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VancouverMark
02-08-2011, 01:21 PM
Hey guys

I was wondering if I should wax the bottom of my Z33 ? There is no bottom paint on it right now, but it will spend the summer moored in a saltwater slip. I will use it every other day at least and I have a great spot to take her to scrub the bottom myself (underwater). I was wondering if there is a good product to do the bottom with that may help with speed and prevent growth, r at least makes it easier to scrub growth off.

I would consider bottom paint if I can get some in white that won't kill my speed.

Thanks
Mark

Tidbart
02-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Waxing the bottom won't make you go any faster, may even slow you down a bit. Clean the bottom with something like Amazing Roll-off. Spray on, light brush, rinse off. Helps retard future growth.

Just noticed you said you will leave it in salt. Consider bottom paint and make sure your zincs are in order.

B

Ghost
02-08-2011, 05:38 PM
I'd wax it just to minimize the slow accumulation of brown haze in the gel on the bottom, and to make it easy to keep the waterline clean as well. FAR less Fiberglass Stain Remover after the season if you do.

Whatever difference in speed (faster or slower) occurs seems COMPLETELY unmeasurable in my experience, but that's only up to 55MPH. Things are more sensitive as speeds increase.

gcarter
02-08-2011, 05:49 PM
Is there a lot of growth in that cold water?
I would imagine it would be less than our 85* water.

MOP
02-08-2011, 07:36 PM
Smooth surfaces are slower! A smooth surface creates a stiction layer, look at a golf ball the early smooth ones flew about 30% less distance then the ones of today. Stars and Strips Americas cup boat that sailed in Australia picked up 2/10the of a knot applying Boeing rivulets to the bottom. Roll Off (mentioned above)trailer bunk spray may very well do the job, it leaves a slightly rough surface and has Teflon which should help to keep it clean.

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-08-2011, 07:54 PM
Hey guy in fact you will gain speed by sanding the bottom . I gotta say that when i worked at Skater there were a whole lot of old school racers that wanted Teflon on the bottom of there boats which really was a waste of Money, and when ever i did the blueprinting of Sailboats we sprayed a white primer made in Europe finished of in #1000 grit or what ever the customer wanted .

MOP
02-08-2011, 08:22 PM
The last third of my trailer queen was sanded with #220, I knew of sanding from years of sail boat racing.

OFFSHORE GINGER
02-08-2011, 08:42 PM
The last third of my trailer queen was sanded with #220, I knew of sanding from years of sail boat racing. I , have done the same which as alway's has been the customer's option on what grit he wants the hull left in ........because Sailor's (Sail - Boaters ) can be a very rare breed . Just my 2 Cent's

smidgen too
02-08-2011, 08:53 PM
Back in the day Scatt was a favorite product of Magnum owners here on Lake St Clair. They say it makes your boat faster and cuts down on marine growth in fresh water.... h2o Mark
http://www.boatersland.com/scatt.html

Dr. David Fleming
02-08-2011, 11:09 PM
Scatt bottom treatment is still available at Mikes Marine Supply - EPA seems to be after it though. Have seen it seriously retard bottom growth on boats left in fresh water Lake St. Clair canal system. Not sure what effect it has on speed - local marinas will not do rack storage to Scatt treated boats as they fall off the fork lift truck too easily. I did Google it and find it but since I do rack storage of the Donzi decided to pass on testing it.

LKSD
02-09-2011, 01:05 PM
There did used to be an antifouling wax that one of my vendors used to offer. It just gave a satin looking finish to the bottom of the boat I tried it on. The nice thing was it was removable, unlike paint. It helped to retard marine growth if you left it in and it you could just wipe it with a brush while swimming around it and clean off the bottom quite easily.. Unfortunately I have not seen it available for a few years now.

However there is an antifouling boat paint that is made in white. It is a vivid white and it has a eggshell/satin semi gloss like appearance when it is applied and dries. It looks rather nice for bottom paint. We have been using it for years with great success on bottom painted hulls. If that would interest you feel free to give me a shout.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

The Hedgehog
02-09-2011, 09:24 PM
Interlux makes a paint with teflon. It did not impact the speed of my boat (at the time) at all.

I am with Ghost. No big differences at 55. You can wet sand or do whatever. I could see a slight benefit on displacement hulls or really fast stuff.

I would dig around to see if you could find that stuff that Jamie was mentioning.

zelatore
02-09-2011, 09:44 PM
I know it's colder water than we have here in SF bay, but there's NO WAY I'd leave a boat in a slip all summer without bottom paint. Even if you're using it regularly, you're going to get growth.

But more important than growth, I'd worry about the drive. You'll be in a slip, which means other boats with unknown electrical conditions as well as possibly poor electrical on the docks. More times than I can remember I've seen drives eaten alive in less than a season by a hot (electrically) boat sitting a few slips down from them. And look as close as you want in the water, but you're going to have a hard time seeing the start of corrosion without pulling the boat out and washing the drive. Ask MOP - he's an old salt water guy with plenty of experience; I bet he's got plenty of horror stories of his own.

If you were on a mooring out by yourself I'd be much less worried about corrosion, though I'd still worry about growth.

Ideally, I'd try to find a hydro-hoist to keep her in. Scan craigslist or the local boating rags; I bet you can find a used 5000 lb lift pretty reasonably. They're easy to use and eliminate the growth/corrosion problems completely.

MOP
02-09-2011, 10:04 PM
No matter what the speed range is, when you break the stiction layer you reduce drag. True the end result is higher top end but also less power needed at all speeds.

MOP
02-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Quote: Mr. Zel! We had a 440 cable laid 3 feet down running parallel to the docks, when they were laying I pitched a fit that it was not laid in screened sand. I am guessing 5-6 years later we had some serious burn starting, well who was going to dig nearly a 1000 feet of cable up! We ended up having to call in a company that used a machine called a "Thumper" all circuits were cut then they hooked up. By sending shocks through the cable and then using a gizzy like a metal detector found the break, turned out one small sharp stone damaged the cable. That was about 5 years before they redid the whole thing with shielding and sand. Seems like most all marinas bury their power cables, many of which have or will go through what we did. Ok the after rant! We ended up replacing a lot of gear cases, props and much more. I found pinked rudders, shafts and hull fittings for many years after.

VancouverMark
02-10-2011, 11:38 AM
Ok, so it looks like I should be using a white bottom paint.

I also need to put some Zincs on my K Planes and drives because there are some old crappy boats nearby my slip.

Anything else I should do?

Where exactly should I put zincs? I am raw water cooled. I am considering getting fresh water cooling systems if I can find some used ones on craigslist.

zelatore
02-10-2011, 11:51 AM
I'll suggest it again -

If you can find one, I'd rather invest the money in a used hydro hoist. With that, you ELIMINATE any worries about bottom growth or corrosion entirely!

I'd bet a used hydro hoist (or other brand) could be found for about the cost of 2-3 year's maintenance on the bottom paint and underwater metal on the boat. Plus it makes it easy to see the condition of your bottom when it's out, or change props, or whatever you might want to do. And of course you can always sell it later if you decide you don't want to keep the boat in it. And you don't have to worry about bottom paint (or growth) slowing you down any or any potential resale concerns about bottom paint.

I know used lifts are fairly common here in the bay area and delta. I would think you could find them in your area as well. They're a little bit of a PITA to transport and assemble, but nothing a reasonably handy guy with a friend or two can't handle.

mrfixxall
02-10-2011, 12:31 PM
I'll suggest it again -

If you can find one, I'd rather invest the money in a used hydro hoist. With that, you ELIMINATE any worries about bottom growth or corrosion entirely!

I'd bet a used hydro hoist (or other brand) could be found for about the cost of 2-3 year's maintenance on the bottom paint and underwater metal on the boat. Plus it makes it easy to see the condition of your bottom when it's out, or change props, or whatever you might want to do. And of course you can always sell it later if you decide you don't want to keep the boat in it. And you don't have to worry about bottom paint (or growth) slowing you down any or any potential resale concerns about bottom paint.

I know used lifts are fairly common here in the bay area and delta. I would think you could find them in your area as well. They're a little bit of a PITA to transport and assemble, but nothing a reasonably handy guy with a friend or two can't handle.


+1

The only bottom that get's waxed around here is the ole lady's :kingme:


hydro hoist..

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/12_000_lb_b_style_hydro_hoist-o38001-en.html

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/hydro_hoist-o30540-en.html

or buy new!

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/poly_lift_boat_lifts_3_000_to_40_000_lbs_capacity-o37212-en.html

Morgan's Cloud
02-10-2011, 12:53 PM
As a last resort , if you do have to paint the bottom , I can verify that the Pettit Vivid white is very effective. And if you do that , then do it properly and epoxy barrier coat first .
Over the last 40+ years , I've tried every white bottom paint there was and oh how I wish I had somehow been able to stockpile the old TBT based ones.
I've tried an Interlux white with teflon in it and was dissappointed at how it performed. It is now not available for some reason and I will have to remove all of it (because of the teflon) before I can use anything else.
For the time being I'm sticking with the Pettit white . Because it works well and it has nothing in it that makes it unfriendly to overcoating with something different should it too become unavailable at some point in the future .

VancouverMark
02-10-2011, 01:01 PM
My Marina does not allow hydrohoist :confused:

zelatore
02-10-2011, 05:08 PM
My Marina does not allow hydrohoist :confused:

Why the heck not? I can only guess they've had some bad expereince with some installers as it's possible on some models to install them so that they really tweek the dock fingers when down.

You might ask if you can have a free-floating unit. Some models don't attach to the dock at all, other than with a couple lines to cleats just like a boat. Then you need to install 2 screws to secure the control box. That's about it.

Or find a new marina!

VancouverMark
02-10-2011, 06:03 PM
I just am at the boat show and those Hydro Hoist are about $12-16K depending on the brand.

My marina just does not allow then, no idea why. And in Vancouver where we pay $20-25/ft/mth, and where marina space is hung onto like your first born, you don't argue :nilly:

zelatore
02-10-2011, 10:00 PM
I just am at the boat show and those Hydro Hoist are about $12-16K depending on the brand.

My marina just does not allow then, no idea why. And in Vancouver where we pay $20-25/ft/mth, and where marina space is hung onto like your first born, you don't argue :nilly:

I know they don't come cheep new, which is why I figured you could find a used one for $3 to 5K depending on size/options/etc.

I guess it's a moot point if you can't have one at the marina. I know how some harbor masters are - they're like the small-town cops I grew up with - king of their little fiefdom and they rule with an iron fist!

With a lift out of the picture, you'll want to paint. I haven't tried the Vivid that was suggested, but I've heard good things about it. If you're serious about keeping her in the water, a good epoxy barrier coat is worth considering as well, though it'll cost you a few bucks.

As for zincs, you'll want probably a 3" disk for each trim tab if they don't have them already. You could get away with splitting them and only putting the disk on the top part of the tab to eliminate a tiny bit of drag, but I doubt you'll see any performance difference. Not sure what drives you have, but typically you'll have a zinc at the end of each trim ram, a prop nut, the little trim skeg (you can get these as just a flat plate), and a plate that bolts to the transom assembly at the base. You can get them all separately, or as a kit for about $50.

With raw water cooling, I doubt you have any engine zincs. If you were to convert to fresh water (a great thing, but with xxx hrs already on the boat there's some question about the value of doing so unless you're rebuilding/repowering).

It would be worth installing a flush system that you can use at the dock. You won't be able to get the water out of the drives of course, but you could at least flush the engines. That would be minimal cost and well worth doing.

BTW, just had to say it again - great looking boat. I love those lines!

zelatore
02-10-2011, 10:07 PM
You'll also want to keep a close eye on the condition of your drives and tabs. Any little scratch in the drive paint will start to blister and corrode faster than you expect. You can ruin a case pretty fast if you're not watching.

On the tabs, watch for crevice corrosion, particularly around the screws holding them to the hull and near the hinge. I've had TONS of problems with Bennett tabs rotting at the docks, then the owner takes off and the tab rips right off the boat, usually damaging the ram(s) at the same time. Bennett seems to ship their tabs with crap-grade s/s mounting screws. I bet I've seen 200 OEM Bennett tab screws with the heads rotted off.

I don't want to scare you - 1000's of people keep stern drive equipped boats in salt 24/7. You just have to stay on top of the maintenance or you'll find out what a new drive and transom assembly cost a lot sooner than you want! (at which point you'll be ever so glad you don't have a Volvo Duo-prop - I've seen people throw away perfectly good boats because they couldn't afford to replace a duo-prop drive package)

VancouverMark
02-10-2011, 10:15 PM
Hey Thanks Don!!

I plan on putting in Flush Systems for sure. That with the Zincs should do the trick.

I talked directly with the Interlux paint Rep at the Boat Show today and he told me NOT to paint my bottom. He figures with the amount I use my boat, (5 days a week) and if I keep up on the scrubbing I should be ok. He said, once it is on, its on!!

M

yeller
02-11-2011, 01:46 AM
I'm not an expert, and I never really looked much into it because I've never moored a boat before....but it's my understanding that you don't just need bottom paint to inhibit growth, you need it to stop the gel from absorbing water.

I'm sure Zelatore will know if that's true or not.


Despite what the Interlux rep says, if I was mooring a boat, I'd bottom paint. Do you really want to be swimming in that water year round (or pay someone) to clean the hull? I can't see bottom paint slowing you down. Maybe....and just maybe....1mph.

VancouverMark
02-11-2011, 08:54 AM
I'm not an expert, and I never really looked much into it because I've never moored a boat before....but it's my understanding that you don't just need bottom paint to inhibit growth, you need it to stop the gel from absorbing water.

I'm sure Zelatore will know if that's true or not.


Despite what the Interlux rep says, if I was mooring a boat, I'd bottom paint. Do you really want to be swimming in that water year round (or pay someone) to clean the hull? I can't see bottom paint slowing you down. Maybe....and just maybe....1mph.

I'm not really worries about slowing me down, it is more the look. Bottom paint is ugly stuff!! Plus once it is on, it's in there. If I sell the boat sometime, it may not be a popular thing.:confused:

HIGH LIFE
02-11-2011, 09:34 AM
VancouverMark, A couple of items you should check before you launch your boat, make sure all of the ground wires on your drives & transom are in place + have good ground - you can take it off and use sandpaper to clean the ends ! Also I would put a block of ZINC app. 12" x 6" x 3/4" on the transom. I had a 35' MAGNUM in a slip, sold it the new owner had a slip app. 100' away where I kept mine - my zincs lasted the whole season ( salt water, Boston,Ma.) I was on his boat and after app. 2 months and his zincs were almost gone ! This boat had a copper bonding stripe connecting all metal in the bilge and connected to the ground batteries. Good luck controling electrocise ( sp) "HIGH LIFE"

yeller
02-11-2011, 04:46 PM
I'm not really worries about slowing me down, it is more the look. Bottom paint is ugly stuff!! Plus once it is on, it's in there. If I sell the boat sometime, it may not be a popular thing.:confused:
I agree, it can be ugly....but if you can get it in white I bet you'd hardly notice it. As for selling, well that's a guessing game. Where you live, bottom paint could very well be an asset. There's not a huge hi-performance boat crowd in Vancouver and in my opinion bottom paint doesn't carry a bad stigma. I'm from Van, but that's only my opinion.

You can always drop it in the water and if the cleaning becomes too much of a hassle, paint it later.

zelatore
02-11-2011, 06:22 PM
I agree, it can be ugly....but if you can get it in white I bet you'd hardly notice it. As for selling, well that's a guessing game. Where you live, bottom paint could very well be an asset. There's not a huge hi-performance boat crowd in Vancouver and in my opinion bottom paint doesn't carry a bad stigma. I'm from Van, but that's only my opinion.

You can always drop it in the water and if the cleaning becomes too much of a hassle, paint it later.


I think he's got the right idea.

If you are REALLY going to use it every other day, you'll keep the growth down. I just assume the usual 'life' will get in the way and you'll leave it sit for a week or 10 days and the next time you go down to the marina you'll be scrubbing for hours.

The growth won't hurt the boat for the most part other than slowing you down/costing you fuel money (do be careful it doesn't clog your water intakes though), so if you try it with a bare bottom you can always haul and paint it in a month or two if it becomes a problem.

VancouverMark
02-11-2011, 07:51 PM
Yeller......where is your boat moored in Van? What do you have?

I think I am going to try it a unpainted and see if my usage and bottom upkeep is enough. I can always haul her and paint her a couple months.

Cheers
Mark

Morgan's Cloud
02-11-2011, 08:02 PM
I have no idea what type of growth you experience where you are or how aggresively it grows but , trust me , believing that you'll be able to keep up with it with regular overboard cleaning is going to get old quickly ... very quickly ..(been there , bought the T shirt too ).
You're going to be amazed how large your hull bottom is going to seem when you have to clean it every time you go for a run and want it running it's best.
Maybe you could come up with an arrangement with a marina/haulout slip owner to pop up semi regularly for a power washing and then right back over again within the hour.
In these rough times someone might appreciate a few bucks for a brief haulout where they don't have to do anything themselves other than push a button and watch you do the work !