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View Full Version : Time for a break 2 (Must see)



Jraysray
05-19-2011, 10:46 AM
PT Boat 658 - The only functional, restored, PT boat left in the world! Operating out of Portland, Oregon (http://videos2view.net/PT658.htm)

Conquistador_del_mar
05-19-2011, 10:55 AM
That was fun to watch - thanks. Bill

Sweet little 16
05-19-2011, 11:23 AM
great story, and a great job. Had a chance to see one back in the late 80's at the servicemen's museuem in Buffalo I think that's the name) . They had a destroyer USS the Sullivans( named for the brothers who gave their life in service of their country in the navy). As you take the tour from destroyer to cruiser to sub when you get to the PT Boat you understand the difference between a boat and a ship.

the PT boat has great lines to it too.

Thanks that was a nice break

silverghost
05-19-2011, 12:09 PM
As a kid I used to take speedboat rides on the "Flying Saucer" a converted Navy Surplus 77 foot PT Boat run by an old rum-runner Capt. Chris Montagna in Ocean City NJ.
This boat had it's three original supercharged 1800 Horsepower Packard V-12 PT engines. running on high 100+ octane aviation gas.
5400 Total Horsepower. burning 300 gal/hour.
1200 total capacity.
This boat was featured in Sept 1953 Popular Science Mag in the 50s; and was then called "The World's Largest & Fastest Passenger Carrying Speedboat Ride" It carried 125+ people and was said to be able to go 90MPH fully loaded.
You could hear it comming a mile away.
Capt. Chris Montagna owner had his good friend speedboat racer Gar Wood & his speedboat hull designer re-design the aft section of the PT hull
and add large twin air fin rudders that were fully functional & syncronized with the boat's three rudders.
Arno Apel & his race-boat building crew at the famous Ventnor Boat Works did the actual speedboat conversion.
This boat ran every summer until the mid 1970s .

Best speedboat ride boat I was ever on.
What a blast !

Anyone else remember The "Flying Saucer" PT speedboat ?

Do a goggle Search for Flying Saucer Speedboat Chris Montagna Ocean City NJ for Google photo images and additional info.
There is much mis-information on this boat out there today...
It was indeed a 77 foot converted surplus PT with Packard 1800 HP, MK IV supercharged PT boat engines.
Chis also owned & ran a smaller scaled-down 55 foot converted PT boat clone called the "Flying Pony" with Packard PT engines that was also converted for speedboat ride use.

zelatore
05-19-2011, 03:25 PM
There are at least a couple more of these guys scattered around the delta. I can think of 2 that look pretty rough but are at least floating.

(at least I think they're PTs; I haven't stopped to look very close)

silverghost
05-19-2011, 04:28 PM
I talked to a guy at a marine museum where they have an Elco PT & a Huckins PT on display a few years ago.
He told me that there were only eight PT hulls still known to exist in the USA at that time.
When the war in the Pacific ended most of the PT boats were rafted together near one island and ordered burned while their crews sadly looked on; rather than bring them home.
There are two great WW II movies on PT boats.
PT-109 (Cliff Robertson)
&
They Were Expendable.
John Wayne)

The PT 73 from the 60s TV show Mchale's Navy was not a true PT boat but was a much smaller Vosper Rex that was being built for the Soviets under the "lend lease program". It was never delivered .When the war ended. Howard Hughes bought it at surplus & used it for a time before it was sold to the TV production studio.
It broke-up and sunk in Calif in the 1990s.
It now appears it was later salvaged from the deep & just restored .

silverghost
05-19-2011, 05:22 PM
As a Kid I used to "hang-out" at Chris's Seafood Restauraunt dock where owner Chris Montagna had four surplus PT boats.
Three were converted to fishing head boats~
the "Wild Goose", "Flying Cloud", Gone With the Wind"
And the forth the Famous "Flying Saucer speedboat.
He also had a smaller custom built speedboat the "Flying Pony" speedboat.
Capt Chris once told Dad & I that he paid $4000 each for the Surplus NEW PT boats just after WWII.
He also bought a dozen Packard PT boat engines as spares.
Chris was great long-time friends with Frank Sinatra (go figure~~~"The Pinkey Ring Boys" all seemed to know one another" and Frank would often stay at Capt. Chris's large Ocean City NJ compound while appearing at various Atlantic City NJ hotels.
Frank, his friends, & Capt Chris Montagna would often take the Flying Saucer PT out for a private ride.
We saw Frank while we were passing this very large Montagna home compound by boat several times in the 60s & early 70s.
He would wave to us every time.
You would read in the local newspaper the next week that Frank Sinatra was spotted in town last week.
Capt. Chris Montagna always claimed to have made his very large fortune with a fleet of commercial fishing boats. He did in fact have a fishing fleet~
BUT~~~
The real truth was that Capt. Chris, born in 1900/ Naples Italy, was a big-time South New Jersey prohabition era rum-runner who used his fleet of fast speedboats to pick-up illegal booze offshore from Joe Kennedy's mother ships beyond USA legal limits in international waters.
He then ran this prohabition era illegal booze to New York, New Jersey , & Philadelphia & Atlantic City NJ.
Everyone in the Ocean City & Atlantic City NJ area knew this was in fact true.
He and his other hired captains were never caught as they had a well-connected "Friendly Judge" Thompson (Uncle Jack Thompson's Uncle) in the area that made any possible charges disappear.
"Uncle Jack Thompson ran the famous Thompson Boat Works. The rum-runner boats were built & repaired there .

I was just informed that these supercharged Packard PT could each consume 160 gallons per hour at full flank speed.
At these higher speeds the engines would not live for too many hours before needing a re-build.
Capt. Chris had his own in-ground aviation-gas fuel tanks as well.
He bought all his aviation fuel & gasoline wholesale.

DannyK
05-20-2011, 10:11 AM
Nice video, thanks for posting it Jraysray. There's another sitting in a boatyard on Stock Island Fl. It was used for tours around Key West in the late 90s and is pretty much complete except for guns and torpedos. BTW, my Dad, a USN Commander, "requesitioned" one from the scrapyard in the 50s. He had a blast using it for beer...I mean "training" runs !

silverghost
05-23-2011, 02:23 AM
The 1945 John Wayne PT Boat movie~
"They Were Expendable"

is on Comcast Cable FREE "On Demand" now this month on TCM (Turner Classic Movies) if you wish to Check-It-Out .
If you have Comcast Cable~
It's FREE !

Carl C
05-23-2011, 06:47 AM
There are two great WW II movies on PT boats.
PT-109 (Cliff Robertson)
&
They Were Expendable.
John Wayne)


I just watched They Were Expendable and the PT boats were very impressive (other than that the movie sucked IMHO!).

silverghost
05-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Carl:
I agree~
Bad War Dept. WW II typical propganda movie.

I watch it for the PT boats.
The boats look short because the film frame was squeesed to fit TV.
PTs were 77-80 feet long in reality.
On their transom stern's you can see their version of "silent choice" which could be switched on & off.
Most of the PT boats that survived the Pacific war were rafted together and their crews were forced to burn them.
After Pearl Harbor the PTs were some of the few boats we had left in that Pacific area to fight with early in the war. The aircraft carriers & PTs were basically the only ships we had left at that early time in the Pacific war..

PT 109 is a far better PT boat movie~~
It too... was Joe Kennedy's attempt at made-up propaganda .
Partially based on some facts & fiction about his son John F. Kennedy..
It is in Color.

silverghost
05-25-2011, 03:57 AM
The movie PT 109 is now on Comcast Cable "On Demand" for $2.99
There is also a free short preview. In Color !
Go to "On Demand: then do a search for PT 109.

Just watched it last night~
Far better PT boat movie than "They Were Expendable" :shocking:
Enjoy .

Walt. H.
05-25-2011, 12:49 PM
This one that has been converted for tourist rides and social events that runs out of where I boat on the Kingston, NY area of the Rondout bay/creek that leads into the Hudson river.
The owner has three others that are in various stages of restoration with one currently up forsale.
http://www.pt728.com/

http://empirestatemaritime.org/vessel.php?id=36

There are other web-site links pertaining to this boat just do a search if you want, also it never seen action due to it's build completion just days before or after Japan surrendered...

silverghost
05-25-2011, 05:18 PM
Walt~
This fellow & his group of PT boat frends have been searching the country and trying to save the few existing known PT boats that are left.
Some of his finds have been very rough & abused boats that were weeks from the chainsaw & burn-pile.
They have saved about 1/3 of the known surviving examples.
Bit by bit they are saving our US Navy PT boat history.

Walt. H.
05-26-2011, 12:12 AM
Yeah he's into everything, he's a rich retired NYC lawyer who is also buying up as much property along the Kingston city water front as possible, and his so called crew doesn't know the meaning of the no wake 4-mph zone when he runs that boat past every marina in town throwing a white water rolling 10-12 mph 1-ft wake, and looks at you stupid with what's your problem when you motion to slow it down.

RightLurker
05-29-2011, 12:31 PM
I have attempted to attach an image to this post. Don't know if it will work or not. Will try again if it doesn't.

silverghost
05-29-2011, 01:11 PM
I have attempted to attach an image to this post. Don't know if it will work or not. Will try again if it doesn't.

WOW~
Where did you ever come-up with that old photo ?
And~
Do you have any more photos ?
I rode on the Flying Saucer for years from the mid 1950s~
To it's very last year in the mid 1970s when it was sadly side-lined.

I was devistated to hear that it was sadly destroyed.

You did not want to drive behind that boat comming in the Great Egg Harbor/ Ocean City NJ inlet.
We found this out the hard way .

To this day I think of this great speedboat.
Just think of what the cost of fuel per trip would be today to run that boat with 100+ octane Aviation fuel ?

Another fantastic childhood memory now sadly long gone.

RightLurker
05-29-2011, 01:21 PM
I've been obsessed with that boat since about 1955 when I first saw it, and have accumulated some photos from various sources - internet, books, postcards, etc. Here are a few more pictures. One is an image of the Popular Mechanics or Popular Science magazine article.

silverghost
05-29-2011, 01:41 PM
I've been obsessed with that boat since about 1955 when I first saw it, and have accumulated some photos from various sources - internet, books, postcards, etc. Here are a few more pictures. One is an image of the Popular Science magazine article.

And I thought I was the only one that was obsessed with Chris's Flying Saucer & Fying Pony.
I have that September 1953 Popular Science mag. at home here.
I remember the big fuel explosion in front of the yacht club.
Dad & I visited the Flying Saucer at the boatyard up the river a week after that event.
I also remember when Chris hit a log and he had to run her up on the beach to save her from sinking.
We also rode on the Flying Pony & fished on the Wild Goose another converted PT boat.
Remember the"Flying Cloud" & little used "Gone With the Wind" ~~~also PT boats.

I used to hang-out on Chris's docks as a kid.
I was all over those boats at his dock & at the boatyard.
I knew Capt Chris well !

The Flying Pony sat in the weeds at the boatyard for years~
Finally it was sold.
I heard it was later lost.

Give me a call sometime to talk about these great old boats.
Brad Hunter
215 947 4676

RightLurker
05-29-2011, 01:54 PM
Back in the 1990s I talked to John Yank III (who owns Ocean Rockets). At the time he was operating the "new" Flying Saucer back on Bay Avenue north of 9th Street. He and his father took care of Chris's boats - the Yank family owns Yank Marine in Tuckahoe, New Jersey. I asked him whatever became of the original Flying Saucer after the explosion/fire. According to him, Chris Montagna thought about rebuilding it, but the Coast Guard was all over him and said if he wanted to run the boat again, he could only use two engines, which Chris wouldn't accept. The Flying Saucer sat on a railroad flatcar at Yank Marine for some time, and finally it was off-loaded and smashed to pieces by a wrecking ball and tossed in dumpsters. (The Packard 4M 2500 engines were removed and sold to collectors.)
Here's the saddest picture in my small collection.

silverghost
05-29-2011, 02:02 PM
Actually the Saucer did run after the fire & explosion.
It was repaired .
Years later the hull was damaged going out the Great Egg Harbor inlet & hitting the sand bar. The double planked bottom was damaged & a hull chine was cracked. The Coast Guard wanted Capt. Chris to remove the center engine.
Chris refused~
He orderd the boat to be sidelined .
It was later sadly crushed & demolished.

Call Me Today~
I have lots of great Chris Montagna stories !

RightLurker
05-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Oh, and I asked John Yank how fast the Flying Saucer would really go. That "90 miles an hour" claim seemed a bit far-fetched to me. He said in the right water conditions, without a lot of passengers, it could get up to 60 knots. When they ran it with passengers, Yank said they'd do 30 to 35 knots. I never rode on the boat, but I understand the real thrill was during the turns, when the rear two-thirds of the boat disappeared in spray.

silverghost
05-29-2011, 04:35 PM
The "Flying Saucer" speedboat was very famous in it's day ~
Thousands of people from all over the USA & Canada would come to Ocean City NJ just to have a fast thrill ride on her.
She made six trips every day from memorial day through Labor day.
Most trips had a full capacity of passengers.
Capt Chris Montagna had eight licenced captains that worked for him.
BUT~
He ALWAYS drove the "Flying Saucer" and smaller "Flying Pony" speedboats himself.
He would NOT allow anyone else to drive them.
He once told us it was because of all that 5400 horsepower & speed.
In reality I believed he just loved driving these two speedboats.
The "Flying Saucer" was his baby~~~
He LOVED that speedboat.
He once allowed me to sit in the drver's cockpit with him.
I was allowed to steer the helm briefly and push the three throttles forward for a time on that trip, while he stood right next to me.
Half the fun of riding on the Saucer was indeed getting wet.
Capt Chris would turn into his own wake & spray at speed while ducking behind his windshield.
The resulting spray was like a fire hose.
Eveyone was drenched !
Great fun!
The salty spray stung your eyes.
Dad & I always picked warm days for our rides and wore bathing suits & T shirts.
In the color photo posted above you can see the stern of the much smaller "Flying Pony" speedboat which had Packard PT Boat engines.
The "Flying Saucer" had three.
5400 HP total !
In my mind I can still hear the sound of those powerful Packard V12 engines with their large intercooled supercharger blowers.
Capt. Cris Montagna was alway fighting with the Coast Guard Inspectors.
They finally had their way and Chris sold the restauraunt and all his boats except the "Flying Saucer" & 'Flying Pony".
Chris finally ordered the Saucer to be scrapped.
Two of it's engines live-on in marine museums.
The other engne is now in the hands of a vintage speedboat collector who is building a reproduction wooden mahogany speedboat around it.

The much smaller "Flying Pony" sat lonely and almost forgotten in Holtz boatyard in the weeds for years.
Holtz was later bought-out by the Yank family I believe.
Finally in the later 80s some guys from Florida bought her with the intent of restoring her as a Forida speedboat ride.
It was painted yellow and trucked by flatbed to Florida where I heard it hit a reef or sandbar and sadly sunk.
Capt Chris was a very sad man when the Coast Guard would not allow the "Flying Saucer" to be licenced & used any longer with it's three engnes.
He often stated that he could not disappoint his speedboat passenger customers by removing one of it's three engines.
Instead he sold-out and retired along with his speedboats.
We can tell you first hand that this Very rough & Very tough guy was now crushed.
Dad & I often invited Capt Chris on fishing trips, or rides on Dad's many boats.
He always declined~
He could no longer bear to be on the water without his beloved "Flying Saucer"speedboat.
He could often be seen on the land at his compound fishing from the steel bulkheads.
We would often visit him.
When the "Flying Saucer" subject was brought-up you could see tears well-up in his eyers~
He was indeed a very rough-tough man~
But he had a heart of gold.
He did a great deal to put Ocean City NJ on the map as a top South New Jersey Tourist Resort that it remains to this very day.
He sadly missed that old PT ride speedboat.
Today I still miss the "Flying Saucer" & "Flying Pony"~~~
I miss Capt. Chris Montagna, and his speedboats more than anything else in Ocean City NJ.
He was very nice to a small "water-rat kid" like me throughout the many years~~~.
I think Dad , I, and Capt Chris all loved the great world famous "Flying Saucer" !
Every tme I come over the 9th street bridge to this very day into Ocean City I think of my old pal Capt. Chris Montagna & the "Flying Saucer"
It brings a tear to my eyes every time.
What great childhood memories~

Side Note:
How did the famous "Flying Saucer" speedboat get her name ?

Capt. Chris once told us that when he first bought & converted this surplus Navy PT boat he would often take her on shake-down test rides before finding a final name for her.
Now~~~
You could hear these three Packard supercharged PT V12s .from many miles away.
People would often ask when hearing their sound & seeing the giant sea spray cloud from the beaches ~~~
What the heck is that ? ~~~
(Flying Saucers were a very popular subject in the early 1950s~ Remember our Air Force's "Operation Blue Book"? Evryone was "SEEING Flying Saucers~ If only in their own minds. )
One common answer to that question was~~~
"That was a Flying Saucer you just saw & heard" !
Capt Chris liked that answer to the often asked "What the heck was that" question so the great "Flying Saucer" name stuck !
Now I am one of the very few people alive today who can now say that they indeed once saw ~~~
And ~~~
actually rode in a real "Flying Saucer " !

silverghost
05-29-2011, 06:40 PM
Long before Capt Chris retired I was driving our Family's NEW 1972 Donzi X-18 Berkeley/Olds 455 Jet boat past his docks heading for the Ocean City 9th street bridge.
It was only my third ride in our NEW Donzi.
I heard someone shouting at me & it was Capt. Chris Montagna standing in the "Flying Saucer's" Engine room hatch.
He was dressed from head to toe in his white outfit as usual and was waving me over to the "Flying Saucer".
To my suprize he asked me if he could take the Donzi X-18 out for a spin? In that unique accent of his ?
He had been looking at our Donzi for some time ~~~as it was a new boat in our town~~~AND a rare jet drive to boot.
Now NOBODY said NO to Capt. Chris~
SO~~~
I replied "Sure" and he jumped aboard & I attempted to get out~~~
"No~No~~~
You sit-down & I will take YOU for a ride"~~~ he ordered.
Now we had just bought this Donzi X-18 jet boat a few weeks before off the Philly boat-show floor for, $8700. +/- in 1972 money~~~~ I believe, ~~~and my Dad & Uncle made me promise to take it easy & break the engine in slowly for the first few hundred hours at lower & variable engine speeds.
Capt Chris took her out into the Great Egg Harbor Bay and turned left at the OC Yacht-club.
He then opened her wide-open and we screamed up toward Ship's Channel in Somers Point NJ.
I could not believe that great ride with Capt. Chris at her helm .
He put the boat through it's paces. and stopped at Howard Haines's old Somers Point boatyard and asked old Howard for some open-end wrenches.
He unlocked the Mallory Distributor and advanced the engine's timing.
He then times the Olds 455 by ear.
Then~~~ off we went again with Capt. Chris at the helm~~~
only this time Much Much faster~~~
The ride lasted for about an hour.
We both had Big smiles on our faces.~~~From ear -to-ear.
Capt. Chris was a real speed deamon.
When he finally returnd to his docks he thanked me for the "Thrill-Ride"and stuffed some cash bills in my shirt pocket.
"Braddy-Boy~~~
Here ~~~BUY yourself some Hi-Test Gas & change your engine's new break-in oil~~~ and then take your girlfiriends out for a ride !"

I asked how he liked the Donzi Jet ?~~~
And he replied~
"Great little Speedboat~~~
But~~~
I'm used to much MORE horsepower !"
You're a very lucky kid~~~ Thank's for the thrill-ride" He then winked at me and walked away.
I then knew immediately he had enjoyed that Donzi jet-boat ride as much, or MORE than I .
Now the Olds 455 in the 1972 Donzi X-18 Berkeley jet was rated at 390 Horses.
The three Packard V12s in his great "Flying Saucer" PT ride speedboat were rated at 5400 HP Total.

Still stunned by this very FIRST~~~ & FAST "thrill-ride" I slowly pulled away from his docks~~~

I would never drive the New X-18 slow again ~~~It supplied us with "thrill-Rides" for the next five seasons.
AT LEAST~~~
Until my uncle secretly SOLD it after the fifth season without telling us.

OH~~~
And by the way~
Capt. Chris had stuffed two $100. bills in my shirt pocket for some gas and My Donzi's first oil change.
What a GREAT guy ! .

RightLurker
05-29-2011, 08:19 PM
Chris Montagna overseeing his passengers before shoving off.

silverghost
05-29-2011, 10:55 PM
YEP~~~
That's our old buddy Capt. Chris Montagna standing on the right side of the photo~~~
Dressed from head~to~toe all in white.
He was always spotless.
Sitting on the Ocean City NJ beach-front you could set your watch from the time the "Flying Saucer" would pass your beach block.
He would run-into the surf to almost where the ocean's waves just started to just break.
Everyone would stop whatever they were doing and just watch the "Flying Saucer" pass by at high speed.
What a great sight.
If I were to try to decribe the sound this fantastic speedboat boat made ?~~~
Well~~~
It sounded like a WWII B-17 bomber flying overhead at very low altitude at high speed.
It gave his bay-front seafood restauraunt some fantastic free advertising.
Much better than an airplane towing a sky banner sign.
He had a free bus that would pick you, and your entire family ,up at the boardwak and bring you right to his bayside seafood restauraunt & ride boat docks.
He would also give out free speedboat ride passes to many of his diners with children.
Capt. Chris was a true "Class-Act" all the way !

Everyone in Ocean City Nj loved Capt Chris & his eight ride and party fishing boats.
BUT~
The "Flying Saucer" PT boat was by far everyone's all time favorite.

silverghost
05-30-2011, 01:41 AM
Here is the very BEST PHOTO of the Flying Saucer converted surplus PT Boat taken in the 1960s that I have found yet~
Here is the photo link below~

Thank's to~~~ Yank and Sons Ocean Rockets Inc. Boatyard website.
http://yankandsons.com

http://yankandsons.com/images/gallery/flying_saucer_chris.jpg

Ghost
05-30-2011, 10:12 AM
Brad, thanks for sharing those memories, sweet and sad alike. -Mike

silverghost
05-30-2011, 12:50 PM
Here are two great website pages with "Flying Saucer" PT boat photos~

http://www.flickr.com/photos/saucer

http://www.flickr.com/photos/saucer/page2/

Ghost
05-31-2011, 11:26 AM
Brad,

One question I had from looking over a bunch of those links. I keep seeing the number "90 mph" bounced around for the Flying Saucer's top speed. (Which I assume is something hopelessly off which just got propagated around like any myth or rumor.)

I was curious, given your firsthand knowledge of the boat, what you thought it would actually do speedwise.

As background, when I dig around for PT boat speed specs, I see claims ranging from about 30 mph to maybe 47 mph. I figure the Flying Saucer shed a fair amount of weight from the original (weapons, superstructure, etc.) and it sounded like Chris Montagna also added about 20% to the power. So, I was imagining it might have realistically topped out somewhere between 35 and 65 MPH. But that's a HUGE range. Was curious if you had a better idea what the reality was.

Regards,

Mike

silverghost
05-31-2011, 03:34 PM
Mike:
Actually old Capt. Chris did everything he could to propagate that 90 MPH figure.
It was in ALL his advertising, local newspaper articles , Popular Science, ride tickets, etc.
The boat had the very last models ever built of the higher horsepower Packard V 12 engines with very large spercharger blowers for 5400 total horse power, three custom props designed by famed racer Gar Wood.
Wood & his chief race/ speedboat designer also changed the bottom & transom design to closely match his famous "Miss America" race boat hulls.
In it's conversion from Navy PT to "Thrill Ride" boat it shed all it's guns, armor, torpedos,cabin,extra fuel tanks, water tanks, generator set, crew's bunks, fridge, galley stove, etc.
The aft end of the hull was also tapered down & tapered in, at the aft 2/3 of the hull.
All this said~
Yank Boat Works, where Capt. Chris stored his boat in winter, stated a figure of 60 knots (just under 70 MPH) under ideal conditions with a light fuel & passenger load.
I would guess that 70 MPH was a more realistic top speed figure~~~
But only our old buddy Capt. Chris really knew for sure.
And he ALWAYS maintained top speed was 90 MPH.
Perhapps this is another reason why he would never allow anyone else to drive the "Flying Saucer" ?
In the end~~~
Who REALLY knows for sure ?
Since the "Flying Saucer" is now only a distant memory~~~
I guess we shall never know for sure ?
AND~
Sadly~~~
Our old Buddy Captain Chris Montagna is sadly no longer with us.
He took this 90 MPH speed secret with him.

DonziJon
05-31-2011, 06:18 PM
I've been following this thread since the beginning, with great (and skeptical)
interest. I have always been interested in PT boats. Unlike most of you..I am an OLD FART. I was born across the bay from the ELCO plant....Bayonne, NJ, where the ELCO's were built...before the war started. I now live less than a mile from where the PT crews were trained.

The 80' ELCOs were the last, and best development of the PT boat when the war ended.

The PT's had (3) 4M-2500 "supercharged" (not turbocharged) Packards of about 1300HP each. They were capable of about 26-35 Knots (30-40 MPH) under IDEAL conditions. In wartime that never happened.

The Myth of the PTs prowess was promoted by the war department to bolster the country's morale right after Pearl Harbor.

Some of the stuff in this thread .....is bogus and misleading at the least. :yes: DJ

BTW: PTs had NO ARMOR whatsoever...Just Sayin..

RightLurker
06-01-2011, 04:55 PM
For those interested, here is a link to a short article on the Packard 4M 2500:

http://www.ptboats.org/20-01-05-ptboat-008.html

Here is a link to a longer article:

http://www.outlawpulling.com/PDF/Packard%20Marine%20Engine.pdf

silverghost
06-01-2011, 05:55 PM
During WW iI there was quite a bit of high performance engine development.
The Packard PT engine , as well as the famous Rolls~Royce Merlin fighter aircraft engines went through four stages of horsepower development.

There was a final MK IV version of this Packard V12 that was indeed 1800 horsepower.
These are the engines that Capt Chris had in his "Flying Saucer".
As I remember the supercharger blower located on the end of the engine was much larger as were it's carbs.
If you search around the web you will photos of this final Packard varient as well as descriptions of the engine & it's horsepower development.
There were once lots of these surplus engines sitting around. since the war.
The tractor-pull folks have discovered these engines and are slowly blowing them up each weekend.
Soon a Rolls~Royce Merlin, Griffon, the Allison, & the PT Packards will only be found sitting in museums.

I know it's hard to believe the often stated performance figure of 90 mph for the "Flying Saucer."
Some folks to this very day swear it's true.
I have always doubted this exact speed claim.
BUT ~
If you ever saw the "Flying Saucer" first hand in action, or better yet had a "Thrill Ride" on her you might be a believer.

In her day there were many articles written on the world famous "Flying Saucer"
There was NEVER any other large speedboat like her.
AND~
There is none today.

Popular Science & Popular Mechanics, did several articles on her~
The onle article that was posted above is from the September 1953 Popular Science mag.
And~
In fact she also appeared in the Guinness Book of World Records in her day.

If you seach the many web Ocean City NJ blogs about her you will see quite a bit of un-true miss-information that folks have written about the "Flying Saucer" also.

If you ever find yourself in Ocean City Nj the Historical Society & City Museum has several large photo scrapbooks on her, as well as Chris's other seven-eight boats, in their library.
Along with these books there are many newspaper and magazine articles also.
Th Ocean City Sentinel Ledger Newspaper~online has many great old articles on her & Capt Chris also.

One thing I can tell you first hand~~~
The world famous "Flying Saucer" PT Speedboat ,as well as her owner/captain Chris Montagna ,were both beloved ledgends in their own time.

Every time I start talking about Ocean City NJ , no matter where in this country I may be, there is always someone who asks me~
"Is the Flying Saucer Speedboat still running out of Chris's Seafood Restaurant Dock at 9th street in Ocean City ?"
"Boy~ What a fantastic fun speedboat ride that was!"
" We rode on that great speedboat as a kid"

Sadly I have to tell them of her final & very sad fate.

I wish someone had saved her~

DonziJon
06-01-2011, 07:14 PM
[
There was a final MK IV version of this Packard V12 that was indeed 1800 horsepower.

INDEED: Can you provide a reference (maybe a page number) to a Mark IV version..? I have both the definitive Packard Books by Robert J. Neal and assume you have also. I can't find a MK IV. Can you enlighten.....:nilly: There was no 4M-2500 at 1800 hp during the war...or ever. 1500 HP was the max..very late in the war. DJ

PS: I have heard of the Flying Saucer...a RIDE BOAT. You don't suppose there was a bit of Hype in their advertising....???

silverghost
06-01-2011, 07:37 PM
DJ~
I saw a link on Packard PT Horsepower ratings just the other day on the web that mentioned this engine~
I will try to dig it up for you & post it.

You have to remember that this surplus PT boat & it's spare engines were NEW when Capt' Chris bought her, and three other surplus PT boats for $4000. each.
It was built at the very end of the war~~~
And thus never delivered to our Navy ?
Possibly the last MK IV engine varients never actually made it into actual US Navy service ?
This I do not know~

You will also note in post #18, the Sept. 1953 Popular Science article, that the 5400 horse-power figure was also mentioned on these. very same three "Flying Saucer" PT boat engines.

RightLurker
06-01-2011, 08:06 PM
There are some interesting pictures on this site:
http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/saunders-roe-mtb.php
I, too, saw a reference to a Mark IV, 1800 hp version of the 4M 2500. Darned if I can find it now, but I will. If I remember correctly, the site said the Mark IV didn't make it into any PT Boats produced during the war, but only into post-war boats. Of course, reading something on the internet doesn't make it true.

silverghost
06-01-2011, 09:04 PM
DJ & GUYS~
You challenged me on my engine horsepower facts~~~
AND~~~
The "Flying Saucer's" stated speed figures ?
AND
The fact that they in fact DID have ARMOR for light arms fire.

Here is my answer.
I not just pulling his stuff out of thin air~
It's OK~
We're all friends here!
&
We're ALL here to learn .

"Flying Saucer's" Engines
5M-2500
V-12
Larger Supercharger & Intercooled
Bigger Multiple carbs~
"M" ~ MARINE Liquid cooled
2500 cubic inches
Approx~ 1800-1850 HP

As is now still on Surviving PT-658

Here is a PT boat link that mentions this 5M-2500 /1800 horsepower PT boat engine~
There are also other links~
On other sites it is often listed as the Mk IV Varient.
Boats with the 5M-2500 were said to be able to run 50 Knots .

Hope these links help~

http://www.ww2hc.org/emailarchives/2011/pt658.htm
Also~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt_boat
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Torpedo_Boat_PT-658

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 09:56 AM
Still can't find any reference to Mk IVs. The first (5M-2500) engine was shipped in June 1944 for testing. By April 1945, only (4) 5M-2500s had been built. They were still referred to as 4M-2500, Type W50 and W51. The increased HP was achieved by increasing the gear ratio on the blower and adding a salt water cooled "aftercooler" between the blower and intake manifold.

The power requirements were 1500 HP @ 2500 RPM and 1800 HP @t 2800 RPM...(Emergency Power). During tests as much as 1950 HP was achieved. On May 9, 1945 the first production run of 250 units was authorized and was completed in early 1947.

PT-658 was a 78' Higgins. PT-728 is a 70' Vosper, and the pictures of the boat being hauled out of the water clearly show TWIN screws. There was no mention of what power the boat has. The 78' Higgins and 80' ELCO boats were by far the most common PT boats in the war.

With all the conlicting stories being tossed about, it's hard to tell what "Facts" are the real "Facts". :bonk: DJ.

silverghost
06-02-2011, 03:07 PM
Donzi Jon~

The Flyng Saucer was ideed Tripple Screw with three engines.
I had been down in the engine room many times; both at his dock , and at the storage boatyard.
I can assure you the Saucer had three engines.

Chris's other smaller speedboat, the Flying Pony, had Packard PT boat engines.
After being retired the Flying Pony lay forgotten in the boatyard weeds for many years.
It was sometime later trucked out of there and sadly later holed on a reef or sandbar & sunk in Florida.

Also as you may remember from above in this thread the Coast Guard was trying to force Captain Chris to remove the Flying Saucer's center third engine~

Was this ever done ?
I do not know~

But it NEVER was used that way as a thrill ride boat.
Capt Chris flatly refused to run the Flying Saucer as a thrill ride boat with only two engines and ordered her side-lined & eventually scrapped.

Somewhere along the line this could be where the confusion might be.

Captain Chris always insisted that the three engines in his Flying Saucer produced a total of 5400 horsepower.

If you have any photos of her in your PT boat books please post them; or email them to me for posting.
There seem to be very few photos of her existing out there.

Thank's

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 03:24 PM
There are some interesting pictures on this site:
http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/saunders-roe-mtb.php
I, too, saw a reference to a Mark IV, 1800 hp version of the 4M 2500. Darned if I can find it now, but I will. If I remember correctly, the site said the Mark IV didn't make it into any PT Boats produced during the war, but only into post-war boats. Of course, reading something on the internet doesn't make it true.

Interesting article. There was some discussion about Packard-Merlin engines being used in some PT boats which was discounted.

To clarify Packard-Merlin: Rolls Royce actually licensed Packard to build the Rolls Royce Merlin aircraft engine in the US during the war, which was used in the British Spitfire and P-51 Mustang fighters. The 4M-2500 Packard ("M" for marine) was 2500 CI. The Merlins were 1650 CI. Not the same engine at all. :) DJ

silverghost
06-02-2011, 03:50 PM
From my reading in the last week there was indeed SAID to be a least ONE test prototype PT boat with Rolls~Royce Merlin engines.
The Rolls~Royce Merlin never made it into any other regular production PT boats however.
We may not be able to trust
everything we read on the internet.
Folks often confuse the Packard , Allison, & Rolls~Royce Merlin & Griffon, & Meteor tank V-12 engines.

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 06:34 PM
I alluded to this in a previous post. If you are interested in Packard: Automobiles, Aircraft engines and Marine engines....I recommend "Packards At Speed"..and "Master Motor Builders" by Robert J. Neal. They comprise about 750 pages in total of PACKARD intense detail. I think they were about $65 each a few years ago. There is massive text and comparable pictures. If you are really interested..this will not Disappoint.

If you have a short attention span OR are bored quickly..don't waste your money. :nilly: DJ

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 06:42 PM
The Rolls Royce Merlin was designed to operate in a fighter aircraft at various altitudes up to around 35,000 feet.

The Packard 4M-2500 Marine engine used in the PTs was always used at Sea Level...Just sayin. :bonk: DJ

silverghost
06-02-2011, 06:56 PM
Donzijon~
I will indeed look for~
And buy that Packard book!
I am NOT a Packard engine expert by any means~
Always willing to learn more.
Thank's

Re: Flying Saucer's Tripple Engines~

As additional proof that the Flying Saucer Speedboat did in fact have THREE V-12 Packard PT boat engines~

Blow-up & enlarge her cockpit's photos posted above on this thread your computer.

If you look closely at the photos of the Flying Saucer's cockpit & Helm area above . & on the other links posted. you can clearly see tripple sets of engine gauges along with~

Three transmission shift levers,
Also three throttle levers
&
Three carb fuel mixture control levers
&
Three ignition spark advance/retard levers
&
Three emergancy fuel cut-off valve pull-out control knobs.

I also as mentioned that I in fact briefly operated all three throttles & the steering wheel helm while Capt. Chris was standing closely next to me , keeping a watchful eye on me, as a kid.
It was a thrill of a lifetime as a "water rat kid" who loved the Flying Saucer to actually be able to "drive" the Flying Saucer at speed~
If but for only for fifteen min. or so .
What a thrill indeed.
I will never forget that opportunity that our old friend Captain Chis once gave me.
He was quite a great guy indeed !

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 07:06 PM
Folks often confuse the Packard , Allison, & Rolls~Royce Merlin & Griffon, & Meteor tank V-12 engines.

Overload: I'm not confused....but then again very few are interested in this level of detail. Allison V-1710 engines were used in the P-38 Lightning (Pair) very sucessfully, and much less succesfully in the early Mustangs. The British rejected them. Rolls Royce Merlin..Fighters. Rolls Royce Griffon, bombers. Rollls Royce Meteors, British tank engines.

As stated before, our own P-51 Mustang adopted the Packard-Rolls Royce Merlin.

BTW: While Packard was building Merlins under license, Packard was making little improvements...much to Rolls Royce's ...well they didn't like our tampering with their design. :bonk: DJ

silverghost
06-02-2011, 07:16 PM
Donzijon~
I did not mean that YOU were in any way confused about these engines.
There IS quite a bit of confusion about these engines all over the internet however.

I know all these Rolls~Royce engines very well indeed.
In Fact~
I am a member of the Rolls~Royce Owner's Club.
&
R~R Phantom I Society
& also
R~R Silver Ghost Association

In Fact~
I own two (1924 & 1926)
Springfield Mass.USA built Silver Ghosts
&
A 1927 Springfield Mass. USA built Rolls~Royce Phantom I

DonziJon
06-02-2011, 07:21 PM
Donzijon~
And buy that Packard book! !

There are TWO Books.

I am impresed and a little envious that you were able to see the "Flying Saucer" first hand. I have a picture of "Flying Pony" in one of my Robert Speltz..Real Runabouts books. There were no specifics about engines.

With the Ride Boats it was always.... It's a PT BOAT. DJ

silverghost
06-02-2011, 07:56 PM
Donzijon~

Is there any mention of builder, size and any specs on the Flying Pony in the late Robert Speltz book ?
I do not have that series of "Real Runabouts" books.

If you can scan a photo from that book on the "Flying Pony" & post it here ~~~that would be great.

There seems to be nothing on the web at all about Chris's Flying Pony Speedboat today.

silverghost
06-02-2011, 08:04 PM
At one time Capt. Chris Montagna had an entire storage garage full of NEW surplus Packard PT boat engines in the 50s & 60s. They were all on wooden shipping skids..
He also had various new & used spare parts.
By the time the early 70s arrived he had used up his very last two NEW engines repowering the Flying Saucer one very last time.
He had at that time also put the word out that he was indeed looking for more spare surplus engines.
He was offering a hefty reward to anyone who knew the where-abouts of NEW surplus Packard PT boat engines.
The center older engine developed a fuel leak that eventually resulted in a violent explosion & resulting fire that is widely reported in the Ocean City Sentinel Ledger Newspaper online.
This explosion was what put the Coast Guard Safety Inspectors on his back to remove all the gasoline engines from the Flying Saucer.
This spelled the beginning of the end for her~~~
And For Captain Chris Montagna himself.
A Very sad ending indeed~

The Miss Atlantic City Speedboats at Captain Starns in Atlantic City NJ were also forced to also swap-out
their high-power gasoline engines for deemed safer diesel engines.
The Miss Atlantic City speedboats owned & run by Captain Clarence Starn in the north inlet area of Atlantic City Nj were also popular large purpose-built ride speedboats.
Do a web seach for them also~
They ran until 1976 if my memory serves me correctly ?
They too were great fast ride speedboats ~
They ran for decades~
But could never be compared to the world famous Flying Saucer in Ocean City NJ in size speed or the total " Thrill & Fun Factor."

silverghost
06-02-2011, 09:12 PM
The Flying Saucer actually had three major accidents in it's 25+/- year history.

The first happened while going at speed in the ocean surf just off of the 30th street beach front Ocean City Nj.
She was riding at speed just past the breaking ocean wave rollers.
The Flying Saucer struck a telephone pole sized floating log and put a 14 inch hole in her double 1" thickness mahogany bow bottom hull planking.
She immediately began to ship-in large amounts of seawater.
Chris throttled her down and immediately ran her right up on the beach just past some ocean swimmers & beach goers.
I saw the large PT boat sitting on the beach in the surf-line later that afternoon.
Several days later a make-shift patch was placed on her hull while still on the beach & her stern still in the wave breaking surf and she was towed back off the beach by two ocean going tugs.
She was then towed to the boatyard where she was pulled out of the water, by marine railway, and a proper double layer mahogany plank repair was made.
She was back in business a week later giving speedboat thrill rides once again.

On another occasion a small wooden rowboat cut across her bow and was cut in two and sunk in the back bay.
Capt Chris was going very slow and had the right-of-way.
It was impossible for him to stop her in time.
There was a Coast Guard hearing and Capt Chris was found to be not at fault.
He indeed had the marine Right-Of-Way.
The wooden boat driver/ clammer was drunk and was 76 years old.
He suffered only a few cracked ribs . He was very lucky.

The final accident happened while Capt Chris was going slow in the back bay near the Ocean City Yacht Club.
He had just pulled the giant Flying Saucer speedboat from her slip & had just exited under the 9th street causeway bridge.
A sudden violent explosion blew her aft hatches , air fin rudders, and most of her aft engine compartment deck, that can be seen earlier in the old color photo posted earlier in his thread , off of her aft stern end.
Chris turned her toward the Ocean City NJ Yacht Club's docks and ordered everyone to abandon ship.
The fireball was said to be three stories tall with a small mushroom cloud.
It turns out a gasoline leak on her older center engine had been ignited when an automatic bilge pump turned-on.
It was said that approx ten gallons of fuel were in her bilge at the time of this explosion along with much fuel/air vapor..
The Flying Saucer had a Walter Kiddie CO2 Fire fighting system down below and Captain Chris immediately pulled all four CO2 systems trip trigger handles to put out any remaining fire & smoking.
Wooden debris was all over the water surface.
She was now dead in the water. People were jumping of the boat~

What a mess.
Dad and our entire family heard this explosion, and rescue sirens, on the small island but did not find-out what happened until the very next day.
It was all over the local TV news broadcasts.
A week later Dad & I went to the boatyard to inspect the damaged Flying Saucer.
As I stated before the entire aft engine deck and engine room hatch areas were blown-off the Flying Saucer.
In addition to this the aft 1/4 of the hull had streched and swelled & ballooned the side planking from the extreme explosion pressure so that there were now 1/4" air slits between each and every aft hull-side plank.
She was repaired and back in action the very next Summer season year after extensive repairs that at that this time period cost approx $25 thousand dollars in early 1970s money.
There was a big coast Guard Investigation that eventually led to a change in Coast Guard rules for multi- passenger carrying boats with gasoline powered engines.
Now the Coast Guard forced ride boats to switch to deemed safer diesel power.
The future of the Flying Saucer & similar Gasoline powered speedboat ride boats was now sadly numbered.

silverghost
06-02-2011, 10:15 PM
Two of the Flying Saucer's Packard PT boat engines are now in maritime museums.
The third engine is now in the hands of a private mahogany speedboat collector ; and it is said he is in fact building a new mahogany runabout reproduction speedboat he plans on using this giant V-12 marine engine in.
The big gold, yellow, & brown Chris's Restaurant "hull Flying Wing" signs which are 3/4" marine plywood that were screwed onto her hull sides, and not painted-on, are said to still exist in Ocean City NJ today.
One is said to be in private hands.
The other is in custody of a historical museum~~~I am now told ?
There are a few of the aft giant air inlet scupper deck vent scoops in private hands & in the very same museum.
The Yank Boatyard has/ or once had some of her old deck fittngs & underwater running hardware.
A private collector has an engine room instruction sign that is printed in Russian on one side & English on the other... This PT boat was slated to go to Russia under the war "Lend-Lease Program" but as the war ended as it was being finished it was never delivered but instead sold to Capt Chris , along wih three other Surplus PTs for $4000. each.
I also know the wherabouts of the old marine chromed electric powered streamlined pod-shaped Sparton /Sparks Worthington front deck siren.
And~ I'm not telling anyone where it is now !

The Ocean City Historical Museum at the Ocean City Library & Community Center has several photo and newspaper scrap books that Captain Chris Montagna donated in the late 1970s which contain a wealth of information on all of hs boats, restaurant, and especially the Flying Saucer & Flying Pony.
This book is under lock & key and you must ask to personally see it & sign for it.

The rest of the Flying Saucer is just a very old memory to all who once rode on her
Dad & I easily rode on her 50 or more times~
We rode the smaller Flying Pony about 20 times .
All from the mid 1950s-to the early 1970s.
I only wish I had a "Time-Machine" to take just one more ride on the Flying Saucer with my now late Father and our late great friend Captain Chris Montagna.
May they all Rest in Peace.

RightLurker
06-03-2011, 10:11 AM
I think the character of Chris Montagna, young rum-runner, should be written into Boardwalk Empire.

DonziJon
06-03-2011, 10:53 AM
I had another look at Speltz Real Runabouts Vol II and Vol V. There is reference in both books about Flying Pony. Either there were TWO different Flying Ponys or Speltz is confused.

One is described in Vol V, as a "converted Tri-Engine PT Boat" capable of carrying 125 passengers at 90 MPH. The picture accompaning the text is a head on view, looking aft, taken in a slip, with a full load of passengers about to get underway. I enlarged the picture and counted over 50 people in the first 4 rows alone, so don't doubt there were probably over 100 passengers aboard.

The second Flying Pony was described in Vol II as 45' long, having a single 1400 HP Packard and capable of carrying 57 passengers. This boat clearly is not as big as the other boat and has a "full width" windshield in the conventional location, with the driver on the Left side..Vs a seperate drivers cockpit in the center up foreward.

EDIT: The pictures in the book were very poor quality. :(

RightLurker
06-03-2011, 11:34 AM
The black boat on the left is the Flying Pony. The boat on the right is the Flying Saucer. I don't know who built the Flying Pony or what or how many engines it had.

sand dollar
06-03-2011, 11:40 AM
Had 1 v-12 like the saucer

DonziJon
06-03-2011, 12:08 PM
Here's something to think about. In 1932, Gar Wood drove his 38' Miss America X to a record 124+ MPH. This boat had (4) Packard 1M-2500, making 1600 HP each.

How likely is it that Flying Saucer which was likely 78' long, with (3) 4M-2500 Packards making lets say 1600 HP each...would go 90 MPH with 125 fat people aboard..? :bonk:

The weight of solid bench seats, with steel supports, plus the weight of 125 people would likely not save any weight over the plywood deckhouse that was removed...:nilly: DJ

PS: It's all fun to think about though. :yes:

sand dollar
06-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Please see attached specks. Chris used to cruise at 70 .

sand dollar
06-03-2011, 12:16 PM
sure miss her.

Visit my web on Flickr.

RightLurker
06-03-2011, 12:59 PM
I don't think anyone really believes the Flying Saucer went 90 miles an hour - do they? That was just Chris Montagna's salesmanship/hype, I'm certain. I talked to John Yank III in the 1990s (as mentioned previously), and I recall that he told me that without passengers and on a calm see, it would do about 60, but that with passengers aboard they drove the boat at about 30 to 35. That's just my recollection, which could be faulty, and I don't remember if he speaking in terms of knots or miles per hour.

And that's all beside the point, in my view. It doesn't really matter how fast it went, or how much horsepower the engines produced. It was really big, plenty fast enough, and very loud (in a pleasing sort of way). Above all, it was cool. What else matters? Sure fun to talk about, though. And I wish there were more pictures, to say nothing of movies.

DonziJon
06-03-2011, 01:51 PM
More story and pictures on PT-728.

http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-11/wl86-pt728.html

EDIT: Even this website can't get it right..Packard/Merlins..Yeh Yeh.....

silverghost
06-03-2011, 05:21 PM
DJ~
Thank's for posting the above PT 728 link.
The Flying Saucer did NOT have twin transom mounted rudders.
It had three under- through-hull high speed balanced rudders.
A ride on the PT 728 looks like a sunday cruise ride on "the good Ship Lollypop" compared to the "Thrill-Ride" on the high-power muscleboat that once was the Flying Saucer.
We are talking of comparing apples & water-mellons here.~
From the photos the "Restored" PT 728 ~~It puts out no wake & spray at all compared to Chris's old Flying Saucer.
When at speed the Saucer would throw out a 55 foot rooster tail, along with a heavy spray cloud from it's three propeller screws that was easily four times as high as it's own deck.
By way of comparison~
Think of a Berkeley water-jet drive with it's large water spray tail at speed .
now~ scale that up to a boat the size of the Saucer with THREE props.
Capt Chris used to turn the Flying Saucer sharply into his own wake and the result on his boat & passengers was like being sprayed by four hoses~~ each 4 inch high-pressure fire hoses.
If the ride on the Saucer was as whimpy & tame as the wake appears to be on the now twin tame diesel powered PT 728 NOBODY would be talking about her today 35-55 years later.
In order to get a better , more accurate idea, of the Flying Saucer's speed & wake + spray cloud~
Rent the PT boat movies
PT 109
&
They Were Expendable.

Those movie PT boats at fighting weight were/are also somewhat quite tame as compared to the stripped-down & souped-up Flying Saucer's ride speed & wake + spray.

You would really have to see it first hand ,
or actually experience a "Thrill Ride" first hand to really fully appreciate & really believe the power & speed of the Flying Saucer.

The "Restored" PT 728 cannot EVER be compared to Captain Chris's Flying Saucer

My late Dad has some old 8MM home movies of the Flying Saucer runnng just off the beach in Ocean City NJ around home here somewhere~
I guess I will have to get those 8MM color film movies converted to digital media ?

silverghost
06-03-2011, 06:46 PM
Several times I had our NEW Donzi X-18 Berkeley-jet/ 'Olds 455 rated at 390 horsepower running flat out offshore in the very calm ocean next to the Flying Saucer which was running with a full passenger load.
I was alone in my NEW Donzi X-18 running at a safe distance along abaft her port side.
Now~ I was running full flat-out flank speed.
Capt. Chris would just smile & wave Bye-Bye and then crank those big old superharged Packard PT boat engines up and just blow by me leaving me alone in his giant wake spray .
He got a big charge out of beating other "so-called" fast speedboats.
He NEVER EVER lost an ocean race .
NEVER !
I had to be careful that I did not get swamped while I was running flat out near the Flying Saucer !
& Never~~~ EVER did you want to get into her stern prop's wash !

This should give everyone some idea of how really fast the Flying Saucer could actually go.

DonziJon
06-03-2011, 06:48 PM
THRILL.....BEAUTY... is in the eye of the beholder. :yes:

The PT Boat crews were trained right down the road from me at Melville, RI. We had our own PT Restoration (80' ELCO) at the marina (Melville) where I kept my boat at that time. (Mid 80s) At that time the "word" was you could buy a 4M-2500 Packard ..surplus for $5K.

PT-617. They did a nice job. The boat is now under cover at the Fall River (MA) Marine Museum..with the battleship Massachusetts..and others.

I had full access during the restoration at Melville. When I went to the Marine Museum just last year for a NAVY Retirement Ceremony..I was able to see PT-617. ...Full Access is NOT what you get as a tourist. NO Access. You get to walk around the boat on a scaffold. There are a couple of little "windows" cut into the side of the boat so you can look inside. WTF..?? :( DJ

DonziJon
06-03-2011, 06:57 PM
Several times I had our NEW Donzi X-18 Berkeley-jet/ 'Olds 455 rated at 390 horsepower running flat out offshore in the very calm ocean next to the Flying Saucer which was running with a full passenger load.
I was alone in my NEW Donzi X-18 running a a safe distance along her port side.
Now~ I was running full flat-out flank speed.
Capt. Chris would just smile & wave Bye-Bye and then crank those big old superharged Packard PT boat engines up and just blow by me leaving me alone in his wake .
He got a big charge out of beating other "so-called" fast speedboats.
He NEVER lost an ocean race .
NEVER !
I had to be careful that I did not get swamped while I was running flat out near the Flying Saucer !
& Never~~~ EVER did you want to get into her prop's wash !

This should give everyone some idea of how really fast the Flying Saucer could actually go.


With ALL due F-in respect..BULL****..:bonk: In my estimation you just blew your credibilty. DJ

silverghost
06-03-2011, 07:03 PM
With ALL due F-IN respect..BULL****..:bonk: DJ

DJ~~~
Don't believe me ?
OK~~~
Don't take MY word for this TRUE fact~~~

Just let's see what the other thread posters who actually saw & actually rode on the Flying Saucer have to say here about her true speed.

Two of her three engines were NEW at this time.
Later that very same summer the older center engine developed that gasoline fuel leak that resulted in that big tragic explosion in front of the Ocean City NJ Yacht Club.
.
You had to have ACTUALLY SEEN the Flying Saucer in action first hand in person to be a true believer~

You cannot get this actual performance information from books or PT boat museums.

The Flying Saucer was far from being in stock military PT fighting condition & configuration.
She was stripped-down, lightened, and her stern altered by world famous speedboat racer Gar Wood & his various Miss America race boat's designer for flat out raw speed.

I never said she would do 90 MPH~
But she sure did go over 60+ MPH.

gcarter
06-03-2011, 08:28 PM
A couple of things guys...
There's currently two so called "NEW" Packard M series engines for sale on eBay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PAIR-V-12-PACKARD-PT-BOAT-ENGINES-1944-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2eb4d3ee78QQitemZ20060 2283640QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear
It's obvious to me the seller doesn't know a lot about the engines.
The reference to the 4M-2500 engines (12,700 built) is on page 282 of Neals second book.
Did you know there's a third book? It's everything you never wanted to know about the Liberty.
As far as HP ratings go, I believe they could be anything you wanted them to be, depending on how long you wanted them to last.
As far as speed goes, I have biographies of both Hubert Scott- Payne of the British Power Boat Company and Peter DuCaine of Vosper Ltd. These two companies did all the heavy lifting on PT boat design and construction (MGB's, as the Brits called them) in the years running up to the start of the war. They obviously had an earlier start than we did, maybe three years earlier.
Vosper started out w/Issota-Fraschini engines, but their supply dried up when the Italians went w/Hitler. There were no other engines available. Payne's British Power Boat Company used a bunch of Meadows 100 HP marinized auto engines and they were OK as long as the boats weren't longer than 40'.
Scott-Payne was the person that approached Packard about resuming production of engines that hadn't been built since the '20's. In fact, they'd never been in production really. Packard DIDN'T want to build more. I understand Packard arranged for Miss america's engines to be available for testing in one of Scott-Payne's hulls.
Packard still wouldnn't play until they got an order from the US Navy. The Navy wasn't interested, there was a depression going on, and as far as the Navy was concerned, there was no war. The M-2500 series of engines really weren't up to date in any way. The original development was started in about 1918 as a poorly conceived aircraft engine. Not a marine engine. Any way, eventually the Navy gave Packard an order and the rest is history.
Back to ratings, they were based on 100+ octane aircraft fuel, anything less and you had a sub 1000 HP engine. Period.
Back to Vosper and British power Boat Co, their hulls, particularly British Power Boat, was the guide for the Elco 80' boats, which built the most. They wouldn't do 50 Knots. Nor did they need to in the North Atlantic or the North Sea. The German S boats were the only boats in WW-II that could do 40 knots in rough water.

silverghost
06-04-2011, 04:43 PM
The movie~
PT 109 is now on TCM Turner Classic Movies 5;30 PM Sat June 4th.
Enjoy~

gcarter
06-04-2011, 06:03 PM
The movie~
PT 109 is now on TCM Turner Classic Movies 5;30 PM Sat June 4th.
Enjoy~

Yep, I'm watching it.

DonziJon
06-04-2011, 07:57 PM
Several times I had our NEW Donzi X-18 Berkeley-jet/ 'Olds 455 rated at 390 horsepower running flat out offshore in the very calm ocean next to the Flying Saucer which was running with a full passenger load.
.

OK: Here's the problem I have with your story...Why would anyone.... driving a Porsche 911 Carrera,.......... ie: (390HP Donzi X18 Berkley Jet)....BRAG.. about getting Waxed by a stinkin Metro Bus full of fat tourists..??... In FLAT seas.. .... DJ

DonziJon
06-04-2011, 08:08 PM
DJ~~~
Don't believe me ?
.

NOPE :nilly: DJ

silverghost
06-04-2011, 09:53 PM
DJ~
In the end you're going to believe exactly what YOU want to believe~~~

Let's see if others, who actually saw & rode on the Flying Saucer, weigh-in here~
This thread has had over 1200 views already to date.
A few have aleady weighed-in earlier~
It will be very interesting to see what they have to say about your "stinkin Metro Bus" comment about Chris's Flying Saucer.

I'd be betting that they back me up.

You just had to be there at this period in time, & actually See It in action First Hand, & Actually Ride on the Flying Saucer, to become a true believer.

It appeared in Popular Science & Popular Mechanics, as well as the Guinness Book of Records, in it's day for a real true reason~
The editors of those publications would not have put some ordinary "Bus" tourist ride boat in their publications.

Believe what you will ?
I will never change your already closed mind .

DonziJon
06-05-2011, 03:16 PM
My apology's silverghost. I totally misjudged what your response would be to my tongue in cheek sense of humor. :yes: Sometimes this happens. :bonk: Cheers. DJ

sand dollar
06-08-2011, 03:42 PM
I found some 8mm film in my closet that is 45 years old. I sent it to have converted to cd. Many feet taken of the saucer. I can't wait to see and re-live those great rides. I can remember filming the wake and beach as we were doing 70!!

Ghost
06-08-2011, 03:50 PM
I found some 8mm film in my closet that is 45 years old. I sent it to have converted to cd. Many feet taken of the saucer. I can't wait to see and re-live those great rides. I can remember filming the wake and beach as we were doing 70!!

COOL! (Can you say "YouTube?" :) )

sand dollar
06-08-2011, 03:58 PM
never tried you tube. there is 200 feet of film, some home movie stuff. I am a Flying Saucer nut, there are lots of pictures. Have a picture of Chris changing a prop. I'll post when I get it back, they said a few weeks.Should be able to e-mail.

RightLurker
06-08-2011, 06:03 PM
This I gotta see.

silverghost
06-08-2011, 06:25 PM
Sand Dollar~

I also look foreward to seeing your movie clip.
I will have to dig-out my late Father's old 8MM Ocean City movies.
I know there s a 30 second clip of The Flying Saucer running at speed from the 8-9th street & Music Pier area to the 14th street fishing pier. The clip was shot by my Dad from the beach.

If you search Google Images~ There is a fellow who built a great, and very accurate, scale model of the Flying Saucer.
It is not an off-the-shelf plastic kit~~~but one that he has altered to look like the Flying Saucer.
It is not 100% accurate ~
But it is very very close based on my first hand memory of the Flying Saucer.
He has a photo album of his large scale model posted.

Here is the link of Flying Saucer scale model photos.
Enjoy !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28714084@N03/

sand dollar
06-20-2011, 01:13 PM
I picked up my movie dvd from old 8mm film. For being 44 year old film didn't turn out bad. There are shots of the Saucer and Pony. I copied the dvd into a new folder but some of the files are zipped. Trying to figure how to email dvd. There are 54 libraries of pictures. Any suggestions, as I would like to share these wonderful moments with Chris

Walt. H.
06-20-2011, 01:29 PM
Possibly up loading it to You Tube would most likely be the easiest way then all you would have to do is post the link to it.
Of course that is if your video doesn't contain any personal footage you would rather not want strangers to see, being that posting on You Tube it's available to the entire world.

sand dollar
06-20-2011, 02:26 PM
I was able to get the file so I can send as e-mail. My email address is
kstruthers1@yahoo.com
send me an email requesting I send to you. Please enter Flying Saucer in title block

Walt. H.
06-20-2011, 05:10 PM
E-mail sent,
Thank you for making it available!
Walt

sand dollar
06-23-2011, 09:39 AM
I uploaded a 2 minuite movie clip of the Flying Saucer to my Facebook. If you are on Facebook ask to be a friend.

Ken Struthers