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lightingwateronfire
04-17-2011, 07:59 PM
I am looking for input from the guys with experience with getting a 22 to and beyond blistering speeds of near or over 100 mph.
I am currently rigging a 22 classic with 800hp. That should be plenty of Hp to get there, the question is, as far as the setup, how to keep it stable at high speeds. Its been up fitted with 240 k's so that will defiantly do the job as far as tabs go. I have heard to minimize chine walking the rotation of the prop on this boat make a huge difference. Anyone with experience doing this?
Thanks

Carl C
04-17-2011, 08:04 PM
That's a small club with only one member that I know of; Mr. X. For some reason he has been strangely quiet about his latest Ilmor Donzi project. These boats can safely run over 100. There are lots of us running in the 80s.

Carl C
04-17-2011, 08:21 PM
Meanwhile here is some reading: Mr. X has had this boat up to 103 at least: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50796

yeller
04-17-2011, 08:31 PM
These boats can safely run over 100. There are lots of us running in the 80s.Whoaa Carl. That's a pretty dangerous statement to put out there. :shocking: Yes there are many running over 80, but I don't think even Mr X would say these boats can safely run over 100.

Carl C
04-17-2011, 08:35 PM
Whoaa Carl. That's a pretty dangerous statement to put out there. :shocking: Yes there are many running over 80, but I don't think even Mr X would say these boats can safely run over 100.

With an experienced driver and a proper set-up I'll stand by my statement. Remember Mighty Mouse? An X-18 that made plenty of safe runs around 115 mph? http://www.donzi.net/forums/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=19

mrfixxall
04-17-2011, 09:01 PM
I am looking for input from the guys with experience with getting a 22 to and beyond blistering speeds of near or over 100 mph.
I am currently rigging a 22 classic with 800hp. That should be plenty of Hp to get there, the question is, as far as the setup, how to keep it stable at high speeds. Its been up fitted with 240 k's so that will defiantly do the job as far as tabs go. I have heard to minimize chine walking the rotation of the prop on this boat make a huge difference. Anyone with experience doing this?
Thanks

just make sure you have plenty layers of 1708 and reinforcement gussets in the bilge area to keep from lifting the stringers..that's the weak part of the 22..
Did you reinforce the transom to support the kplanes?

gcarter
04-17-2011, 09:15 PM
What year is the 22?
'94 and later boats are a better starting point than most of the older boats.

Sweet little 16
04-17-2011, 09:21 PM
the 22 has been around since the 80's that's a little more than 30 years.
Sorry but if just throwing hp at it was the secret to getting a 22 into triple digits,pardon the expression, we would not be able to swing a dead cat in the air without hitting a 100 mph 22. :yes:

Inferno
04-17-2011, 09:24 PM
There are alot of question to be answered before you can start a project like this. Is the hull built (reinforced) to handle the pressure ,do you have a cradle, steering, outdrive ,ect.? I'm in final stages of building one and it's been alot of work and very expensive. I've had alot of input by friends in the racing industry, who build race boats in the 200 mph area and still we are learning with the 22. I know mine will have the ponies, but who knows what it will do once it hits the water.I think I have the capability to drive the boat, as I've been racing boats for over 40 years, hold world championships and been 186 mph on water. Still I can't say weather I will hit the 100 mark,as I will soon will find out. Remember one thing ...It's not the speed that will kill you ,it's the sudden stop!!!! 27 of my best friends have been killed racing boats and I'm not in a hurry to meet them. Good luck on your project.

lightingwateronfire
04-17-2011, 09:32 PM
just make sure you have plenty layers of 1708 and reinforcement gussets in the bilge area to keep from lifting the stringers..that's the weak part of the 22..
Did you reinforce the transom to support the kplanes?

I was looking at that and thinking about it, the transom seems pretty thin on the ends 1/2 maybe 3/4. I can fab a plate for behind the tabs. then gussets to go out and down to steps in the bilge.

LITTLE MAX
04-17-2011, 10:05 PM
I am looking for input from the guys with experience with getting a 22 to and beyond blistering speeds of near or over 100 mph.
I am currently rigging a 22 classic with 800hp. That should be plenty of Hp to get there, the question is, as far as the setup, how to keep it stable at high speeds. Its been up fitted with 240 k's so that will defiantly do the job as far as tabs go. I have heard to minimize chine walking the rotation of the prop on this boat make a huge difference. Anyone with experience doing this?
Thanks. Why would anybody want to run 100+Mph in a boat 22' or less
You are only asking for trouble if you had not had a lot of seat time in the boat running 80+ then 90+ mph running a 100+mph is a whole new world
Good luck on your project

Just Say N20
04-17-2011, 11:15 PM
I think I have the capability to drive the boat,

• as I've been racing boats for over 40 years,

• hold world championships

• and been 186 mph on water.

Still I can't say weather I will hit the 100 mark, as I will soon will find out.

Remember one thing ...It's not the speed that will kill you ,it's the sudden stop!!!! 27 of my best friends have been killed racing boats and I'm not in a hurry to meet them. Good luck on your project.

Reformatted for clarity. Seems qualified to take on this endeavor.

Carl C
04-17-2011, 11:24 PM
There are alot of question to be answered before you can start a project like this. Is the hull built (reinforced) to handle the pressure ,do you have a cradle, steering, outdrive ,ect.? I'm in final stages of building one and it's been alot of work and very expensive. I've had alot of input by friends in the racing industry, who build race boats in the 200 mph area and still we are learning with the 22. I know mine will have the ponies, but who knows what it will do once it hits the water.I think I have the capability to drive the boat, as I've been racing boats for over 40 years, hold world championships and been 186 mph on water. Still I can't say weather I will hit the 100 mark,as I will soon will find out. Remember one thing ...It's not the speed that will kill you ,it's the sudden stop!!!! 27 of my best friends have been killed racing boats and I'm not in a hurry to meet them. Good luck on your project.

I bet a lot of folks beside me would like to know more about your project.

lightingwateronfire
04-18-2011, 12:21 AM
. Why would anybody want to run 100+Mph in a boat 22' or less
You are only asking for trouble if you had not had a lot of seat time in the boat running 80+ then 90+ mph running a 100+mph is a whole new world
Good luck on your project

Im powering it with one of my engines and doing the rigging, as far as myself I have countless hours in 100+ mph boats as does my customer. I am just not familiar with the 22 classic at high speeds.

lightingwateronfire
04-18-2011, 12:25 AM
There are alot of question to be answered before you can start a project like this. Is the hull built (reinforced) to handle the pressure ,do you have a cradle, steering, outdrive ,ect.? I'm in final stages of building one and it's been alot of work and very expensive. I've had alot of input by friends in the racing industry, who build race boats in the 200 mph area and still we are learning with the 22. I know mine will have the ponies, but who knows what it will do once it hits the water.I think I have the capability to drive the boat, as I've been racing boats for over 40 years, hold world championships and been 186 mph on water. Still I can't say weather I will hit the 100 mark,as I will soon will find out. Remember one thing ...It's not the speed that will kill you ,it's the sudden stop!!!! 27 of my best friends have been killed racing boats and I'm not in a hurry to meet them. Good luck on your project.


Oh I hear you, no corners are being cut here and safety is at the up most priority. This boat will be ran at the only highest speed that can be ran safely. the goal here is to do what needs to be done to maximize that safe speed. It has dual ram steering already and now real tabs. Its getting there.

Planetwarmer
04-18-2011, 01:33 AM
Make sure you wear arm floaties if you are going that fast! If you wear a T-shirt over them, you look really buff!!

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 02:06 AM
I was looking at that and thinking about it, the transom seems pretty thin on the ends 1/2 maybe 3/4. I can fab a plate for behind the tabs. then gussets to go out and down to steps in the bilge.


i reinforced my transom on my x18,,didnt like how thin it was so i built it up with 1708 and 1/4 birch plywood..i cut it in strips and layed glass and wood to 1 3/4'' thick..then i glassed in a shelf over the the top of the stringers from the transom forward to the second gusset thats about even twith the front of the engine.. its solid as a rock..

BTW get that waiver sighed from your customer :wink:

yeller
04-18-2011, 04:42 AM
With an experienced driver and a proper set-up I'll stand by my statement. Remember Mighty Mouse? An X-18 that made plenty of safe runs around 115 mph? Yes, of course I remember Mighty Mouse. I still wouldn't casually toss out a remark that these boats can safely go over 100. I remember when I first got my boat. "You don't need tabs", people said. Well, I damn near tossed myself out of the boat trying to drive without tabs.

What I'm getting at is; if you don't clarify your statement, it sounds as if it is easy to go 100 in these boats. It's not. If you don't get TONS of seat time, and build up to that speed a bit at a time, by tweaking and testing, tweaking and testing.....you could die. Plain and simple.

Carl C
04-18-2011, 07:52 AM
Yeller, some things go without saying. That includes the inherent risk of any type of high speed recreational vehicle. I'm not saying that anyone can run out and go 100 mph safely in a Donzi Classic any more than they can do 115 in an STV, or 100+ on a snowmobile. I'm saying that it has and can be done, and done safely. Learning to drive a 22 Classic first is a must because you can throw a lot of that boating experience out the window. These boats are unique and they will bite an inexperienced driver. Where's Mr. X?

fogducker III
04-18-2011, 10:02 AM
Yeller, some things go without saying. That includes the inherent risk of any type of high speed recreational vehicle. I'm not saying that anyone can run out and go 100 mph safely in a Donzi Classic any more than they can do 115 in an STV, or 100+ on a snowmobile. I'm saying that it has and can be done, and done safely. Learning to drive a 22 Classic first is a must because you can throw a lot of that boating experience out the window. These boats are unique and they will bite an inexperienced driver. Where's Mr. X?

THAT is what you should have put with your first statement.....:wink:

joseph m. hahnl
04-18-2011, 04:36 PM
the 22 has been around since the 80's that's a little more than 30 years.
Sorry but if just throwing hp at it was the secret to getting a 22 into triple digits,pardon the expression, we would not be able to swing a dead cat in the air without hitting a 100 mph 22. :yes:


True. Horse power doesn't mean squat if you don't have the RPM and the pitch . Lets not forget that Mighty mouse had a surface piercing drive and a super charged big block that was turning roughly 6500 Rpm.I think it was this combination that allowed triple digits. I think the secret to speed in deep V's is air in the water and reduced wetted surface. weather it be at the prop or at the hull air bubbles are essential for reducing friction . Hence the the reason why a ZX or ZR is 10 mph faster out of the box, and why 80mph seems to be the norm for a stepped hull with no mods.

To make a 22 go 100mph it will take tremendous pitch and rpm, which I think with 850 ponies is achievable. Just not sure if a traditional drive will allow it to reach those speeds.

Carl, I knew what you meant with you first statement.:wink: :yes:

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 05:50 PM
True. Horse power doesn't mean squat if you don't have the RPM and the pitch . Lets not forget that Mighty mouse had a surface piercing drive and a super charged big block that was turning roughly 6500 Rpm.I think it was this combination that allowed triple digits. I think the secret to speed in deep V's is air in the water and reduced wetted surface. weather it be at the prop or at the hull air bubbles are essential for reducing friction . Hence the the reason why a ZX or ZR is 10 mph faster out of the box, and why 80mph seems to be the norm for a stepped hull with no mods.

To make a 22 go 100mph it will take tremendous pitch and rpm, which I think with 850 ponies is achievable. Just not sure if a traditional drive will allow it to reach those speeds.

Carl, I knew what you meant with you first statement.:wink: :yes:



joe,, it was a 440cid small block with the procharger..:shades:

Sweet little 16
04-18-2011, 06:01 PM
torque and gear ratio are a key too the hydro merlin engines 12cyl don't rev more than around 2500 rpm

my point was if it is so easy to get a 22 into the 100's why haven't we seen it as a common occurance and mighty mouse was not a 22

mighty mouse was alot more than pitch rpm and hp, it had a running surface unlike any classic that I know of. plus it was an evolution from a stock volvo boat to a 120mph boat over years of tweaking and testing.

I am not saying it can't be done or that there are not people that can handle it at those speeds. Just that I think at those speeds it is out of it's niche. it is a stretched out 45 year old design that has not seen any mass improvements in technology or design.

Donziweasel
04-18-2011, 06:03 PM
To make a 22 go 100mph it will take tremendous pitch and rpm, which I think with 850 ponies is achievable.

Ted did it with 710 hp.

Carl C
04-18-2011, 06:31 PM
Ted did it with 710 hp. Yes he did. And gleaning some tidbits from his thread it looks like (unconfirmed) he did it with a greatly beefed up hull, a Bravo XR upper, Imco lower, 1.5 drive ratio, Herring 5 blade 30p prop, engine turning about 6,200 rpm. I wish Ted wasn't so secretive sometimes ;). http://www.donzi.net/forums/showpost.php?p=481905&postcount=55

roadtrip se
04-18-2011, 06:37 PM
Ted does it on a flat pond, during the week so there are no others around, and he has access to some of the finest performance minds in the business.
I admire him for what he has accomplished. I also admire his ability to stay alive doing it. And I sincerely thank him for sharing some of his rigging tricks, which I have utilized on the Flowerpot.

I have had some wild experiences in the 80's over the years. I have focused on this re-rig round on handling, first, and performance, second. The results have been awesome so far and we are not done yet.

As for those who aspire to repeat this feat, please get mucho seat time before showing up at a rally.

22times2
04-18-2011, 06:45 PM
I say good luck with that.It will be a flying coffin.Better have your life Ins updated. regards.:shocking:

Bamboo Loui
04-18-2011, 06:55 PM
Ted does it on a flat pond, during the week so there are no others around, and he has access to some of the finest performance minds in the business.
I admire him for what he has accomplished. I also admire his ability to stay alive doing it. And I sincerely thank him for sharing some of his rigging tricks, which I have utilized on the Flowerpot.

I have had some wild experiences in the 80's over the years. I have focused on this re-rig round on handling, first, and performance, second. The results have been awesome so far and we are not done yet.

As for those who aspire to repeat this feat, please get mucho seat time before showing up at a rally.

I always thought you wrote SAFETY FIRST-- but maybe I was reading something into it that wasn't there. I thought you wanted a good --safe--cruising speed that was way above the norm.- being new- I probably did not understand

Bamboo Loui
04-18-2011, 07:01 PM
seriously todd--thanks for all your help--- but please stay safe

Doug

CaribouLou
04-18-2011, 07:35 PM
I personally want nothing to do with anything over mid 80's in one of these boats. I'll watch though :wink:

mrfixxall
04-18-2011, 07:47 PM
i blieve ted first broke into the 100 mph range in a 22 c with a 600 sc pkg

MOP
04-18-2011, 08:25 PM
i blieve ted first broke into the 100 mph range in a 22 c with a 600 sc pkg

Yup! As I remember and see in the video I have 105 with the old white/red boat 103 with the new boat, tells me he has some left in the bank!

Tried to post the video but it has been posted before so no dice!

joseph m. hahnl
04-18-2011, 08:42 PM
joe,, it was a 440cid small block with the procharger..:shades:


Mighty Mouse
1976 Donzi X-18 Arneson Drive
750 hp 440c.i. Procharged Small Block Chevy

oops: Damn it Fix. :worthy:

I must of been thinking of a different mouse:bonk:
http://www.cartoonbrew.com/wp-content/uploads/herman-150x150.jpg (http://www.cartoonbrew.com/wp-content/uploads/herman.jpg)

roadtrip se
04-18-2011, 08:52 PM
seriously todd--thanks for all your help--- but please stay safe

Doug

Thanks Doug. You are right on, performance is only good, if you can do it safely. I haven't changed my tune one bit on this topic!

roadtrip se
04-18-2011, 09:05 PM
I see Mr. X lurking out there on this thread right now, so I'll let him set the record straight on his numbers, but you guys are way off.

As for citing him as an example of someone who has run a 100, he is also a great example of someone that took his time getting there. The 500 boat showed up in 2000, the 600 about two years later, and the 710 eight years later more or less. He also took about a year building and dialing in the Ilmor boat. What he did not do was jam big HP in a boat and go racing the next day...

Dr. Dan
04-18-2011, 09:15 PM
:popcorn: Yawn!

Greg Guimond
04-18-2011, 09:23 PM
I just read this whole thread and the one thing that really stood out above the rest was 27 dead former friends. That was a sobering sentence.

lightingwateronfire
04-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Id love to chat with the X man if he swing in

silverghost
04-19-2011, 12:02 AM
I just read this whole thread and the one thing that really stood out above the rest was 27 dead former friends. That was a sobering sentence.

I gave-up running super-fast small boat speeds in the 1980s when a good friend G. Scheff was killed in a NJ drag boat race.
His boat went into the air,~~~flipped~~~stuffed~~~then completely broke-up.
He was sadly de-capitated.
His parents & sister saw the entire tragic race event.
To this very day they have NEVER gotten over it .
He won the race~~~but died at the finish.
It was a closed casket funeral.
All the race drivers attended.
This was long before enclosed cockpits & safety rescue capsules.
Two other drag boat racers were also killed on the very same race circuit that year.

I built his engines & wrenched on his boat~~~
I did not race myself.

I now stick to speeds in the 60s-70s .
I guess I am just getting too old ?
Life is short~~~
It's not worth the risk in my opinion.
If I want to go fast~~~
I fly an airplane.

Carl C
04-19-2011, 01:46 AM
Drag boats accelerate to over 200 mph in a 1/4 mile. Hell yeah they're dangerous but a controlled run up to 100 mph is a whole different thing. I'm also happy with mid 80s. At least for now. The 525 is blower ready so in a couple years who knows, might be time to shoot for mid 90s :). I think these projects are cool and this forum can help see that it gets pulled off right!

Kurts111699
04-19-2011, 04:58 AM
This is a boat we are doing together I am the owner .I have a 38 zr 700s to go 100 in the 22 is going to be right and very fast but I won't go over 80.I had a 22shelby and that did 78 and that was all i could handle.I have a 6year old girl and I dont have a death wish I am a panzi in small boats. I dont drink and am very very safe I want to die when i am a 100 not going 100 its all talk .

GBond
04-19-2011, 09:04 AM
I personally want nothing to do with anything over mid 80's in one of these boats. I'll watch though :wink:

Me 2

Donziweasel
04-19-2011, 09:21 AM
There are currently three known 22's over 100. 1. Teds- Ilmore V-10 710 hp. 2. Shelby on west coast with Ilmore V-10 710 hp. For sale, but has been sitting for several years. 3. Yellow 22 that was for sale not to long ago. 800 hp+ blown motor.

Of course, there are several Cig 20's over 100, and I have heard about a Sutphen or two.

Point is, it can be done, and done safely. Depends on setup and driver. Make small incremental increase instead of huge jumps.

I remember when Bill got his ZX in the 100 mph range. If I remember right, it drove on rails till around 96 and then with 1 more mph, she became a different boat and squirrley as hell.

Then there was Kieth, actually, lets not go there....... :)

BUIZILLA
04-19-2011, 09:32 AM
and the yellow one in Stuart, Fla.

Carl C
04-19-2011, 09:47 AM
This is a boat we are doing together I am the owner .I have a 38 zr 700s to go 100 in the 22 is going to be right and very fast but I won't go over 80.I had a 22shelby and that did 78 and that was all i could handle.I have a 6year old girl and I dont have a death wish I am a panzi in small boats. I dont drink and am very very safe I want to die when i am a 100 not going 100 its all talk .

Hard to understand this. You want to build a 100 mph 22 Classic that you will never take over 80 mph.......Why?

LITTLE MAX
04-19-2011, 10:03 AM
Im powering it with one of my engines and doing the rigging, as far as myself I have countless hours in 100+ mph boats as does my customer. I am just not familiar with the 22 classic at high speeds. I am not talking about seat time in other boats I am talking about seat time in this boat Running 80+ 90+ then running 100 safely.

Greg Guimond
04-19-2011, 10:33 AM
Agree 100%. I assume that this uber 22 Classic is going to have a 100% stock bottom?

Greg Guimond
04-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Hard to understand this. You want to build a 100 mph 22 Classic that you will never take over 80 mph.......Why?

Agree Carl, perhaps the builder is asking what it will take to go 100 but the owner will be satisfied with 80. Nice that both builder and owner on now on thread so they can comment. I'm thinking they may be building to a 100mph spec knowing it won't be used for a long while :confused:

ykoutsaris
04-19-2011, 11:54 AM
I'm curious about the part of the initial post which asked about the effectiveness of turning the prop the other way to increase stability. Anybody with experience with/thoughts on such a move?

LITTLE MAX
04-19-2011, 11:59 AM
[quote=Donziweasel;598213]There are currently three known 22's over 100. 1. Teds- Ilmore V-10 710 hp. 2. Shelby on west coast with Ilmore V-10 710 hp. For sale, but has been sitting for several years. 3. Yellow 22 that was for sale not to long ago. 800 hp+ blown motor.[quote]


I saw something about this on here posted by MR X

1) Llmore V-10 710 HP Does runs 100+ mph
as for #2 & #3 these 2 boats do not run a 100 mph
2) Shelby Llmore V-10 710 HP
3) Yellow 22 800 hp+ Blower motor

Carl C
04-19-2011, 12:58 PM
I'm curious about the part of the initial post which asked about the effectiveness of turning the prop the other way to increase stability. Anybody with experience with/thoughts on such a move?

Why would it? The prop torque tends to make the boat list to port until you get up to a certain speed and get most of the hull out of the water and run a little positive trim which off-sets prop torque. Since the helm is on starboard, the driver's weight works to off-set prop torque. To reverse rotation would worsen things if anything and I don't think anyone has done it. I usually have to drag a little port tab to keep the boat level except when aired out at high speed. Reversing prop rotation would worsen the list.

Kurts111699
04-19-2011, 01:02 PM
I love the 22 classic I have my whole life .I bought the boat last year and had it 1 summer and wanted to up grade the boat and am trying to do it right the first time.80 is good for me I met a guy who had the power for sale and he made me the deal I have trust in him .You go any faster then 80 or up you better know what your doing or thats it party over.I have 500 or better hrs seat time on classics never bin over 80.:crossfing::crossfing::crossfing::crossfing:

Greg Guimond
04-19-2011, 01:37 PM
No one will ever argue with doing it right the first time. Be safe and best of luck :yes:

The Hedgehog
04-19-2011, 03:31 PM
I am not talking about seat time in other boats I am talking about seat time in this boat Running 80+ 90+ then running 100 safely.

I could not agree more. Many of us have seat time in fast boats. When I did the ZX, I had more emails and questions about when I would "go for it."

My builder did go for it. He has rigged and built lots of 150+ mph boats. He took it to 95 and then ran out of balls. That told me everything I needed to know. If my memory serves me right, I did not venture past 92 or so until the next season. I had lots of trips feeling the boat out in the high 80's and low 90's before I stayed into it long enough. After a few crazy runs, I came back with some 280's. With better planes and more seat time, I crossed the 100 mph barrier. It felt right. Any earlier would have been like pulling a slot machine and hoping that everything comes out right. That is no way to drive a boat.

I will do it again sometimes but also only when the situation is right. 100 or so in the ZX is kind of like Mardi Gras. You don't want to go there every weekend. That being said, it is a GREAT 85 mph boat that gets there in a hurry. There are a number of folks on this board that have had that ride and more that will.

Donziweasel
04-19-2011, 04:40 PM
Little Max, the Ilmore in Washington did crack 100. I consider Ted a friend and his 22 is one of the nicest I have seen. He did more to it than just performance. Fairing and some other nice aesthetics. He never liked the other Ilmore 22 for some reason. Some members saw it and the backed up its claim. The yellow one was states to have 850 hp and its owner said it ran north of 105. If the hp numbers were correct, then I have no reason to doubt it. Ted was probably the first on the 100 mph club on a 22, but he is no longer alone. I actually know of a member building an 800+ hp 22 right now. Knowing him, it will be done really nice. Can't wait to see it.

Greg Guimond
04-19-2011, 04:50 PM
2010 Bench Racer speed stats, a fast year for the Classics ...... http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif :yes: :)

16 Classic = younger running at 84.4 GPS ....... Blackhawk Drive-Hoss Modified 29 and 31
18 Classic = 8318 running at 78.6 GPS............. Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV
22 Classic = Mr X running at 103.4 GPS.............Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV

The Hedgehog
04-19-2011, 07:30 PM
2010 Bench Racer speed stats, a fast year for the Classics ...... http://www.donzi.net/ubb/smile.gif :yes: :)

16 Classic = younger running at 84.4 GPS ....... Blackhawk Drive-Hoss Modified 29 and 31
18 Classic = 8318 running at 78.6 GPS............. Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV
22 Classic = Mr X running at 103.4 GPS.............Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV

I know one that will be higher.

mike o
04-19-2011, 07:55 PM
I know one that will be higher. Show ME State.:kingme:

Donziweasel
04-19-2011, 08:01 PM
I know one that will be higher.

I think we both know the same person. I don't think it will be ready for AOTH though, there were some setbacks. Gonna be sick when she is done though.

BUIZILLA
04-19-2011, 08:04 PM
2 will be higher

one is black

one is not

Donziweasel
04-19-2011, 08:29 PM
2 will be higher

one is black

one is not

Both 22's? If so, the 100 mph club is getting some membership....... :)

If it is a 22, might know about the black one.

Fishermanjm
04-19-2011, 08:58 PM
How much fuel will ur big HP classic drink up goin 100mph?
What is ur average fuel consuption on a classic 22?

Greg Guimond
04-19-2011, 09:51 PM
Who cares what it costs..........just buy more 93 :pimp:

glashole
04-19-2011, 09:58 PM
How much fuel will ur big HP classic drink up goin 100mph?
What is ur average fuel consuption on a classic 22?


:bonk::bonk::bonk::)

more than a prius

CaribouLou
04-19-2011, 10:05 PM
The black and white twin turbo ASD equipped 22 on the .org site shouldn't have a problem reaching north of 100.


As for the Ilmore Shelby boat, its a 625 Ilmore, and there's a reason why it hasn't sold...

The Hedgehog
04-19-2011, 10:07 PM
Show ME State.:kingme:

That is good. Everyone needs to show the money!

The Hedgehog
04-19-2011, 10:09 PM
How much fuel will ur big HP classic drink up goin 100mph?
What is ur average fuel consuption on a classic 22?


Probably around 100 gallons per hour. It will be the cheapest part of operating such a beast.

roadtrip se
04-20-2011, 09:40 AM
2 will be higher

one is black

one is not

I'll go with teal for $500 Alex! I just love this game...

BTW, no way the Shelby broke 100 with a 625, not enough go to show.

And fuel economy, really?

roadtrip se
04-20-2011, 09:53 AM
If you are going to go like this, you had better show up with these...

http://www.donzi.org/forum/showthread.php/1935-Lifeline-jackets-for-cost

Fishermanjm
04-20-2011, 10:08 AM
Hey,,, common i was just wondering how much fuel the engine would consume

DonziJon
04-20-2011, 11:02 AM
I believe a stock 350 at full tilt will burn ~21 GPH. I read that in a boating magazine that road tests boats, a few years ago. Kinda like Road & Track for boats. Don't remember the name. :lookaroun: DJ

The Hedgehog
04-20-2011, 12:04 PM
Hey,,, common i was just wondering how much fuel the engine would consume

My number was not far off for a fire breathing big block

Although we all think about fuel cost, at the end of the day it is by far not one of the biggest expenses.

Don't worry, the yacht folks like to dwell on that too. I see guys looking to buy, store, insure and maintain million dollar yachts who worry if a boat burns 20 vs 30 gallons per hour.

While we think about it, we try not to let the trips to the pump ruin our days on the water.

Ghost
04-20-2011, 12:17 PM
Hey,,, common i was just wondering how much fuel the engine would consume


I believe a stock 350 at full tilt will burn ~21 GPH. I read that in a boating magazine that road tests boats, a few years ago. Kinda like Road & Track for boats. Don't remember the name. :lookaroun: DJ

My understanding concurs with Jon's. Namely that a 310 hp stock high output EFI 350 will burn about 21-22 GPH wide open, at 5000 RPM. I have seen these numbers in MANY boat tests done with floscans.

Two of those would be double the displacement, 620HP, 44GPH. A single 8 liter 710HP Ilmor v-10 is less displacement than two small blocks, but nearly another 100HP. My guess is the Ilmor is more efficient, in HP per GPH, than two small blocks. So, with some very crude math, I'm guessing the Ilmor burns between 40 and 50GPH wide open. If I had to drop a bet in the office pool, I'd go with 44GPH. EDIT: Maybe I should bump that up a little. Maybe 50 GPH is a better guess.

As a sanity-check, at 100mph, 40-50 GPH would yield between 2 and 2.5 MPG. Which actually sounds somewhat reasonable to me for a single engine 22C. (The mileage of the very fast boats (say 80-90mph) that I recall seeing doesn't seem like it drops off all that much up at the high end. For instance, BoatTest.com shows a Cig 36 gladiator with twin 5000EFI motors peaks at 1.5MPG at 40 MPH and 3000RPM. As you climb up in 500 RPM increments, the mileage drops to 1.4, 1.34, 1.13, and ends at 1.07 MPG at 85 MPH and 5000RPM.)

NEW DATA POINT: A 29 Fountain Fever single 500HP big block at 76MPH gets 1.7 MPG and burns 39 GPH.

zelatore
04-20-2011, 01:30 PM
My number was not far off for a fire breathing big block

Although we all think about fuel cost, at the end of the day it is by far not one of the biggest expenses.

Don't worry, the yacht folks like to dwell on that too. I see guys looking to buy, store, insure and maintain million dollar yachts who worry if a boat burns 20 vs 30 gallons per hour.

While we think about it, we try not to let the trips to the pump ruin our days on the water.


Oh yes, they are almost always asking 'how much does it burn?'.

The truth is, you could pretty much tell these guys anything you want. I'm quite sure some dealers do. A few years ago I had a guy cross-shopping me against a big Sea Ray. He asked the question and I gave him a number - est. only since it's so variable. I tried to be honest and said about 35-40 gph at 20 knots - 1/2 mpg. This was on a good size twin diesel boat and is pretty typical.

He got all upset saying what a pig it was - after all, the Sea Ray only burned 12 gph at the same speed. The salesman just told him so!

I usually let that sort of thing go with an 'OK, whatever you say' sort of response. No point arguing with them. But this guy kept at it until I finally said 'I don't know if you mis-heard the salesman of if he's telling you an outright lie, but I GUARANTEE that boat doesn't burn 12 gph at 20 knots. It might do a little better than ours since it's a slightly smaller boat, but it's nowhere close to 20!'.

I didn't make the sale.

The sad part is, most owners really have no idea how much they burn at a given RPM unless they have a newer motor with built-in usage readings or install a flowscan. I probably could have told him it was 12 gph and he'd have believed me.

About the only time it's really important is for range calculations. Here on the west coast, there aren't that many places to stop for fuel, especially if you're heading south of Ensenada, Mexico.

Greg Guimond
04-20-2011, 01:49 PM
280HP wacker attacker excerpt for a GPH comparo to monster muscle.....:hijack:

The Mercury 2.5 280 is basically a race outboard in “street” trim. In stock form at best cruise speed (35.5 mph at 3500 rpm), mileage was really not bad at all (7.3 gph and 4.9 mpg). At a faster cruise (48.5 mph at 4500 rpm) the 280 burned 11.8 gph and 4.1 mpg, which is still pretty darn good for a non-DFI outboard. At 6500 rpm and 83.1 miles per hour, things got a lot worse; the 280 burned 26.4 gph and 3.1 mpg. We held on for a top speed reading, which at 108 mph and 7700 rpm was 30.5 gph and 3 mpg.

roadtrip se
04-20-2011, 03:23 PM
I run through about 55 gallons in a 100 miles or 1.81 mpg.

I carry a handheld GPS as an odometer, so I know when to start looking for more fuel, so I can go another 100!

glashole
04-20-2011, 04:19 PM
almost every boat I own/have owned runs about $100 and hour cruising

big block 22

pair of small blocks in a cruiser

pair of big blocks in a formula

crude math but it seems to hold true

keep in mind this is CRUISING about 3000 rpm

The Hedgehog
04-20-2011, 04:46 PM
That is pretty funny Zel, no most of them don't.

I figure that a blown BBC in a 22-26 foot boat is getting 1mpg or less at 100mph.

My ZX does not do too bad as long as you stay out of the boost. Boost comes in, fuel pressure goes up and fuel burns.....

If you are pushing 800-900hp, you are burning some fuel.

gero1
04-20-2011, 10:02 PM
a bone stock 502 run wfo will get you about 78 miles......or 12 miles from the nearest dock, it was a long slow tow. i say drive it like you rented it! someone will tow you in

zelatore
04-20-2011, 10:03 PM
If anybody's looking for good mileage I just had a guy call me wanting to sell his late father's 25' Albin. :angel:

With about a 30 hp diesel it should do pretty good on fuel at say 8 knots.

What do you say? Any takers?

Anybody?

Is this thing on?

The Hedgehog
04-20-2011, 10:04 PM
a bone stock 502 run wfo will get you about 78 miles......or 12 miles from the nearest dock, it was a long slow tow. i say drive it like you rented it! someone will tow you in

Bring your butt down to Nooga and show us!

Sweet Cheekz
04-20-2011, 10:07 PM
My Cheifs got .5 miles per gallon Really dont miss that

Parnell

Carl C
04-20-2011, 10:36 PM
So where did these guys go who want to build the 100 mph 22C?

Greg Guimond
04-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Maybe taking in the facts and getting to work :yes:

16 Classic = younger running at 84.4 GPS ....... Blackhawk Drive-Hoss Modified 29 and 31
18 Classic = 8318 running at 78.6 GPS............. Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV
22 Classic = Mr X running at 103.4 GPS.............Hydromotive-Intimidator Quad IV

yeller
04-20-2011, 10:56 PM
As a sanity-check, at 100mph, 40-50 GPH would yield between 2 and 2.5 MPG. Which actually sounds somewhat reasonable to me for a single engine 22C.[/I]2~2.5mpg is waaaaaay too high. I'll only get about 2.5 from my 496HO/SC at cruising speed. I doubt I'd get 1mph at full throttle.

Planetwarmer
04-21-2011, 01:05 AM
Our J-24 sailboat gets great gas mileage!! :boat:

Ghost
04-21-2011, 01:14 AM
2~2.5mpg is waaaaaay too high. I'll only get about 2.5 from my 496HO/SC at cruising speed. I doubt I'd get 1mpg at full throttle.

The more I drill in beyond my first extremely crude math, the more I think we're both wrong.

I agree that 2.5 is way too high. (Recall I got a range of 2-2.5 based on doing some simple math, and estimated at the bottom of that range, 2 MPG.) But I think 1 MPG or below is WAY low.

What's sneaky about the MPG stat is that you burn a lot of fuel, but you also eat miles in a hurry at that speed. If you look at the BoatTest measurements of fast boats, MPG curves drop off less than one might think. They drop, sure, but not crazy amounts. Of course, to be fair, the ones I'm used to seeing don't usually go above 85. I'm really basing my estimates on fuel burn.

Consider that one MPG at 100 MPH would be 100 gallons per hour. Recall that the 500 HP Merc, professionally measured, was only burning 38GPH. The 29 Fountain Fever, a much bigger boat, with that single 500HP big block at 76MPH gets 1.7 MPG.

Is a 700HP Ilmor going to burn TWICE what a 500HP Merc burns? Even if it did, that'd be 78 GPH, and you're looking at 1.3 MPG. And I don't think there is any way it can burn that much gas. Most everything I have looked at, from measured professional tests, shows that with comparable RPM, the fuel burn is reasonably proportional to the HP. (Of course, that's with more traditional stock motors.)

But if that's approximately true, (710/500)*39GPH = 55.4 GPH for the Ilmor. At 100 MPH, that's 1.8 MPG. At 103 MPH, which I think is what was quoted for the Mr X, that puts the estimate at 1.86 MPG.

Sanity checking sensitivity, 1.5 MPG at 100 would be 67 GPH. That's almost 12 gallons per hour more than the proportional HP/gallon estimate.

I don't know how high an Ilmor 710 revs. That might change the math I suppose.

But no matter what, I can't believe the numbers could get below 1.3 MPG, and even that seems low to me. So while I agree with you that 2.5 is way too high, my crude estimate of 2 has to be getting closer to the ball park. And when you look at the fuel burn, one MPG or below just seems absurd, unless the Ilmor is burning more fuel than I think is even possible. (I will say that maybe it revs crazy high and that changes things. But at 1MPG, the 710HP Ilmor would have to burn 2.5 times what a 500HP Merc burns. That just can't be. Of course, I am used to looking at fuel burn in stock engines. Maybe between compression, blower, and RPM it can.)

But enough theory. :) Now I really want to know what an Ilmor 710 burns...

Carl C
04-21-2011, 01:30 AM
Our J-24 sailboat gets great gas mileage!! :boat:

It blows. :)

Ghost
04-21-2011, 02:24 AM
Speaking of Carl :),

I just pulled another BoatTest with his motor, the 525. Looks like that one burns about 43 gph wide open.

If I correctly recall his personal best of about 86 mph, he'd be looking at almost exactly 2 MPG running flat out.

(Can you tell I'm trying to convince myself I'm not completely smoking crack? :))

Ghost
04-21-2011, 02:37 AM
2~2.5mpg is waaaaaay too high. I'll only get about 2.5 from my 496HO/SC at cruising speed. I doubt I'd get 1mph at full throttle.

I would guess you might get better than you think at cruise. If you give me an RPM and speed, I'll pull up a test on that motor and see what that suggests. The test data are all at 500 RPM increments, so 2500, 3000, or 3500 would be ideal. I'm curious. I'd think most 22Cs with big EFI motors would cruise (say, 30-35mph) above 3 MPG, perhaps closer to 3.5.

osur866
04-21-2011, 03:18 AM
Not a 22 or a big block, however, my 18 use to cruise around 3,600 @ around 52-54mph, never really did a mpg test but it was actually pretty efficient, also a side note I'd think anything under the 40 mph would be less efficient account my boat really doesn't like to stay on plan much below that speed without the use of tabs, anything above the 3,600 rpm range and I notice she gets more thirsty, 3,400 - 3,600 was the sweet spot in my set-up.

Steve

The Hedgehog
04-21-2011, 05:48 AM
The more I drill in beyond my first extremely crude math, the more I think we're both wrong.

I agree that 2.5 is way too high. (Recall I got a range of 2-2.5 based on doing some simple math, and estimated at the bottom of that range, 2 MPG.) But I think 1 MPG or below is WAY low.

What's sneaky about the MPG stat is that you burn a lot of fuel, but you also eat miles in a hurry at that speed. If you look at the BoatTest measurements of fast boats, MPG curves drop off less than one might think. They drop, sure, but not crazy amounts. Of course, to be fair, the ones I'm used to seeing don't usually go above 85. I'm really basing my estimates on fuel burn.

Consider that one MPG at 100 MPH would be 100 gallons per hour. Recall that the 500 HP Merc, professionally measured, was only burning 38GPH. The 29 Fountain Fever, a much bigger boat, with that single 500HP big block at 76MPH gets 1.7 MPG.

Is a 700HP Ilmor going to burn TWICE what a 500HP Merc burns? Even if it did, that'd be 78 GPH, and you're looking at 1.3 MPG. And I don't think there is any way it can burn that much gas. Most everything I have looked at, from measured professional tests, shows that with comparable RPM, the fuel burn is reasonably proportional to the HP. (Of course, that's with more traditional stock motors.)

But if that's approximately true, (710/500)*39GPH = 55.4 GPH for the Ilmor. At 100 MPH, that's 1.8 MPG. At 103 MPH, which I think is what was quoted for the Mr X, that puts the estimate at 1.86 MPG.

Sanity checking sensitivity, 1.5 MPG at 100 would be 67 GPH. That's almost 12 gallons per hour more than the proportional HP/gallon estimate.

I don't know how high an Ilmor 710 revs. That might change the math I suppose.

But no matter what, I can't believe the numbers could get below 1.3 MPG, and even that seems low to me. So while I agree with you that 2.5 is way too high, my crude estimate of 2 has to be getting closer to the ball park. And when you look at the fuel burn, one MPG or below just seems absurd, unless the Ilmor is burning more fuel than I think is even possible. (I will say that maybe it revs crazy high and that changes things. But at 1MPG, the 710HP Ilmor would have to burn 2.5 times what a 500HP Merc burns. That just can't be. Of course, I am used to looking at fuel burn in stock engines. Maybe between compression, blower, and RPM it can.)

But enough theory. :) Now I really want to know what an Ilmor 710 burns...

Some of this backs up why Mr. X's project is neat. He used a combination of weight management, propping and X dimension to put together an efficient machine. Others use brute hp (the easier way)

An Ilmor 710 is a good bit more efficient than the 942 hp blower motor in my ZX. We could boat tune mine to be more efficient in the higher ranges but that becomes kind of a scary exercise. Tex did this. The same thing would be true in a 800hp motor. It would really take a blower motor to pull those numbers and it would take something like that or more to run with Mr X's well dialed in machine. Once you get into blowers, tuners like to run a little on the fat side to help control detonation. That decreases efficiency. Would it be 85gph or 100? the tune will tell. Point is, it would be a lot of fuel. A lot more than a 500 efi. You can't apply the same linear math once you get into that world.

Another factor to consider is slip factor. Slip actually decreases at high speed in a well dialed in machine. Get it right, and it is your friend. Use brute hp to make speed and efficiency goes the other way. I can run mine at 85 in nice water and pull some good slip numbers. If I run in a pack with a bunch of cross chop, I have to drag a little tab to keep it settled. That requires more juice.

There is better technology today that improves efficiency in higher hp blower motors. Eddie recently did this using a combination of a more efficient 4 litre whipple (as opposed to a 3.3) along with a distributer-less ignition in his 950. As a result he pulled around 1,100hp at better AFR's and EGT's than his prior package. That equals less fuel and a safer combo.

Just Say N20
04-21-2011, 07:54 AM
My 79 18 2+3 had a 20-ish gallon tank, stock 260 (very tired) Mercruiser, Alpha with a 21" cleaver prop.

3,400 rpms (before the Q-Jet secondaries opened) was about 41 mph. At this cruising speed, I would get between 4.5 - 5 mpg. If pushed, it would go about 100 miles before being bone dry. That would be approximately 2.5 hours of run time, or burning about 8 gph.

But that was a small block running on only the smaller Q-Jet primaries.

A 496 at WOT, pushing this 22 to about 73 mph is burning 36 gph, or 2 mpg.

Mr X
04-21-2011, 08:54 AM
The more I drill in beyond my first extremely crude math, the more I think we're both wrong.

I agree that 2.5 is way too high. (Recall I got a range of 2-2.5 based on doing some simple math, and estimated at the bottom of that range, 2 MPG.) But I think 1 MPG or below is WAY low.

What's sneaky about the MPG stat is that you burn a lot of fuel, but you also eat miles in a hurry at that speed. If you look at the BoatTest measurements of fast boats, MPG curves drop off less than one might think. They drop, sure, but not crazy amounts. Of course, to be fair, the ones I'm used to seeing don't usually go above 85. I'm really basing my estimates on fuel burn.

Consider that one MPG at 100 MPH would be 100 gallons per hour. Recall that the 500 HP Merc, professionally measured, was only burning 38GPH. The 29 Fountain Fever, a much bigger boat, with that single 500HP big block at 76MPH gets 1.7 MPG.

Is a 700HP Ilmor going to burn TWICE what a 500HP Merc burns? Even if it did, that'd be 78 GPH, and you're looking at 1.3 MPG. And I don't think there is any way it can burn that much gas. Most everything I have looked at, from measured professional tests, shows that with comparable RPM, the fuel burn is reasonably proportional to the HP. (Of course, that's with more traditional stock motors.)

But if that's approximately true, (710/500)*39GPH = 55.4 GPH for the Ilmor. At 100 MPH, that's 1.8 MPG. At 103 MPH, which I think is what was quoted for the Mr X, that puts the estimate at 1.86 MPG.

Sanity checking sensitivity, 1.5 MPG at 100 would be 67 GPH. That's almost 12 gallons per hour more than the proportional HP/gallon estimate.

I don't know how high an Ilmor 710 revs. That might change the math I suppose.

But no matter what, I can't believe the numbers could get below 1.3 MPG, and even that seems low to me. So while I agree with you that 2.5 is way too high, my crude estimate of 2 has to be getting closer to the ball park. And when you look at the fuel burn, one MPG or below just seems absurd, unless the Ilmor is burning more fuel than I think is even possible. (I will say that maybe it revs crazy high and that changes things. But at 1MPG, the 710HP Ilmor would have to burn 2.5 times what a 500HP Merc burns. That just can't be. Of course, I am used to looking at fuel burn in stock engines. Maybe between compression, blower, and RPM it can.)

But enough theory. :) Now I really want to know what an Ilmor 710 burns...

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
You are right on the money! I am burning EXACTLY what my friends 06
classic with the 496 burns (and it is NOT an HO)....we ran side by side for over an hour and a half, thru the entire speed range. I even ran at top end a few times..and so did he. ( not side by side then).
We burned the same amount of fuel!
The ILMOR is very efficient, but my RPMs are much lower versus the 496
at the same speed.
Ghost, your theory is FACT! Very impressive.

Mr X
04-21-2011, 09:07 AM
Some of this backs up why Mr. X's project is neat. He used a combination of weight management, propping and X dimension to put together an efficient machine. Others use brute hp (the easier way)
An Ilmor 710 is a good bit more efficient than the 942 hp blower motor in my ZX. We could boat tune mine to be more efficient in the higher ranges but that becomes kind of a scary exercise. Tex did this. The same thing would be true in a 800hp motor. It would really take a blower motor to pull those numbers and it would take something like that or more to run with Mr X's well dialed in machine. Once you get into blowers, tuners like to run a little on the fat side to help control detonation. That decreases efficiency. Would it be 85gph or 100? the tune will tell. Point is, it would be a lot of fuel. A lot more than a 500 efi. You can't apply the same linear math once you get into that world.
Another factor to consider is slip factor. Slip actually decreases at high speed in a well dialed in machine. Get it right, and it is your friend. Use brute hp to make speed and efficiency goes the other way. I can run mine at 85 in nice water and pull some good slip numbers. If I run in a pack with a bunch of cross chop, I have to drag a little tab to keep it settled. That requires more juice.
There is better technology today that improves efficiency in higher hp blower motors. Eddie recently did this using a combination of a more efficient 4 litre whipple (as opposed to a 3.3) along with a distributer-less ignition in his 950. As a result he pulled around 1,100hp at better AFR's and EGT's than his prior package. That equals less fuel and a safer combo.
Ding Ding Ding.....Another winner!
Finally, somebody gets it! Thays exactly what I was trying to do, and did it!
Not to mention, Naturally aspirated, light weight, all with turn key reliability....and a warranty.

Another post shows me running a Quad IV..? No idea how that got out there, but I have never even tried one.

Carl C
04-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Ding Ding Ding.....Another winner!
Finally, somebody gets it! Thays exactly what I was trying to do, and did it!
Not to mention, Naturally aspirated, light weight, all with turn key reliability....and a warranty.
Another post shows me running a Quad IV..? No idea how that got out there, but I have never even tried one.

Now that we have your attention ( ;) ), didn't you add considerable weight to the hull with the massive reinforcement and multiple layers of glass over everything and larger stringers? Seems to me that this weight would more than off-set the reduced weight of the aluminum Ilmor. Did you go with the XR/Imco/Herring @ 1.5?

I only run 83-85 (best recorded speed of 85.8 & hitting limiter) but my boat also runs very flat and true and predictable and stable and it is a joy to drive at high speed. It is a joy at any speed for that matter, just not so much fun when the waves kick up to over 3 feet!

gcarter
04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
Most any modern NA engine will burn about .55 lb/HP/Hr or better.
I once saw a dyno sheet on a 496 that was built by a reputable shop and was posted by Poodle. I remember a couple of interesting things was it never got to .55 lb anywhere on the chart, and, in places, it was at .39 lb/HP/Hr which is in Diesel territory!!! It was quite amazing. If a NA engine in a boat gets too far out of whack, something else is wrong, like hooks, bottom paint, the engine starving for air, too much air resistance or weight.
Blower motors are different though, that blower doesn't spin over for free. Not only, like the hedgehog said, run rich, but it takes an amazing amount of HP to run the thing. Bill's engine may be actually producing 1,100-1,200 HP to see his output at the crank.

The Hedgehog
04-21-2011, 11:01 AM
Most any modern NA engine will burn about .55 lb/HP/Hr or better.
I once saw a dyno sheet on a 496 that was built by a reputable shop and was posted by Poodle. I remember a couple of interesting things was it never got to .55 lb anywhere on the chart, and, in places, it was at .39 lb/HP/Hr which is in Diesel territory!!! It was quite amazing. If a NA engine in a boat gets too far out of whack, something else is wrong, like hooks, bottom paint, the engine starving for air, too much air resistance or weight.
Blower motors are different though, that blower doesn't spin over for free. Not only, like the hedgehog said, run rich, but it takes an amazing amount of HP to run the thing. Bill's engine may be actually producing 1,100-1,200 HP to see his output at the crank.

You bring up another good point and that is drag induced by the actual blower. Mine is probably not quite that high as it is a centrifugal blower but there is a good reason that it takes a thick belt. When you see the big roots blowers with the cog belts, they really take some power to spin them. Screw blower (like the whipple) run in between. Yes, blower efficiency is a big factor. They also generate lots of heat (and energy loss). We can mitigate this a good bit in boats by using a cooler, but it still requires more fuel for a safety margin. It you want to see the impact of the heat, we can take a ride in my ZX. If I run low boost for a few minutes and then back it down, you can almost burn your hand on the blower outlet tube. At the same time, the intercooler outlet tube is much cooler. All the energy that makes this heat comes from the blower compressing the air (and some from the gears). The parasitic drag induced by superchargers is why turbos are good to get greater efficiency. The energy cost of the additional back pressure of the turbo is not as great as what super charger demands from the crank. Although turbos make the heat too, they take the energy from back pressure.

The Hedgehog
04-21-2011, 11:30 AM
If you want to be a little more technical, you can look at the duty cycle on the injectors in an EFI engine.

Eddie likes to tune his to run in the 85% range at max. My engine was built to make 850 hp on 65 lb injectors. It has more cam than necessary and the centrifugal blower will keep generating boost as RPM's climb. This makes it hard to tune. The bigger cam was to help compensate for Eddies concern about the restrictive intake. We got more HP as a bonus.

My engine was optimized to run to 5,700 rpm. It will continue to make power and spin to 6,200 RPM. It is not really dialed in at the higher speeds (above 5,700). We could do it on a dyno, but then would have to fine tune it in the boat as the boat does not load an engine like a dyno. Sitting on the floor of my boat with a laptop while running over 5,700 RPM is a scary exercise. Eddie actually did this up to 90 mph or so. I would imagine hunching over in a 22 running 90 plus while watching AFR's and dialing pulses and timing would also be scary. Even with a carb engine, you need to watch AFR's as you re-jet it. The solution? Dial it in as high as you can and then go fat for safety. That KILLS efficiency.

So now we go back to duty cycle. The typical procharger bandaid kit runs injectors at well over 100% duty cycle. How does it do this? It does by jacking up the fuel pressure. Basically at WFO, your injectors are stuck open and fuel is really being slammed through. Be careful and not step it up too hard or they will close.

Now let's take a look at my engine. I run 65lb injectors. Although I have not examined the extreme top end, at 100% capacity, I have 8 injectors running 65 lbs an hour or 520 lbs total. Gas weighs 6.073 lbs per gallon. That makes for 85.6249 gallons per hour.

Ok, so 100 gallons per hour may be a little high for what is needed to get the a 22 to 100 mph by using brute force. At the same time it is not way off. Point is....it take a good bit of fuel.

Can it be done using far less fuel? Absolutely. Mr X shows that. Even with his experience it took time and lot's of careful thought.

lightingwateronfire
04-21-2011, 05:54 PM
as the front comes together and the tabs on

gcarter
04-21-2011, 06:11 PM
I'm interested in seeing what youve done to the stringers and bottom, and how you went about it.
Also what you're doing about steering.

lightingwateronfire
04-21-2011, 06:19 PM
I'm interested in seeing what youve done to the stringers and bottom, and how you went about it.
Also what you're doing about steering.


thats in progress now, webbing n tying together the whole back end.

Carl C
04-21-2011, 07:13 PM
thats in progress now, webbing n tying together the whole back end.

Keep us posted and up to date please. These projects are awesome. Ignore the naysayers, hehe, not everyone here is into going fast :). There is a lot of great experience here that helped me out on my projects. Ted can be a big help but getting him to talk is like getting teeth pulled. Oh Theodore, where art thou? Zeiger makes a nice ready to install steering kit for your boat with drilling guides, pre-cut hoses and detailed instructions. I would really like to see what you are doing to the hull and using for engine mounts.

BUIZILLA
04-21-2011, 07:22 PM
:wink: I like the ignition and start setup

GBond
04-21-2011, 08:32 PM
Keep the updates coming.

Thanks

Phil S
04-22-2011, 02:00 AM
Looks like 1.148568962 gph based on my estimate.....:shocking: :wink:


She'll probably run pretty fast too.......be safe with her !


Do keep us posted.....sure looks nice.

Phil S.

DonziJon
04-22-2011, 05:58 PM
My '86 Minx w/sbc 350/260 hp burns 3.5-4.0 GPH. I mostly cruise at 28-30 mph. I like to "putt around" off plane also..and maybe a WOT speed run for a new guest. :wink: DJ

PS: MPG is a BOGUS argument in any boat. Just sayin. :)

DonziJon
04-22-2011, 07:41 PM
I know some of you have a negative attitude toward SAIL boats. That's OK. I understand. I've mentioned this before but I thought I might just bring it up again for those New Members on the Forum.

My last boat was a C&C 32..Sailboat. Built in Canada. I sailed it to Bermuda and back in 1981...SOLO. (5 days, 25 Minutes..outbound)

Prior to that I sailed a C&C 27 to Bermuda and back... SOLO. Just braggin. :yes:

The 32 had a Yanmar 15 hp diesel.. strait inboard. If there was no wind..the engine was there. It burned ONE Gallon of Diesel every FIVE Hours @ 6 Knots. Thump Thump Thump. There are tradeoffs with a diesel. :bonk: DJ

Carl C
04-22-2011, 08:26 PM
I know some of you have a negative attitude toward SAIL boats. That's OK. I understand. I've mentioned this before but I thought I might just bring it up again for those New Members on the Forum.
My last boat was a C&C 32..Sailboat. Built in Canada. I sailed it to Bermuda and back in 1981...SOLO. (5 days, 25 Minutes..outbound)
Prior to that I sailed a C&C 27 to Bermuda and back... SOLO. Just braggin. :yes:
The 32 had a Yanmar 15 hp diesel.. strait inboard. If there was no wind..the engine was there. It burned ONE Gallon of Diesel every FIVE Hours @ 6 Knots. Thump Thump Thump. There are tradeoffs with a diesel. :bonk: DJ

No problem here except for one time when a sailing club was heading out into Lake Erie in single file and would not let me through. After a long wait to give them the right of way there was finally a big enough gap to zip through. I thought that was pretty ignorant on their part.

maddad
04-22-2011, 08:50 PM
Last year MOP, mphatc and I got to the jetty in Greenport the same time as a group of sailboats, at least a couple dozen of them. There were some really nice boats in that group, and everyone I saw waved and smiled as we buzzed through their flottila. They were spread out over about a 1/2 mile x 1/4 mile area and it was a pretty awesome sight.
(this has 0 to do with 100mph 22's)

Greg Guimond
04-22-2011, 10:21 PM
It all comes back to one simple thing.........anyway you can get on the water, just do it. It's a common language :yes:

Kurts111699
04-23-2011, 12:12 AM
Weekend $1200.00 + maitenance + Insurance + miscellaneous + boat payment = 3500 for a good weekend 14k month give or take.:bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk:

lightingwateronfire
04-23-2011, 06:32 AM
Weekend $1200.00 + maitenance + Insurance + miscellaneous + boat payment = 3500 for a good weekend 14k month give or take.:bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk:

And the looks you get in your ride......PRICELESS

gcarter
04-23-2011, 06:44 AM
I know some of you have a negative attitude toward SAIL boats. That's OK. I understand. I've mentioned this before but I thought I might just bring it up again for those New Members on the Forum.

My last boat was a C&C 32..Sailboat. Built in Canada. I sailed it to Bermuda and back in 1981...SOLO. (5 days, 25 Minutes..outbound)

Prior to that I sailed a C&C 27 to Bermuda and back... SOLO. Just braggin. :yes:

The 32 had a Yanmar 15 hp diesel.. strait inboard. If there was no wind..the engine was there. It burned ONE Gallon of Diesel every FIVE Hours @ 6 Knots. Thump Thump Thump. There are tradeoffs with a diesel. :bonk: DJ

Several years ago I helped a friend move his 33' sloop from Crystal River, FL to his new home in the Keys. It was in the last of July, there was no wind and very hot. The boat also had a one cylinder Yanmar that we listened to for about 65 hours.
The only good thing about this was 6 knots was faster than you could walk!
The resonance set up in the glass hull was almost unbearable.

The Hedgehog
04-23-2011, 10:02 AM
Weekend $1200.00 + maitenance + Insurance + miscellaneous + boat payment = 3500 for a good weekend 14k month give or take.:bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk::bonk:

That is about right.

roadtrip se
04-23-2011, 10:57 AM
That is about right.

Spend all of that dough on a big twin engine (insert favorite brand here) and then have some dude hang on your tail like no tomorrow for 20 miles between Chatt and Hale's Bar in a 22 Classic during a poker run, no less. Could have been that the Classic guy had no idea where he was going...

Now THAT was fun, even it was just a 35 Fountain with 500's.

Carl C
04-23-2011, 11:13 AM
Regarding the prop rotation question I found these interesting posts on OSO. Since my 22 Classic levels out and flies the bow with a little positive trim to the point where I can raise the tabs completely it seems to me that reversing rotation would reverse that effect, where positive trim would increase port listing and negative trim would level the boat but plow the bow which is dangerous to do on these boats BTW.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/3382105-post22.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/3382721-post23.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/3382763-post24.html

The whole thread which dates back to '05: http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/superboat/107900-prop-results-y2k.html

roadtrip se
04-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Forget about it. I have tested with lefties, because it was all I could get without having to spend significant dough to try something. There were two of us in the boat of about equal size, and the boat wanted to heal over to port like no tomorrow. The only way to correct for it was to drag a tab, which my boat normally doesn't take any tab at all. My boat is a 2001 C22.

Morgan's Cloud
04-23-2011, 12:33 PM
I know some of you have a negative attitude toward SAIL boats. That's OK. I understand. I've mentioned this before but I thought I might just bring it up again for those New Members on the Forum.
My last boat was a C&C 32..Sailboat. Built in Canada. I sailed it to Bermuda and back in 1981...SOLO. (5 days, 25 Minutes..outbound)
Prior to that I sailed a C&C 27 to Bermuda and back... SOLO. Just braggin. :yes:
The 32 had a Yanmar 15 hp diesel.. strait inboard. If there was no wind..the engine was there. It burned ONE Gallon of Diesel every FIVE Hours @ 6 Knots. Thump Thump Thump. There are tradeoffs with a diesel. :bonk: DJ
Thanks for poppin' by ...
Still , that was 6 years before I got the St T so we probably wouldn't have had too much to talk about..
Great personal accomplishment though !
(Now , back to topic ....)

The Hedgehog
04-24-2011, 10:42 AM
Spend all of that dough on a big twin engine (insert favorite brand here) and then have some dude hang on your tail like no tomorrow for 20 miles between Chatt and Hale's Bar in a 22 Classic during a poker run, no less. Could have been that the Classic guy had no idea where he was going...
Now THAT was fun, even it was just a 35 Fountain with 500's.

I live for that. No, I can't run with the 135mph guys but do run with lots of big twins that really don't cruise any faster than I do.

shayne
04-26-2011, 07:24 AM
. Why would anybody want to run 100+Mph in a boat 22' or less
You are only asking for trouble if you had not had a lot of seat time in the boat running 80+ then 90+ mph running a 100+mph is a whole new world
Good luck on your project

Because you can!!!
Here in Australia we run 21 to 23 foot boats (and smaller) at 100-130mph with 2 skiers out the back!!!
These small V-bottom boats are able to run at these speed over an 80mile course not just a few seconds infront of your mates.
So I can't see why the Donzi22 classic set up right wont do a similar thing.
and yes water sking above 70mph is fun....:wink:

lightingwateronfire
05-04-2011, 10:26 PM
this is not done yet, but getting there, heres a sneak peek

roadtrip se
05-06-2011, 09:29 AM
this is not done yet, but getting there, heres a sneak peek

I spent a significant amount of time fortifying my boat for more power last year. Coring, mounts, cradle, and a HD transom assembly.

Maybe it's the picture, but what exactly are you doing with all of this metal?

GBond
07-01-2011, 08:30 PM
TTT....a progress report on your 22c project would be great!

Thanks