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ralph crocker
01-27-2011, 07:38 PM
I am a retired drag racer but always wanted a Donzi. Last summer I got a really nice 84 22 ft that I ran on big lakes and love it GPS at 67.2 and I don,t know what I am doing yet. However I want to build a go fast small lake boat for short fast joy rides. I am working with Jamie of Lakeside who will be doing most of the work. I have great confidence in his knowledge and he and I will be the "deciders". But I would appreciate ideas (no offense to Jamie) I just like learning.

I am aquiring a 77 X18 hull with a TRS gimble and right hand steer stock tabs. I have a nice 406SBC I used in a race car. Great motor/H beam rods/pro one heads/steel crank/and more we will be pulling it apart and freshening with dish pistons to knock compression to about 10:1 max. Jamie will be working with the builder on a cam profile. It should come in at 600 HP. ANY THOUGHTS ON WHAT ELSE TO DO TO IT WHILE APART

Thoghts on exhaust?????

Drive I have heard from a TRS to a Bravo (more work) to a Konrad with some suggesting a Blackhawk. Money is an object. I am shooting for 85 MPH.
Any thoughts????? This boat will be not be hit hard!!!!!!!

Tabs/ ANY thoughts

Jamie will be fitting it with hydraulic steering. ANY THOUGHTS

Jamie if you see this I am simply curious as to what the Donzi world says.


Any and all input is appreciated.

PS the motor is equipped with an nos plate system and I will install a bottle but probably never use. I have experience with nos in drag cars/bikes/drag sleds. But probably just for looks.

Rumblefish
01-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Congrats Ralf...

Your in Great hands with Jamie at Lakeside.. he is a sharp guy that has done pretty much everything on these from completes to testing what he sells.

I still Race a Super Comp Dragster and Run Division 7 with Panella 565ci motors that are as you know extreme...

One thing you must know is that the two aplications are very different .

Drag motors are design to operate through a complete rpm range and dont see a sustained rpm there as they dont have a chance to have valvetrain harmonics that can wipe things out fairly quick.

Marine Engines are designed with cam lobe centers and components built to withstand sustained contant rpm.

So ....in short I like your Ideas but reality says. 91 octane fuel and steady rpm dictate the engine combo that will give you speed with longevity..

That why 502ci make 415hp instead of 815hp.. Its sound like you got great stuff to work with and have the experance to bring it all together.

This is a great site to hear and share ideas of things that work and dont work in the Boating world.

Like I said in your great hands.. so enjoy your new Passion!!

MOP
01-27-2011, 08:51 PM
With a real 600hp even the TRS will get to 85 and better, a Blackhawk on that hull setup properly would be well above 85 with 600HP. A stock 300 Merc will get you a tad shy of 80 we have seen that on this board. A mild 383 hooked to a BH would be a real nice package and get you close to if not past 90.

BUIZILLA
01-27-2011, 09:21 PM
hi Ralph... 600 is a BIG number for a pump gas 406

good luck with the project!

Sweet Cheekz
01-27-2011, 10:02 PM
IMHo Jim is right. Take 500 hp's put on a bravo with a shortie and run 80 all day reliably. It feels real fast in a small boat Good luck

Parnell

mrfixxall
01-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Mighty mouse II ?? i say skip all the other drives if money is no object and go with one of thease..
http://www.arneson-industries.com/page.php?type=products&id=bravoConversion

knock the compression and add a procharger,that will get you well over 600 hp..

BTW this in mighty mouse..
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61317&highlight=mighty+mouse

Camshafts??Call bob,he is the cam god! Call him and you will see what i mean..
585-654-8583

Phil S
01-28-2011, 01:50 AM
I'd say you have the attention of some of the best engine-buildin' Donzi-Owner's in the World (myself excluded), so be prepared to get some great advice (not from me). Knowing nothing beats cubic inches faster than "cubic" dollars gives you a tremendous advantage....welcome.

With kind regards,
Phil S.

Just Say N20
01-28-2011, 07:49 AM
Unless you plan to run an Arneson where rpms are not much of a concern, realize that you need whatever HP at below about 5,500 rpms or you will become your outdrive parts supplier's best customer.

Boat engines need lots of torque. A drag race engine is at the other end of the spectrum from what you want as a boat engine.

LKSD
01-28-2011, 08:33 AM
I am a retired drag racer but always wanted a Donzi. Last summer I got a really nice 84 22 ft that I ran on big lakes and love it GPS at 67.2 and I don,t know what I am doing yet. However I want to build a go fast small lake boat for short fast joy rides. I am working with Jamie of Lakeside who will be doing most of the work. I have great confidence in his knowledge and he and I will be the "deciders". But I would appreciate ideas (no offense to Jamie) I just like learning.
I am aquiring a 77 X18 hull with a TRS gimble and right hand steer stock tabs. I have a nice 406SBC I used in a race car. Great motor/H beam rods/pro one heads/steel crank/and more we will be pulling it apart and freshening with dish pistons to knock compression to about 10:1 max. Jamie will be working with the builder on a cam profile. It should come in at 600 HP. ANY THOUGHTS ON WHAT ELSE TO DO TO IT WHILE APART
Thoghts on exhaust?????
Drive I have heard from a TRS to a Bravo (more work) to a Konrad with some suggesting a Blackhawk. Money is an object. I am shooting for 85 MPH.
Any thoughts????? This boat will be not be hit hard!!!!!!!
Tabs/ ANY thoughts
Jamie will be fitting it with hydraulic steering. ANY THOUGHTS
Jamie if you see this I am simply curious as to what the Donzi world says.
Any and all input is appreciated.
PS the motor is equipped with an nos plate system and I will install a bottle but probably never use. I have experience with nos in drag cars/bikes/drag sleds. But probably just for looks.



Ralph, No offense taken.. :)




Costs aside, What I have suggested for the most part so far to Ralph is as follows:

In regards to the drive system...

Use a Konrad full 540 -2 Xfactor conversion if the power & durability of the drive are most important. It will raise the drive height considerably and can be shimmed down if ever needed.

Otherwise if strength and current ease of parts availability is more of a concern than converting to a B1 xr set up with a shorty may be the way to go.. This can also be shimmed down if needed..

Otherwise, nothing wrong with the trs in there, other than it is going to set deep, not have the same ease of parts availability as the other 2 systems and it will have to be pieced together because all he has currently is a TRS transom assembly in uncertain shape at this point.

The shortened drive height in theory should reduce drag gaining him extra speed & some improved handling. Or some of the pros of a Black hawk set up, but without the PITA of the twin props & long term parts issues..

In regards to the engine.....
I believe 5-600 hp is really more than enough and 500 should really have that moving. More over the 406 f he wants to convert it for marine usage wont yield quite the same results in the marine environment if the exhaust and cam are properly selected. I think with some good components, proper exhaust & cam selection and the rest of the right recipe in the 406 that somewhere around 500hp (not 600hp) can be put together to run in this environment without a blower.. But depending on where he wants or needs to be will also effect the price and what will be needed..

Otherwise a supercharger or more cubic inches may be a better way to go.


In regards to steering....
For the speed and for obvious safety reasons a full hydraulic system has been recommended by me...

I feel the Imco or Zeiger route would be a nice fit without spending money that can be spent elsewhere and he wont sacrifice quality. If he has me do the Konrad unit then WPM steering will be equipped on it..


For the Tabs/Planes....
I prefer using after market K-planes or the Lenco version of them. I have used both with very good results in many other applications..

There are a lot more little details to it than this in the grand scheme of things, but these are some of the prevalent basics.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
01-28-2011, 08:49 AM
Unless you plan to run an Arneson where rpms are not much of a concern, realize that you need whatever HP at below about 5,500 rpms or you will become your outdrive parts supplier's best customer.
Boat engines need lots of torque. A drag race engine is at the other end of the spectrum from what you want as a boat engine.

Good point.. Yes the HP & Torque curves are important in this environment and application.. :) J

ralph crocker
01-28-2011, 09:54 AM
Attn Jamie. Make no mistake you are my go to guy. And I want this project to end up something we are BOTH proud of. Due to $ we may have to build a step plan. If things go ok financially here I would ideally go all the way first shot.

Thanks guys keep it coming. More info as you guys know dyno RPM is a factor of of RPM and torque,. Nice to say but not much value. My engine builder buddies have a dyno and software to build a virtual motor. That combined with seat of the pants experience will get us close. So specific info on torque and RPM will help.

Jamie: perhaps some input will stir a thought.

ralph crocker
01-28-2011, 10:36 AM
I meant HP is nice to say but not much value. Torque & Rpm are the real factors.

donzi racer
01-28-2011, 10:54 AM
Ralph, I am so glad that you started this thread. Already some great ideas. I think this will be a benifit to a lot of Donzi owners. What a wonderful thing to start with like a blank canvas, this hull should be. It is funny that I had a 406 engine & alpha SS drive that was going in this hull. Just ran out of $ before I could get it started. I am so glad it went to someone with some vision to do it right. I am sure that Forrest will be tickled that it is finally going to get the right treatment.

On another note, does anyone have any idea or have you seen any other original starboard steering X-18's?

I think your thoughts on how to go about doing this Donzi were right on Jamie. Like I said before what a wonderful thing to have basically a blank canvas to start with. I am sure I will happy that I can say at the end of the project that I once owned that X-18 for a few minutes. ha ha

Finally, I know it might help some of us other Donzi Classic nuts out here if there were some sort of price range estimate of some of the options that are discussed here. That may help other people get off their duffs & do some upgrades to their Donzi's that have been sitting around.

Again just tickled that Ralph & the Boat are getting the help that is needed to bring this beauty back into the Donzi enjoyment category. Although I know this will never be another Mighty Mouse, I do believe since you are starting from scratch, it would almost be as easy to start thinking in terms of 90 plus instead of just 85. Just my 2c, Tom

Carl C
01-28-2011, 11:39 AM
I had to delete my original post because I just realized that you are talking about an X18. I'd like to see you put the money into the 22. The 22C is still small enough for smaller lakes. Anyway, good luck with the project. And, Ralph, I haven't lost your phone #. I just tried to call you and I will be in touch. We will do some boating on the big water this summer if you are still up for that.

SamIam
01-28-2011, 11:39 AM
What about the SCX drive? No transmission-less weight, X-dim adjustable
IMCO SCX upper & -2" SC lower...strength(top) and speed(bottom)
Latham or IMCO steering...
Build 454 out of the 406...

blackboat
01-28-2011, 11:49 AM
Ralph, congrats on the buy of the X18 . Looks like a real good deal. A good friend of mine who raced achohol dragsters had one.
These have lots of potential He ran single cylinder external steering,a very high x dimension. kept a spare 350 mildly built and ran a heavily modified N/A 400 ci chevy with a spinelli chopper prop in the 6400 rpm range.
He had to beef up the engine compartment with some extra fiberglass reinforcing to handle the torque.
They are awesome boats !!

LKSD
01-28-2011, 05:33 PM
What about the SCX drive? No transmission-less weight, X-dim adjustable
IMCO SCX upper & -2" SC lower...strength(top) and speed(bottom)
Latham or IMCO steering...
Build 454 out of the 406...

None of the drive choices will be simple and completely direct. They all have pros & cons..

The SCX is also a good unit, but not a direct TRS replacement unit that goes into the TRS cut out like a Konrad. That I why it did not make my initial thoughts on recommendations. The Konrad 540 X -2 set up would certainly be overkill, but a fairly quick swap because of the lack of glass work needed. There are still other things to deal with tho if that is used.

If the boat was going to get the transom glassed & a fresh new cut out a B1 opening with the Xr or Xr style set up and a -2 lower. Also the new static X can be cut in higher gaining several inches of raise over the deep trs set up in there now. Which would reduce drag, increase speed and handling.

The SCX is the mid level offering from Imco. The regular Extreme in a -2 would be more than adequate in an 18 and basically their version of a Merc B1 Xr sportmaster lower. The Scx would only eat up a little more power and not really gain anything as it's extra strength over the extreme in an 18 is, well not necessary on 5-600hp for the most part. Unless he changes his mind on the Nos... lol.. :D The Sct would require glass work, a tranny & a whole lot more $$ & time and again un-necessary weight, power loss & issues..

Part of doing a project like this is using the proper recipe. The proper selection of the power and drive without going too far overkill is important. Strong enough to easily obtain what you want and be reliable, but not overly cumbersome so that reliability is the only thing you are gaining and at the expense of the performance you are striving for.. ;)

:) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Ralph, congrats on the buy of the X18 . Looks like a real good deal. A good friend of mine who raced achohol dragsters had one.
These have lots of potential He ran single cylinder external steering,a very high x dimension. kept a spare 350 mildly built and ran a heavily modified N/A 400 ci chevy with a spinelli chopper prop in the 6400 rpm range.
He had to beef up the engine compartment with some extra fiberglass reinforcing to handle the torque.
They are awesome boats !!


Depending on power and set up some extra glass work and reinforcements may be in order depending on what his final decisions are. We had discussed this a couple weeks ago when he was first thinking of the project.. :)

craigdskilling
01-28-2011, 07:38 PM
someone said a 18 with a 383 and bh would be a nice set up i hope so cause that is what is going on for the spring.1987 18' donzi with a 400hp 383 .the only problem is that i think i have to small of props of27 I think i should be looking for some 29 or31

NJFASTECH
01-28-2011, 09:06 PM
someone said a 18 with a 383 and bh would be a nice set up i hope so cause that is what is going on for the spring.1987 18' donzi with a 400hp 383 .the only problem is that i think i have to small of props of27 I think i should be looking for some 29 or31

I think I would test those props you have first ! then give up some numbers and RPM's

craigdskilling
01-29-2011, 04:01 PM
Will do.:nilly:

GBond
01-29-2011, 05:46 PM
I'd really consider the Konrad 540 and be done. You can put big HP in front of and not worry about it holding up. Also, props won't be an issue. Peace of mind is worth a couple bucks.

gcarter
01-29-2011, 06:00 PM
someone said a 18 with a 383 and bh would be a nice set up i hope so cause that is what is going on for the spring.1987 18' donzi with a 400hp 383 .the only problem is that i think i have to small of props of27 I think i should be looking for some 29 or31

Don Tamm (Doncig) had an 18 w/a built 427 and a Blackhawk. It would consistantly run mid 80's. It didn't seem to suffer at all from lack of trim w/that drive.

ralph crocker
01-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Thanks for all the input. How about an Arneson. The guy has a fairly new configuration that comes complete with trans/steering/and something new that allows for better trim. He told me what he knew of the mighty mouse progression. Very interesting but a little nuts, just a little. Apparently the mighty mouse drive was purchased used and to Rick for refurb and modification. HMMMM any used ones out there.

LKSD
01-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Ralph, I figured I would post part of my response to your same question that I answered the other day as it may help any others that may be following the post or be interested.... :)

As far as the Arneson, I have dealt a few times in the past with Rik as well as Howard (who is the company founder). I remember Rik fairly easily as his name is spelled in a bit different fashion from the usual way.. :)

Anyway, while they do have a drive set up that tolerates high power applications well, has a low drag co-efficient & does work well for all out speed on some hulls including some Donzi's, there are still a few draw backs (excluding price $$$) . Some experience less than stellar docking traits, wide turning radiuses & propping issues. Also unless you get a prop shaft set up for use with the Xr style prop hubs or an adapter, propping those gets very costly & time consuming.

Don't get me wrong, they do have their place and can and do work very well on some hulls. And yes it has obviously been done on an 18 before as well as some others. However it is not without some time and money invested as well.

The other issue is finding a used one. Mainly because the only time you usually see one for sale is if the boat is going to an even bigger power set up where they are going into a different Arneson set up, or the boat is shot and they are parting out the power and drive line. This is actually a testament in a matter of speaking to the quality of their unit, but it still does not change what you will need to go thru to run one..


:) Jamie / Lakeside

mrfixxall
01-30-2011, 04:32 PM
Thanks for all the input. How about an Arneson. The guy has a fairly new configuration that comes complete with trans/steering/and something new that allows for better trim. He told me what he knew of the mighty mouse progression. Very interesting but a little nuts, just a little. Apparently the mighty mouse drive was purchased used and to Rick for refurb and modification. HMMMM any used ones out there.


put it this way,they are bullet proof, well they last longer then any merc,konrad,imco drive that you can hang off the back of the boat..just make sure you use a extension box to put a transmission in..mighty mouse was a start it and go boat(direct drive) no neutral or reverse.you may not have enough room in the boat for a transmission,but then again you might because its a trs boat.But that will also move the engine way to far forward and you boat will ride wet with the forward weight. also if you decide to, make sure it is a drop box version,,I'm sure a straight version would work but the engine would have to have a dry sump oil pan,external pump and tank so the engine would have to sit real low in the boat.

All what jamie said is true but no body has put a asd7 on a extension box and on a 18' donzi yet..i think everyone that has installed one had good and bad success,getting the prop away from the back of the boat to cleaner water will make a bit of difference..

donzi racer
01-30-2011, 05:48 PM
I went out today to get a few pics of the transplant patient & thought Ralph would not mind me sharing the pics with everyone. The black was sooooo faded, I could not help myself & I broke down & put the Magic to it. Came out very nice. Such a beautiful boat. Also Ralph, don't you think you need a matching Black Maserati to tow it around with? I just happen to have a truck up near you, so I could drop the whole rig & bring my truck back. Hmmmmm? Have I got a deal for youuuuu!!! LOL This is not neccesarily the trailer but one of two that may come with it. This one will need a couple of matching wheels & tires that I will take care of before it heads north. I can't wait until it gets water ready. Da Racer

ralph crocker
01-30-2011, 08:11 PM
hey Tom. Thanks for the photos and I have no problem sharing. Sounds korny but although my $$$$ and my boat I feel this to be a project to share with the Donzi community. When I was 10 (1955) I spent my summers on Lake Huron with our wood boat and a 7.5Hp Martin.A man in the neighborhood would pull out his Peterborough boat with a 25HP and a steering wheel. Imagine that! I would sit for hours near where he anchored awaiting a ride invitation which rarely came. So although new to it last summer I loved giving folks rides in my 22 and look forward to doing same with the 18. So any of you guys with used stuff available we might use let me know and I will consult with Jamie $$$$ are an object!!!!!!!!
PS Tom I would like trailer you think fits best. I will trust your judgement and that you will be fair.

Greg Guimond
01-30-2011, 08:19 PM
That is a great color combo Ralph......good luck with the project :yes:

donzi racer
01-30-2011, 11:33 PM
hey Tom. Thanks for the photos and I have no problem sharing. Sounds korny but although my $$$$ and my boat I feel this to be a project to share with the Donzi community. When I was 10 (1955) I spent my summers on Lake Huron with our wood boat and a 7.5Hp Martin.A man in the neighborhood would pull out his Peterborough boat with a 25HP and a steering wheel. Imagine that! I would sit for hours near where he anchored awaiting a ride invitation which rarely came. So although new to it last summer I loved giving folks rides in my 22 and look forward to doing same with the 18. So any of you guys with used stuff available we might use let me know and I will consult with Jamie $$$$ are an object!!!!!!!!
PS Tom I would like trailer you think fits best. I will trust your judgement and that you will be fair.

Ralph, Most of the Donzi members here, enjoy the little beasts so much, they get a family feeling about them & their owners. We especially all enjoy information about them & love it when someone elses money is used to bring them up to pieces of Artwork. ha ha At least I enjoy it when it is someone elses money. ha ha See ya soon. Tom

ralph crocker
01-31-2011, 08:26 AM
Whoa hold off big big storm coming thru Tuesday and Wedn

donzi racer
01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
Thanks Ralph, I have been kinda checking the weather up there every few days but you are there & can keep me more informed. Tom