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Buddyc
05-10-2011, 10:16 PM
I plan on running hydraulic steering and power. With the long list of things I need, I wont have the coin to run external rams. What internal setup do you guys recommend? I have no idea, but what I do know is that I will need one soon,
Thanks in advance guys

LKSD
05-11-2011, 09:47 AM
There are some internal hydraulic add on kits that could work with that set up. We have done them in the past. They are better than the old cable steering, but not quite as indepth or as beneficial as a full external kit. However if you are not going to be going really fast, or putting a very large amount of hp in the boat, it is a good upgrade.. :)

Probably the least costly one that performs rather well would be the sea star units. There are a few different options & helms available for those kits.. If you want me to look into if for you shoot me an PM or email.. :)

Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

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18intheworks
08-09-2012, 08:35 PM
This site is so awesome - I learn something every time I get on here. Have a classic 18 with a 325 hp engine, just bought an Alpha SS (listed on this site) and now wondering what steering to go with. Having read all the different threads it appears 70+ MPH is where folks start saying external is the way to go - but this thread makes me wonder about an internal hydraulic power steering set-up. If I can find a good used external system I will go that route, but can't afford the cash to buy one of those new. With what I have, can I get away with an internal system? I'm thinking I may be able to go over 70 mph and would hate to install one system, only to have to change to another...

Again, this site is fantastic thanks to all the smart folks willing to type!!

Cheers,
Tom

MOP
08-10-2012, 07:31 AM
IMO a Brazil valve/external ram setup is a better way to go, trying to stabilize the drive using the tiller just don't work. With a Brazil valve setup you will have the coin to use an external ram, another plus is the feel of the steering stays stock. With hydraulic helm you work twice as hard around the docks, I am sure you have noticed after completion of full hydraulic first comment handling around the docks suck!

18intheworks
08-10-2012, 01:47 PM
Just spoke to Jamie briefly and he agreed that might be the best way to go. I had never heard of such a set-up - so thanks very much for suggesting it. So this would not require a power steering pump and my wife could drive it without groaning at me? I have nothing for steering at the moment, so would have to pick up a cable helm but that wouldn't seem very hard has most folks are upgrading from these... More to ponder... Thanks again, Tom

maddad
08-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Just spoke to Jamie briefly and he agreed that might be the best way to go. I had never heard of such a set-up - so thanks very much for suggesting it. So this would not require a power steering pump and my wife could drive it without groaning at me? I have nothing for steering at the moment, so would have to pick up a cable helm but that wouldn't seem very hard has most folks are upgrading from these... More to ponder... Thanks again, Tom

I think you misunderstood something here. The system MOP wrote about would need a power steering pump, but would use a cable type helm to activate the valve and external hydraulic cylinders.

18intheworks
08-10-2012, 03:15 PM
Copy - that makes more sense. It seems like this might be the best way to go then. Easy to turn, better control at high speeds, less stress on the gimbal, and won't cost me an arm and a leg...

18intheworks
08-10-2012, 04:02 PM
So if I am going to go external steering with a single ram (and that's the way you have all convinced me I should be leaning), then with my lower budget it seems I have two ways to go according to what I have read on all the posts:

1) Cable with brazil valve
- less effort as it is power steering
- Good used helm would be fairly cheap I would expect (there is a Big-T for sale on this site)
- Fewer turns lock-to-lock
- better 'stock' feel
- have to purchase pump and valve and hoses

2) Hydraulic helm with ram
- Helm would be more expensive as likely I will have to buy new
- More turns lock-to-lock
- less positive feel

I'm thinking the cost would be about the same due to the higher cost of the helm on one hand, and the the pump and valve on the other hand. I have to purchase a ram and brackets either way.
So if anyone has experience/advice with either and wants to chime in, I am all ears!

Thanks,
Tom

LKSD
08-11-2012, 02:20 PM
Yes, it would need a ps pump... :)

MOP
08-11-2012, 08:50 PM
Just about everything can be aquired off Ebay some darn cheap.

thescooter
08-12-2012, 07:48 PM
What about this?
the only spec item i question is 24 volt motor.
i am think on using this on my bertram baron

http://www.teleflexmarine.com/products/hydraulic-new/inboard-power-steering/dc/


http://atlaswoodproducts.me/2008/03/24/this-is-my1970-bertram-baron-28-twin-holman-moody-fords-302s-with-351-heads-one-of-aprx-10-left-of-only-50-built-click-on-pics-to-enlarge-them/

MOP
08-12-2012, 09:09 PM
Scooter with that system you still have all the inherent gimble housing issues, it is far better to use external giving the drive the support it needs.

Phil

VetteLT193
08-13-2012, 12:08 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]So if I am going to go external steering with a single ram (and that's the way you have all convinced me I should be leaning), then with my lower budget it seems I have two ways to go according to what I have read on all the posts:

1) Cable with brazil valve
- less effort as it is power steering
- Good used helm would be fairly cheap I would expect (there is a Big-T for sale on this site)
- Fewer turns lock-to-lock
- better 'stock' feel
- have to purchase pump and valve and hoses

2) Hydraulic helm with ram
- Helm would be more expensive as likely I will have to buy new
- More turns lock-to-lock
- less positive feel

I'm thinking the cost would be about the same due to the higher cost of the helm on one hand, and the the pump and valve on the other hand. I have to purchase a ram and brackets either way.
So if anyone has experience/advice with either and wants to chime in, I am all ears!

Thanks,
Tom[/QUOTE]

Manual hydraulic will be tough to steer, however it should be rock solid in terms of any input into the wheel will turn the drive.

With the other system with the pump and cable helm (many call it a 'half system') you will have a bit of play in the wheel from side to side but the drive will be solid. If you are going to be running the boat at full throttle a LOT and want to be able to steer through chine walk the full system will be better (ideally, WITH a PS pump because even with the pump they are kinda tough).

If you plan on using the boat all around I'd go with the half system... it will be easy to upgrade to a full system from a half system down the road anyway.

gcarter
08-13-2012, 01:00 PM
There is an inheirant problem w/the SeaStar system on a performance boat in that the electrically powered pump output is less than 2 cu. in. per revolution.
In other words, you would be cranking the wheel very quickly to try to navigate in close quarters around docks, etc.
It's a bad choice for these boats unless the steering cylinder is of very small displacement.
Also, what Phil said.

Ralph Savarese
08-22-2012, 09:17 AM
I have to disagree External is by far the best way to go. Get rid of all that stress on the helmet and fork steer it directly with no play and effort. As far as around docks. I dont know where that came from. I have now problem. maybe the most 3.5 lock to lock If you can find 2 k 5s used that is the biggest expence. Jonny Whale found two used ones. $20 seal kits to rebuild not a big deal. If they are leaking Buy them as long as the piston shaft is not damaged.

Ralph Savarese
08-22-2012, 09:21 AM
Look at my Thread
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?67430-Volvo-External-Hydraulic-Steering-Complete/page2

MOP
08-22-2012, 10:28 AM
Another good feature of the Brazil valve setups is if you have a hydraulic malfunction you can still get home without a tow! You still have steering though non power, with full hydraulic you are screwed.

Ralph Savarese
08-22-2012, 11:51 AM
What happens when you break a cable or helmet? (Left turn Clyde at 70!) a hydraulic system will slowly bleed to one side allowing you to slow down. You do still have steering without the engine running just a little more difficult so you can get home if pump or pressure hose fails you have steering I have tried it with the high pressure hose disconnected. Open helm allows you to swap fluid from side to side through helm without ps pressure

MOP
08-22-2012, 01:10 PM
Ralph if you read my post more carefully I said with full hydraulic, if a line, fitting or ram fails you have -0- steering. With the Brazil you do have steering as the cable still functions.

Phil

roadtrip se
08-22-2012, 05:08 PM
And I am going to back Ralph up here...

-The internal stuff, like Seastar, offers no discernible control or handling enhancements. I had it on our Scorpion 18 and I have it now on my Formula. Both boats might as well have cable steering, as the benefit is negligible, in the way the boat feels and handles. I would suspect that the safety aspect follows suit,as there really isn't anything in a failure to keep the drive from flopping around.

-Half System. Something is better than nothing, no doubt, but a cable is still the weak link in a system like this, and chances are it will fail, before a full hydraulic to the helm system will. And cables have flex inherently in the system, so you still have movement at the wheel, which is hardly confidence inspring. I have driven several boats with this system, and the feeling is more or less like driving a car with no road feedback at the wheel. That cable will get worked in rough water for sure.

-Full System. If you need it, you need it. Full hydraulic systems rarely fail, provide excellent feedback, and the dock manners concerns are way over-blown. Best feedback, most control, and most safety. And there are great systems out there like Zieger that won't break the bank. I would save up for this, or piece a full system together, versus going part of the way. One angle to save a buck or two, is to go with a single ram on the transom.

Ralph Savarese
08-22-2012, 06:34 PM
Well said I agree) You will have 0 steering only if you have a total left or right line or piston blow out the chances of that happening i feel are much rarer than a cable or mechanical failer. My bigest fear with torgue steer . Now I have no feed back and just a total comfort to drive.

DickB
08-30-2012, 05:56 PM
Maybe I am missing something here, and I'm not arguing the benefits of full hydraulic, but I swapped out the cable on my factory power-assisted steering setup for a SeaStar internal hydraulic and have been pleased with the improvement. http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?64886-Internal-hydraulic-steering-project. The advantages that I see are reduced or eliminated steering play, and with the check valves in the helm there is no torque feedback to pull the wheel out of your hands.

Ralph Savarese
08-30-2012, 06:41 PM
Are we dealing Merc. or Volvo If Volvo no doubt External the way to go . Between myself having external and Maddad we have compaired the differences and way better with external because you eliminate the steering fork and Helmet. Volvo only.

MOP
08-31-2012, 11:10 AM
It is a Volvo setup which as we all know "must" use external, this guy is not running big power and is on a budget so a half system should do well for him. Don't forget Rootsy's 16 ran in the mid 80's with a half system. We can go back and forth between full or half sytem all day, IMO many would be far happier knowing that if there is a hydraulic failure of any type they can still drive home with w half system. You will not have power steering, but even if you are 50 miles from home you will get there unassisted. With a full system failure no matter how far from home you will need a tow.

Ralph Savarese
08-31-2012, 10:19 PM
Agreed I hope I took enough precautions to not ever have that type of failure

roadtrip se
09-01-2012, 10:37 AM
as I said. And Phil, I am not going to argue the facts on this issue, you are correct. But real world? Not so much.

I rode with Roots in the super-16. It was an awesome experience, even though I did get the wind knocked out of me by about three feet of water coming over the bow at one point. I'll never forget it. That day in rough seas, he fought with the steering wheel, dramatically, because of the cable flex in the system. But at that point, something was better than nothing for sure!

Secondly, I have never heard of somebody being towed due to a full system failure. There are earlier symptoms that crop up with these systems, that would merit investigation long before a full failure. Possible, yes, but with fewer moving parts than a half system, pretty unlikely in comparison.

johnnywhale
09-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Here's how secure ya feel with full hydraulic 1 - 1 1/2 chop on the GSB this morning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C1kukRn2PA&feature=youtu.be

osur866
09-03-2012, 12:33 AM
If anyone is looking to do one of these I have a helm and actuator that I took off my 18 that needs a new home, it is used but was in perfect working condition when I took it off, I went full dual ram external account I upped my HP a bit and increased my speed a 20 mph but the system worked well up to 70, if anyone interested PM me. Steve