PDA

View Full Version : Solas Titan Prop and Volvo 280 Drive



cimm
04-18-2011, 03:51 PM
I finally got my hands on a Solas Titan 21P Lh Prop for my Volvo 280 Drive. My question is how is this prop mounted to the shaft? Is the line cutter installed? It appears that with the line cutter installed that the prop is too long. Are there special shims that need to be used to mount this prop? Has anyone run into this problem with the Solas Titan? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

maddad
04-18-2011, 04:20 PM
On my 280 the Solas needs the fish line cutter's full spacer. It leaves a bit of a gap by the zinc, but Randy assured me the water wouldn't know the space was there. When I tried a cutdown spacer, the cone/nut wouldn't seat on the washer.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38004&d=1219243388

cimm
04-18-2011, 04:52 PM
On my 280 the Solas needs the fish line cutter's full spacer. It leaves a bit of a gap by the zinc, but Randy assured me the water wouldn't know the space was there. When I tried a cutdown spacer, the cone/nut wouldn't seat on the washer.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38004&d=1219243388

Thanks Maddad. Are you putting on the fish line cutter, then the prop, then the plastic thrust washer, then the cone? In that order. And if so, when all these parts are installed in the above order do you still have some of the prop hub area that protrudes out past the splines on the prop shaft? I hope that makes sense!!

maddad
04-18-2011, 05:22 PM
Yes, if the splines come past the hub, they are what will keep the cone nut from seating on the plastic washer.

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 05:46 PM
volvo makes differant size line cutter bushings, i have mine real close to the base of the drive,,i chucked it op on the lathe and took about .150 off of it get it to fit properly..but i run a ultra prop..

maddad
04-18-2011, 06:28 PM
Fix, the spacer for my ultra is half the size of the fishline cutter(9/16vs1 1/8), but it sets the solas to low on the shaft for the cone nut to work. Do you have a 23" solas that you tried and don't like and maybe want to sell?

bzsmarina
04-18-2011, 07:16 PM
23 solas in stock here http://www.firstchoicemarine.com/search.aspx?SearchTerm=+8842-156-23. hay maddad have you tryed to grind a 280 drive thinner? i ground mine ill let you know if it helps. ground it more like a e-drive look. much much thinner than it was. i can post some pics if you like.

silverghost
04-18-2011, 07:28 PM
maddad have you tryed to grind a 280 drive thinner? i ground mine ill let you know if it helps. ground it more like a e-drive look. much much thinner than it was. i can post some pics if you like.[/quote]

I would like to see a photo of your slimmed-down & streamlined drive.
How much of the casting material did you remove ?
How thick are the aluminum castings~~~before & after grinding ?

Maddad~~~
The 23" pitch Solas Titans seem to be very hard to find.
Randy told me you need at least 450+ horsepower to run a 23"P Solas.
Most folks seem to use the 21"P (up to 400HP) or with very the early low horsepower V8 engines (200-250 HP) the 19"P. Solas.
Randy told me that the Solas Titan "bites much better~~~with far less slip" than the older Volvo Ultra & standard aluminum big-ear props.

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Fix, the spacer for my ultra is half the size of the fishline cutter(9/16vs1 1/8), but it sets the solas to low on the shaft for the cone nut to work. Do you have a 23" solas that you tried and don't like and maybe want to sell?


Sorry but no! i dont have a solas prop,,i run labbed ultra props.

i also notches the rear part of the skeg..i took off about 1'' from he bottom taperes up to the where the prop is mounted so the prop could get cleaner water to the prop to keep the cavation down..

bzsmarina
04-18-2011, 08:06 PM
i ground off a good 3/4 of a inch. mostly in the front at the nose cone. only took off 1/4 at the case, per side. knife edged all leading edges. took off 1/4 at rear of skeg and case. filled in the water pick up. and just rounded it more at the torpedo. painted it silver on the lower and will water sand it to make it satin. i had 22% slip we will see if it helps.

maddad
04-18-2011, 08:29 PM
bzs, I'd like to see those pics, put them up.When I put the nosecone on, I used a belt sander and took some spots down, but not very e-drive like.

Thanks anyway Fixx. I do like the way the ultra carries the nose of the boat and I have an extra lower I could play with, so if you have any pics of your lower, I'd like to see them. I just need to get the rpms down. Are there any 14x26 ultras out there? Adding the small tab you suggested last year helped settle the steering down at the top end with the Solas. I can't seem to keep the steering fork to helmet allenbolt and lock nuts tight. I need to carry spares and check them often. Do you have this problem at all?

silverghost, I have a 23" Solas and would like to find another I can send out for more pitch to lower my rpms. I'd like to get one that was shipped from Randy if possible. If not I'll get one from a Solas dealer and then get to see if they're the same.

bzsmarina
04-18-2011, 08:38 PM
i did post pics???? thats what i have is a 14 by 26 ultra.

fixx, who labbed you ultra?

silverghost
04-18-2011, 08:41 PM
Randy may have had his "Special" Solas Titan props Tweeked to some extent .

Maddad~~~

What horsepower are you running with the Solas 23"P ?
&
What are your maximum RPMs ?
You may be able to crank-in another 2" of pitch in the Solas 23 at a good prop shop.
There is some risk in re-pitching-up a Stainless Steel Prop however.
Stainless Steel props tend to crack and fracture without proper pre-heating before re-pitching & cupping.

maddad
04-18-2011, 08:53 PM
silverghost, I have almost 450hp, and as I get more comfortable at the speeds above 5000 rpm and spend more time there, I'd like to lower the rpms. I can spin it above 5500 and would like to use the prop to limit it to 5300. I'm not willing to work on my only solas, only my extra one.

BUIZILLA
04-18-2011, 08:58 PM
the DMRS will have a few select Solas props for sale soon.. delivery to AOTH can be arranged..

Sweet little 16
04-18-2011, 09:01 PM
Maddad, the prop you posted pics of is what you'll get from solas that is the newer style , " mass" production titan not sure if an out of box will have the added cup . the early props hubs are shapped different.

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 09:07 PM
i did post pics???? thats what i am have is a 14 by 26 ultra.

fixx, who labbed you ultra?


call this guy,,he is the best,,ask for john and he will hok you up....i picked up 6mph with his labbing...

http://www.dahpropellers.com/

bzsmarina
04-18-2011, 09:15 PM
sweet thanks fixx!

maddad
04-18-2011, 09:17 PM
Maddad, the prop you posted pics of is what you'll get from solas that is the newer style , " mass" production titan not sure if an out of box will have the added cup . the early props hubs are shapped different.
Thank you!

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 09:32 PM
sweet thanks fixx!

johns work here post # 12

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43515

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 09:44 PM
bzs, I'd like to see those pics, put them up.When I put the nosecone on, I used a belt sander and took some spots down, but not very e-drive like.

Thanks anyway Fixx. I do like the way the ultra carries the nose of the boat and I have an extra lower I could play with, so if you have any pics of your lower, I'd like to see them. I just need to get the rpms down. Are there any 14x26 ultras out there? Adding the small tab you suggested last year helped settle the steering down at the top end with the Solas. I can't seem to keep the steering fork to helmet allenbolt and lock nuts tight. I need to carry spares and check them often. Do you have this problem at all?

silverghost, I have a 23" Solas and would like to find another I can send out for more pitch to lower my rpms. I'd like to get one that was shipped from Randy if possible. If not I'll get one from a Solas dealer and then get to see if they're the same.


i wouldnt worry about spinning higher rpm's,,i have been spinning mine to 5800-6200 for years and no issues.I also have h-beam rods and a light weight crank tho..

you can see my drive here post #12..

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46202

silverghost
04-18-2011, 11:20 PM
We need someone to do a side-by-side test, in the same Donzi boat, on the same water, of the same pitch standard production Solas catalog props & Randy's older "Special" props to see if these do in fact work better on a Donzi 16 & 18.

Were Grizz's props really "special" ?
Randy insisted they were.

I have no idea~~~
But I, and I'm sure others here, would like to know for sure.

Sweet little 16
04-19-2011, 07:59 AM
to my knowledge the early props were tuned up to act bigger in pitch, the production props were not tuned . so what does that mean?

an early solas was tuned and tweaked to get all possible performance out of it, so there was nothing left to get out of it. An early 21 will perform very similar to a production 23. Randy always said there was no point in trying to improve or tweak one of his props it had already been done. So I would imagine a good prop guy could tweak a production prop.


One thing to remember in all of this is that the great handling traits have not changed in any version.

any titan solas is a great investment for an old AQ classic.
The newer props are a hair longer as I have said the hub is different which moves the prop back further. Can't say what that does for performance.


I would also imagine after Randy sold the first bunch of props and ran out of stock solas then decided it might be worth mass production. Of course they weren't going to spend the extra or go the extra mile to tune each prop.


Maddad please measure you're hub's total length. I would not hesitate to buy a production prop it might need some tuning . You might also look for a 1.3 lower to get your rpm to where you want it.

maddad
04-19-2011, 08:59 AM
Sweetlittle 16, that's the second time I've heard someone(you and matty)mention a 1.36 ratio for an AQ lower. Were they made for slow spinning diesel engines? Where would someone start looking for one of those gears. After taking a few of these apart it seems the ratio is determined by the pinion gear, at the bottom of the vertical drive shaft. Is that gear still available from Volvo? I'll get that hub length before lunch. Above about 3000 rpm, all my actual speeds are greater than the theoretical speeds a 23" prop can go with a 1.63 ratio.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53781

mrfixxall
04-19-2011, 10:13 AM
Sweetlittle 16, that's the second time I've heard someone(you and matty)mention a 1.36 ratio for an AQ lower. Were they made for slow spinning diesel engines? Where would someone start looking for one of those gears. After taking a few of these apart it seems the ratio is determined by the pinion gear, at the bottom of the vertical drive shaft. Is that gear still available from Volvo? I'll get that hub length before lunch. Above about 3000 rpm, all my actual speeds are greater than the theoretical speeds a 23" prop can go with a 1.63 ratio.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53781


if you change your gear ratio you will loose your acceleration and the boat probably wont jump on plane as quick...send your prop to my guy john and tell him to take some rpm's out of it..
He took 500 rpm;s out of one of my ultras for the nos i use to run..

HallJ
04-19-2011, 12:48 PM
There's a 26 Ultra for sale in Ft. Myers if anyone's interested.
I'll load pics tomorrow. $200.

Jeff

maddad
04-19-2011, 12:52 PM
if you change your gear ratio you will loose your acceleration and the boat probably wont jump on plane as quick...send your prop to my guy john and tell him to take some rpm's out of it..
He took 500 rpm;s out of one of my ultras for the nos i use to run..

Fixx, if I can get a 1.36 ratio, I'd use it in a lower to spin the ultra I have and see what that does. As soon as I get another solas, I'm going to send it out to have work done to it.

Sweet little 16, the length of the hub is 5.25".

cimm
04-19-2011, 12:55 PM
Yes, if the splines come past the hub, they are what will keep the cone nut from seating on the plastic washer.
Thanks Maddad. When I install the prop in the order that I stated, the splines on the propshaft terminate about 1 inch inside the prop hub. Is this installation OK?

Sweet little 16
04-19-2011, 12:58 PM
Sweet little 16, the length of the hub is 5.25".
does that include the tapper and the line cutter?

maddad
04-19-2011, 01:06 PM
does that include the tapper and the line cutter?
The cutter/spacer is a seperate piece, 5.25 is the length of the props hub from the back to front, including the taper to smaller dia.
The very back of the prop(small dia.) is flush with the front of the zinc. I could probably take an 1/8th off of the spacer and back the prop into the zinc while still seating the cone nut on the washer. But not any more.

bzsmarina
04-19-2011, 10:31 PM
anyone ever try a ron hill 4 blade? he has them listed on ebay for a volvo aq. he offers them up to 26 pitch.

mrfixxall
04-19-2011, 11:09 PM
anyone ever try a ron hill 4 blade? he has them listed on ebay for a volvo aq. he offers them up to 26 pitch.


Hill Bronson is a casted 3 or 4 blade,,Hill propellers that are on ebay have the 4 blades welded to the hub,,(not good)

maddad
04-30-2011, 07:33 PM
Maddad please measure you're hub's total length. I would not hesitate to buy a production prop it might need some tuning . You might also look for a 1.3 lower to get your rpm to where you want it.

I brought this back up because I was curious about the 1.3(1.35 actually) ratios I've heard mentioned.
After a bit of searching, it turns out Volvo did offer that ratio for the AQ drives. It was only in the early 250 drives, a 250-A tagged drive would originally have that ratio. If you found one of these drives and took the pinion gear out, you could put the ratio in any of the other drives.
Anybody got one? I would like to try every way possible to make an old Volvo drive fast.

silverghost
04-30-2011, 08:46 PM
I believe Volvo was experimenting quite a bit in the early 200/250 outdrive days with both 4 cylinder Volvo engines & Chevy 230/250 CuIn inine six cylinder engines.
We used to have "shore" neighbors in the early-mid 60s where the son had a wooden clinker-built Grady-White with a Volvo 4 cylinder & the father had a similar boat with the Chevy inline six. Both had th Volvo 250 drive.
They both used this 1.35 ratio.
In fact the Volvo Speedmater "E" racing drive lower was really only originally designed for the horsepower of that that inline Chvey 6 for racing in the very early Volvo outdrive days.
That's why the "E" drive is fragile & will chip it's gears when used with a higher-horepower V-8 .
The 1.35 ratio might be a fun experiment for you .

Just Say N20
04-30-2011, 09:48 PM
That's why the "E" drive is fragile & will chip it's gears when used with a higher-horepower V-8 .

I have heard of people running high power through the e-drives for years. This is the first time I have heard them referred to as fragile. I always thought it was a pretty robust drive.

silverghost
04-30-2011, 09:58 PM
I have heard of people running high power through the e-drives for years. This is the first time I have heard them referred to as fragile. I always thought it was a pretty robust drive.

Most of the existing Volvo SpeedMaster "E" drives that survive today are parts units or units with chipped gear teeth.
I was offered a damaged "E" drive several weeks ago.
I searched for replacement parts for that drive for a couple days ; they seem to be non-existant and made of Un-obtainium.
I passed on buying that drive and another forum member bought it for only $250. + shipping.
I's basically a door-stop without new internal gears.
Search for my month-old "E" drive post here.
The "E" drive was first used in the 60s-70s to race in-line Chevy powered Volvo 250s.
They easily will self-destruct if overloaded.

Sweet little 16
04-30-2011, 10:05 PM
that would be the first I've heard of a 4 or 6 cyl turning a 1.3 A drive usually they get C or D drives normally and in some cases a B drive. Also aren't lower ratio drives stronger??? so if they had a strong 1.3 drive that could handle high HP why did they mate the higher HP motors to v drives in the early days???

maddad
04-30-2011, 10:18 PM
I'd guess they were for diesels, or inline6 motors in light boats, but don't really know. I know I'm going to go back and look at a lot of drives I dismissed because I only stockpile 280 drives and lowers.

silverghost
04-30-2011, 10:22 PM
that would be the first I've heard of a 4 or 6 cyl turning a 1.3 A drive usually they get C or D drives normally and in some cases a B drive. Also aren't lower ratio drives stronger??? so if they had a strong 1.3 drive that could handle high HP why did they mate the higher HP motors to v drives in the early days???

In the early days of the Volvo AQ250 the 1.35 ratios were only used on very small & lightweight race style boats; like he plywood Formula JRs, with 4 & 6 cylinder engines by racers in those early days.
The other non-"B" ratios that are usually of no interest to us Donzi guys were usually for bigger & higher displacment boats with these same smaller engines.
The 4 & 6 cylinder race engines I mentioned above usually had 4 barrel carbs and hotter camshaft profiles.
There were actually some race classifications in some areas for these 4 & 6 cylinder race boats.
You would not put the 1:35 in a standard boat with these same small engines.
I'd like to see what a 1:35 will do with a very healthy modern V-8

Sweet little 16
04-30-2011, 10:47 PM
In the early days of the Volvo AQ250 the 1.35 ratios were only used on very small & lightweight race style boats; like he plywood Formula JRs, with 4 & 6 cylinder engines by racers in those early days.
The other non-"B" ratios that are usually of no interest to us Donzi guys were usually for bigger & higher displacment boats with these same smaller engines.
The 4 & 6 cylinder race engines I mentioned above usually had 4 barrel carbs and hotter camshaft profiles.
There were actually some race classifications in some areas for these 4 & 6 cylinder race boats.
You would not put the 1:35 in a standard boat with these same small engines.
I'd like to see what a 1:35 will do with a very healthy modern V-8


what era are you talking about ??? I would like to see some documentation of this theory.

silverghost
04-30-2011, 11:12 PM
what era are you talking about ??? I would like to see some documentation of this theory.

1960s to the very early 1970s only.
You have to remember that speeds in the 40s-50s were common top speeds in those eary Volvo outdrive days.
4 & 6 cylinder engines were the fist to be used by Volvo on their outdrives, especially in Europe.
There were lots of 4 & 6 cylinder engines in boats with early Volvo outdrives.
Also in the old EATON & DANA drives that are fairly rare today.
You can still buy the stock marine manifolds for these & 6 Cyl Volvo boats from Volvo & OSCO today.
The Volvo I/O was first considered to be the answer to the low horsepower outboaards of that era.
Higher horsepower V-8 engines were mostly standard direct drive inboards or V-Drives.
Few V-8 engines were installed on the then NEW Volvo I/O outdrives in that early era.
That's how I remember it when I was a small kid.
The very first outrive I ever saw on ANY boat was an EATON installed on a lightweigt Ventnor sea skiff at the Ventnor factory.
They were called Inboard/Outboards in those early years

silverghost
04-30-2011, 11:31 PM
Tom Cooper owner of OSCO Motors an old aftermarket manifold suppler ,who lives only a half mile from me, told me that he is still selling entire pallets of 4 & 6 Cylinder Volvo replacment Marine manifolds & elbows to Europe each and every spring. Few are sold here in the USA anymore.
In Europe these old Volvo 4 & 6 Cylinder engines and old 250-280 outdrives are still heavily used in Europe.
Perhapps Axel in Germany knows about this ?
Volvo supposedly dominates the market overseas in Europe, and it's home area of Sweeden .

Conquistador_del_mar
04-30-2011, 11:47 PM
I have heard of people running high power through the e-drives for years. This is the first time I have heard them referred to as fragile. I always thought it was a pretty robust drive.

I bought the e-drive on my 1971 Donzi in about 1976 for $1400. It had the original LT-1 engine (350CID/350HP) marinized by Chris Craft and the e-drive has lasted with that engine until the engine had to be replaced with a 300+HP by another owner. There were a few other owners before the last owner that I bought the boat from who had a 450HP engine that broke the drive shaft, but the e-drive is still holding up. They are not fragile as you already knew. They might have gotten a fragile reputation in the racing circuit, but that is a different usage. Bill

Sweet little 16
05-01-2011, 06:54 AM
silverghost another long winded response with no answer anywhere in sight.
in one post you say the 250 1.3 drive was developed for and used only on 4-6cyl race boats. the plywood formula jr race boat do you mean jim wynn's wym-mil II???? Do you have any documentation pictures anything to support this??? This is the first I have ever heard this .

best as I know it and with the Volvo documentation I have. The aq200 was put behind v8 inteceptor power from it's begining, which would be 66 to 68.
The 200 replaced the weak eaton and in fact even wore the eaton badge.. The 200 was available in 2 ratios 1.6 and 1.8 In 68 the 250 came to be and was the standard until 72. In that era HP jumped from 200 to 210 range to 225 to 330 hp depending on motor. What did not jump in technology was props the larger pitch ultras weren't made yet . The 1.3 was the answer to keeping these motors within their rpm range. This was only available in the 250 after 72 the long shafted 270 got the ultra prop in 24 and 26 pitch so the 1.3 gearset was dropped.

All of the 1.3 drives I have seen were taken off of bigger boats with big v 8 power.

all of the e drives that I have seen had v 8 power ( just like Bill stated) and were in the 1970's not the 60's. The e drive used merc racing props and the shape of the lower doesn't lend itself well to lubrication or larger stronger gears that's why they are not as durable as other volvo lowers but far from fragile .

I bet volvo still makes alot of 4-6 cyl motors but I really doubt any of them are turning a 1.3 .

Maddad I am not sure the gears can be changed the lowers are shaped a little different but they might I don't know . I would bet that a 1.3 250 lower would bolt up to a 280 upper or the entire 250 drive will hang on a 280T transom housing

maddad
05-01-2011, 10:08 AM
Maddad I am not sure the gears can be changed the lowers are shaped a little different but they might I don't know . I would bet that a 1.3 250 lower would bolt up to a 280 upper or the entire 250 drive will hang on a 280T transom housing

Thanks for that info, it's going to help with my search. As for the gears, gear actually, I've taken a few lowers apart, 250, 270 and 280, all the driven gears on the prop shaft appear the same and have the same number of teeth. The only difference is the number of teeth on the pinion gear on the bottom of the vertical shaft. Monday I'm going to check some part numbers at AllIslandMarine, the local old Volvo super store.