1969 2+3 gas tank

[bookm]

Greetings,
My 18' Classic V-drive 454 has a strong gas smell from under the deck. My marina mechanic has replaced all lines, checked the filter and flow meter connections, replaced the filler hose and says the filler & sensor connections are tight. He suspects a pinhole in the tank, which is OEM.

I desperately do not want to remove the deck to replace the tank. Has anyone given thought to tanks on the outside of the stringers, midboat? There's plenty of room and, if I keep the capacities resonable, I should be able to squeeze in tanks in both sides without tearing up the floor, while increasing my fuel storage.

I think I can compensate for any changes in hull attributes with my tabs, but would appreciate any thoughts on my potential project, including where I might look for suitable tanks.

Thx.

[hardcrab]

strong gas smell = not good

your tank has surpassed it's life expectancy

lifting the deck ain't the end of the world

[Just Say N20]

While it seems over whelming to contemplate separating the hull/deck, if you have the facilities, it isn't that big of a project.

I'm trying to envision how adding side tanks would be less of a project than replacing the original tank.:confused:

And you should check to see if your original tank is foamed into place. If it is, and there is a pin-hole in the tank, there is going to be gas in the foam for a l-o-n-g time.

I didn't want to separate my hull deck either. . . .

Track down KirbyV. He recently replaced his tank, and he might be able to give you some insights into the project.

[gcarter]

lifting the deck ain't the end of the world

In fact it's pretty easy to do.
Here's a couple of threads on doing so;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36703

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476

And here's a thread on putting in a 42 gallon tank into a 18 barrelback.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476

Something that helps a lot is to get the boat off the trailer and lower it.

[Buddyc]

In fact it's pretty easy to do.
Here's a couple of threads on doing so;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36703

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476

And here's a thread on putting in a 42 gallon tank into a 18 barrelback.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50476

Something that helps a lot is to get the boat off the trailer and lower it.

Hey George,
I just went thru the 62 pages of your build... You have the making of a good book... Keep up the great work

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Hey guy removing the deck ....will and can be a walk in the park considering the size of the boat ,and to tell you the truth i have to agree with N20 on adding side tanks if they would be less of a project then replacing the original tank .:eek:

[hardcrab]

a larger single tank would be the better choice.

less plumbing too.

[Buddyc]

Want to see what a tank looks like that came out of my 66? Its amazing it could hold anything
http://www.jarootfarms.com/photogallery/albums/1966%2018%20Restoration/normal_1966%20C18105%20%28290%29.JPG

[hardcrab]

Want to see what a tank looks like that came out of my 66? Its amazing it could hold anything


DAMN ! When I replaced my septic tank. it looked better than that !

[gcarter]

You have to get the old tank and foam out of the boat.
It's an old boat and other stuff will need your attention while it's apart.
The single tank is really the only way to go. The tank foamed into the belly really strengthens the bottom.
If you want to add aditional tanks, go ahead.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

DAMN ! When I replaced my septic tank. it looked better than that !:lol9:

[Buddyc]

DAMN ! When I replaced my septic tank. it looked better than that !
Now that was funny!!!

[bookm]

I'll tell ya, George. I had already been through your thread on replacing the tank before I posted this issue. I was doing alright until I got to the 200 T-nuts and fasteners, when I decided there had to be an easier way to do accomplish this mission. Admittedly,after many years in homicide I have a great respect for large balls of yellow fire in small spaces. So, I have to do something. It seems, if I leave the original tank in place, the structural integrity of the hull shouldn't be affected. I'm still thinking this through, but lifting the floor boards, if necessary, has got to be a lot easier than removing the deck.

Thanks to everybody for responding. I've never tried a project like this, so it's a little daunting, to say the least.

I'd welcome any other comments.

[hardcrab]

bookm - taking what may seem to be a shortcut by cutting the floor will result in a lot of reconstruction effort. It won't be less work.

Lifting the deck will expose the entire hull and underside of the deck, You'll be able to access everything stem to stern. More bang for the buck.

[DAULEY]

i had the tank in my 1969 16 done it cost me 800 plus the cost of the tank that was about 400 that was in 2002
there must be a good boat shop near you get a price CHEEP INSURANCE

[bookm]

Thanks, guys. I haven't approached my marina people, yet. Trying to keep the cost down, of course. I need hull paint and repair to the crazing cracks one expects on a 42 year old boat.

Much obliged for the input.

[Buddyc]

Thanks, guys. I haven't approached my marina people, yet. Trying to keep the cost down, of course. I need hull paint and repair to the crazing cracks one expects on a 42 year old boat.

Much obliged for the input.

If your going to get into paint and all I would remove the deck, then you can clean up the bilge and see any other issues that may raise thier heads... Just my .2cents

[bookm]

You're probaby right.

[72Hornet]

I helped a buddy do his 1966 18 Classic two winters ago in his garage. It was not as vaunting as you would think! The pictures of the tank in the earlier post were what his tank looked like. There is no way that I would have run the boat any longer. I also did not want to ruin the boat by cutting into the floor. IMO, that would have been alot more work. I had Rayco build a new tank for me after sending them detailed drawings of the tank that we removed. There are so many members on this board that will help you through this process. You can do it!

[Just Say N20]

The floor doesn't lift up. The deck, and cockpit tub are one piece. Getting the floor up would mean cutting it out.

This would be not great to do from a structural standpoint, because the front seat fasten to the floor, so there is a lot of stress on the floor.

Also, in my 16, the cockpit was (originally) glassed to the stringers to help form a solid bond between the deck and hull.

[bookm]

All sage advice, and very much appreciated. As my baby is now buttoned up and stored for the winter, I'm going to look for the photos I took a couple of years ago when my V-drive committed suicide, because I can't recall exactly where the floor is supported.

My original plan called for SS tanks, similar to the one I have on my '29 street rod, which would lie outboard of the stringers on each side. Sounded good at the time.

Obviously, more research is needed.

Once, again, thanks for your responses.

[LKSD]

Cutting the floor or adding a side tank in the boat is not the best way to go. It could also be construed as a hack job. Replacing the tank in the conventional location would be the preferential way to go.

No need for SS tanks, epoxy coated aluminum. Also for some reason If I remember correctly the SS tanks are a no no for foamed in applications. Also I know that according to the USCG that if you use stainless for your tank you will be limited to 20 gallons and the tank shape must be cylindrical and domed on both ends.

Either way I dont see the stainless working for you. The majority of the time I do see a stainless tank is in a clamped in version on a hot boat or a classic wooden boat & the tank size has not exceeded 20 gallons.

If you dont want to use aluminum then your only other viable route would be a plastic/composite tank. However the capacity of a custom aluminum tank will likely be a little better as you can take advantage of the space a little better.

I would replace that tank you have though as any fuel permeation in there is bad to have and can be classified as unsafe. Also all of the other reasons already mentioned by others for removing the deck and replacing the tank to check and address any other issues may find also are pertinent.

Unfortunatley some of the things like this are part of having and experiencing the old or classic boat ownership experience if you will.. lol However on the bright side, if you replace the boat's tank the right way and go thru it to correct any issues you will benefit in a few ways. You will be safer, it will likely be more reliable and the boat would be of more value and easier to sell should you want to part with it in the future.

Hope this helps you.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[Bobby D]

IMO take the time and do it rite, contact Kirby (great guy) he replaced his last year and also took the opportunity to work on other things that were easy to get to once the deck was removed. He now has an awesome boat with a properly prepared and installed tank that will last a life time.

[Buddyc]

Thanks to Rootsy for doing the great job. Remember the pic of that nasty old tank... Here is the replacement.
http://www.jarootfarms.com/photogallery/albums/1966%2018%20Restoration/normal_1966%20C18105%20%28575%29.JPG

[gcarter]

I'll tell ya, George. I had already been through your thread on replacing the tank before I posted this issue. I was doing alright until I got to the 200 T-nuts and fasteners, .

The Tee nuts do take awhile to install, but they do make it a "one man" operation of making a permanent job of screwing the boat together. The old wood strips screw holes wallow out after a few decades and the rub rail screws won't stay tight.
I think on the TR I'm going to use less of them....maybe just in the area of the cockpit and up in the bow. The rest will take two people but I'll use SST oval head machine screws, fender washers and SST lock nuts.

[scippy]

[quote=gcarter;590604]The Tee nuts do take awhile to install, but they do make it a "one man" operation of making a permanent job of screwing the boat together. The old wood strips screw holes wallow out after a few decades and the rub rail screws won't stay tight.
quote]


George, I'm finding the same problem with the wood strip to my boat's hull/deck joint. Apparently, the many attempts that have been made for a proper bite to secure the rubrail has left many elongated holes. I was thinking of marrying the hull/deck joint by fiberglassing then together.......Could the Tee nut thing be a one step solution to both the "Hull/deck" issue and "rubrail" attachment.
bookm.............Sorry for the hijack!

[LKSD]

[quote=gcarter;590604]The Tee nuts do take awhile to install, but they do make it a "one man" operation of making a permanent job of screwing the boat together. The old wood strips screw holes wallow out after a few decades and the rub rail screws won't stay tight.
quote]


George, I'm finding the same problem with the wood strip to my boat's hull/deck joint. Apparently, the many attempts that have been made for a proper bite to secure the rubrail has left many elongated holes. I was thinking of marrying the hull/deck joint by fiberglassing then together.......Could the Tee nut thing be a one step solution to both the "Hull/deck" issue and "rubrail" attachment.
bookm.............Sorry for the hijack!

Peter,

If you didnt want to use the nuts like George did you do have a couple other options.

You could marry the deck to the hull. It is usually called "caping" it, It is pretty snazzy looking when done right. Some boats have done it & eliminated using a rub rail. The draw back is if you ever need to take that deck off it will be a lot more work & aggravation.

Or

You may rather attempt replacing the strip from inside if your boat is currently gutted. However if the wood strip is not rotted you may want to inject the holes with thickened west epoxy. It would fill them and be rather strong allowing you to get a grip with new fasteners.. Again that would be assuming the wooden strip going around the joint is not all rotted or in really sad shape.. ;)

Hope it helps.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[gcarter]

[quote=gcarter;590604]The Tee nuts do take awhile to install, but they do make it a "one man" operation of making a permanent job of screwing the boat together. The old wood strips screw holes wallow out after a few decades and the rub rail screws won't stay tight.
quote]


George, I'm finding the same problem with the wood strip to my boat's hull/deck joint. Apparently, the many attempts that have been made for a proper bite to secure the rubrail has left many elongated holes. I was thinking of marrying the hull/deck joint by fiberglassing then together.......Could the Tee nut thing be a one step solution to both the "Hull/deck" issue and "rubrail" attachment.
bookm.............Sorry for the hijack!

Yes, I used two different sized Tee nuts. #10 for the rail and 1/4" for the hull decck. But that was my choice. It could all be done w/#10's.

[maddad]

It may be cheating a bit, but I took the rub rail off tightened the screws and put just the rubrail back on with machinescrew/locknut/washer combo. At the end of the season the rail and deck/hull joint were tighter than the end of any other season. As tight as they were when I first did it.

[scippy]

[quote=scippy;590629]

Peter,

If you didnt want to use the nuts like George did you do have a couple other options.

You could marry the deck to the hull. It is usually called "caping" it, It is pretty snazzy looking when done right. Some boats have done it & eliminated using a rub rail. The draw back is if you ever need to take that deck off it will be a lot more work & aggravation.

Or

You may rather attempt replacing the strip from inside if your boat is currently gutted. However if the wood strip is not rotted you may want to inject the holes with thickened west epoxy. It would fill them and be rather strong allowing you to get a grip with new fasteners.. Again that would be assuming the wooden strip going around the joint is not all rotted or in really sad shape.. ;)

Hope it helps.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

Jamie,

Capping!!..............now that sounds like a real solution!.......My fuel tank replacement (if ever needed) does not require a 'deck off" de-rig like most classics do soooo, even a better Idea for this......... Am I right to assume that the fiberglassing of the hull & deck is done from the inside of the boat and the outside area is more or less cosmetic?

Also,
The wood strip is not rotted, but it's highly unlikely I would get a good bite due to the many holes.........I like the idea of injecting with epoxy. These are Two very good approaches ...............Thanks

[bookm]

Jamie, I'm finding a lot of plastic tanks that would fit under my floor. But, I got to thinking about that drive shaft whirling 5-6K on the other side of those stringers and taking a hike through one of those tanks.

I keep going over George's project, and it all makes sense. I'm handy, and I have the space and tools, but damn that's that's a lot of work.

Let's assume, after a few more beers, I decide to go with the whole enchilada. Where's the best place to go for a new, and larger, tank? The 454 eats like like my first wife. 25 just isn't enough.

[hardcrab]

RDS manufacturing Inc,
300 Industrial Park Dr.
Perry Fla 32348

www.rdsaluminum.com
1-800-292-6898

[bookm]

Thank you, sir.

[LKSD]

[quote=LKSD;590632]

Jamie,

Capping!!..............now that sounds like a real solution!.......My fuel tank replacement (if ever needed) does not require a 'deck off" de-rig like most classics do soooo, even a better Idea for this......... Am I right to assume that the fiberglassing of the hull & deck is done from the inside of the boat and the outside area is more or less cosmetic?

Also,
The wood strip is not rotted, but it's highly unlikely I would get a good bite due to the many holes.........I like the idea of injecting with epoxy. These are Two very good approaches ...............Thanks

Peter,

The main structural glassing can be done from the inside after the proper prepwork has been done. However you will still end up, or at least if would be advisable to do a little light glassing on the outer end before fairing.

Epoxy resin would be nice to use here as well for the added strength with cloth that you would use. It would help to keep it all in place and reduce any chance at it shifting in the future allowing a crack or seam to come thru. This would be optimal if you were looking to NOT use or install a rubrail when you were done. Like if you wanted a smooth seamless body.

That said if you are still wanting a rub rail you can maybe just do the appropriate glaswork inside & then lightly bond the outer seams with epoxy. This would allow you to reinstall a rub rail in a stock looking fashion.

I say this as you may want to keep with the rubrail set up. Mainly because A smooth cap without a body line makes it more difficult to know where to mount a rub rail, not to mention it may not look right over certain seamless caps. Beyond that you may want to retain a rubrail as a means of a bumper or buffer of sorts when launching or docking. With out a rail you may be more prone to getting scratches and what not if you are not very careful.

Hope it helps.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[LKSD]

Jamie, I'm finding a lot of plastic tanks that would fit under my floor. But, I got to thinking about that drive shaft whirling 5-6K on the other side of those stringers and taking a hike through one of those tanks.

I keep going over George's project, and it all makes sense. I'm handy, and I have the space and tools, but damn that's that's a lot of work.

Let's assume, after a few more beers, I decide to go with the whole enchilada. Where's the best place to go for a new, and larger, tank? The 454 eats like like my first wife. 25 just isn't enough.

Yes, how you will use the boat, your average fuel consumption and thinking of all of this ahead sure dont hurt.

Sometimes in some applications you can custom build a little bit of a larger tank. It is mainly comes down to space when you are working within the original space confines. Also on some you can redesign things a bit and move some items a little if you are into the glass work thing. If not & if you are not up to speed with how much you can alter things, it would be better left to staying with a stock type set up with new materials..

We also offer tanks including custom built ones. If need be we can also do the install. We have replaced several in Donzi's and other boats over the years. :)

:) Jamie / Lakeside

[gcarter]

Let's assume, after a few more beers, I decide to go with the whole enchilada. Where's the best place to go for a new, and larger, tank? The 454 eats like like my first wife. 25 just isn't enough.

The tank I installed into the 18 Barrelback is the 41 gallon RDS tank.
Like Jamie said, what you need to do is find out how much space the Vee Drive requires and how much tank you can install. Tidbart (Bob Wilson) has the RDS 41 gallon tank drawing. Maybe he'll see this and post it. It's also posted here elsewnere. You might do a search.
On my Minx, I had RDS add 1" to the top and I gained about 5 gallons capacity.

[gcarter]

[quote=bookm;590646] I keep going over George's project, and it all makes sense. I'm handy, and I have the space and tools, but damn that's that's a lot of work. quote]

Think of it as an adventure! :nilly:
You'll find out pretty quickly, it's not as hard as it would seem.
I felt almost overwhelmed w/the prospect until I thought it through many times.

[Tidbart]

Here is the drawing of the RDS 41g. tank.

Bob

[yeller]

I'm handy, and I have the space and tools...Then you could do it easily.

A lot of guys will say...."just do it! It's easy", and it turns out to be a nightmare job, and it is easy for them because they are masters at what they do.

That's not the case here. Pulling the deck really isn't as hard as you think. I pulled the deck on mine and I thought the same as you before I started....too much work. Turns out it was a lot easier than I thought. All I had to do on mine was disconnect the gauges, remove the throttle control, back out the rub rail screws and remove the rub rail, back out the deck/hull bonding screws, break the seal between deck and hull......and pull the deck off.

All the wiring and cables were attached to the hull, so I didn't have to do anything about that.
If your wiring/cables are attached to the deck, then you'll have some extra work, but still easily doable...will just take a bit longer.

After doing it once, I'm positive I could re & re the deck in a weekend if I did it again.

[gcarter]

Years ago, there was a thread about a weekend project......
Actually, they just raised the bow by tying the bow section of the deck from a tree!!!!!!!
Seriously, if you had everyting ready, it could be done in one day. But what's the point? There's always other things to do. One thing that should seriously be considered is to completely re-wire the boat as the old wire and the practices of the day leave a lot to be desired.

[Kirbyvv]

I haven't been around here in a while, but I replaced my tank last year. I had never done anything like this before and went into it with alot of stress. While it took me way longer than a weekend, it wasn't too bad. The big thing is the facilities to lift the deck off. I used a fork lift at a friends shop and then did the rest in my driveway at home. Take the deck off and do it right. You won't be sorry in the end.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61917&highlight=gas+tank+replacement

I ended up rewiring, doing some glass work, removed all the old foam floatation, painted the entire inside of the hull, etc. My original was a Florida Marine Tank, they still had the design sheets. I had them modify the sender location to make sure it lined up with the access hole. It was a bear to get the sender in and out of the original tank.