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View Full Version : Need fiberglass advice on a BIG project.....



Donziweasel
03-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Alright, I am having some issues with the Argo. I need a hard top for winter operations and rentals. I am also entertaining the idea of selling them. I looked into a plastic molded one, but you will need a 2000 pound press and the only availability for one is in China.

I got into it with ODG (the makers of Argo) and they will not build one. They offer a stupid soft top that is about as durable as Kleenex. I need them for my winter rental fleet and possible selling them to Argo owners.

I began to wonder about fiberglass. It will need to be somewhat strong and more importantly, light wieght. So, knowing there are some talented glass guys on here, I thought I might try and get some input.

Below is a pic of one I found that someone had made. Any ideas? How hard would it be to produce these? Anyone know of a good glass guy that might be interested in producing them for me? Looking at an initial run of maybe 4 for a 6x6 and 4 for an 8x8. Thanks!!!

mrfixxall
03-28-2011, 07:04 PM
Alright, I am having some issues with the Argo. I need a hard top for winter operations and rentals. I am also entertaining the idea of selling them. I looked into a plastic molded one, but you will need a 2000 pound press and the only availability for one is in China.

I got into it with ODG (the makers of Argo) and they will not build one. They offer a stupid soft top that is about as durable as Kleenex. I need them for my winter rental fleet and possible selling them to Argo owners.

I began to wonder about fiberglass. It will need to be somewhat strong and more importantly, light wieght. So, knowing there are some talented glass guys on here, I thought I might try and get some input.

Below is a pic of one I found that someone had made. Any ideas? How hard would it be to produce these? Anyone know of a good glass guy that might be interested in producing them for me? Looking at an initial run of maybe 4 for a 6x6 and 4 for an 8x8. Thanks!!!


call me!!

Rootsy
03-29-2011, 07:55 AM
I think you mean 2000 TON press... Finding the press isn't the difficult part... Floating the tooling cost would be an eye opener...

silverghost
03-29-2011, 12:14 PM
Did you try a company that does Vaccu-Forming, or Vacuum-Forming, of thermo-plastic panels & parts ?

The PROCESS~
A sheet of thermo plastic is placed over a panel part die/mold & heated until soft.
Then a quick vacuum is applied to allow the part to be formed over the die mold..
Finally the part is cooled to set the final shape & trimmed of excess material.

This is a very quick & cheap process.
Only one wood die-mold is needed for each panel.

You may wish to look into this.
Perhapps you can market these Vacu-formed thermoplastc enclosure kits to other dealers & the ARGO builder themselves to lower your initial panel mold tooing costs ?

This is the most inexpensive way to make these panel parts.

Fiberglass & Resin with a chopper gun spraying it over a mold would be much more costly.

Hand lay-up of fiberglass would be very costly .

Good Luck.

Sweet Cheekz
03-29-2011, 02:08 PM
I looked into a plastic molded one, but you will need a 2000 pound press and the only availability for one is in China.

!!!

Michigan is chuck full of guys that could make that but Rootsy is right The die might be cost prohibitive.
Good luck

Parnell

Donziweasel
03-29-2011, 03:10 PM
The PROCESS~

A sheet of thermo plastic is placed over a panel part die. heated until soft.
Then a quick vacuum is applied to allow the part to be formed over the die mold..
Finally the part is cooled to set the final shape & trimmed of excess material.

This is a very quick & cheap process.
Only one wood die-mold is needed for each panel.

You may wish to look into this.
Perhapps you can market these Vacu-formed thermoplastc enclosure kits to other dealers & the ARGO builder themselves to lower your initial panel mold tooing costs ?

This is the most inexpensive way to make these panel parts.

Now we are talking. Going to see if I can find a company that does this. Sounds like what I am looking for.

CHACHI
03-29-2011, 04:43 PM
The PROCESS~


Now we are talking. Going to see if I can find a company that does this. Sounds like what I am looking for.

Universal Plastics, Holyoke MA.

Ken

silverghost
03-29-2011, 05:35 PM
The beauty of this vaccu-forming of thermo-plastic panels is that no large press is needed at all and the wooded buck die/molds are not very costly.

There should be a company that will do this in every major city.
Most all have their own in-house die & mold shops.
They will also help you with a design that has built in-shapes to help keep the panel's rigid structure & shape.
Areas are also designed for quick & easy assembly to other panels in the complete final project hardtop.
The final color is actually in the thermo-plastic itself.
You would be surprized how cheap this can be done.
Once you make the various molds you can make as many parts as you may desire very quickly in the fuure.

Good Luck !

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-29-2011, 06:08 PM
Hey guy why not have somebody with a CNC produce you a plug to make a mold , that can produce parts made out of fiberglass , that can be very cost $$$$$ effective and built cheap with an option of being repaired if damaged .

Bamboo Loui
03-30-2011, 07:16 AM
since you are thinking of selling these as an after market part, I might suggest looking to Northern Indiana as a potential source market-- The RV industry thrives in Elkhart Indiana normally, but the town is still on its butt with the economy except for the big buck Motor homes. So--capacity is high= maybe equals decent price?
I have a small plant designing and producing molds there. Generally for RIM or Foam but they have done vac and thermo foaming tools.
The material options are pretty big for you. Vac or thermo forming may be the least expensive. No need for a 2K ton press-- just a mold.
My neighbor does prototyping in Rim but may be able to do this as well.

I'll try to post some options for you today after I call the plant for suggestions. My wifes best friend works for a vac former there-- do not know what sizes they can handle but will check.

Sweet Cheekz
03-30-2011, 07:52 AM
Problem solved Donzi net at its best

Good Luck John

Parnell

Rootsy
03-30-2011, 07:52 AM
I believe you are going to discover that with a vaccum formed / thermal formed shell that it is going to be like sitting in a tin can, especially in winter and that it will have poor rigidity. I would plan on some form of stiffening matrix within the shell. Especially where door and window openings are going to be.

Someone is going to have to design this object and if it has complex 3 dimensional shape, a solid model as well as blue prints for post processing such as trimming, cutting window openings, punching /drilling for fasteners. Would behoove you to also have some analysis of the model done to identify weak / marginal areas so you know where you need to improve it.

You are going to spend some money to do this. What's your payoff? Is there a large market outside of your own needs?

BUIZILLA
03-30-2011, 08:14 AM
does the chassis or body flex at all?

OFFSHORE GINGER
03-30-2011, 08:25 AM
Hey guy like anything else, and to be honest the initial start up cost can be very scary sometimes but just might pay off in the long run if you feel you have a market for the part .

Bamboo Loui
04-09-2011, 07:48 AM
sorry for the huge delay in locating a place in Indiana- been working tremendous hours.
Although they may not do this size of part, I am sure they know thier competitors that do.
comapny name is Plastic components in Elkhart Ind.

I called them yesterday and am stopping in to see them on Monday.

PLASTIC COMPONENTS, INC. (http://www.plasticcomponentsinc.com/)

Our expertise lies in the process of thermoforming. The PCI management team ...
www.plasticcomponentsinc.com/

Donziweasel
04-09-2011, 10:59 AM
You are going to spend some money to do this. What's your payoff? Is there a large market outside of your own needs?

Jamie, the soft top that you can get can not be towed, and too be honest, is a piece of crap. Hilldebrand is expensive and it is a half hord top half soft top. As I am planning to rent these, I need a top that can be towed on an open trailer. So, the first payoff is for me and my rental program.

As I have now been involved with Argo since December and read the chat boards, etc....there is definetly a market out there for it. All Season Argo's top is great, but they are in Alaska and the shipping would kill me. Another company, called Pioneer in British Columbia makes a plastic hard top, but it is 5000.00 without shipping.

As for rigidity, it only needs to keep the elements out. Argo's are damn near impossible to flip, so using it for safety is not a concern.


does the chassis or body flex at all?

No, very stiff.


Hey guy like anything else, and to be honest the initial start up cost can be very scary sometimes but just might pay off in the long run if you feel you have a market for the part .

I am not afraid of startup cost. I have 10,000.00 allocated to it. I honestly believe that a nice hard top made in the lower 48 for the right price will be a HUGE seller.


sorry for the huge delay in locating a place in Indiana- been working tremendous hours.
Although they may not do this size of part, I am sure they know thier competitors that do.
comapny name is Plastic components in Elkhart Ind.

I called them yesterday and am stopping in to see them on Monday.

PLASTIC COMPONENTS, INC.

Our expertise lies in the process of thermoforming. The PCI management team ...
www.plasticcomponentsinc.com/

Thanks Loui, I will look into it. I need them by December, 1, 2011.

Thank you all for the suggestions. I really appreciate it. Fixall has been working on a fiberglass company in Michigan that might be interested.

If any one has any other ideas, let me know, I am open to anything. This is not a one off run and will be a long term deal. I will need 4 of them intially for my own needs and might want 1 or 2 more for the show circuit. I have been attending alot of home and recreaation shows, etc..... People LOVE the Argo!!!! :)

I did have an Argo on a long term lease stolen in Oregon, it was recovered 3 days ago. Pretty psyched to get it back.

Bamboo Loui
04-10-2011, 07:47 AM
No problem-- I also checked with my ops manager in Elkhart and he too recommend glass for this application.
I googled parts makers in Goshen Elkhart and could not find much- I find that most of the custome glass parts houses are companies with 10 or under employees. as you know, the Goshen Elkhart area has and had alot of boat companies there at one time (starcraft, Steury, Viking, Donzi?)and now it appears the glass people left work on over the road vehicle parts or boat parts if they are directly employed in boat mfg. Easily within your size requirements if Fixx's person does not work out for you.:crossfing:

Bamboo Loui
04-10-2011, 08:15 AM
actually, I did find one place this morning


Master Fab Composites Group (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QoAIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.masterfabcomposites.com%2F&ei=QqyhTfHAK4i60QHrn9SJBQ&usg=AFQjCNFoH_hXW0sl47WnewizoAPP51P2Gw) - Place page (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=elkhart+goshen+fiberglass+parts&xhr=t&cp=37&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&wrapid=tlif130244102667110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=elkhart+goshen+fiberglass+fabricators&fb=1&gl=us&hq=goshen+fiberglass+fabricators&hnear=Elkhart,+IN&cid=15488518372234118674&ei=QqyhTfHAK4i60QHrn9SJBQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=placepage-link&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ4gkwAQ)
www.masterfabcomposites.com - 3352 Maple City Drive, Goshen

OFFSHORE GINGER
04-10-2011, 04:16 PM
D W , in my opinion your best bet would be to have somebody with a CNC fab a Plug to build a Mold and to tell you the truth i know a person here in Mich who does just that , and if you want he would even build the Plug / mold . Hey guy , once again in my opinion personally i would want full control of the parts being made and how they are built , and maybe set up a small shop in your area producing those parts other then farming them out . www.dlbarobotics.com (http://www.dlbarobotics.com) DW , these guys are in my trade mag and build Male and Female patterns,plugs , and prototyping molds and are located in V A .