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rustnrot
03-12-2011, 07:41 AM
Having worked in the nuclear industry, I am a little weak-kneed this morning upon hearing of one of the Japanese nuclear plants that was damaged in the earthquake apparently going into meltown.

Japan Nuclear Disaster -- my preliminary thoughts...by Tom Lang

I went to bed last night thinking (hoping) they might have the worst behind them as far a meltdown of any of the affected nuke plants in Japan. I was hoping the outcome would be at worst a Three Mile Island incident, i.e. partial core meltdown -- but virtually all radiation leaks to the environment contained. It now appears we may have a Chernobyl style disaster, i.e. a meltdown that has breached the containment and will contaminate a lot of real estate. Let's hope that this is isolated to just one of the reactors there, although more appear to be in great danger.

iPredict...the Nuke Power option will be off the table in this country for the foreseeable future. As a side note, prior to this I had a bet with a friend that the new nuke plant at Vogtle near Augusta, GA would NOT come on-line in our lifetimes. I was really hoping NOT to win the bet but all to well realized the political, engineering, and corruption issues that would undoubtedly delay the plant. That friend called me this morning and congratulated me on "winning" the bet.

iPredict...we will be shutting down nuke plants in this country, not all at once but each will have to be evaluated (in a panic, of course...that's how we do things in this country) to withstand bigger seismic events. All the existing nuke plants have some sort of hardened seismic engineering built-in, however, I fear we have now raised the bar and will have to strengthen (for real or political fears) existing plants for even larger quakes. That said, some older plants will be shut down permanently as it will not be economically feasible to harden them...

gcarter
03-12-2011, 08:38 AM
I dunno Tom....
Things still have to be kept in perspective.
This quake was about 100 times worse than anything we know anything about.
I think you have to factor in the probabilities of something like this happeneing again.
And it's not over yet. Let's see how this plays out.

Carl C
03-12-2011, 09:11 AM
It sounds like this Tom Lang is "predicting" things that have already happened. This country is already afraid of the cleanest, greenest, free energy source available. (as long as they are not built on fault lines and sufficiently protected from attack)

rustnrot
03-12-2011, 09:13 AM
Agreed, reports still indicating perhaps this has NOT resulted in core meltdown yet.

Unfortunately, regardless of how this turns out, even if relatively "well", politicians will dramatize it (understatement of the year -- I fear).

MOP
03-12-2011, 09:56 AM
Japan has now declared nuclear disaster at FIVE locations Strinium (Spelling) is turning up in the steam indication of fuel rod exposure! One of our top Atomic Energy people said earlier this may very well top Chernobal, he believes that is on its way to be the worst ever.

MOP
03-12-2011, 10:19 AM
It sounds like this Tom Lang is "predicting" things that have already happened. This country is already afraid of the cleanest, greenest, free energy source available. (as long as they are not built on fault lines and sufficiently protected from attack)

Curious where they may be built? Millstone in Conn is on a fault, if it goes off Long Island will be a big nothing for a very long time. New Madrid Missouri had one of the larger US quakes, the US like many other places is riddled with fault lines, many have been inactive but for how long
I am of the mind all neulear peaceful and weapon should be banned, I had a personal friendship with Sven Johnson who was one of the top Manhattan Project scientists. He was very much against nuclear advancement, he felt there would be no way to truly control it. He is the man that taught my favorite phrase "I am glad I am as old as I am". Nuclear safety has concerned me for many years, we will see how this plays out.

Carl C
03-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Curious where they may be built? Millstone in Conn is on a fault, if it goes off Long Island will be a big nothing for a very long time. New Madrid Missouri had one of the larger US quakes, the US like many other places is riddled with fault lines, many have been inactive but for how long
I am of the mind all neulear peaceful and weapon should be banned, I had a personal friendship with Sven Johnson who was one of the top Manhattan Project scientists. He was very much against nuclear advancement, he felt there would be no way to truly control it. He is the man that taught my favorite phrase "I am glad I am as old as I am". Nuclear safety has concerned me for many years, we will see how this plays out.

We have several on the Great Lakes shores and there is very little seismic activity here. They need lots of cooling water so maybe on the gulf shore? Florida is pretty stable isn't it? I would think just about anywhere there is water except for the Pacific coast.

gcarter
03-12-2011, 01:42 PM
Tom, maybe you can shed some light on this article, it almostg seems like double speak to me;

Sunday, March 13, 2011
Meltdown Caused Nuke Plant Explosion: Safety Body

TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.
The same day, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (9501) (http://www.donzi.net/e/app/ac/market/companyoverview.aspx?scode=9501), which runs the plant, began to flood the damaged reactor with seawater to cool it down, resorting to measures that could rust the reactor and force the utility to scrap it.
Cesium and iodine, by-products of nuclear fission, were detected around the plant, which would make the explosion the worst accident in the roughly 50-year history of Japanese nuclear power generation.
An explosion was heard near the plant's No. 1 reactor about 3:30 p.m. and plumes of white smoke went up 10 minutes later. The ceiling of the building housing the reactor collapsed, according to information obtained by Fukushima prefectural authorities.
At a news conference Saturday night, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano discounted the possibility of a significant leak of radioactive material from the accident. "The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode," Edano said.
The amount of radiation detected inside the plant after 4:00 p.m. slightly exceeded the dose people can safely receive in a year, according to information obtained by the Fukushima prefectural government.
The No. 1 reactor shut down automatically soon after a massive earthquake hit the area Friday, but its emergency core cooling system failed to cool the reactor's core sufficiently.
NISA is affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.

silverghost
03-12-2011, 05:43 PM
The reactor explosion sure looked pretty bad to me !

In Japan , at least at this facility . they do not have the hardened reinforced concrete reactor containment buildings that we use here at our Nuke power plants.
They also did not have a hardened containment building in the Chernobyl USSR where they also had an explosion decades ago. That USSR reactor was a different older cheaper design type than used in the USA.
I do not know which reactor design is used here in Japan..
I suspect it is of old out-dated design type; which is not as safe as we use in the USA.
I fear that the explosion and radiation fallout now in Japan is far worse than they are telling us !
The core could still be melting down~~~Not a good situation.

They are also having back-up core cooling issues at two other reactors at another facility.

I am a Licenced Professional Engineer ~~~for 30 years~~~
I did not like what I saw with the explosion of reactor #1 !
It is far more serious than has now been reported on the news !

My late uncle, also an engineer, designed many of the USA reactor containent building structures in the 70s-80s.

They sure have their hands full with multiple earthquake related problems in japan...

Back up Reactor core cooling issues,
Explosion Fallout & core melt-downs
flooding
multiple fires all over
trapped earthquake survivors
lack of food & water
,power etc.
damaged roads & bridges

What a tragic mess indeed !

mrfixxall
03-12-2011, 06:19 PM
My opinion,,i think it was a mistake dumping sea water in to cool the reactor..Electricity plus sea water which has salt in it will make hydrogen then any static electricity in a contained area will explode..

gcarter
03-12-2011, 06:34 PM
My opinion,,i think it was a mistake dumping sea water in to cool the reactor..Electricity plus sea water which has salt in it will make hydrogen then any static electricity in a contained area will explode..

Electricity isn't generated in the core, only heat.
The steam turbines are located in a different location.

silverghost
03-12-2011, 06:36 PM
The seawater might have been a problem~~~
It may have caused steam pressure~~~Very dangerous !
A thermal shock as the water turned into super-heated steam pressure~~~
But I suspect it was the only cooing water that they had on hand !
There is no electricity anywhere near the reactor core however ~~~
Just a few sensors & low voltage control circuits.

The superheated steam goes from the reactor itself to the electric generation turbines via a special high pressue heat-exchanger. The turbine/generator building is off the reactor site itself.

They should have been venting pressure all along as the reactor vessel & plumbing pressure was building-up to a critical pressure until they had an explosive systems failure !

It looked to me to have been a high excess pressure reactor vessel failure related explosion~~~ Possibly caused by super-heated cooling water steam .

Their reactor control & pressure venting systems may have been inoperative~~~
OR~~~
Some local official or company boss may have not allowed them to vent this dangerous high pressure for fear of radiation fallout and the area population !

Big Mistake~~~If this is in fact true !

We will hear the true answers~~~
Some day soon !

Let's hope they somehow get things under control~~~FAST !

DonziJon
03-12-2011, 06:50 PM
Go to Google Earth. Then at the top left of the screen..Type in: "Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant, Japan" and click the magnifying Glass Icon at the right. You will be there. Notice the cooling water discharge area...DJ

rustnrot
03-13-2011, 08:30 AM
This seems to be a good article. Over 100 psi in the containment area, wow.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111 .html

Carl C
03-13-2011, 09:15 AM
Time will tell if they are able to avert a disaster. I think they will. Let's all hope so.

McGary911
03-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Wow. Seems to be getting worse, not better.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14nuclear.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1300039354-qInP5A3leU7zi3JaqwQ8JA

Really bad news.

MOP
03-14-2011, 07:28 AM
Another one exploded, so much for clean energy. They are saying it may end up being worse than Chernobyl, they have shut all their reactors down.

rustnrot
03-14-2011, 08:42 AM
The Swiss have now "suspended approval for new nuclear plants".

I think they should put any west coast plants near the coast into safe shutdown NOW. I'm thinking particularly of the San Onofre plant between San Diego and LA right on the coast. Since we know the "Pacific Rim" fault lines are particularly active right now and this plant is very near a fault itself and right on the ocean, I would think prudent to shut it down for a few weeks until we think these aftershocks (and Tsunamis) have passed...

San Onofre -- decades old, and doubtful hardened against large Tsunamis, I bet it will be one of the first ones to be permanently decommissioned in the wake (sorry) of this.

BUIZILLA
03-14-2011, 08:48 AM
coal and railroad stocks should soar soon...

rustnrot
03-14-2011, 09:12 AM
If you read between the lines, the Obituary of the two Calif. plants on the coast is written here...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/14/earlyshow/main20042815.shtml

gcarter
03-14-2011, 11:52 AM
I read this morning that the 'quake wasn't the problem, but that the tsunami flooded the controls and backup generators, so they lost control of the reactors.
If this is true, that problem could have easily been rectified.

silverghost
03-14-2011, 12:17 PM
I agree with George~~~

These control & back-up power systems should have been designed like similar systems have always been designed on U.S. Navy Subs & Warships !

DonziJon
03-14-2011, 01:43 PM
The cooling system for the plant is like a "closed cooling" system in a boat. Fresh water..probably "de-ionized", surrounds the core, which in turn runs through a heat exchanger cooled by Raw (salt) water from the sea. We've all seen the garbage and trash floating around in the seawater that breached the seawalls.

I Wonder if the grates that strain the sea water suction got overwelmed..ie clogged. :bonk: DJ

silverghost
03-14-2011, 01:57 PM
Guys~~~Good points ~~~

I also just wonder IF they were able to lower all the control rods completely at all reactors to finally stop all the atomc reactions & let the cores slowly cool down~~~

Basically a safe shutdown.

It would thn take a long time for the reactor core to finally cool to a safe level.

Without properly operating back-up powered control & safey systems & stand-by back-up electric power, they may not have been able to do so ~~~Quickly~~~IF at all !

ALSO
Any electric utility is often very slow to give the order to completely shut down a reactor/generator & thus the power plant.

Usually a TOP boss needs to give this order !

If the core's control rods were NOT completely & quickly lowered into the safe shutdown mode position the ongoing atomic reaction and resulting high heat would continue un-abated, without proper back-up cooling, resulting in a partial or complete core rod melt-down !

A Very Dangerous Situation !

fogducker III
03-14-2011, 02:11 PM
Everybody hates a "Monday morning nuclear physicist" :doh:

I believe if this happened ANYWHERE in the world there would be the same or worse issues to deal with, personally, I think the Japanese are handling it with calm, dignity....:yes:

Does anybody see any looting or panic or chaos?????

Sweet little 16
03-14-2011, 02:23 PM
Not sure you can compare this to Chernobyl, the russians didn't have the safety or level of technology in their reactor. they basically built an aluminum bldg. around theirs. These reactors are like ours which have steel containment vessels made to contain a meltdown( if that is possible in a real world event not theorectical engineering). Hopefully they can do that but still a very dicey situation. I hope they can get it all under control for everyone's sake.

rustnrot
03-14-2011, 02:27 PM
I read this morning that the 'quake wasn't the problem, but that the tsunami flooded the controls and backup generators, so they lost control of the reactors.
If this is true, that problem could have easily been rectified.

These Japanese plants are pretty old as are nearly all of our plants, built from 1971 to 1979.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Old in this case does not mean "nonfunctional" but in what were the requirements set forth at the time to insure safety. Surely this event is outside their design basis, especially back then. They either dismissed (or were in denial) of a tsunami of this magnitude when designing the plants (and probably an earthquake of this magnitude as well) -- or, said to themselves, at the time, we don't have the technology to protect against such an event so let's forget about it and get the statisticians to tell the politicians and the population it is a 10 to the minus whatever likely-hood of happening (works every time).

The mindset was certainly different back then as to what was a credible disaster. I still think about the time I was in a meeting in the 80's or early 90's where we discussed whether to protect against an airplane hitting one of our reactors. Laughter ensued at the "ridiculousness" of the statement.

These reactors are a GE Hitachi design. We have 23 similar in this country. Those similarities may end at the main reactor building itself and hopefully not duplicity in siting emergency generators in the way of tsunamis, etc. You can be sure there will be a new "High Water Mark" going forward and retrofit of existing plants.

silverghost
03-14-2011, 02:28 PM
Sadly I do not think that when first designing these reactors & their safety & back-up systems they ever dreamed or considered such a severe natural event ever possibly happening !

I also think that these events in Japan will only give some potential terriorists some very bad ideas !
I suspect security at our atomic power plants is not at a very high level to defend against a possible determined terror group wishing to do us harm !

The world needs to learn some serious lessons fast from this tragic event !

I often thought for a long period of time that we needed more atomic power generaton plants to help with our growing US power needs; & to help free us from at least some foriegn oil usage.
I have now begun to re-evaluate my thinking a bit since this entire sad event in Japan !

My heart goes out to the good people of Japan today !

I am sure that they are dealing with these serious issues in the very best way that they can !

May WE ALL have a brighter future !

Ghost
03-14-2011, 03:35 PM
...The mindset was certainly different back then as to what was a credible disaster. I still think about the time I was in a meeting in the 80's or early 90's where we discussed whether to protect against an airplane hitting one of our reactors. Laughter ensued at the "ridiculousness" of the statement.

I'm with you--it's amazing how many lack creativity (or deliberately decieve themselves) about lots of things like this.

I can't wait to pay for a bunch of high speed railways, only to have them all running down at 80mph or less due to the completely predictable inability to secure the tracks by virtually ANY means. This has got to be one of the most blatant examples ever of a plan whose execution is dead before arrival.

gcarter
03-14-2011, 06:24 PM
Yes, I would think a plant located 1500 miles from the ocean on a large lake needn't be proofed against a tsunami!!!!!!!:)

DonziJon
03-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Well I'm not going to try and guess who on this board may or may not have been involved in the nuclear industry. I WAS involved in the 1970s..as a degreed engineer. Not bragging ....just a little background.

Nuclear power plants have been the most regulated industries in the USA. They (The Plants) were designed to withstand the most rediculous conditions the NRC could come up with...and we passed.

The Steel used in the construction of the plant and ALL the little components (which we made) had to be "Traceable" to the "Pour" at the steel plant. Every element that went into the pour had to be certifiable. All the machinery in the plant was designed to Float on a bed with certain restraints to prevent the machinery from "getting away". We designed and built that machinery.

There was a thing called LOCA...."Loss of Coolant Accident". We ..in my company..had to design everything to comply with this possability. Our company had 43 "Nuclear Stamps"...Certifications. No company in the world came close....maybe the next company had 16. Just sayin :nilly: DJ

gcarter
03-14-2011, 08:19 PM
Here's an interview of a Nuke engineer w/experience w/similar designs as the ones in Japan.
It's particularly readable and easy to understand;

http://www.cfact.org/a/1912/A-nuclear-engineers-briefing-on-the-emergency-in-Japan?utm_source=CFACT+Updates&utm_campaign=d600964d1a-Nuclear_engineer_on_Japan_emergency3_14_2011&utm_medium=email

Trueser
03-15-2011, 08:31 AM
They had 9 minutes from the time of the quake to the wave.

Nothing could have been done that quick.

BUIZILLA
03-15-2011, 08:39 AM
that whirlpool that was just offshore on shallow water intrigues the he11 out of me, i'd love to know more about that

fogducker III
03-15-2011, 09:23 AM
that whirlpool that was just offshore on shallow water intrigues the he11 out of me, i'd love to know more about that


I am not being a smart-a$$ Buiz but think of a giant toilet, the water goes in (tsunami hits) and then the water recedes.....if this happens in a large bay I would think you would get that whirlpool effect....:confused:

mike o
03-15-2011, 12:21 PM
Putting it all on the line.........:nuke::nuke::nuke:.

rustnrot
03-16-2011, 04:55 AM
At this point, it is a slap in the face to all Americans to say "full steam ahead" as if everything is still "ok".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42097170/ns/politics-more_politics/

I'll take my protest of no more nukes until we have a permanent repository for spent fuel all the way till they throw me in jail if necessary. The government charged the utilities for a permanent repository for spent fuel in Nevada that was promised to be completed by 1996. As you know, it has been delayed time and again and finally taken off the table. It is irresponsible to build any more nukes until we have a permanent place to store the waste. Heck, it is irresponsible for any engineering endeavor not to consider the entire life cycle.

Furthermore, while I'm chained to the fence, I'll be reminding us all that these nuke utilities, just like BP with the oil spill, are very limited in their liability that they must pay as the result of a disaster.


"A meltdown at the Indian Point nuclear-power station 25 miles north of New York City, they write, could eventually kill some 64,000 people - damage that they calculate at $384 billion - and inflict $50 billion to $100 billion in economic costs."The Price-Anderson act limits private liability for those costs to $375 million for an individual company, plus $12.6 billion from an industry liability pool, leaving taxpayers on the hook for the rest.


http://nationaljournal.com/economy/a-japan-reactor-repeat-in-the-united-states-could-cost-the-government-dearly-20110315


Keep in mind I'm not protesting the technology but rather the implementation of it. We need to stop kidding ourselves of the true cost of energy production.

DonziJon
03-18-2011, 03:20 PM
So the Media is all in a tizzy about radiation from Fukushima blowin in the wind to the US and maybe even Europe. I don't recall if they were all that concerned about radiation, when North Korea actually detonated a couple or three nuclear bombs in the recent past........

...........Only some concern over the North Korean dictators obnoxious attitude. :nilly: DJ

zelatore
03-18-2011, 08:42 PM
Let's see...radiation to the west coast.

I live on the west coast, so I should be worried, right?

Then how come I'm not?

Oh yeah, now I remember...

Because the ONLY people who have been making a stink about it are the talking heads on TV. EVERY scientific person I've heard speak on the topic has EXPLICITLY said there was no danger whatsoever to the US, including HI, AK, or our pacific territories.

Of course, the TV people always try to goad them into saying something scary and get all worked up about it, but the engineers have refused to play. (I'm betting they won't be getting any call-backs as they don't create enough drama).

I've been spending more time in the new Chevy with a temporary XM subscription this last week, so I've been listening to the news channels just for kicks. Fox, MSNBC, CNN, etc. It's ridiculous how the on-air personalities keep trying to over-exaggerate everything and trying to get their guests to make equally dire predictions even though they just said there was no need to panic.

These people....:nilly:

MOP
03-19-2011, 07:05 AM
I surely do not believe that all the plants were constructed properly, an example is the Shoreham nuclear power plant out here on Long Island 100% approved by the NRC. Shortly before it was to go into service records of the construction were found in a local dump, there was proof of organized crime involvement with the labor unions. The highly trusted NRC had approved the plant! Google it you will with a little digging find the info, the NRC cannot be trusted! Makes me and should make all of you think about the safety of plants nation wide, do you think the crime boys only operate in New York! Crime and the unions is synonymous, don't kid your selves into believing that all plants are safe. Much of the story had faded or been buried to protect the the NRC but the facts are still out there! http://www.google.com/search?q=shoreham+nuclear+power+plant+records+foun d+in+cutchogue+dump&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

roadtrip se
03-19-2011, 10:52 AM
I grew up in the shadows of Davis Besse and the Fermi plants on Lake Erie. Those things can't burp without a major to-do in the media.

But let me get this straight, if someone from the North Korean Mafia approaches us wanting to build a nuclear power plant, we should probably deny the application?

MOP
03-19-2011, 12:50 PM
I grew up in the shadows of Davis Besse and the Fermi plants on Lake Erie. Those things can't burp without a major to-do in the media.

But let me get this straight, if someone from the North Korean Mafia approaches us wanting to build a nuclear power plant, we should probably deny the application?

Todd I surely expected more from you, your knowledge is usually above average and impeccable. The "NRC" is the "Nuclear Regulatory Commission". Take the time to read the link, there you will find all the proof anyone needs. The NRC like the rest of the Government cannot be trusted when it comes to the peoples interests, line their pockets they will! There are more than obvious links between the power groups, of that none of us has any doubt whatsoever!

roadtrip se
03-19-2011, 01:27 PM
Todd I surely expected more from you, your knowledge is usually above average and impeccable. The "NRC" is the "Nuclear Regulatory Commission". Take the time to read the link, there you will find all the proof anyone needs. The NRC like the rest of the Government cannot be trusted when it comes to the peoples interests, line their pockets they will! There are more than obvious links between the power groups, of that none of us has any doubt whatsoever!

MOP, I was poking at you and Jon with my "NKM" comment. I don't doubt that there has been some stuff happen at the NRC over the years, it's a government agency after all, but the North Koreans and graft in the NRC really don't have much to do with what is going on in Japan right now. No one could have anticipated what went down there, and all we can do now is pray they get it contained and help them any way we can to do so. As someone said earlier here, Monday Morning Nuclear Engineering isn't all that productive at this point, especially with all of the potential implications of this disaster..

BaldEagle
03-20-2011, 09:40 AM
Here this may help every ones understanding of the process and this failure.

Jeff