Fairing - Good or Bad and Why

[Greg Guimond]

Does anyone know if a 16 has ever been modified to include a fairing? Any pics or opinions? :confused:

[axelkloehn]

no way, don't do it! It does not protect from wind anyway, and for optical reasons? The pure style of a 16 is classic, a fairing will destroy the clean line...

[Just Say N20]

I agree with Axel.

We can ≠ We should.

But ultimately it is your boat, and with all the modifications you are doing already, if you think you would like the look with a fairing, go for it.

BUT, it will be strictly aesthetic. It will only serve to direct the wind into your face.

[axelkloehn]

what about this? :wink:

[Greg Guimond]

I tend to think it will look like crap myself but I'm surprised that they actually do not even work? Wow, I guess that is why the factory windshield option was so darn high? I wonder if that is because there is no "lip" on the top of the screen itself
_
\

[FISHIN SUCKS]

I kinda like the one that Axel put up, but I like the original lines too. Here is a picture (left side, second one down, white/blue stripes, 4 people on board) of the one that was at AOTH last year, he made the pharing himself. Looks like the wind is in your face no matter what.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63999

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks for that photo fs, does anyone happen to know if this gentleman is a board member? I would like to make contact with him to ask a few questions. He did a really nice job and it looks good as he followed the radius of the 16. I'm not sure it would look good with a wacker though. I have some hair brain ideas (oh no, hate when I get that feeling) of what could be done to perhaps make a fairing that dissapears when not in use :propeller: It would all depend on how high the thing would need to be.

Axel, how high is your fairing ?

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Anytime Greg! I don't know if they are on the board here or not, but I do remember that they were very cool people and from Minnesota and that he did the work himself, including the side exhaust! Check with Roadtrip (Todd), he should have their sign up information from last year's AOTH, they were the only ones that came from Minne.

[Rumblefish]

what about this? :wink:


awesome!! F-1 Donzi.. love to see a side shot

[axelkloehn]

Axel, how high is your fairing ?

sorry to disappoint you but it is a photoshop sketch I did for a board member last year, no measurements available.

There is a thread about the 16 with the fairing ( or is it a 18?), as far as remember it was posted by lksd last year under engine pics, but may be am wrong

[joseph m. hahnl]

I tend to think it will look like crap myself but I'm surprised that they actually do not even work? Wow, I guess that is why the factory windshield option was so darn high? I wonder if that is because there is no "lip" on the top of the screen itself
_
\

A fairing is not just for wind like most people think.:bonk: It is to divert the water around to the outside of the boat.
Rather than it pouring into your lap:shocking:

There was a 16 that had the old style windshield with snaps,so it could be removed just by unsnaping it.

I think this might be the one but not sure

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57926&d=1281668012 (http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57926&d=1281668012)

[Greg Guimond]

sorry to disappoint you but it is a photoshop sketch I did for a board member last year, no measurements available.

There is a thread about the 16 with the fairing ( or is it a 18?), as far as remember it was posted by lksd last year under engine pics, but may be am wrong


Huh? I thought your GT21 has an integrated fairing?

[Greg Guimond]

[quote=joseph m. hahnl;588433]A fairing is not just for wind like most people think.:bonk: It is to divert the water around to the outside of the boat. Rather than it pouring into your lap:shocking:There was a 16 that had the old style windshield with snaps,so it could be removed just by unsnaping it. I think this might be the one but not sure

Interesting Joe and I agree as I take a lot of water over the bow. I have never seen the 16 with the removable windscreen but I am dreaming up something in my head right now :jestera:

[Greg Guimond]

Anyone have a 16 right in there garage? I am wondering how many inches it is from the floor of the underbow ski locker to the underside of the deck. I am going to guess about 21"-23" :cool:

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Greg , doing 1/4 canopies like that is not out of the norm and can be done and when i was at Skater it was not on common to do something of this nature when converting boats from race to pleasure .

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks OG, but I'm looking to do something that would be in keeping with the "resto-mod" theme of the project. Axel's canopies just don't fit but if he is willing to keep his incredible drawing skills warm I have an idea that I will post over on Building Surface Tension.

Btw OG, if my deck weighs 409lbs now, how many lbs could be eliminated if we plugged it and then bagged a new deck only? Any rough idea?

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Thanks OG, but I'm looking to do something that would be in keeping with the "resto-mod" theme of the project. Axel's canopies just don't fit but if he is willing to keep his incredible drawing skills warm I have an idea that I will post over on Building Surface Tension.

Btw OG, if my deck weighs 409lbs now, how many lbs could be eliminated if we plugged it and then bagged a new deck only? Any rough idea? Hey Greg ,depending on what materials are being used considering ...that when you bag anything .....it can take two layer's of fabric and compress it to the point where it actually seems like one layer of fabric . Greg , depending on how lite you would really want the deck .....and that being a very key factor ......you could shave 100 lbs or more easy .............

[Northern Sweet]

Isn't the idea of the 16 to feel the wind in your face.... and the waves, rain, bugs etc....

Adds to the experience and makes you feel like you are going faster than you are!

[mermademarine]

With some minimum engineering and two lenco hatch lifters you could have your wind screen that disappeared when not in use. Some kind of aqua Porsche.

[GBond]

Azz for ever seat....:biggrin: There shouldn't have been an option for the 18c.

[Greg Guimond]

With some minimum engineering and two lenco hatch lifters you could have your wind screen that disappeared when not in use. Some kind of aqua Porsche.

I'm not sure I understand, what are "hatch lifters" ?

[axelkloehn]

Sorry Greg, did understand you wrong, thought you meant measurements of the canopies- my GT fairing is about 6"-7" high, but this is no exact measurement (not going to lift the cover before end of march). I did a quick sketch for the 16, sideview looks great!! But we have to check the other views. May be I find some time this afternoon :crossfing:

[axelkloehn]

I must admit I start to like it... but it is a different boat after this change. Make it a bolt-on thing, so you can ride with or without it

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Axe , i like it .

[mermademarine]

www.lencomarine.com

their hatch lifters can be used to raise and lower a windshield or almost anything else.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

www.lencomarine.com (http://www.lencomarine.com)

their hatch lifters can be used to raise and lower a windshield or almost anything else. Just curious have you ever used there product (hatch lifter ) other then for a hatch and if so ..............could we see some pics ?

[GBond]

These boats used to be pretty rare (limited), maybe that's what I miss.

No windscreen or fairing for either the 16c or 18c.

[Greg Guimond]

GBond, when you say "these boats" which model Donzi are you referring to ?

[GBond]

Look up.... 16/18c

[Greg Guimond]

Well, the 16 Classic I/O is certainly not rare given the number that were produced. The 18 Classic is perhaps a little less common, but not enough to make it rare. Some of the other models like Critters, GT21 and the list goes on certainly qualify for "rare". Now the 16 OB Baby is somewhat of the red headed cousin. While only 170 or so were made, they are not terribly sought after given most folks that are Donzi fans by default are also I/O fans.
I think that makes them more of an oddity, kinda like me and my ideas :rofl::hi5:

What model Donzi do you have?

[Greg Guimond]

With some minimum engineering and two lenco hatch lifters you could have your wind screen that disappeared when not in use. Some kind of aqua Porsche.


mermademarine, I'd like to get a better idea of what you have in mind?

[axelkloehn]

some more ideas. Like the third pic with the cobra sidewindows mounted to the grip-rail. Or a Fourwinns U19 screen, it looks quite nice

[DickB]

Check with Roadtrip (Todd), he should have their sign up information from last year's AOTH, they were the only ones that came from Minne.
Ouch!

[Greg Guimond]

Axel, first thanks! It is great when the people on this forum help one another. Those pics give me some adjusted thoughts, more later. You are a talented man :yes: Anyone have access to a wind tunnel for testing?

[axelkloehn]

Axel, first thanks! It is great when the people on this forum help one another. Those pics give me some adjusted thoughts, more later. You are a talented man :yes: Anyone have access to a wind tunnel for testing?

Thanks, Greg, you're welcome- wind is not a big problem up to 60 mph- I just lost my bobble hat once :wink:. I rode with Michis Shelby up to 86 mph, there it gets difficult with the wind, but it is definitely not disturbing the fun... it is more our wifes who complain about too much wind.. ehm I mean too much speed... but they will do that anyway...

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Ouch!
Oooops, my bad Dick:bonk:. How could I forget the mishaps of your trip, tire blowout(s?) and somethin else (I blame the drinking for not remembering everything else:nilly:). Do you know those people that came down from Minne?
Sorry for the partial thread HI-Jack!

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

some more ideas. Like the third pic with the cobra sidewindows mounted to the grip-rail. Or a Fourwinns U19 screen, it looks quite niceAXE ,i dont really care for that style but the chick is hot .

[roadtrip se]

Oooops, my bad Dick:bonk:. How could I forget the mishaps of your trip, tire blowout(s?) and somethin else (I blame the drinking for not remembering everything else:nilly:). Do you know those people that came down from Minne?
Sorry for the partial thread HI-Jack!

Not to pile on Tom, but Dick was the AOTH X Towmaster. Tires (he has some fresh ones now), some bent fenders, and if I remember correctly, a drive issue put him on the hook. His boat looked awesome with the wood treatments and his Donzi clocks were the hit of the auction. Thanks Dick for coming. Come back, it has to be better for you this year!

As for the topic du jour, I like the look of a bare deck 22 when you see one, as it just makes the deck look longer and the boat sleeker. It's a preference, but the same thing applies to the 16 and the 18. Windshield or faring, they really have no function and they don't really add to the lines of the Classics from my view. The only reason my windshield is still on the 22 is because I like the look of the stainless frame.

[Greg Guimond]

Agree with you RT, the bare deck is the best look but if something can be done that is both removable and, when installed, gives the proper retro look, then you get the best of both worlds and the passengers are more willing to go for a spin. Wind tunnel question is how high it needs to be to actually be effective as the height will be key to "the look". Axel's photos really helped me out, anything with a radius windscreen is way to modern and does not work in my application. Have to think through the options but already have some things in mind and I'm sure you can rent time in a wind tunnel to verify. :yes:

[Greg Guimond]

Taking Axel's helpful handywork I thought a bit more and have another hair brained idea. Done this way the screens are completely removable and can be stored underneath. If the glass is straight then Lexan can be used in 1/2". When the screens are out, the receiver holes can accept a flush gas fill cap. Those can be matched to the actual fuel fills in size and style.....maybe. If you wanted to fool the eye, you could bring the frame down to be a little above the grab rail.

Still fiddling around with the details and if they would actually work :nilly::nilly: but the Street Rod pic gives a rough feel for glass on chrome style, or at least one option. I think as soon as you radius the glass you move toward modern so trying to stick with simple and square.

[mermademarine]

A boat builder named Bobby Sherbert who designed most of the Daytona boats, including one that set a speed record for a Miami to New York run would test some of his forms on the highway. He would put ribbons on the form and tow it down the road and with another vehicle take photos of the form and the ribbons flowing over it. I saw photos of him doing it with some "blisters that he was going to install into a hull to allow for larger transmissions. If "Surface Tension " is trailer able that may be an option.

[Greg Guimond]

Well, right now the boat is a long way from a trailer but agree with your thoughts and that would be a foolproof test. The problem is I would like to decide first so that the deck holes can be cut now, pre finish work.

Of course, I could take the easy way out and get a set of Shelby Cobra wind-wings as a template, enlarge them as needed, and then just bolt them to the grab rail like retro wind-aways. I agree with Axel that they look pretty good.

[axelkloehn]

Well, right now the boat is a long way from a trailer but agree with your thoughts and that would be a foolproof test. The problem is I would like to decide first so that the deck holes can be cut now, pre finish work.

Of course, I could take the easy way out and get a set of Shelby Cobra wind-wings as a template, enlarge them as needed, and then just bolt them to the grab rail like retro wind-aways. I agree with Axel that they look pretty good.

...and you have the possibility to adjust them- steeper-flatter- or turn them down frontwards to get the full wind blowing in your face :kingme:

[Greg Guimond]

True, but I wonder if they actually work. Hmmmmmmm.

[Greg Guimond]

More upright effect..........

[DickB]

Do you know those people that came down from Minne?
Sorry for the partial thread HI-Jack!
No, I don't know them. I talked to them a bit out on the water day 2, but don't remember their names - I have always been bad at that.

[Greg Guimond]

Well thanks to the help of two nice board members I have some feedback on the factory 16 Windshield offering.
It seems that there is no doubt that it works pretty well at the dimensions that it was built to, even though it makes the boat look like a Riva! Here is a picture of a wacker with a windshield for the few that care :puke:
This gives me some more ideas of what the dimensions might need to be for two removable windscreens. If you add a small lip at the end of the run, that could shrink the size a little as well.

[Greg Guimond]

I would have never thought the windshield offered by the Donzi factory was only 14" tall at its highest point in the middle. Notice though, that if you blank out the return of the windshield it changes the entire look. I think I have enough to work with now, so back to your regular programming.

[Greg Guimond]

And here is a look 6 months later with the evolved design for windscreens...........

[Greg Guimond]

Axel, any chance you can lay those dual windshields on top of this deck for a peek?

[MOP]

Most all windshields offered by Donzi do nothing to protect from the wind with the exception of the mid 80's 22's with the deflectors, most blow more wind in your face, straighten your hair and deflect water to a higher level on your body. As for water coming over the bow there must be a reverse deflector to channel water off to the sides, not many options that do anything more than enhance the look in the eyes of the owner. I like many have either owned or ridden is all the various versions, the stock late style windshields bring tears to your eyes, IMO they are more fore looks. If spray comes over the bow you wear it high, it is near impossible to wear any kind of hat without a chin strap. My vote is if you can't take the wind and spray build something high, otherwise enjoy you Donzi for what it is. Just for the record I truly enjoy my older style 22 deflector style windshield which leaves my hat in place at any speed and with a slight duck deflects water above me! To this end "If you like it Do It" it is your ride and when you go to sell it someone else will like it too!

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Axel, any chance you can lay those dual windshields on top of this deck for a peek? Greg , are you talking about the canopies?

[THEDONZ33]

Personally I like the Classic 16 with a windshield Here is the closest side by side as I can demonmstrate. My Windshield does not do anything but look good. Now as for the looks of a solid fiberglass fairing I think that would not look as good as a windshield. Just My $0.02 being a Classic owner.

[Greg Guimond]

MOP, the entire thought process is based on style and looks only, not function. This is part of the reason for making the screens removable. What I think looks good to another may not.

Ginger, no I'm not talking about the canopies although they are cool in there own right. I am talking about building the straight panel windscreens in the picture below. I happen to like the straight panels as they are "old school". That is just me though and I am a little quirky :lookaroun:

Donz33, thanks for the post, interesting to see the side by side. Curious if you think the dual straight panel windscreens in the pic below look bad, average, or good?

[THEDONZ33]

I do like the half Rail and glass sportscar look with the side wings I think a single glass with side wings would look better then twin "sunglasses" look. I think you are trying for the Shelby Cobra sports car look If done to fit the lines of the boat more the the curves of the car it would be an awsem custom one off look. again just my $0.02

[THEDONZ33]

something along this line fitted to the donzi lines might also look great

[Walt. H.]

FWIW, 16's & 18's look better & faster w/o a w/shield, just cleaner looking I guess.

[Greg Guimond]

The windshields would be removable so you could choose

[Greg Guimond]

Donz33, that is also a cool windshield. The one thing I have found is that you have to be careful on how complex the metalwork is or you arrive quickly at "budget breaking" numbers. The more curves require the use of waterjet which means big $$. I think I can get "the look" for a reasonable amount of dinero. At least that is the hope.

[Carl C]

FWIW, 16's & 18's look better & faster w/o a w/shield, just cleaner looking I guess.

Sometimes 22's too! http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/xx275/CARLC222/rsz_1pictures_448.jpg

Greg, I like the idea of removable wind deflectors. You'll be more comfortable in cool weather.

[gcarter]

The Austin Healey 100M had an adjustable windshield that was very cool and very versatile;

http://images.dealerrevs.com/pictures/180079.jpg

http://members.home.nl/rgubbels/100M.jpg

If you could get some details off one of these, it might be fairly simple to duplicate.

[silverghost]

Reproduction Chrome plated high-quality brass Brittish racing windscreens are sold by Moss Motors LTD.(Calif USA)
Search for~

"Brooklands Racing Screens"

Moss sells quality Brittish Car reproduction parts.
These were small adjustable windscreens used on MGTD & Jaguar & other Brittish autos in the 50-50s

Moss Motors has a great on-line website catalog.

Greg~
These would look great on your benchseat/racer project.

[joseph m. hahnl]

This with a snap on /off system would be cool.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60988&d=1295338581 (http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60988&d=1295338581)

[Greg Guimond]

Here you go .........

[silverghost]

Greg~

That's exactly what I was talking about ~

There are several sizes of these "Windscreens" available.

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks Brad. I need roughly two feet wide for my build.

[silverghost]

The larger Brittish "Windscreens" were used on the much earlier 20-30s "Blower" Bentleys ~
I seem to remember a UK based outfit that calls themselves

"The Complete Vintage Automobilist"

that has a great online "catalogue" that sells three sizes of these Brittish "Brooklands Racing Screens". & "Aeroscreens"
Very neat high-quality reproductions using the original tooling.
My late Dad bought some Rolls~Royce Silver Ghost reproduction accessories for our 1924 Springfield Silver Ghost Mahogany Boat~Tail Skiff auto from these Britt guys.

Do a web search for them~
Great folks~
Fair prices~
Credit Card Online Orders
Easy shipping to the USA

[THEDONZ33]

Thanks Brad. I need roughly two feet wide for my build.


Greg,

Seems like there are a lot of options
I wish you the best finding just the right "look". I think its a very cool concept, can't wait to see the results !!!
Keep the pictures coming on the progress.

[Carl C]

Here you go ......... :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

[axelkloehn]

looks ok in 3D, no problem for me, nice and classic approach

[axelkloehn]

also a fairing does not look too bad, but makes it more a modern boat, not so classic anymore

[h20loo]

looks ok in 3D, no problem for me, nice and classic approach
I wonder if they come in prescription?

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting look Axel, especially with the option of fold down. Thanks for posting your handiwork as always. I was hoping you could take the actual screen pic and put it on the real deck. Of course, I have no idea if that is possible and how much work it is for you so I should bonk myself :bonk:The width of the screen below is 16"

Brad,
I went to the site you suggested, "The Complete Vintage Automobilist"
but the largest screens they offer are only 16" wide and pretty low. If there are other sites let me know.

One thing I noted with the British sites is that screen dimensions seem to follow a pattern. Whatever the width is, the height is then half that.

[Greg Guimond]

Some forum members have consistently commented that windshields on 16's have no functional benefit. I disagree. While the reason for the excersise is "looks" one of the other reasons I want to have the final product be removable is so they can be used front or back. If you are a kid say 5' or less, I would think that the screen being in place would drop the buffeting from the wind substantially and also lower the associated noise. That makes for a much more pleasant "spin" with Dad if you are a little person. I won't know for sure until they are done, but I am pretty sure of this. :yes:

[silverghost]

Thanks Brad. I need roughly two feet wide for my build.

Greg~
The "Windscreens" that Complete Vintage Automobilist " sells are as wide as I believe anyone sells.

Have you checked-out any of the vintage antique mahogany Chris~Craft & Gar Wood hardware suppliers out there ?
You can find old & reproducion folding windshields of all types & sizes out there for these vintage speedboats~ If you look around hard enough.

[Greg Guimond]

I have checked that a bit Brad. The issue you run into is the minute you use words like Garwood or Vintage the costs jump through the roof four and five fold and you are actually more expensive then custom. I will keep poking around.

[silverghost]

The old plated brass boat windshield frames pop-up on ebay all the time.
Perhapps you can snag a deal ?
It's true~
Some of the vintage boat reproduction hardware guys charge
a fortune.

"Rustnrot" here, and his friends, have used these vintage style windshields on a number of old Donzi & other fiberglass boat re-creation projects.
Why not email him to see if he knows of a supplier who has down-to-earth pricing ?

[silverghost]

Some of these old style folding windshield frames can handle almost any width safety-glass you may wish to use.

[silverghost]

Greg~
Do a web search for Bugatti-style folding boat windshield.

The old Chis~Craft "Barrelbacks" often used them.

There are a number of reprduction suppliers of this type of folding boat windshield out there.

[Greg Guimond]

The "Bugatti Style" windscreen is very similiar to my final design being larger then Brooklands. The difference is my design would have two quick release pins per screen allowing the screens to be removed completely, or moved to the rumble seat location and used there. On the Barrel Back the Bugatti uses a single chrome spanner base piece with quite a bit of crown in it.

[Greg Guimond]

Going to poke around and see if anyone is building these Bugatti Style dual windshields as reproductions. That would allow me to at least get dimensions on them.

[Greg Guimond]

Ok, after a lot of searching I found a company that makes a "Bugatti Style" fold down windscreen reproduction. They do not say the material used but it is the complete dual side assembly, highly polished and without glass.

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting that the Bugatti Style windscreens are offered in two widths, 26" and 28" where the Brooklands Style windscreens were only 16" wide. I don't have the height of the Bugatti's yet, but I bet it is about 13" high.

[Ghost]

Do they customize the shape of the base as part of fabricating it? Or is is a matter of trying to find a base shape that will fit?

I looked over a bunch of thse sorts of things online, and saw a few where the mounting base for each glass piece was simply two end pieces, that looked like it would be easier (not to be confused with 'easy') to fit. I do wonder who built these for Packard Boats, long since out of business.

If you're striving for 'reconfigurable' rather than 'convertible on the fly,' I wonder if biting the bullet and having one long, curved base with a flat top might be the path to salvation.

(Just kinda musing out loud, lots of these thoughts have come up in the thread already.)

I'm eager to see where you ultimately go with this. I've had a bunch of similar notions about Donzi windshields and deck hardware in the past, so I think I share your interest/disease here. :)

[Greg Guimond]

Appreciate the musings....

In the "Bugatti Style" windscreens, the curvature of the base is pre-configured. Just from the look of it, the crown seems to be too much for the deck of a 16. I would have to get an exact bend of the 16's deck to know for sure. I'm also a little concerned with to "heavy" a look between the chrome base, then the chrome of the frame itself, then the chrome arms. On a 20's Chris Craft sitting on wood it looks superb, but on a Donzi 16's white deck I think it would look out of place. Thanks for posting your pic. What is that off? It shows a more simple design which tells me I probably want something in between the two styles. :idea: There has to be a way to get a simple cast piece to act as the base and then fabricate my left and right quick release pins to that.

[Greg Guimond]

I should add that the "Bugatti" reproductions are only available from two vendors in NA. One in CA and one in NY. The "Brooklands" is available from many vendors.

[Ghost]

Appreciate the musings....

In the "Bugatti Style" windscreens, the curvature of the base is pre-configured. Just from the look of it, the crown seems to be too much for the deck of a 16. I would have to get an exact bend of the 16's deck to know for sure. I'm also a little concerned with to "heavy" a look between the chrome base, then the chrome of the frame itself, then the chrome arms. On a 20's Chris Craft sitting on wood it looks superb, but on a Donzi 16's white deck I think it would look out of place. Thanks for posting your pic. What is that off? It shows a more simple design which tells me I probably want something in between the two styles. :idea: There has to be a way to get a simple cast piece to act as the base and then fabricate my left and right quick release pins to that.

Agreed--I have the same instinct about the fit of the 'heavy' look on a 16.

The pic I posted is of a Packard 27. A modern retro boat, all glass but in the style of the old woodies. Not made any more. Think they vanished by 2005, maybe closer to 2000.

Had another wacky thought. I wonder what 3 of the thinner, 16" or so Brooklands style winshields would look like? With one centered and the other two angled slightly aft and lower as they go outward?

Mike

[silverghost]

Greg~
I was searching the web for you and found this guy's site.

He sells lots of old used vintage mahogany runabout marine hardware.
I suspect his prices may be better than the vintage reproduction hardware guys.
You might want to call or e-mail him to tell him what you are trying to do on your project.
Perhapps you can buy the brass windscreen parts & have them re-plated & the safety glass made locally ?.
Some really cool old boat hardware here~
Check-It-Out

http://classicmarine.homestead.com/Classic-Boat-Hardware.html

[Greg Guimond]

Mike, nothing is out of bounds but I think by having 3 you would kill the symmetry which is a key design element. The 16's deck is tight as you know. I'm not sure how wide it is compared to an 18, and a 22 but here are some pics to noodle. I'm thinking two looks "fighter plane". Maybe take a Brooklands and cut it and extend it from 16" to 24"? They are polished aluminum so they would need to be plated. Will aluminum plate worth a darn?

Brad, sweet find. Thanks for looking. I am going to send him a note to see what he might have in the treasure chest. Maybe he has something that can serve as a base rail or better yet all the needed rails.

I'm thinking that the key to making this work is a few things.

1st - I think the glass has to have a radius edge design but not the full radius
2nd - I think your height needs to be 1/2 your width
3rd - I think a "base" piece formed to the deck is key, but it can't be too heavy and too bling

[Greg Guimond]

Took a nice long run with the family in the Warlock for Father's Day. Gave me a chance to noodle the windscreens some more (it is a disease) while I stared down at that flat deck and fired up the old school abacus.

While I was out there I got an email with the cost of the "Bugatti Style" dual super bling windscreens. Before I post up the price here is some build data.......any price guesses :eek:

Our parts are authentic show-quality reproductions of the original manufacturer's hardware. Most parts are investment-cast, using molds taken from original parts to ensure authenticity. A few parts are sand-cast, using patterns developed from original hardware. Parts are copper-nickel-chrome plated bronze or brass, unless otherwise noted.

[Greg Guimond]

I'm starting to wonder if a solid approach would be to modify "Brooklands" frames. You could purchase (3) frames, the cut two of them and use the 3rd as a donor to stretch the other two frames from 16" to 24" wide. You could then get your own glass and change the radius top to a more rectangular look like the pics below.........

[Greg Guimond]

I believe that the cost of the "Brooklands" frames are $200 each without glass. Figure glass would be $100 each and you are at $600. The fab work to stretch would be fairly easy but you'd have to fab in the quick connects. Then you would have the cost of plating the new pieces. That could get pricey I suspect. Would $300 per aluminum frame be about right? Price is now up to $1200. Then figure the cost of (4) quick release pins at $100 each........total now $1600 and climbing. Add some of this and that and it looks like you would have finished pieces for $2,000 total cost.

[Greg Guimond]

Maybe Rustnrot will see this and offer a source......:yes:

[silverghost]

From the email you received today out on the water it sounds like you dicovered Art's "Cal Classics" website.
He casts each & every part to order~
His prices are usually in the multi-thousands $$$$ .
You could possibly BUY another boat for what he charges for just one completed reproduction windshield assembly.

Let me guess ~
5-6 K ?
For ONE windshield~
Am I correct ?

And his parts do NOT always fit together exact & correctly for those prices; from what I have heard at antique boat shows.
They are cast, machined & plated in Mexico I believe.
He is a mega bucks guy with bigger mega bucks customers. $$$$$.
You should see all the patterns he has !
He has been in this Vintage Runabout hardware business since the early 70s.

Heck~~~ he charges $1200. for a stinking reproduction Chris~Craft bowlight !

[Planetwarmer]

I like the comp cobra windscreens. You may be able to incorporate this into your design. Here are 3 of the original "comp" style, and 2 of a cut down version of the entire windscreen.

[Greg Guimond]

Interesting 'warmer. There certainly is no lack of creativity out there. Here is another approach using the "Brooklands" style screens. I have come to find out that even within the "Brooklands" screens, it looks like there are a few levels of materials quaility being used by vendors out there. For example, I asked one vendor, "are the frames steel?" ......he says, "yes they are but a magnet will not stick to them"!

[Ghost]

The full-width comp-cobra windshield looks like it would be pretty cool, if you could duplicate it.

That said, of all the various styles kicked around and mocked-up, I think this one looks really "right" to me. Though, I'd need someone to photoshop it onto the Classic to know if it really worked.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65082&d=1308449615

[Greg Guimond]

I agree but where can I buy them? Here is the best I can do for mock up. Axel is the master blaster when it comes to real photoshop brilliance.

[silverghost]

Greg~
There is a guy in the U.K. that makes these Brooklands screens along with Banjo Bluemel Banjo steering wheels for early MG , & Jags etc.
He can custom make any width you may need .
My late Father had a custom set made for very little more than your quaoted prices.
With glass included.
If Dad were here he would have know the name.
The name begins with a K and ends with Engineering.
I will try to look it up for you ?

[silverghost]

Greg~
Here you go~

John Kimble Engineering LTD

He has all the ORIGINAL Brooklands Windscreen tooling & Brooklands Banjo Steering Wheel Molds etc.

A number of years ago Dad had him custom build a set of windscreens for our Rolls~Royce Silver Ghost Gentleman's Mahogany Boat-Tailed Skiff Speedster restoration.

Here is his web link~

http://www.johnkimble.co.uk/main.htm

[Greg Guimond]

That is interesting Brad. I will mail him to see what the options are for a wider screen. Do you think he will have a choice British descriptive for me if I ask if he might emboss "DONZI" into the frame instead of what is there normally, "Brooklands" ? Here is a pic......thanks for the efforts.

[Greg Guimond]

Here are some additional useless facts ...........

Of the two vendors in the US that supply the "Bugatti Style" windscreens, one, Fish Brothers, did not reply to my request for prices and info on there product. The second, California Classic Boats, was very responsive. They happily responded to my request on a Sunday with price and lead time. I can buy there "Bugatti Style" dual windscreens (design from the 40's Chris Craft Custom) for ..........I chit you not.......$6,603 without glass. This is the type of pricing you get when you deal with a NorCal vendor whose clients tend to have a bit of Petrus with lunch. The best part is that lead time is two months but you can choose from either 26" or 28" widths. Here is a pic of the product........

[Greg Guimond]

Next down the price ladder is a possible option that starts as a windshield for a '32 Ford. A domestic vendor www.roadsters.com (http://www.roadsters.com) sells a "rodware" windshield option. Dave Mann is the owner and is based in Phoenix. He has not told me yet if he would sell to me, something about "smelly two stroke, and FUBAR blue smoke" but if he does the price with glass is $1,695. I am hoping he will bless me with dimensions tomorrow but that might be asking a lot. It reminded me of being the odd man out on the board with all the BBC guys LOL. Here is a picture of his piece......not the dual screen look that I want so but it is an option, even as a possible donor.

[Greg Guimond]

Further down the cost ladder, I hope, will be my friend from Great Britain........Mr Kimble. I'm thinking he can build a custom set of 25" wide "Brooklands" aeroscreens for $1,000USD including VAT. Am I dreaming? Of course even if he will build them they will be in aluminum which presents issues.

[Marlin275]

This one looks damn good
and seems Donzi Classic . . .
the first ones were goofy big
and this is the right proportion to the boat . . .
http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65103&d=1308546198

[Greg Guimond]

When you say, "the first one's", which do you mean exactly?

[Greg Guimond]

The last and least expensive option is to buy a set of "pot metal" screens from Moss Motors at a whopping $99 each.........

[silverghost]

Greg~
Most of Moss Motors parts are made in China & Mexico.

Art at Cal. Classics makes each and every part to order.
Thus the very long delivery time.
He has no stock on hand but does have tons of casting patterns he made from original hardware.
His prices~~~
Well ~~~What can I say ?
He caters to boats typically worth $80 K and up to a Million $ .
He was one of the very first to offer correct Antique & vintage boat hardware for these boats way back in the 70s when mahogany runabout boat collecting first started to become popular.

[Marlin275]

When you say, "the first one's", which do you mean exactly?

Greg

The ones Donzi installed on the 60's boats like this
they were overkill
and out of proportion to the boat . . .

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65151&d=1308713076


This looks like what they should have used . . .

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=65103&d=1308546198

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks Marlin, now I understand.

So here is how the options are looking so far,

$6,603 -California Custom Boats; $1,695 -Roadsters; ? -Kimble Engineering; $99 -Moss Motors

[Greg Guimond]

I had a nice exchange with Mr. Kimble and his Brooklands style windscreens are only 12" wide! Next week he is going to see whether it would be feasible to take two and fab a single 24" wide unit and get back to me. I would have thought it was easier to get this small feat accomplished, but so far not the case. I also thought about going simple with a single width windshield like the one in the pic below, but I think dual screens look cooler and less clunky. Maybe I should ask Hornet Marine if they will build them LOL.

[Greg Guimond]

As I have noodled the concept, I'm thinking the quick disconnect approach will work out. The fender clips are super strong and have a substantial tab as a part of there fabrication. I'm not sure if they would look better in front of, or behind the windscreens and that would need to be figured out as the pins would have to be welded to whatever screen is chosen so as to be permanent. After all there is going to be some pretty significant wind pressure on them. I guess the deck would need to also be reinforced at the pin's hole location so as to not cause spiders :(

More tidbits and nibbles to deal with as the frames could be steel and the pins are already 316. Then you would have to plate the screens unless you did them in 316. And then there is the difference in color between SS and highly polished chrome :nilly::nilly: :boggled:

[Greg Guimond]

:outtahere:Designing the hull was way easier then this PITA screen mini project!

[GBond]

I wonder if they come in prescription?


Ha! :biggrin.:

[Greg Guimond]

You meant Ha Ha :yes:

[Planetwarmer]

As I have noodled the concept, I'm thinking the quick disconnect approach will work out. The fender clips are super strong and have a substantial tab as a part of there fabrication. I'm not sure if they would look better in front of, or behind the windscreens and that would need to be figured out as the pins would have to be welded to whatever screen is chosen so as to be permanent. After all there is going to be some pretty significant wind pressure on them. I guess the deck would need to also be reinforced at the pin's hole location so as to not cause spiders :(

More tidbits and nibbles to deal with as the frames could be steel and the pins are already 316. Then you would have to plate the screens unless you did them in 316. And then there is the difference in color between SS and highly polished chrome :nilly::nilly: :boggled:

I saw some cool hood pins at the Shelby meet last week. They are a quick disconnect. You push the center in, and it lifts out.

Here is an example on this site..

http://gbodyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=182553

[Greg Guimond]

Holy ****ski 'warmer..........that is the mother of all hood pins site! Checking it out now, thanks for the post :)

[Greg Guimond]

Maybe best to bend the glass .......

[Planetwarmer]

Holy ****ski 'warmer..........that is the mother of all hood pins site! Checking it out now, thanks for the post :)

There is also the same design only smaller (ie air cleaner quick release, etc)

[Greg Guimond]

'warmer I have an email into them now to see what might work for my application. The one thing I noticed was that there was never really a mention of the product using 316SS. Perhaps they are using SS, but I need to find out the specifics. It is a very complete product line to say the least so we'll see what they come back with.

I am going to use 1.25" 316SS highly polished as the frame material. The challenge will be if I take it to the next level and have a compound bend applied to the base frame piece. My thought is that the deck of the 16 "may" have a slight crown to it so I would like the base frame piece to mimic that. I also might want the base frame piece to also be bent to follow the slight radius of the dashboard. Thus there will be a vertical AND a horizontal bend required for the 24" base pieces. I have found that it has not been easy to find a shop equipped with the bending machines. The fabrication is pretty straight up, but when you add the dual bends and curved glass versus flat glass it becomes a larger challenge.

I'm getting there.......slowly but getting there :cool!:

[silverghost]

Greg~
How about I just send you two pair of nice WW I Army Air Corps reproduction open cockpit aviator's goggles.
My cousins who own & run Philadelphia Jet Center Airport F.B.O. have a friend with a Stearman bi-plane trainer "The Cannibal Queen" that sells them for folks who take rides around the Philly skies with him.
He also sells the soft leather flight helmets.

Here is the web link for "The Cannibal Queen" Stearman

http://www.biplaneridesoverphiladelphia.com/html/thecannibalqueen.html

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks Brad, but I already have two pairs of those for the rumble seat occupants.

[Greg Guimond]

I never was aware that when working with chanel you can either "bend" or "roll" the steel. It turns out that to do what I want, I need a shop that is equipped to do both. Many shops are set up for pipe, but far fewer for angle, channel, and box. Then when you add to the mix using 316SS you narrow the field even more. I'm hopeful I found a shop that can "do it all". The pic below is of one of there "rollers". I'm to talk with them next week and try and convince them to help out the little guy with a piss ant project. :crossfing:

[Greg Guimond]

Here is another pic of the shops work. Pretty incredible, done in 304.

[Greg Guimond]

I'm upping my costs by going curved but ............

[Greg Guimond]

THEDONZ33 was good enough to take a few shots of his OEM windshield to get a feel for metal widths.......and I missed out on a used set of screens

[Greg Guimond]

But I took the screens picture and modified them a bit in my own humble way, then I sent them over to the man with the skills and he hooked me up big time :yes: He is going to move the screens outward to the edge of the deck for me and perhaps post them up. Big thanks goes out to :lightningAxel:lightning

[Greg Guimond]

I also had a good conversation with the fabrication shop. They made some interesting points, at least to me. They said having curved glass while being a bit more expensive would give the windscreen glass much more strength. They said that would be needed anyway given the speeds involved. While they liked the curve I sent, they think it is probably a bit too much and I would like the look of less bend in the design. They also suggested a heavier glass like 1/2" to give the screens a more high end look. They understand, and are pretty sure they can adapt my quick disconnect approach provided the pins themselves are beefy enough. They asked for more pictures and I sent them the one below as well as others. They said one of the tricky parts would be making the base piece so that it not only conforms to the 16 deck crown, but also conforms with whatever slant angle I want the screens at. I have only given a little thought to angle but I understand there point and had not considered it before.

[Greg Guimond]

THEDONZ33 also took a height measurement of his factory windshield.......8" high with a lot of slant. I'm having a hard time deciding how high the glass should be for the best look although I believe they need to be higher then the factory's 8". I also have to decide what angle the rake should be set at?

[Greg Guimond]

Have been fiddling with the windscreen angle. This pic may have the right "look" to it.........

[Greg Guimond]

Thanks again Axel for version 2 .........maybe the deck stripe is wider on this one.

[haines hunter v19r]

This is how they were released in Australia.

[Greg Guimond]

Draggin it back ........The crown on the 16's deck is more substantial then I might have thought. We took this template to send to the fab house and I used it to do a mock up. I'm thinking that I may follow the deck crown with the screens. I might also go a little bigger and use 30" wide instead of the 24" I had settled on a few months back. I just have to see how that 30" will work in the second mount location in front of the rumble seats.

[Scott Pearson]

67953

[mattyboy]

Greg,

I saw an austin healy on Barrett Jackson the small windshield was adjustable from straight up for the most protection then it could be swept back neat feature.

[biggiefl]

What about one made from fabric with an internal frame...kinda like an underwire bra. Lightweight and could snap on and off easily....just like High school.

[Ghost]

<hijack>

Not to be confused with "lightweight and could snap off easily." Oddly enough, also a lot like high school. ;)

</hijack>

[biggiefl]

Back then we were facinated with breasts...now Donzis. Both are sexy and fun to play with. I think my boat was cheaper. :yes:

[Ghost]

LOL, you know the old saying. ("If it floats, flies or F###s, RENT, don't buy.") :)

Okay, I swear I won't hijack this again.

[Greg Guimond]

Matty,
I'm not sure the swivel will work given the amount of crown a the 16 deck has in it. I'm moving toward a snug fit at the base of the windscreens. I have to do some mock-ups on the glass in one of our bathrooms to fiddle with things. It turns out you can draw right on the glass with an erase marker.

[Greg Guimond]

The screens will end up something like these...............

[silverghost]

Greg~

I'm glad you finally gave all us forum members an inside look at your real " In House Design Studio".

Do you also use the bathtub as a prototype model wave test tank for the 16 Outboard Surface Tension ?

You've got some pretty fancy tile work in there !

[joseph m. hahnl]

http://files.sharenator.com/coconut_lime_wierd_fruit-s500x397-37957-580.jpg

[Greg Guimond]

Brad, hmmmmm now you have me thinking :lightning

[mattyboy]

Greg,

the healey looks to have a decent crown too. not sure on the mechanics but it looks cool as hell swept back instead of straight up.

[Greg Guimond]

I agree Matty, it does look super cool. I gave some thought of how I might hinge my screens to create any amount of angle I wanted, but I don't think it can be done and still look like something given I want them to have quick disconnects.

[Greg Guimond]

Draggin it back to the top ..........

I was able to locate a very competent glass shop and because they were so backed up it then took about 4 months to actually get a meaninful price for a set of custom fabb'd windscreens. The can curve the glass, then laminate it, then curve the 316SS and properly fabricate the gussets for the quick release pins I would like to use. Probably use 1" U channel base and 3/4" sides, highly polished. They actually have an 18 Classic deck on site from when they used to do the windshileds for Donzi many years ago, and the template that I sent them was a fit to the in house deck's radius so that was comforting.

Does anyone have any ideas how much something like this should cost and any other sources of who can do the work?

[Greg Guimond]

I was amazed at how hard it was to find a shop that could do both the metal work, and the bent glass all in one. There has to be more then one in the country so I am going to try and post on a couple of other sites to see what I can come up with. I really do not want polycarb or plastic but I may have no choice if I can't drive the cost down a bit.

[Greg Guimond]

I ordered this sample off Ebay for $60 to give me an idea on size and scale for the project ............

[silverghost]

Greg~
www.greatlakesskipper.com has quite a variety of surplus shaped polycarb & plexiglass acrylic windscreens like you just posted.
You might want to check-them-out.

Custom bending tempered safety glass is a very expensive process. The necessary tooling, jigs, & ovens needed to do this custom bending process make it almost cost prohibitive for small production runs; & especially small glass shops...
The big money is in the custom tooling, jigs, & set-up costs.

[Greg Guimond]

Brad, you just hit the nail on the head. The reason there are so few shops is the technology and ovens required. I found a shop that has all the tooling AND can fab the metal. The work they have done is impressive but in speaking with the owner he really is only taking pity on me because he thinks my little project is cool and wants to help. Even so, the cost may just be toooooo much. I'm also giving Matty's idea another look to see if a screen from an Austin Healey 100 can be bought and used as a donor. Not much luck with that yet as I am finding out that the swivel windscreen is very rare. It is like all the stuff with this project.........nothing is coming easy

[Greg Guimond]

I think I like following the same curvature of the factory handrail. Hmmmmmm.................

[Greg Guimond]

I got the donor screen in and placed it into the in house design studio for a look ..........certainly worth the $62 to get a feel for size and scale overall.

[woobs]

Greg,
Could you please copy that template out on paper and send it to me (For my 18)?
Pretty please? :)
Sean

[Greg Guimond]

Email me directly at greg.guimond1@gmail.com woobs.