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View Full Version : OK, forget SuperCharging, I want to rebuild my SBC



pipnit
12-16-2010, 03:20 PM
I was toying with the idea of putting a super charger on but I think I want to stay with an N.A. motor. This is what I have right now, roller rockers, cast iron heads, 9.5:1, cast intake, 750cfm ebrock carb, OEM "logs", trs 280. The motor as of 150 hours ago is a 355.
I am thinking of going with aluminum heads, which should lighten it up a little bit and get me to 10:1 without having to run race gas, an alu intake for weight (will this add power?) and maybe some cam work. I'm not sure what is in there right now for a cam. Should I move to a roller cam? How radical could or should I get with the cam? Anyone have info on different grinds? I don't think I want to throw any money at some custom headers, I'd be more interested in keeping the R's around 5500 and having a higher pitch prop and more speed! Any ideas, thoughts or critics are well appreciated.

gcarter
12-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Ther're some folks here that know a lot more than I about getting that last bit out of your engine, but here are some thoughts;
For not a lot, there're a number of reputable rebuilders that'll supply a dependable 383 that'll have a lot more potential. Aluminum heads are pretty expensive compared to any performance gains, especially considering you might have to add closed cooling. I understand good stock Vortec heads perform very well for the investment. A good used set of Stainless Marine exhaust will lose some weight AND gain some performance, plus add a lot of bling, and you might get a bargain on eBay.
An aluminum intake manifold will lose some weight and might gain some performance, some here will suggest which ones to look at, they can also make cam reccomendations.
have fun and good luck.

BUIZILLA
12-16-2010, 04:43 PM
keep the r's under 5200

fresh or salt?

head casting #'s now?

since you have a TRS if you use SSM exhaust you MUST have custom risers made... IMCO makes a nice setup and they sell a TRS drop riser, all of this should replace the logs.. measure twice before spending coin though..

budget????????????????

then we'll discuss the details

mrfixxall
12-16-2010, 04:52 PM
If it were me i would sell what you have and start over woth a 400 block and go from their. You have a trs and that eats hp to a point,you can easily squeeze 500 pump gas hp out of a 417 cid small block..

younger
12-16-2010, 04:56 PM
All in the combo, have a look at the major producers of heads afr, edelbrock. dart, world products, all make great packages to get a 400hp sbc. A decent exhaust will only help, glm has an aluminum kit that works well without spending a bundle. Comp cams has a good line of marine cams both roller and hyd flat tappet. Most of my combos have been 64cc head flat top slug, comp at 10.5 to 1 still pump gas with the aluminum heads. Run a dual plane rpm intake with a cam that has around 230 degrees @.050 and lift in the .500" range on flat tappet cam. Any more and reversion becomes a problem with stock type exhaust.

pipnit
12-16-2010, 05:26 PM
Thanks for the input. I've been told from a couple people that you don't really start to see the payoff with the custom exhaust until 5500+ rpm. Not sure if that's true or not but I believe a lot of what that guy says, he's pretty meticulous and has a 127mph NA warlock. What kind of dough would I be looking at for custom exhaust? I'm guessing five grand for nice double walled stainless? Not sure if that's where the money is best spent.
I run in fresh water. When I got the boat, the owner thought that the compression was 10.5:1 I rebuild the motor that winter and found the compression was almost at 12.750:1! Heat was never really an issue but the thing was beat to all he**. I was guessing I'm around 400hp right now, only because that's what the builder was thinking. I don't want to go with another block, want to keep this one, just hop it up. Was looking at some of the plug and play heads from Ebrock. I need to check the clearance I have under the hatch. Since this is a TRS boat, there is a hump on the hatch that I think will buy me some more room.

pipnit
12-16-2010, 05:28 PM
budget????????????????

then we'll discuss the details

Don't really have a budget. I'm just exploring ideas. I could go from mild to wild, it's easy to talk me in to things :) Also need to add a deadman leash on the boat this winter.

mrfixxall
12-16-2010, 05:43 PM
I dont think your @ 400 hp now..you may be choking the engine with the log exhaust..you can get a set of emi thunders from 1000.00 to 2300.00.. i run the emi's on mine with the aluminum riser(i got more torque from the dyno) vs the stainless steel risers..all you will nees is a s-pipe to go under the steering..i run the edelbrock 2.02 angle plug rpm series cylinder heads.i have a custom set of srp pistons which gives me 10.2-1 i also have 6.0'' compression,also i run 6.0'' Carrillo h beam rods and a bryant crank our of one of my old stock car engines...heads a re flowed and massaged,intake is a edelbrock air gap and a proform 750 cfm carb and a comp cam canshaft..motor dynoed @ 434 hp which was 10 yrs ago so im sure it lost a little hp over the years..the boat will do 68 mph with a 14x24 labbed ultra prop and tip toe into the 70's with a 14x 26 labbed ultra prop..
click on the 3rd link below and have at the vids.


BTW if thats your sparkplug's your using on your profile pic GET rid of them..chit fires will rob your hp..

BUIZILLA
12-16-2010, 08:10 PM
Don't really have a budget. I'm just exploring ideas. I could go from mild to wild, it's easy to talk me in to things :) Also need to add a deadman leash on the boat this winter. luv'n the no budget.... post a pic of your transom, I need to see the exh. outlet location

pipnit
12-16-2010, 09:07 PM
luv'n the no budget.... post a pic of your transom, I need to see the exh. outlet location

I will tomorrow when I go do a clay test for the intake. Right now I'm leaning towards 383 kit, some heads and will explore some headers.

MOP
12-16-2010, 09:27 PM
IMO the Gov has just passed 15% Alky in the gas be sure you do your homework, it is very easy for your dollars to go BANG if you push the envelope! You can keep things under control and still get more boat time and less dock time with a ton less sweat! I built a 383 for my 22 it is very mild by many peoples standards, but on a good day it will push it to 65.5. I have max dependability, great fuel economy and very tractable power throughout all ranges. Stuff a 400hp 383 in a much lighter 18 you would be in the low 70's, the 383 develops significant torque compared the 350.

Agin IMO

Phil

gero1
12-16-2010, 11:28 PM
i miss b.g on thread like this

younger
12-17-2010, 08:49 AM
If there is no budget stroke a check for a large cube small block motown 454 or the like. 600 hp all day long, these large ci sbc are down right awsome!

maddad
12-17-2010, 12:07 PM
Even if there is a budget, my last 406 cost about 4k, makes around 450hp and makes over 400lbs of torque just above idle. It also got 3mpg over this past summer, and I do not baby it. Start with as many ci's as you can.

Harris Performance
12-17-2010, 12:17 PM
We have built several 383's with great results. We have one of my 383's in a 22 eliminator daytona naturally aspirated that runs almost 90 on pump gas. Also did a 23 Eurosport with a 383 that ran 74 on GPS, we even have one in a 25 Bennington pontoon that runs 59 lol. There are a few internal tricks that need to be done to ensure the motor will live! I have a new 383 sitting here on the floor, and if you are interested, feel free to get in contact with me. Thanks Jeff Harris

pipnit
12-20-2010, 10:19 AM
OK, thanks for all the suggestions, input and advice. I am going to go with a 383, .40 over. I looked at doing the 406 but was told to steer clear of it with the stock block. I think I'll be happy with the 383, go full hydraulic roller, aluminum heads at 10:1 (should be ok with 89 octane) some aluminum edelbrock heads, and some exhaust.

Now that I'm going to be doing all this, I need to figure out which hydraulic external steering I need to go with. It looks like IMCO or Mayfair both make kits for the TRS drive.

mrfixxall
12-20-2010, 11:01 AM
OK, thanks for all the suggestions, input and advice. I am going to go with a 383, .40 over. I looked at doing the 406 but was told to steer clear of it with the stock block. I think I'll be happy with the 383, go full hydraulic roller, aluminum heads at 10:1 (should be ok with 89 octane) some aluminum edelbrock heads, and some exhaust.

Now that I'm going to be doing all this, I need to figure out which hydraulic external steering I need to go with. It looks like IMCO or Mayfair both make kits for the TRS drive.


Contact jamie at lakeside restorations,,he may have used hyd steering for a trs for ,i think :)

pipnit
12-20-2010, 05:51 PM
I did speak with Jamie. Even though he couldn't sell me any repop stickers last year, I still spoke with him, lol. Very nice guy. We chewed the fat for a few, told him what I'm trying to do, etc. I think I'm going to try to buy stuff from him if his pricing is inline simply because he offered some good advice, spent time on the phone with me and is part of this community.

So here is what I'm think, getting ready to put it in stone:

getting the EAGLE forged 383 stroker kit. This is a forged crank, forged pistons and forged H rods, good for more HP than I'll be making, that's for sure.

Edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, 10:1

Some tubular headers, right now looking at lightning. Will get more pricing once I get my measurements down.

I'm curious as to what kind of numbers I can expect? Not sure of what cam I'm going to run but it will be a full hydraulic roller top end. I'm trying to get close to 500hp with 89 octane, 36 degrees advance? Maybe I'm crazy or 500hp is a pipe dream. Hey, if I don't get there, I can always run some VP fuel and crank the advance up to 42 for a day! lol

Also going to get a hydraulic steering system. I was thinking dual rams, then figured one would be cool and now Jamie has me considering two again. Well, at least it's winter and I have some time to get my head straight.

Once we start doing things, I'll keep you guys posted. Kind of funny, I went to measure some things on the boat only to find a small leak on the pan so my timing is jsut right and now I can justify this! :pimp:

blackboat
12-20-2010, 06:31 PM
How fast do you WANT to go ???

mrfixxall
12-20-2010, 07:12 PM
Ditch the eagle stuff!!!! It's to heavy..too much rotating mass and to ballance it its going to take alot of weight..

Trust me on this, you want to look at the scat F43 crankshaft,thats if you have a 2 piece rear main seal..
http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/press_releases/F-43.html

Scat 4340 h-beam Q-lite 6'' in legnth.and their only 560grams..

pistons,srp/je #138093,,zero deck height and edelbrock rpm heads with a 70 cc chamber you will be a little over 10.2-1..
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/SRP/Chevy_SB/350_flat.aspx

If money is no object and dont spimp on the cam materal,you want pure k5 billit..
Call the cam god bob mandara @ marine kinetics..he know's his chit..call him and you will see what i mean but make sure you have all your ducks in a row,engine,what crank,rod legnth,deck height chamber volume,intake and exhaust cc numbers and head gasket thickness....
bob's #585-654-8583..

Keep this in mind,instead of spending all the money on a trs set up for the steering and all the trs stuff is gettinf scarce have you thought about converting to a bravo set up with either a blackhawk or a shorty..i think you will pick some speed their because of all the weight you pull out of the boat.

younger
12-20-2010, 08:54 PM
You will be tight to get edelbrock rpm smc heads to flow enough below 6000 rpm in stock form for 500 hp in a 383. Their roller package in a 383 is around 460hp. One of the perks to these small 170 cc intakes is they will produce a stronge velocity on the intake charge and produce some very good torque which is what you want.

BUIZILLA
12-20-2010, 09:37 PM
you will be tight to get edelbrock rpm smc heads to flow enough below 6000 rpm in stock form for 500 hp in a 383. Their roller package in a 383 is around 460hp......... +1

mrfixxall
12-20-2010, 10:28 PM
You will be tight to get edelbrock rpm smc heads to flow enough below 6000 rpm in stock form for 500 hp in a 383. Their roller package in a 383 is around 460hp. One of the perks to these small 170 cc intakes is they will produce a stronge velocity on the intake charge and produce some very good torque which is what you want.

that depends on which cam he uses,if he calls bob he will build the cam around the engine,they flow well over 200 @ .500 lift...nice part is their already set up for a roller cam..they also have a few new style heads which will give more but not needed in a marine application unless he plans on going past 6 k..

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/chevy/sb_perf_rpm2.shtml

The Hedgehog
12-21-2010, 01:27 AM
+1 on Fix's Eagle comment

blackboat
12-21-2010, 12:47 PM
If he wants an 80 mph + boat,he should take Mr fix original advice and start with a 400 block and think about replacing the TRS with a bravo drive,raise x dimension or put a shorty on it.
If he builds a 383 and leaves his trs on it,probably low to mid 70 boat.
Thus , plan speed first, then build to meet your speed goal
Just my 2 cents. :confused:

younger
12-21-2010, 09:24 PM
As staited before with the motown, if worried about the gm 400 castings the motown, dart are great offferings. Motown 415, 427sbc internally balanced, 6" rods, mahle coated manley slugs all the good parts to handle the stresses. Buy the short block put cam and lifters in hv oil pump, pan on, run a set of good aluminum heads 215cc intakes with rpm air gap intake 850 dp carb and your lightning headers. Can you now say power. Remember carry the weight carry the cubes, the motor riders for free!

LKSD
12-22-2010, 12:28 PM
I did speak with Jamie. Even though he couldn't sell me any repop stickers last year, I still spoke with him, lol. Very nice guy. We chewed the fat for a few, told him what I'm trying to do, etc. I think I'm going to try to buy stuff from him if his pricing is inline simply because he offered some good advice, spent time on the phone with me and is part of this community.
So here is what I'm think, getting ready to put it in stone:
getting the EAGLE forged 383 stroker kit. This is a forged crank, forged pistons and forged H rods, good for more HP than I'll be making, that's for sure.
Edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, 10:1
Some tubular headers, right now looking at lightning. Will get more pricing once I get my measurements down.
I'm curious as to what kind of numbers I can expect? Not sure of what cam I'm going to run but it will be a full hydraulic roller top end. I'm trying to get close to 500hp with 89 octane, 36 degrees advance? Maybe I'm crazy or 500hp is a pipe dream. Hey, if I don't get there, I can always run some VP fuel and crank the advance up to 42 for a day! lol
Also going to get a hydraulic steering system. I was thinking dual rams, then figured one would be cool and now Jamie has me considering two again. Well, at least it's winter and I have some time to get my head straight.
Once we start doing things, I'll keep you guys posted. Kind of funny, I went to measure some things on the boat only to find a small leak on the pan so my timing is jsut right and now I can justify this! :pimp:

It was good talking with you the other day Geoff.. I look forward to working with you at some point.. ;) :)

A couple good points have also been made here in the meantime.. ;)

The trs while a good drive, is a bit heavier & more cumbersome than a B1 set up. loosing that unit and converting will reduce weight and some drag. However the downside is further expense. Potential funds that you maybe able to allocate on other more immediate needs if your drive and tranny is in sound shape. It all depends on budget and preferences.

Also it is true that when you have less weight you lower the rotating mass is, you can see sometimes some power benefits.. Again depends on how far you want to go. However more important than the crank weight from brand to brand would be what you select for compression ratio, head set up,valve train, cam, intake, fuel system and exhaust from the engines perspective. Also Dont forget what fuel you will have available to you where you boat, I know that was a concern of yours when we spoke.. ;) :)

:) Jamie / Lakeside

pipnit
12-25-2010, 08:27 AM
Thanks guys. I'm trying to tap 70 and anything over that is just great.

I spoke with a couple people who are in the know. I don't thing there is any reason NOT to go with Eagle stuff. The engine builder who is second generation and has built a LOT of small blocks said he likes their stuff and has never had a problem aside from their balancing. My friend who owns a speed shop has had warranty issues with SCAT on three different occasions and now two of his three warehouses refuse to carry Scat. He said if I wanted to get a really wicked crank there are brand$ to look at. That not what I'm really after.
Mr fix, thanks for the info on the cam guy. My friend with the Warlock has one of his cams and he did say he is the man.
I'm going to keep the TRS partly to maintain some of the originality of the boat. Something about that big honking drive that I think is cool. Well be pulling the motor shortly.
Jamie, I'll be in touch thanks for the advice.

pipnit
12-25-2010, 08:29 AM
Btw Jamie you're right, my main constraint is what kind of gas I am going to run, 89. I suppose when I want to squeeze it all out I could run some good gas and increase the advance. I'm planning on 10:1.

gcarter
12-25-2010, 11:28 AM
About a year ago, Griz bought a refurbished Konrad. These are wonderful drives that are a bolt on for TRs.
Additionally they are much more hydrodynamic and shorter than a TRS.
I think Griz paid around $6K for it.

pipnit
12-26-2010, 10:29 AM
About a year ago, Griz bought a refurbished Konrad. These are wonderful drives that are a bolt on for TRs.
Additionally they are much more hydrodynamic and shorter than a TRS.
I think Griz paid around $6K for it.


Wow thanks. I didn't even know there was a bolt on replacement. I think I'll just proceed and if I'm not happy with the results, explore one of these drives.

mrfixxall
12-26-2010, 02:48 PM
Thanks guys. I'm trying to tap 70 and anything over that is just great.

I spoke with a couple people who are in the know. I don't thing there is any reason NOT to go with Eagle stuff. The engine builder who is second generation and has built a LOT of small blocks said he likes their stuff and has never had a problem aside from their balancing. My friend who owns a speed shop has had warranty issues with SCAT on three different occasions and now two of his three warehouses refuse to carry Scat. He said if I wanted to get a really wicked crank there are brand$ to look at. That not what I'm really after.
Mr fix, thanks for the info on the cam guy. My friend with the Warlock has one of his cams and he did say he is the man.
I'm going to keep the TRS partly to maintain some of the originality of the boat. Something about that big honking drive that I think is cool. Well be pulling the motor shortly.
Jamie, I'll be in touch thanks for the advice.


They all had problems in the beginning with the micron finish on the crankshafts,,since then they all addressed the issue..its also up to the machinist to check the finish on the crankshafts and polish it to the proper microns..in the past i have seen more problems with eagle stuff then any..also check out k1 technologies,merc uses the rods in their 525's..

http://www.k1technologies.com/

LKSD
12-26-2010, 06:36 PM
We have been a Konrad dealer for many years. We have had good results with them. It made a nice difference on a 33' Apache we redid and installed a complete Konrad set up in with their gimbles..

So Yes I agree, the Konrad 540 is a nice alternative & it is offered in a shorter height. They are more durable inside than a trs, however it is not a straight simple bolt on. You need to at a minimum replace the gimble's bell housing and depending on the tranny you have there are also some other mods that may need to be done. Sometimes we can latch on to a reman or demo unit for a really nice price, otherwise they are quite a bit more $$...

;) Jamie / Lakeside

pipnit
01-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Hey, guys, it's been a few since I've chimed in. The motor is now out of the boat and at the machinist's place and the drive is off and apart.
MrFixall, it turns out that my friend has worked closely with Bob Madara at Marine Kinetics on his monster big block and knows him well. I've been talking to Bob for the past month or so and he's helping me with the build.
I've decided to go with a Forged Callie's rotating assembly. Right now we're just breaking the motor down to see what condition it is, what the deck height is, etc. etc. Once we have everything inspected, I'm going to order the right stuff. I'm going to use some AFR heads with Inconel exhaust valves along with a cam from Marine Kinetics. As far as the exhaust goes, after I get the motor back in, we're going to get some Stainless Marine Manifolds, get them on then do the measuring for the tail pipes and I should be good. I'm also in the process of adding dual ram full hydraulic steering, a nice and probably required feature with the power I'm going to be at.
Does anyone know where I can find HD gimbal pins for the TRS drive? I know they exist but don't know where. BTW, also ordered a new skeg to weld on to the bottom of the drive, only about 1/3 is there from shenannigans of the previous owner.