Internal hydraulic steering project

[DickB]

I want to replace the cable steering in my C18 without spending a lot of money. I'd love to install external steering, but read the part about not spending a lot of money again. I managed to find a used SeaStar HC5328 steering cylinder that is supposed to fit my Alpha for $50 and a HH5272 helm for $80. They need a little TCL but I was told they are in working order with no leaks. The helm bezel is cracked, but I will probably fabricate one out of mahogany eventually. I bought a new steering wheel adapter from Speed & Custom Marine to reuse my mahogany wheel. I need to order a pair of hoses and some steering fluid while I get going on cleaning these items up and painting them. I haven't measured hose length yet.

[gcarter]

Aeroquip.....your local dealer will be able to supply you for less than $200.00.
The big thing will be mounting the cylinder onto your gimbal housing.
I think you'll need some more pieces.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55705&stc=1&d=1273029166

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55706&stc=1&d=1273029166

[MOP]

Will you be using power steering?

[Planetwarmer]

George, is that an internal power steering unit? Ive never seen that setup before.

[DickB]

Will you be using power steering?
Yes, the boat already has power steering.

[DickB]

The big thing will be mounting the cylinder onto your gimbal housing.
I think you'll need some more pieces.
I'll take a look at the current setup tomorrow and see.

[Just Say N20]

George, can you size down your pictures? They are HUGE making reading this thread really tough.

Thanks.

[gcarter]

George, is that an internal power steering unit? Ive never seen that setup before.

Yes, this is the Merc set-up using this Hynautic cylinder.

[MOP]

George Please!

[MOP]

The ram simply slides in where the cable end did, I have done a couple for customers over the years it could not be easier. I have that same ram new in the box, I was going that route when I put my 22 together but stayed with the cable. You did very well I paid around $350 and now it sits on the shelf.

[gcarter]

Sorry guys.....
One of the problems w/V-Bulletin is if you change the resolution, it may make you go back and change the pictures everywhere you've ever posted them.

Phil, maybe you have changed these systems over, but what about this system I had in the Minx????????
It was a heck of a lot bigger i.e., the Merc part of it, than the standard Merc cable rig.
It seemed to have been designed for that Hynautic cylinder.

[MOP]

Not quite under standing your question! All you do is remove the cable ans insert the ram assy into the same tube, mount a helm and hook up the lines could not be simpler. Very easy system to bleed, fill it then drop both bleeder hoses into a can with clean oil and turn the wheel in one direction forcing teh oil through the helms check valves, do this until no bubbles are seen in the can then turn it in the other direction repeat until no bubble in either direction. Most can complete the install in 5-6 hours. If anyone want a new ram I have it!

[gcarter]

Not quite under standing your question! All you do is remove the cable ans insert the ram assy into the same tube, mount a helm and hook up the lines could not be simpler. Very easy system to bleed, fill it then drop both bleeder hoses into a can with clean oil and turn the wheel in one direction forcing teh oil through the helms check valves, do this until no bubbles are seen in the can then turn it in the other direction repeat until no bubble in either direction. Most can complete the install in 5-6 hours. If anyone want a new ram I have it!

Phil, what I'm trying to say is the assembly above is significantly larger than the one I took off, particularly in the Merc shuttle valve area. Also, the tiller mechanism was longer and that's what destroyed one of my oil filters.
We have to be talking about two different systems.

[gcarter]

After looking at Dick B's cylinder photo and the one in my photo, it has become obvious to me they are two different cylinders and may very well be a direct cable replacement.
Good luck.

[DickB]

After looking at Dick B's cylinder photo and the one in my photo, it has become obvious to me they are two different cylinders and may very well be a direct cable replacement.
Good luck.
There's an application guide here: http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/STERNDRIVE/stern.htm and that's what I used to get the part number. I priced new cylinders and helms at $350-$400 each, so yes if these work I'll be happy with the cost. Looks like hoses will be my most expensive item. Anyone know the length for an 18? I suppose I will go measure anyway. Just spent a little time cleaning up the outside of the helm and shaft of the cylinder. Both are pitted, so I may use some texture paint on them.

[DickB]

I haven't worked on hydraulic systems before. Should I be using Teflon tape or a sealer of some type on the threads? I can order the SeaStar fluid but any suggestions on alternatives that might be available locally?

[MOP]

George I believe the ram is basically the same.

[DickB]

Well, after primer I could see that the helm was not terribly pitted after all. Nothing that a little filler putty and some wet sanding couldn't handle.
The hoses and fluid arrived today - turns out I ordered it from nearby. I guess I don't check a lot of times. I need to finish up a few other projects before I start installation.

[gcarter]

I haven't worked on hydraulic systems before. Should I be using Teflon tape or a sealer of some type on the threads? I can order the SeaStar fluid but any suggestions on alternatives that might be available locally?

Teflon tape is OK, but when you're at the local Aeroquip dealer, why not ask them what they reccomend?
As far as fluid goes, you can use a lot of things, but to be safe, try to figure out what was in the helm before and use it again. If you change fluids, you may have a reaction w/seals and O-rings. Not that you will, but why take a chance? It's not uncommon to use ATF, for instance.

[gcarter]

The paint job looks great.

[gcarter]

Here's another tip.....
You'll probably need to cover up the Morse helm holes in the dash. To keep from having to refinish the dash, I made a painted aluminum cover plate for behind the new helm.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=55708&stc=1&d=1273029166

[Fishermanjm]

So u can do away with the cable steering and upgrade to the
hydrolic steering? The steering control head lines and the ram
on the gimble. I have a hydrolic system in my center console
that system does not have the play that my 22 has. I really don't
like the steering at all.

[gcarter]

So u can do away with the cable steering and upgrade to the
hydrolic steering? The steering control head lines and the ram
on the gimble. I have a hydrolic system in my center console
that system does not have the play that my 22 has. I really don't
like the steering at all.

If you have slop in the tiller and pin, you'll still have that same slop.
But is does take everything else out and it's pretty easy to do.

[Fishermanjm]

Factory mercruiser parts or aftermarket? It sounds like
something I will do After the exhaust system that's getting
upgraded

[MOP]

Teflon is great stuff but it is super important to be VERY careful when tightening, it reduces friction so much it is very easy to split fittings. Moeller Tanks come with a warning not to use it they will void their guarantee if Teflon used. It takes about half the turning force to seal with it compared to other products.

[DickB]

Here's another tip.....
You'll probably need to cover up the Morse helm holes in the dash. To keep from having to refinish the dash, I made a painted aluminum cover plate for behind the new helm.]
Looks very nice and fits well. Here's a picture of my dash. You can probably guess how I will cover up the hole if needed.

[DickB]

Factory mercruiser parts or aftermarket? It sounds like
something I will do After the exhaust system that's getting
upgraded
Aftermarket by TeleFlex, SeaStar brand.

[DickB]

Teflon tape is OK, but when you're at the local Aeroquip dealer, why not ask them what they reccomend?
As far as fluid goes, you can use a lot of things, but to be safe, try to figure out what was in the helm before and use it again. If you change fluids, you may have a reaction w/seals and O-rings. Not that you will, but why take a chance? It's not uncommon to use ATF, for instance.
Appreciate the tip on Aeroquip hoses, but I decided to use standard SeaStar outboard hoses, which can be ordered in various lengths. Recommended for the 2.4 helm that I have and less than $100. No bling under my hatch, so these will look at home. Also went ahead and got the SeaStar fluid. I believe it may be commonly used, but Teleflex recommends ATF fluid in an emergency only.

[DickB]

I remove the cable from the outdrive. looks like the cylinder should slip in from the starboard side, but there's no room as cylinder + shaft = too long. Do I need to dismantle the cylinder? How do i do that?

[gcarter]

It demounts from the inner transom plate w/the two large hex head bolts on the top and bottom of the steering ears. And of course, the tiller pin.
So, you think you can install it w/it removed and in your lap?

[DickB]

George, I removed the cable just fine by removing the clevis pin and then unscrewing the cable and pulling it out. It looks like the hydraulic cylinder and shaft slip in just like the cable, but of course the cylinder won't bend like the cable did, so there's not enough room to slip it in. I would need to drill a big hole in the hull to get it in straight.

[DickB]

OK, I should have looked a little closer. I guess I need to partially remove the power steering to get the new steering cylinder in.

[MOP]

OK, I should have looked a little closer. I guess I need to partially remove the power steering to get the new steering cylinder in.

Remove the large pivot bolt and lift it clear all of a sudden it becomes very simple. You may have to unbolt the oil cooler if yours is mounted on the bell housing.

[DickB]

Thanks; figured that out. There're two bolts/pivots, one top and bottom, both with locking tabs on them. Tough for an old guy to get at in that cramped engine bay, I'm feeling it now, but I managed after having removed the muffler tip and Quick and Quiet and spending more than a few minutes upside-down in the hatch. Ready bolt it back up this morning. :wrench: :crossfing:

[DickB]

It demounts from the inner transome plate w/the two large hex head bolts on the top and bottom of the steering ears. And of course, the tiller pin.
So, you think you can install it w/it removed and in your lap?
George, sorry, I didn't understand your post at first, but now that I've done it, it makes sense to me. Sometimes I am slow.
I got everything installed and back together, fluid added and bled. Seems to be fine. I had to move my bilge blower - it was located on the transom and the steering cylinder would interfere if I left it where it was. The helm fit pretty well into the existing hole; I just needed to drill the four mounting holes and epoxy seal them to mount it. The aluminum backing plate came with the helm, which turned out to be useful. The original four mounting holes are now exposed, but a trim ring will cover them nicely - a project for another day. Ice is nearly out here, but still on the cool side, so I have a few days at least before the season opens.
Playing with the old cable helm I get about 3-4 degrees of movement in the helm before the shaft at the other end even moves. Hopefully this system will help. No leaks detected on this used equipment. I must say that I have had my fill of working in that engine bay, at least for a while, so I'm happy that all appears to be working well. Working under the dash is only a little better.

[gcarter]

The only issue I had w/mine was the Morse helms tend to have fairly small displacement. On the Minx, it took 4 turns, L to L. The first time I used it, I thought it must still have air in it it was so slow.
Hang in there, you'll get used to it.

[DickB]

Spring has been slow here so I have only had the boat out a few times. As you said, response is a little slower but not bad - I have no issue with that. I didn't expect a huge improvement but there is improvement over the cable setup. I'm happy with the result considering what I spent.

I ordered a new symmetrical steering wheel and am fabricating a trim ring to cover the holes on the dash from the old helm.

[MOP]

Glad you got it sorted out, now you can make more dust creating neat stuff!

Phil

[DickB]

Installed new trim ring and steering wheel.

[gcarter]

Great addition, Dick.

[silverghost]

Dick~
Do you have any idea how many turns lock-to-lock your steering wheel now turns with your new Seastar system upgrade ?

I have a new Seastar 2.4Cu.In. displacment helm that I plan to use with my old Volvo 270 outdrive in my Donzi 18 Benchseat project..
I also am going to replace the old stock Donzi installed Teleflex steering push-pull cable & Big-T helm with this Seastar helm pump and a 1 1/4 " conventional balanced Seastar inboard rudder style cylinder with it's heim sphere joint attached to the old Volvo 270 outdrive's internal steering tiller arm.

This system should make a great simple internal steering system upgrade for all us old non-power steering Vovo, ,250,270,280 outdrive owners.

I bought this Seastar system years ago for an old mahogany woody runabout conventional inboard project and never used it.
I think I have at least $600+. in this new Seastar system that has just been sitting on my shelf for over a decade.
The helm pump alone was $400. new I believe !

I like these Seastar systems for a simple self contained hydraulic steering system.
No need for any engine mounted steering pump as the Seastar helm itself is a self contained helm pump that uses a steering wheel shaft squash plate to activate a series of internal helm piston plunger pumps mounted in a ring.
I also plan on using the simple Seastar low pressure nylon hydraulic lines.
I am not looking to build more than a 55-60 MPH boat on my benchseat 18 project.
For that speed this self-contained steering system should work just fine; & be a great upgrade from the old sloppy Teleflex conventional push-pull cable + Big-T helm stock Donzi system it will replace.

The Seastar systems also have internal helm pump check valves that allow you to let go of the steering wheel at any time and the steering system will hydraulically lock & stay where you stopped that steering wheel and not allow theoutdriv to pull to one side; or get out of control.
Torque steer should not be much of an issue with the Volvo 270 outdrive's trim tab adjusted properly to zero out prop torque steer..

[osur866]

If anyone is looking to do one of these I have a helm and actuator that I took off my 18 that needs a new home, it is used but was in perfect working condition when I took it off, I went full dual ram external account I upped my HP a bit and increased my speed a 20 mph but the system worked well up to 70, if anyone interested PM me. Steve