really makes no sense considering they are now merged with Baja, Fountain, and Pro Line... and you can get a brand new 2012 23' outlaw for 60k with a 6.2 MPI.:bonk:

CHACHI

06-23-2011, 01:14 PM

RockyS18

06-23-2011, 03:46 PM

Just spoke to Craig Barrie on his cell no less and he said they are available, custom order only and he has an order for one in house heading to the EU.
Why they don't have them on the site is beyond me.

Ken

Someone mentioned it is a new site, could it be that they were fixing some "bugs" and took it out by accident? Maybe if we find the old URL of the webpage it will still be there but was accidentally taken off the list...

edit: scratch that old URL, I just remembered that since the website is run by Flash there are no URLs besides the homepage.

BUIZILLA

06-23-2011, 03:59 PM

this is what *I* was told...

if you want a 16, it's 80k

if you want an 18, it's 80k

if you want a 22, it's 80k

jl1962

06-23-2011, 04:08 PM

This is what "I" would say to Donzi:

"Thank you. Have a nice day."

tomkat732

06-23-2011, 06:54 PM

Only makes our boats more valuable ..

Donziweasel

06-23-2011, 07:46 PM

This is what "I" would say to Donzi:

"Thank you. Have a nice day."

Jay, I think my reply would not have been quite a politically correct.... :)

lmsac00

06-23-2011, 08:49 PM

sure glad i bought back my baby blue 04 anni. 18

VetteLT193

06-23-2011, 08:57 PM

sure glad i bought back my baby blue 04 anni. 18

love that boat. sooooo much

jl1962

06-23-2011, 09:50 PM

Jay, I think my reply would not have been quite a politically correct.... :)

Oh it's all in HOW you say it!
:wink:

Len- Good luck w/ that 18!

Jraysray

06-24-2011, 10:08 AM

this is what *I* was told...

if you want a 16, it's 80k

if you want an 18, it's 80k

if you want a 22, it's 80k

This blows my mind, its like there are two types of dollars. Grocery dollars / boat dollars.

Maybe its like calendar years / dog years. I get the dog year scenario but for the life of me my mind will not accept the boat dollar scenario.

I know its the sandbox in which we all play in but DAMN..... Why im in my little 18c for so long I guess. :nilly::nilly:

Greg Guimond

06-24-2011, 10:33 AM

I'm with you on that. It would be very interesting to see if there entire fixed cost structure is fully utilized. If it is not, then it would be logical to "plug in" the smaller Classics into the line at more reasonable prices. Now what is reasonable is another topic entirely, but if they could use excess capacity to build the Classics at minor margins, I can't see the downside given the brand equity involved.

John C in PA

06-24-2011, 12:37 PM

deleted

zzzzzz

06-24-2011, 01:25 PM

Does this mean that my 2005 22 just GAINED value??? oh about 25K or so

DonziJosh

06-24-2011, 01:34 PM

I wonder what happened to the custom classic studio?

regardless, Donzi is going to make boats that make a profit and obviously the classic line hasn't been doing well lately. I can't think of anyone that has bought a new one after the Shelby was made. The few 009's the made were sitting at dealers forever. There is still a leftover 2009 18 for sale in the traditional red/white combo.

The market has shifted and it kind of is what it is. The 'gentleman's powerboat' just isn't selling anymore. The ZX line fit this type... gone. Formula's FasTech line fits it too and you'll be hard pressed to find a FasTech model year 2010 and newer... although you'll find a TON of SS, Bowrider, and Cruiser Formulas.

It seems Donzi is going the fishing / super high performance route (you'll find that the majority of Donzi's newer than 2009 are big ZR's and fishing boats). They seem to have stuck their toe in the water with the 35 ZR Open... but the first boat is still for sale so I have a feeling it is going to be short lived.

All very perceptive. When I first joined Donzi in 1997, the average unit sold was 27'. By 2005, it was 35'. Today, it is 38'. Increases in materials costs have continued to impact pricing (and smaller boats are always hit harder by price increases), and, by virtue of being "Classics," the boats haven't received visually discernible upgrades that might otherwise compensate for higher pricing. Add the fact that there are decades' worth of nearly exact models available in the used market, and the resulting impact on demand is pretty easy to guess.

That said; historically we were always able trigger a surge in Classic sales with a special edition, the most notable examples being the 2004 40th Anniversary Editions, and also the Shelby 22 GT. This proves that customers would still find a Classic desirable, even at a premium, if it was new and different.

My thinking with the Custom Classic Studio was an extension of that idea: that buyers, in limited numbers, would be willing to pay a premium price to be able to order a fully custom Classic - something substantially different from that which they could find in the field. However, it would be a decidedly small market.

While I was developing DonziDirect.Com and working on the Custom Classic Studio, Donzi made the move to NC. Consumer demand for parts and accessories was substantial, and we weren't going to get boats built quickly anyway, so it only made sense to back-burner the Custom Classic Studio in favor of focusing on the DonziDirect parts business.

With the move to the new facility comes an opportunity to reassess the entire lineup. I wouldn't be so quick to say Donzi is "done" making Classics, but at the moment they're not the company's focus. Interesting question though: at what price would you be in the market for a Donzi 16, 18, or 22 Classic?

Donziweasel

06-24-2011, 02:00 PM

at what price would you be in the market for a Donzi 16, 18, or 22 Classic?

Whatever it would be, it would not be 79,000.00. Well, maybe with an Ilmore and #6 drive..... :)

Josh, as you stated, the classic lineup has not changed, well, since the dawn of time. The hull is time proven and damn near perfect. As much as I dislike Hornet Marine, I have to give them Kudos for some of the upgrades on the deck and interior even if they stole everything else. In a recession, SE's might get some interest (the 009 was controversial at best but the Shelby was a definet hit).

Maybe, just maybe, it is time for Donzi to do the same. Keep the lines, so when someone looks at it they immediatly know it is a Donzi, but go for a more contemporary look above the water line. Go for the younger market Hornet is going after.

It is sad for me to even see them on the backburner, even if the nail is not in the coffin yet. My first boar ride ever when I was 2 was in a Donzi. My kids first ride was in a Donzi (and second and third). I will always love them.

Anywho, good luck with the bigger products. A Donzi, whether 16 ft or 38 ft is still a Donzi. I really hope Donzi looks at the Classic lineup again before driving the final nail in the coffin.

roadtrip se

06-24-2011, 02:10 PM

I brokered performance boats on the side from about 2003-2006. A lot of them were Donzi Classics. I got out of it, because I just didn't have the time for it any more.

I always found it interesting how a boat could be three to five years old, and the offers it would get were always less than half of what the boat would have sold for new. We are talking about a boat that might have sold for close to $50K at that time on a trailer, would get offers of $20-22K. Very few of the SE and limited editions went to the active community on the boards, if any at all.

So I can't blame Donzi for making a Classic a super, low volume, custom boat. The one boat that I did see built last year looked pretty cool and was loaded with features. I think it was re-sold somewhere in the $70's. Even the nicer examples of the Shelby are going for more than $50K, and note I said, the nicer ones.

So Donzi is going to focus on making a profit. Sounds good to me. And I can't blame them for wanting to make money on everything they sell, not just the big stuff.

gcarter

06-24-2011, 02:29 PM

this is what *I* was told...

if you want a 16, it's 80k

if you want an 18, it's 80k

if you want a 22, it's 80k

While, the exact numbers that were quoted to Jim might or might not be just that after all the planning is done, the truth is that aside from glass, chemicals, interior, and drive train, the other biggest expense is labor.
Many of you just don't know how labor intensive it is to build a boat. There probably isn't 20% difference in labor between a 16 and a 22.
Drive train prices aren't that much different either now that SBC's will probably be the mainstay.
So, it's obvious there couldn't there be much difference between them :boggled:

Marlin275

06-24-2011, 02:42 PM

What about bringing back the
Shelby 22 GT
and now a
Shelby 18 GT
Shelby 16 GT

Works for the Mustang . . .

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65188&stc=1&d=1308948030

The only boat in history to bear the name of legendary auto racer and performance kingpin Carroll Shelby . . .

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65185&stc=1&d=1308947361

gcarter

06-24-2011, 03:47 PM

And you can buy your own personal, private Shelby hatch for about $700.00 too.
You too could have your own Shelby!

Carl C

06-24-2011, 03:52 PM

Marlin275

06-24-2011, 05:07 PM

And you can buy your own personal, private Shelby hatch for about $700.00 too.
You too could have your own Shelby!

It was much more than just a hatch
and it would help Donzi
sell Classic new boats . . .

Greg Guimond

06-24-2011, 05:10 PM

General rule of thumb is that the minute the go fast boat leaves the lot take 25% right off the top. Couple years in and it's 50%. There are very few builders that can show better numbers then that, mostly West Coast guys.

Walt. H.

06-24-2011, 07:19 PM

Well this is kind of ironic. Today I got the new issue of Boating magazine and what do we have inside? An article called "Past Forward" about "timeless designs still built right today" featuring a Donzi Sweet 16........It says it costs $79,000.

WoW! I guess Donzi is trying to say it's not forsale anymore unless you're a crazy enough idiot to blow that kind of money, and i'm sure it's before tax prep and destination charges to say the least? :bonk:

Carl C

06-24-2011, 08:57 PM

WoW! I guess Donzi is trying to say it's not forsale anymore unless you're a crazy enough idiot to blow that kind of money, and i'm sure it's before tax prep and destination charges to say the least? :bonk:

I don't know, Walt. You used to be able to bargain with the dealers so maybe Donzi will bargain too. :)

silverghost

06-24-2011, 10:38 PM

I hope Donzi continues to build the 16,18, & 22 "Classic Series"
For their current custom design studio order only selling price of $80 K one would think that you should have a better engine choice than just the 260 HP 5.0 liter in the 16 & 18 ?

Buddyc

06-24-2011, 10:42 PM

Im sorry but for 80k you can have a 16, 18 and 22 all done the way you want... Now that is what I call options!

silverghost

06-24-2011, 10:47 PM

Buddy~
I don't know what their engine power offerings might be~
But in the published Boating magazine article that Carl just posted it only mentions the 5.0 MPI 260 HP for the 16.
I would think, & hope, that you might be able to at least get a 350 or 383 SBC.

Buddyc

06-24-2011, 11:55 PM

I'm just sayin , for 80 k you can have 3 boats

Walt. H.

06-25-2011, 01:02 AM

Yeah! I can think of a whole list of things i'd spend 75 to 80-K on not counting added finance interest before spending it on a cute little 50mph 16 footer, but then I still wouldn't buy any boat today brand new when you can pick one five yr's old that cured well and get one twice the value and size for the same $$.
The last boat I ever bought new was in 1968 and it was @ dealer cost deducted from my salary.:biggrin.:

Carl C

06-25-2011, 07:39 AM

I never planned to buy new but when I spotted my 22 on Pier 57's web site I really liked it and made a phone call. They knocked quite a bit off the list price (of course), included delivery from Tennessee to Michigan, Gave me $5,000 trade in credit for my worn out '85 Hydrostream and picked it up. They use the same bank I do so I let them arrange the financing. Everything just fell into place and I had a brand new 2005 22 Classic delivered to my door for $52,500 with 496 HO and lots of options, on a trailer of course. Everything on my end was handled from my home office with the computer, fax and phone. That price is before trade in credit. My net cost was $47,000. Now, will buying direct from the factory be as pleasant an experience? Who knows. I'm sure Donzi is not interested in trade ins, boat loans are harder to get and interest rates have gone up and if they won't deal or consider extras like delivery then kiss the Classics good-bye and buy a new Hornet splash or Sutphen.

Walt. H.

06-25-2011, 09:34 AM

I don't know anything about this boat or it's condition or real value, i'm just using it as an example to show that there are many pre-owned boats that are currently out there that have a whole lot more to offer for a whole lot less money at any giving time that can also take you further where you want to go and still have plenty of money left over to run it before considering a 16 footer for 80K even if it has a Donzi logo on it's side.
http://albany.craigslist.org/boa/2461414435.html

LuauLounge

06-25-2011, 05:36 PM

Go look at any new boat and the price will scare you.
Saw a toon for $112K with a 350 OB.
Look at top of the line Mastercraft roll bar boat, over a $100K.
Look at Cobalt or CC.

Donzi's in the 70's cost more than a new
Buick Riviera. They have never been a cheap boat.

I haven't seen many 70's boats today that sell for what a Donzi sells for.

silverghost

06-25-2011, 06:50 PM

In 1972 my uncle bought a new grumble green Donzi X-18 with the Olds 455/Berkeley jet drive package & two gas tanks off the old Philly boat show floor.
Longport Marine & Stone Harbor Marine were the New Jersey Donzi dealers in this era.
The price in 1972 money was just under $9. Thousand. before 6% PA sales taxes.

That was BIG money for a small boat in 1972 .

Donzi boats were never very cheap.

How would this factor into today's money with 40 years of inflation & the devaluation of the US dollar etc ?

gcarter

06-25-2011, 06:57 PM

How would this factor into today's money with 40 years of inflation & the devaluation of the US dollar etc ?

$46,371.00 before taxes.

BUIZILLA

06-25-2011, 07:13 PM

if you don't want to build or sell something you price it out of reach or in the stratosphere, then hope nobody steps up to call your bluff..

happens in a lot of commodity's

Greg Guimond

06-25-2011, 07:46 PM

$9,000 in 1972 is only $46,000 in today's dollars?

Ghost

06-25-2011, 08:01 PM

$9,000 in 1972 is only $46,000 in today's dollars?

There's no exact measure since everything always floats in value against everything else. So, it depends what benchmark you are using. That said, it sounds reasonable to me.

gcarter

06-25-2011, 08:15 PM

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

This is a handy tool.

Greg Guimond

06-25-2011, 08:39 PM

Well then that is really interesting. Donzi was a premium brand in 1972 and commanded a premium at $9,000. Are the Classics considered a premium brand today? If they are then your base rate is $46,000 for an 18 Classic today with low end power and options. Then you would get out the options menu and upgrade price accordingly. Hmmmm :lookaroun:

Carl C

06-25-2011, 10:05 PM

$46,000 sounds about right for a sbc, custom, premium built 16C. I was thinking too that I read that the new staff is almost all Fountain guys and they would have to be trained to build a Classic. At least they won't be built by a bunch of Peurto Ricans.......:popcorn:

gcarter

06-26-2011, 06:29 AM

My TR had a pretty hefty price of $44,000 ( I think, I posted the envoice somewhere on the site) in 1987, and that translates to about $83K.
I don't think for an instant that's what the buyer in PA paid for it.
After all, Brian Guggenmoss bought one of the last two or three built (his was OMC KC, and 460 Ford powered) and he only paid $20+ k for it new.

So, I think there tends to be a, sometimes, wide gap in asking and selling price for new Donzis.
The question is, what about right now?

silverghost

06-26-2011, 07:06 AM

Guys ~
I believe that our old X-18 Berkeley/Olds 455 jet drive package was the most expensive drive package offered by Donzi in the X-18 during this time period.
It was top of the heap price wise.
We now know today that these are very rare boats today as few jet Donzi boats were ever built in the first place.

Donzi's were also very hot sellers in these days, there were waiting lists to get delivery of any boat you ordered. and the dealers would not discount much, if at all from suggested factory pricing.
At least in the New Jersey /Penna market area.

We really did not want the grumble green color~
We wanted a blue Donzi .
But it was sitting right there on the Philly boat show floor ready to go~
So my uncle snapped it up.
When he later sold it after only our fifth season of summer use he got a bit more than he paid for the boat when NEW five years before.
He maintains that this is actually why he sold the boat.
He got an offer he could not refuse.
It was a seller's market in those days.
Especialy for the very rare jet drives & higher horsepower optioned boats .

Donzi's were in very short supply NEW in those days.
Every young guy wanted one~
Much like the Corvette you always wanted while in High School.

The very soft boat market is very different today.
I's now a boat BUYER"S market.

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 09:15 AM

That creates a slightly different scenario then. If the X18 with jet was considered a "top of the heap" model in terms of options and cost back in 1972, then that means that a 2011 18 Classic would need to have the better engine and options available to compare to the 72. Brad, do you happen to remember what the list price was for the squirt? I'm assuming that your Uncle bargained a bit off then asking list price for the boat. I can't imagine that list price was more then $11,000 back in 1972. I'm not sure if there is anything in the archives that would show X18 jet list price.

silverghost

06-26-2011, 09:52 AM

Greg~
As I remember the dealer would not budge much off of the factory suggested list price.
I think he threw-in the trailer to make the deal .
My uncle bought this boat on the very first day of the then week-long Philly boat show.
My aunt had a hissey-fit when she found out really how much the boat cost.

The boat also had the following options~

1) Two-tone Grumble Green/white gell bottom.
2) Dual fuel tank option.
3) Trailer
4) Carpet
5) Speedometer

This boat sold later by my uncle to a guy
from New York~

We heard that it still existed about ten years back.
It later went west from New York.
We have now totally lost track of it.
I hope to someday see it pop-up on this wesite.

I would buy it back today in a heartbeat. !

DonziJon

06-26-2011, 10:39 AM

Fall 1973: I was looking at a NEW Tartan 30. (Sail) The "base price"..without sails or options was $19,995. It had teak exterior trim and all teak interior. Bunks for 6. Stove..etc. and inboard Atomic 4. I was ready to buy but wanted to see the new dinette option that was coming out. I'm a little foggy here but I think the added cost for the dinette was $600. That put the boat out of my budjet.... I was going to pay cash.

I bought a NEW C&C 27 instead. (Sail). All the same basic features including including a dinette (Std) and the same inboard Atomic 4. MSRP $14,995.

Note: Sailmakers for a sailboat are NOT all created equal, so sails were always an option on boats larger than daysailers. The sailmaker was important.

So it looks like the X-18 Donzi was pretty expensive comparatively. DJ

Donzi Vol

06-26-2011, 11:19 AM

All very perceptive. When I first joined Donzi in 1997, the average unit sold was 27'. By 2005, it was 35'. Today, it is 38'. Increases in materials costs have continued to impact pricing (and smaller boats are always hit harder by price increases), and, by virtue of being "Classics," the boats haven't received visually discernible upgrades that might otherwise compensate for higher pricing. Add the fact that there are decades' worth of nearly exact models available in the used market, and the resulting impact on demand is pretty easy to guess.

That said; historically we were always able trigger a surge in Classic sales with a special edition, the most notable examples being the 2004 40th Anniversary Editions, and also the Shelby 22 GT. This proves that customers would still find a Classic desirable, even at a premium, if it was new and different.

My thinking with the Custom Classic Studio was an extension of that idea: that buyers, in limited numbers, would be willing to pay a premium price to be able to order a fully custom Classic - something substantially different from that which they could find in the field. However, it would be a decidedly small market.

While I was developing DonziDirect.Com and working on the Custom Classic Studio, Donzi made the move to NC. Consumer demand for parts and accessories was substantial, and we weren't going to get boats built quickly anyway, so it only made sense to back-burner the Custom Classic Studio in favor of focusing on the DonziDirect parts business.

With the move to the new facility comes an opportunity to reassess the entire lineup. I wouldn't be so quick to say Donzi is "done" making Classics, but at the moment they're not the company's focus. Interesting question though: at what price would you be in the market for a Donzi 16, 18, or 22 Classic?

Josh,

Thanks for the info. I'm glad that we have a resource straight from the top to let us in on answers to these questions that arise.

As for a price, I think that a person would pay around 60-70k for a brand new Donzi Classic. It's a lot of money for a 22' or under boat, but I look at it relative to the kind of money which is in the boats that are on this website. We have plenty of guys on here who have purchased older boats and rebuilt and/or restored them to their specs. This doesn't come cheap, as we all know. So, the question to the consumer is: Do you want to spend big money on the front end on a brand new boat, or on the back end by rebuilding an older one?

In considering this question, I look also to the successful and not so successful campaigns in the past (i.e. SE's, Shelby's, etc). Not that my thoughts really carry a ton of weight, but why not look at what's going on with current Donzi owners in order to build new boats with new concepts. For instance, yesterday I was on the water, and a guy asked me if my original 1970 18' was original or a new one made to look original. I explained that it is indeed super old, but I love the look and thus that's the way that I've kept it. On the other hand, you have some guys around here who have put a TON of power and handling upgrades in their boats. We have some really nice hot rods in this community. Some of us saw this beautiful madness at AOTH this year.

So here's my thought on a new concept for selling Classics. Create a couple different options that meet the needs that are reflected on here and other communities. Offer me a 2012 Donzi 18' that is brand new but looks like a 1970 18' in regards to interior styling, etc. That way I won't have to worry about breaking out some big cash far more often that I would prefer. Offer other guys a hot rod boat that they don't have to put any additional effort and money into to gain top speed and performance. This is exactly what's been going on with Cameros, Mustangs, and Challengers in the last few years, and we see quite a few of those on the roads these days.

I really hope that Donzi puts the effort into saving these wonderful classic Donzi's. Even the guys who run the big 38's know the heritage, glammour, prestige, and quality that these boats have brought to the brand and powerboating for 40 years. I even bet they could and would afford to put a new 16' in their garage if the campaign was strong enough.

Good luck with the future of Donzi Marine, and thanks again for keeping us in the loop.

-David

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 11:29 AM

Donzi Vol,
Nice note and well thought out. One thing I might add is that there has to be clear price difference for a 16, 18, and 22 Classics. For example, the 22 Classic will pass the "wife test" and is really a much different hull in terms of overall usage then the other two.

I would say sell a brand new "retro" package as you point out. That is the market niche for sure, there is just too much out there in terms of other vendors. The "retro" or resto rod approach is a great one.

16 Classic - $45k
18 Classic - $55k
22 Classic - $65K

Maintaining history and brand equity in a highly crowded market --- Priceless :cool!:

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 12:38 PM

Here is a very interesting piece of pricing data............

Conquistador_del_mar

06-26-2011, 12:38 PM

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

This is a handy tool.

Using George's inflation calculator, my 1971 18' 2+3 with the 350HP LT1 engine package and Volvo drive and sitting on a Rocket trailer would cost $58,500 in today's money - :nilly: Bill

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 01:08 PM

So I am right on target with my $55,000 target price for a 2012 18 Classic "Retro".

Marlin275

06-26-2011, 04:25 PM

The X-18 was the high end model that cost more than the flat deck 18.

The average annual wage in 1972 was $ 7133. and that was with one person working.
The X-18 cost $ 7670. - $ 8950. depending on engine.

So you had to be rich to own one.

http://www.donzi.net/cat/cat72/pix/prices72.gif

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 04:46 PM

Interesting. $8,950 for the X-18 with big motor and Jet in 1972. Marlin, when the heck are we going to get some good weather in our neck of the waters? I've only been out twice all year :mad:

Marlin275

06-26-2011, 04:49 PM

Marlin, when the heck are we going to get some good weather in our neck of the waters? I've only been out twice all year :mad:

rain and clouds every weekend . . .

can't last . . .

RockyS18

06-26-2011, 05:22 PM

Josh, as you stated, the classic lineup has not changed, well, since the dawn of time. The hull is time proven and damn near perfect. As much as I dislike Hornet Marine, I have to give them Kudos for some of the upgrades on the deck and interior even if they stole everything else. In a recession, SE's might get some interest (the 009 was controversial at best but the Shelby was a definet hit).

Just out of curiosity, how were the 009s controversial?

Dakari

06-26-2011, 06:12 PM

I'm with Rocky. I really like the looks of the 009's...Someday I'd really like to pick up a 22 Classic 009, if there's one for sale.

Marlin275

06-26-2011, 06:26 PM

Just out of curiosity, how were the 009s controversial?

Large American flag on side
not as popular in Molson areas . . .

Off center stripe put some off . . .

RockyS18

06-26-2011, 06:33 PM

I'm with Rocky. I really like the looks of the 009's...Someday I'd really like to pick up a 22 Classic 009, if there's one for sale.

I snatched up the last brand new 009, however I believe there is a used yellow one for sale. I will try to find the link and if I do I will edit this post.

edit: I couldn't find the yellow one, however I found this one here: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?p=594519#post594519. I am not sure if it has sold yet.

Large American flag on side
not as popular in Molson areas . . .

Off center stripe put some off . . .

Actually, the American flag was removed from the side of mine... The dealer had removed it themselves, since I guess people didn't like it and they wanted to sell it. I would've asked for it to be removed anyway. I personally didn't like it either. I do love the stripe though. :yes:

roadtrip se

06-26-2011, 06:34 PM

Funny thing, I never remember selling any two or three year old Donzis for half of their original MSRP price, Greg, not one, but the expectation in this community by some is that is exactly what should happen, even though it does not, except in desperation cases.

Then, when Donzi does put together a decent offer that costs some dough to build, market, and license (Shelby), everybody seems to think that the boat is too expensive, even when it really isn't in relative terms. This is the primary reason that the Classic has died on the vine. The real die hard community doesn't buy these boats, any way. The second reason, and not such a secret to most, is the fact that the later boats were spotty in quality and handling capabilities.

DV, I really like your idea. Retro rods and high end performance rods. One example is Chris Craft and their retro line of runabouts. Anybody price one of those lately? On the other end is Lipship selling $125K 20 Cigs.

This is the new reality, not I can have it all for $20K.

And you don't want to even know what I have in my 22. No one is going to buy it for half of what I paid for it new, that is for sure.
I would probably part it out, before giving it away to someone, any way.

Time to step up!

DonziJon

06-26-2011, 06:47 PM

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 06:51 PM

Road, the market was a different one in 2003-2006 so I agree with you "back then". Todays market, entirely different then back in the "easy finance" days

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 07:34 PM

roadtrip se

06-26-2011, 09:48 PM

Road, the market was a different one in 2003-2006 so I agree with you "back then". Todays market, entirely different then back in the "easy finance" days

Easy answer. The worst ecomomic times of an adult life time for most folks does not define a new market. Are you working for 50% of what you did before 2008? If you are, then your expectations are right on and our economy is completely screwed. Either way, Donzi will still not be building Classics at give-away prices and I can't blame them.

I bought a Formula from distressed factory inventory at an awesome price during the duress, but I am not expecting that price to be availble to me again, if I want another one in the future. BTW, those deals are no longer available, because Formula is building to order, just like Donzi.

roadtrip se

06-26-2011, 09:59 PM

DJ, I'm not sure I would give them that much credit. I think it is more along the lines of Buizilla's comment where they really don't want to sell Classics, so they price them where they won't and let the marketing go down the drain.

Um might be, but I think it is more like they don't want to build Donzis at a loss. Last time I checked, a Donzi was not a commodity, the only place you can get a new Donzi is from Donzi.

roadtrip se

06-26-2011, 10:07 PM

Is it possable.. that Donzi wants to elevate the Donzi Brand to .."ROLEX" Status...? I have NO doubt there are a few on this board who are impressed with someone who wears a Large Gold Rolex. A $5000 Rolex doesn't keep any better time than a $9.00 Casio. So what's the point. I think IT'S..."How Do I Look". :yes: :yes:
BTW: George has run across all kinds of discrepancies in Donzi Builds. ROLEX .... however overpriced...IS a good watch. ....:confused: DJ

Every male individual at Chattanooga last year was wearing a Rolex, which I found to be entertaining. I left mine at home, because I don't care to keep that close track of time when I am on vacation, especially on a Donzi vacation. Dam fine watches, by the way.

As for your Casio analogy, a pontoon boat will get you on the water, too. But a pontoon is not a Donzi.

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 10:16 PM

The worst economic times of an adult lifetime is precisely what defines a new market. It has nothing to do with what a given individual is earning, but what the perception is, by millions of individuals, legislators, and news outlets of what the state of affairs is in general. The first items to show a dramatic shift in price are "middle market" luxury items like boats. Its simply supply and demand. There are too many go fast boats, (and Donzi's) and not enough people with all cash interested in buying them.

roadtrip se

06-26-2011, 10:22 PM

Its simply supply and demand. There are too many go fast boats, (and Donzi's) and not enough people with all cash interested in buying them.

Exactly, so Donzi won't be building any new Classics, until they can make money doing so. Don't expect to buy a new one cheap or buy one at all. But I don't blame the economy, I blame the people who don't blink at dropping $40K on a tow vehicle, but scream at spending half of that on the Donzi behind it! End result? Better enjoy keeping that old Classic working and upgrading it.

Greg Guimond

06-26-2011, 10:22 PM

That said, I'm sure Donzi would make a very nice margin on a 16 that was sold at $79k. Like about $15 grand.

BUIZILLA

06-27-2011, 06:23 AM

Every male individual at Chattanooga last year was wearing a Rolex, which I found to be entertaining. I left mine at home, because I don't care to keep that close track of time when I am on vacation, especially on a Donzi vacation. Dam fine watches, by the way.
if every male wore a Rolex and you didn't, what does that make you? :eek: :cool:

roadtrip se

06-27-2011, 06:37 AM

if every male wore a Rolex and you didn't, what does that make you? :eek: :cool:

Somebody that doesn't feel the need to wear a watch on vacation? If you did notice, it was on my wrist for the AOTH run, but I'll let the rest of you wear your's in Chatt in a few weeks. Now if Rolex could build in a GPS speed function...

Carl C

06-27-2011, 07:07 AM

Off topic,

Why do so many men still wear watches when they have the exact time on the cell phone?:confused:

Back to topic. :)

mike o

06-27-2011, 07:39 AM

Um might be, but I think it is more like they don't want to build Donzis at a loss. Last time I checked, a Donzi was not a commodity, the only place you can get a new Donzi is from Donzi.Ok. to be fair, I didnt hear the 80 x (3) comment 1st hand to hold it to it's real meaning or context, said with a smile ect. Kind of interesting "tone" from VP of sales at one of the biggest boat shows in the world. Show full of folks that know 3 different size boats cant be the same $. Kinda of a head scratch-er for me. Not sure what my college marketing professor would say. Especally coming from a company thats just been consolidated, like it has. We all know everybody that see these classic's on the water or at the ramp drools over them more than a Baja outlaw.:kingme: Times are tough for sure. People look at the money they spend like it's coming out of their own wallets today. Thats the consumer mentality of our current financial times. No matter what they are buying, and are "very" educated consumers.

roadtrip se

06-27-2011, 07:52 AM

No doubt, Mike O. Atomic Carl and I had a regular show and shine going on this weekend when we pulled our boats out at Charlevoix. The boats drew a crowd.

So I just did a quick shopping trip for 20-23 foot 2009-2011 Chris Crafts. These boats are typically less motor (5.7), less drive (alpha), and less overall build quality than a Donzi Classic. If you like teak and some retro-styling with your family run-about, this will punch your ticket.

Asking price range? $65,900 to $86,910 for US-based boats. We saw a lot of them this weekend, too.

Greg Guimond

06-27-2011, 08:13 AM

Road, if Donzi did in fact get $79,000 for a 16 Classic, how much profit would that give them?

mattyboy

06-27-2011, 09:17 AM

This is if the 16 is it's own profit center.
if they use a 2.0 mark-up on COGS that means the cost of the boat to build including it's share of overhead for rent and utilities at the factory would be 39,500.
I am not up on bulk material cost but i would imagine 10k for mechanical rigging 20 k for the hull work leaving 9500 for payroll . figuring a company that has been building the boat for over 15 years can turn one out in a month that 9500 would cover 2 people with decent pay and some co pay benifits

can 2 people make a 16 in a month and be good at it if the factory is only getting one order or 2 a year???

what do you do with this 2 man team when not on a 16 if you put them onto another project and the 16 takes longer than a month the whole margin changes

roadtrip se

06-27-2011, 09:22 AM

Road, if Donzi did in fact get $79,000 for a 16 Classic, how much profit would that give them?

30-40% markup is the industry standard. As for the actual cost, I don't work for Donzi. So what is your point?

My point is that for a 22 Classic, at least, the price points to build a quality example are a bit higher than what some folks think. As for the 16 and 18, I guess you had better really want a new one.

Do we need to go shopping for 20-23 foot Cobalts and Malibus next as an additional barometer?

zelatore

06-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Off topic,

Why do so many men still wear watches when they have the exact time on the cell phone?:confused:

Back to topic. :)

I can't speak for every man, but I personally always wear my watch (just a Tag - no Rolex for me) even though I almost always have my phone with me because it's MUCH faster and easier to glance at my wrist than to pull my phone out of my pocket, turn it on, then put it back in my pocket.

So I just did a quick shopping trip for 20-23 foot 2009-2011 Chris Crafts. These boats are typically less motor (5.7), less drive (alpha), and less overall build quality than a Donzi Classic.

I agree with you about the power since most are small blocks, though a lot of the new Chris's are running Volvo Duo-props which are about the most expensive drive going short of the Merc Racing stuff. I don't think I've actually seen one with Merc power in my area - may just be a dealer preference thing.

On the other hand, I question the lower overall build quality than a new Classic. I haven't dug into a Chris to look at it in detail, but we know there are certainly some corners being cut on the late model Classics - George C would be glad to tell us about that. And there are plenty of details on the Chris that cost money; all that teak is expensive, the cool engine-turned dash, the custom cast cleats, more upholstery work than a Classic, etc

I happen to like both boats and agree that both can command a premium by selling on their heritage. But other than the power (and related gear like drive or steering) I have to think the Chris is a more expensive boat to build assuming like-for-like building practices which I think is fair.

Do you have some specific examples of things you didn't like on the Chris Crafts? Not saying they aren't there; just curious what they may be doing to cut corners.

As for the actual sales cost v. value of a new Classic...hard to say. I guess I'd fall into the camp that says they figure there isn't enough market for a small, (relatively) expensive performance boat but they don't want to yank them from the line-up entirely. So they offer them on a custom one-off basis at a price where they can make money. Yes, it costs more to do very limited production, but if somebody wants one bad enough they'll pay the price. Since Donzi isn't counting on this as a revenue stream, it's just a little gravy if they actually sell any. Or more likely, instead of gravy it's probably more like compensation for the hassle of pulling the time/material/man power from the regular production work to knock out a single example of a smaller boat.

At least that's my guess.

Ranman

06-27-2011, 09:53 AM

Off topic,

Why do so many men still wear watches when they have the exact time on the cell phone?:confused:

Back to topic. :)

I hope you're asking this as tongue in cheek...

There are plenty of reasons to wear a watch and since we're talking Rolexes here, I'll stick to those. Aside from personal expression (any watch), many fine watches such as Rolex, Tag, Panerai, Vacheron etc have specific purposes. In other words they are tools. Submariners are waterproof to 1000' and are made for diving. GMT's can tell time in multiple zones. A Milgauss is impervious to the strongest magnetic fields. Try diving with your cell phone and let me know how it goes :) .

Then there's the horological attraction to mechanical movements. Electronics are a dime a dozen and are made to be disposable. The Rolex (and others) mechanical watch movements are durable, beautiful, functional and true works of art. These timepieces are made to last a lifetime or longer. They are engineering feats. These watches in terms or materials, engineering and craftsmanship are the best of the best. Decades of refinement, trial and error and improvements.

Telling the time is only one small aspect of wearing a fine watch like Rolex. Most don't get this and most don't care which is perfectly fine. That's why they make and sell options like Timex. Sadly, there are others who actually wear Rolex and don't have a clue or any good appreciation for what they have. It's just a status symbol or whatever and for me this is usually where Rolex and A-holes are joined.

The history of mechanical movements and keeping time (horology) is interesting to me and I have a deep appreciation for what it takes to accomplish the feat of keeping time on my wrist with no batteries day in and day out wherever I go and whatever I do. It's a hobby, a facination and an expression of my interests and personality.

Carl C

06-27-2011, 10:31 AM

I hope you're asking this as tongue in cheek...

There are plenty of reasons to wear a watch and since we're talking Rolexes here, I'll stick to those. Aside from personal expression (any watch), many fine watches such as Rolex, Tag, Panerai, Vacheron etc have specific purposes. In other words they are tools. Submariners are waterproof to 1000' and are made for diving. GMT's can tell time in multiple zones. A Milgauss is impervious to the strongest magnetic fields. Try diving with your cell phone and let me know how it goes :) .

Then there's the horological attraction to mechanical movements. Electronics are a dime a dozen and are made to be disposable. The Rolex (and others) mechanical watch movements are durable, beautiful, functional and true works of art. These timepieces are made to last a lifetime or longer. They are engineering feats. These watches in terms or materials, engineering and craftsmanship are the best of the best. Decades of refinement, trial and error and improvements.

Telling the time is only one small aspect of wearing a fine watch like Rolex. Most don't get this and most don't care which is perfectly fine. That's why they make and sell options like Timex. Sadly, there are others who actually wear Rolex and don't have a clue or any good appreciation for what they have. It's just a status symbol or whatever and for me this is usually where Rolex and A-holes are joined.

The history of mechanical movements and keeping time (horology) is interesting to me and I have a deep appreciation for what it takes to accomplish the feat of keeping time on my wrist with no batteries day in and day out wherever I go and whatever I do. It's a hobby, a facination and an expression of my interests and personality.

Randy, I knew you were into quality timepieces but most men still have a watch on their wrist if you look around and they have mainly been relegated to jewelry rather than functionality. Then there are those who wear the fake Rolexes. I own two nice watches; Not top shelf, but nice. One is a Guess and one is a very sweet looking Mustang 35th Anniversary watch. I never wear either. Then again I've never worn much jewelry. I get the time off my cell or by the position of the sun :).

roadtrip se

06-27-2011, 11:35 AM

Randy hit it on the head about nice watches in general. It is an appreciation of a fine work of art, not the snob appeal, at least for most, in the circles I run in, including this one. Not that dis-similiar to a Donzi as a matter of fact.
As for the Chris Craft, Don, my general impression is that the materials are there, but the execution really isn't. Lackluster gel work, flimsy windshields, glue and caulk on the edges. Lots of shine, but get in under the hatch and behind the dash and things go to very typical, production quality levels. Good enough for the family runabout, but not rigged to performance standards. I do think it is a fair comaprison to the Classic, because it trades on retro styling, and Donzi could learn from the success it has had in the market at premium prices.

Donzi has had its quality issues in the recent past, but there were still alot of fine examples that made it down the line, so it isn't fair to characterize them all as problem children. Some were just better than others. Example, the Alan Jackson Shelby;that was a fine boat when I looked it over.

gcarter

06-27-2011, 11:36 AM

I beat the crap out of my Submariner Chronograph for about 27 years until the band wore through and it fell off my wrist.
I was able to snag another band off eBay, yes, it was a genuine band, but the watch desperately needs service.
Service costs more than I paid for the Seiko I'm currently wearing, so it'll stay on my dresser for awhile longer.........

I really DON'T look at my phone to get the time.
That's much too difficult to do.

gcarter

06-27-2011, 11:40 AM

Donzi has had its quality issues in the recent past, but there were still alot of fine examples that made it down the line, so it isn't fair to characterize them all as problem children. Some were just better than others. Example, the Alan Jackson Shelby;that was a fine boat when I looked it over.

The same applies to pre AMH boats.
Most had a number of issues, but a few like the Minx LE Buizilla and Catch22 owned were indeed outstanding.
They were clearly the exception though.

Fishermanjm

06-27-2011, 12:21 PM

I never go anywhere without mine GMT DivemasterII

mike o

06-27-2011, 12:25 PM

Donziweasel

06-27-2011, 01:38 PM

Just out of curiosity, how were the 009s controversial?

Sorry, haven't checked in in a while. There was a discussion on here about the 009 boats when they first came out. Seemed about a 50/50 split. 50% liked them, 50% did not.

Same discussion with the Shelby's, but it had a MUCH higher approval rating. I don't think anyone disliked them. Same with the Aronow Edition 22.

I wear a TAG like Don does by the way and love it. I have had it for 10 years. One day I will give it to my son. It seemed I was either too hung over or feeling too good last year at Chattanooga to look to see what kind of watch everyone was wearing.....too many Bushwackers.... :)

Will have to read everything posted here to comment on the Donzi stuff.

mattyboy

06-27-2011, 03:46 PM

I found it interesting the few comments on a thread here about the brand new left over 2009 18c for 42k in the Boston market being pricey. Now with this "tone" its a steal :yes:. I never thought it was high, just a reflection how people "think" about money these days. The new owners have lots of production space, tooling in house, no r+d tooling costs like the new Chris Crafts which are common around here also. Matt, I think 20k is high, they buy resin by the tanker truck price. White gelcoat is under $2.00/ pound by the drum. Glass is still cheap. I (can) make a call to find out what the Lobster boat guys get for hulls in Maine. They charge by the lb. Not sure how far everybody wants to go with this. Classic's are there own nitch in a struggling small boat market. That left over 18 dealership is on the ocean, but been to the Boston boat twice.:yes:
Mike
I thought it might be high so with my figures move some money out of the hull and over to the labor as I am sure they are paying a tad more then that to employees in washington. also the mechanical rigging is for non blue stock merc stuff too. throw in stuff like blue motors and external hydr. steering k planes and to keep the 2.0 COGS margin the price is way higher than 80k.

looks like the competition has moved a few boats in this market recently.

Greg Guimond

06-27-2011, 05:33 PM

That is a good question........what are the material and labor costs to build the 16 hull only? Is $20,000 too high?

I'm still saying that you have to get a 2012 16 Classic "Retro" out the door with trailer for a $45,000 price point.

HIGH LIFE

06-28-2011, 03:30 PM

Greg, Would be a good question to ask David Hartman ? "HIGH LIFE"

roadtrip se

06-28-2011, 03:39 PM

Greg, Would be a good question to ask David Hartman ? "HIGH LIFE"

What would Hornet know about the costs of building a Donzi?

mike o

06-28-2011, 04:57 PM

Mike
I thought it might be high so with my figures move some money out of the hull and over to the labor as I am sure they are paying a tad more then that to employees in washington. also the mechanical rigging is for non blue stock merc stuff too. throw in stuff like blue motors and external hydr. steering k planes and to keep the 2.0 COGS margin the price is way higher than 80k.

looks like the competition has moved a few boats in this market recently.Matt, Im looking at this only from a 16 for 80K perspective. :cool!:

Greg Guimond

06-28-2011, 05:23 PM

roadtrip se

06-28-2011, 07:49 PM

"quote=roadtrip se" 30-40% markup is the industry standard. As for the actual cost, I don't work for Donzi. So what is your point?

If 30%-40% is the industry standard markup, then I am REALLY having a hard time understanding why Donzi would not maintain the Classic series as a mainstream offering.

Really? Well, 30-40% has been the standard across the industry for as long as I can remember and not just for Donzi, but everybody who builds a boat.

Greg Guimond

06-28-2011, 08:05 PM

Maybe back in '03 to '06 but in today's market ............:confused:

Greg Guimond

06-28-2011, 08:14 PM

Matt, Im looking at this only from a 16 for 80K perspective. :cool!:

I agree, the factory can't apply the same economics to 16's, 18, and 22's. The demographic is very different. Maybe they get them in the door with a reasonable 16 price and then people are hooked to the experience.

VetteLT193

06-29-2011, 09:22 AM

30% is generally dealer markup (actually mark down is generally 30% off of MSRP) so you are talking 40-ish percent mark up.

I don't see what that has to do with builder markup / i.e., profit.

If the MSRP of recent special boats (shelby / 009) are in the 85k range, that puts Donzi's price at 60k; actual build cost at??

One would imagine that cutting out the dealer would make Donzi more market friendly, but it seems it has not based on the prices.

gcarter

06-29-2011, 05:30 PM

How about deducting the drive train?
If it retails for $25K, what's Donzi's cost? $13K-$15K? If it depends on how many they buy per year, I suppose Donzi would be in one of the lowest catagories w/probably 200 units per year.
I also think the dash would be in the $1,500-$1,800.00 range for Donzi.
Upholstery is probably $800-$1,000.
If these numbers are in the ball park, then we should be able to get to a hull cost.

Donzi Vol

06-29-2011, 05:42 PM

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I feel that it's doable. Tell ya what, Donzi, let us experts take care of it for you. We promise to be profitable! Haha.

But in all seriousness, a whole new campaign could be something that consumers would get excited about if marketed correctly. Let's not just try to sell a boat, let's sell a concept! I remember riding in a friend's new Z06 Corvette when they restyled them in 2008. It was an $80k vehicle, and Chevrolet sold quite a few under the pretense that it was a whole new concept of an American sports car. I'll never forget the friend of mine saying, "See, it's like a poor man's super car. I can't afford a Ferrari, but this sure is close!" There are plenty of Donzi dreamers out there who can't afford a 38zr, but who could afford a new 18 Classic with big power and the latest technology.

Greg Guimond

06-29-2011, 06:52 PM

Bingo Vol, position it differently and then perhaps offer some type of investment protection plan for buyers of 16's and 18's toward 22's.

George, those numbers have the right feel to them, maybe the upholstery is low. How much for all the misc brightwork and rubrail?

gcarter

06-29-2011, 07:12 PM

How much for all the misc brightwork and rubrail?

A third to a half of what they charge us for them, probably a third.

CHACHI

06-30-2011, 05:51 AM

gcarter

06-30-2011, 06:36 AM

[quote=Greg Guimond;606194]Bingo Vol, position it differently and then perhaps offer some type of investment protection plan for buyers of 16's and 18's toward 22's.

quote]

The Motor Company (Harley Davidson) way back in lets say '82-83ish, offered buyers of Sportsters, full sale price trade in toward a Big Twin with in a year of purchase of the Sporty. This is when HD came out with the EVO motor in the Big Twin. As we all know HD has been VERY successful in their sales over the 2 decades for a buch of different reasons, but I wonder how much this early sales program helped?

Ken

Some car company is offering depreciation insurance. Again, I think it's for a fairly short period of time.
Maybe something based on agreed upon condition and "subtractors" for less than perfect condition. Maybe some sort of plan so the program could be carried out to 3-5 years.

roadtrip se

06-30-2011, 08:36 AM

We have cycled on these concepts, twice, in the same thread. So let's try this again.

"quote=roadtrip se" 30-40% markup is the industry standard. As for the actual cost, I don't work for Donzi. So what is your point?

If 30%-40% is the industry standard markup, then I am REALLY having a hard time understanding why Donzi would not maintain the Classic series as a mainstream offering.

This one is simple. 30-40% mark-up on a bigger boat, performance or fish, is a lot more dough than a Classic.

Maybe back in '03 to '06 but in today's market ............:confused:

The costs to build a boat have gone up since then with rising material costs, can you say petroleum, and limited volumes to accrue fixed costs against.

The reality? Until people stop thinking that everything is a fire sale, luxury goods like small Donzi Classics for example, are not going to make a recovery. I see no way why Liberty would fund our community out of the kindness of their hearts and lose money. If somebody wants a new boat, like a tricked out 22, then good luck negotiating your best deal. Money talks and I bet that MSRP melts with it.

Greg Guimond

06-30-2011, 01:05 PM

[quote=Greg Guimond;606194]Bingo Vol, position it differently and then perhaps offer some type of investment protection plan for buyers of 16's and 18's toward 22's.

quote]

The Motor Company (Harley Davidson) way back in lets say '82-83ish, offered buyers of Sportsters, full sale price trade in toward a Big Twin with in a year of purchase of the Sporty. This is when HD came out with the EVO motor in the Big Twin. As we all know HD has been VERY successful in their sales over the 2 decades for a buch of different reasons, but I wonder how much this early sales program helped?

Ken

Harley is a great example of a company that revamped there products positioning in the marketplace more toward a "lifestyle" sell :yes:

zelatore

06-30-2011, 03:34 PM

The Motor Company (Harley Davidson) way back in lets say '82-83ish, offered buyers of Sportsters, full sale price trade in toward a Big Twin with in a year of purchase of the Sporty. This is when HD came out with the EVO motor in the Big Twin. As we all know HD has been VERY successful in their sales over the 2 decades for a buch of different reasons, but I wonder how much this early sales program helped?

Ken

My dealership ran a similar program a few years ago. Buy any new boat and trade it on something at least 20% bigger within a year, and we'll give you 100% trade.

It was fairly successful.

Naturally it was still in the buyer's best interest to buy the bigger boat up front as he would still loose nearly 10% sales tax paid on the first boat plus any money he spent on upgrades or additions, but for somebody who was uncertain about getting into a boat or not sure what size they might want it worked out pretty well.

Donzi could easily do something similar. The catch is would people who buy Classics be upgrading to the big Z boats or is it too much of a different market/price gap?

BUIZILLA

06-30-2011, 03:58 PM

Hyundai dealers are doing that down here...

can't deliver cars fast enough

GBond

06-30-2011, 05:06 PM

My dealership ran a similar program a few years ago. Buy any new boat and trade it on something at least 20% bigger within a year, and we'll give you 100% trade.

It was fairly successful.

Naturally it was still in the buyer's best interest to buy the bigger boat up front as he would still loose nearly 10% sales tax paid on the first boat plus any money he spent on upgrades or additions, but for somebody who was uncertain about getting into a boat or not sure what size they might want it worked out pretty well.

Donzi could easily do something similar. The catch is would people who buy Classics be upgrading to the big Z boats or is it too much of a different market/price gap?

That would be an interesting poll Zelatore. The marketing department would be grateful as well, I'm sure.

Does Donzi make anything other than the Classic?:biggrin:

Donziweasel

06-30-2011, 07:28 PM

Donzi could easily do something similar. The catch is would people who buy Classics be upgrading to the big Z boats or is it too much of a different market/price gap?

People buy classics not just for the size, but also for the styling. I am not sure it would work. Plus, right now, a 27 ZR would be the smallest. Moving up from an 18 to a 27 is a pretty big leap. You have to ake sure you have the rig to even tow it. I just think people buy Classics because they are Classics, not so much the size.

Greg Guimond

06-30-2011, 08:30 PM

My thinking was to offer the trade up protection only for the 16 and 18 into the 22's.

Marlin275

06-30-2011, 09:13 PM

My thinking was to offer the trade up protection only for the 16 and 18 into the 22's.

Thats a good one . . .

once a Classic

always a Classic . . .

If I didn't have an X-18
the 22 would be better for the water we run?

somedays the NY Harbor
is a ten foot washing machine
on steroids

roadtrip se

07-01-2011, 08:01 AM

Not to put a dent in the momentum here, as I like daydreaming with the best of them, but economic reality does get in the way...

Buiz, Hyundai is predicted to sell 800,000 units in the US next year. In a great year, and I am talking AMH days, Donzi might have sold 50. The risk factor is a bit different for Liberty.

I would also mention the fact that Donzi, during AMH days, reluctantly built Classics in the hopes that we would step up into their bigger, higher profit offers, which didn't prove out too well for them. This profit motive is now greatly accented with the limited volumes. And if you had seen and witnessed what I did at the Miami Boat Show, you would realize that the Classic is the elephant in the room for anyone working for Liberty. They don't even want to talk about it.

Greg, weren't you the one that suggested earlier here that the market is different and that two to three year old Donzis are worth significantly less than what a new one would be? While I don't agree with this, as I previously stated, what is Donzi supposed to do with a 16 or 18 Classic trade that is going to get low-ball offers at 50% of the original selling price by guys like you? You can't have it both ways with firesale market pricing expectations and a guarenteed trade policy. Not going to happen.

As I said earlier, time to step up if you want a new Classic!

Donziweasel

07-01-2011, 10:19 AM

Wonder what a Lenco costs? :) :) :)

Greg Guimond

07-01-2011, 11:51 AM

roadtrip se

07-01-2011, 12:22 PM

Road, if the starting point is $79,000 for a 16 Classic then I agree all of it goes down the drain. You would have to really look at the cost structure and you would need to have a broader discussion about re-launching an iconic brand and how to leverage that in the marketplace overall. As far as salesfolks in a booth, I have found that most of those folks A) Have no true product knowledge B) should not even be in sales C) Have more interest in talking about how many drinks they had the night before

I can't say for sure if the Classic brand is or is not viable, but I'm pretty confident no deep dive conversations took place. Hell, you could easily assemble 10-15 person focus group of real world owners and prospects in several key markets and perhaps start your fact finding there.

"Low Ball" btw is the wrong descriptive. I would call them current market offers. Hey, you may not like the current market, but that's a different thing altogether.

Sorry Greg, but my conversation with Donzi was with their executives, not with some hungover salesperson. And BTW, I am a life-long sales person and nothing happens until somebody sells something, so your characterization isn't cool or funny at all with me, just derogatory.

Secondly, the "current market" you were previously talking about was the market for current used Classics, AS YOU SEE IT, not the future market for a $79K 16 Classic. Just because somebody was able to steal a boat from somebody who really needed the money in a down economy does not define the "current market", it reflects a blip in the market. Read this twice, if you must, maybe three times, because I have articulated this point three times here. Your new "current market" has dried up, as I don't see a lot of people anxious to give their boats away now and Donzi isn't going to build any more, unless they can make money at it. No need for a customer focus group to discover or monitor this circumstance, just look at the trader-style web sites.

We do agree on one thing. $79K is a not-going-to-happen price for a 16. For a 22, it is, which has been the basis of all of statments here, "current market" or not. And a "low ball" is a "low ball", no other way to describe it.

mike o

07-01-2011, 12:46 PM

What was the justification for pricing the 16 the same as a 22. It, just does not make sense from a sales or marketing perspective? What car or other boat company does that?

Greg Guimond

07-01-2011, 01:09 PM

We can agree to disagree Road. I have no problem with that.

Mike, great question and part of what leads me to print the opinions I did.

gcarter

07-01-2011, 08:05 PM

Actually, I think Todd's argumets could be used to justify Donzi hiring (liscencing) Hornet Marine or some other small shop that's set up to be profitable at much smaller margins than Donzi is, to build Classics.

Best of both worlds;

Donzi Classics would be built.
It would help Hornet to be established.
Donzi would lose none of it's large boat building capacity to build smaller boats it doesn't wat to build.
I'm sure others could add to this list.

Ghost

07-01-2011, 11:04 PM

Actually, I think Todd's argumets could be used to justify Donzi hiring Hornet Marine or some other small shop that's set up to be profitable at much smaller margins than Donzi is, to build Classics...

You beat me to it.

Donzi Vol

07-01-2011, 11:30 PM

Sounds like a plan to me. Plenty of positives.

roadtrip se

07-02-2011, 09:14 AM

Interesting idea, I agree.

FWIW, I had heard rumbles that Donzi had comptemplated selling off the molds a year or so ago.

Josh is building small fiberglass parts, including my new Aronow hatch right now, via Donzi Direct. So maybe, this idea has some feasability. C'mon Josh, if you can do one piece, you can do it all!

As for Hornet, they have been debated more than once here, but all of that aside, I wasn't very impressed with their product quality or finish when I got a look at it first hand. So they would have to build a boat to a higher standard and stop splashing and denying it. I await their logging in here and defending their position shortly, but I'm not buying it.

This idea does have some legs. I have another candidate. Formula. Awesome facility, great people, and excess capacity. But the Fountain factory has all of this, too. A boutique builder like Kryptonite, Super Boat, or Pantera would be a better candidate for something like this, if they would even be interested.