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DonziJon
12-10-2010, 06:39 PM
Thought some of you guys might find this interestting, even though ..Ahem: It's a Blowboat. It's Engineering...and it's about SPEED. The 2010 America's Cup match already held in Valencia, Spain. ......Flying the "Center" hull in a trimaran is unheard of. WE WON. :nilly: DJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mapVhW93dNY&feature=player_embedded

Want to see the whole thing..Click on Race #1. It's about 45 minutes.

http://bmworacleracing.com/en/interactive/videos_2009/index.html?track.refer=/en/index.html&track.type=home

Marlin275
12-10-2010, 07:54 PM
My dad built a 37 Piver/Gabeler Trimaran in 1963
Glad to see them move to the top as
the fastest sailboats in the world!
BMW reported that they hit 32 miles per hour (28 kn) boat speed in a 10 knot reported wind speed.
She could probably hit 50kts if the rig didn't break first?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39991&d=1225229066

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60279&d=1292033093

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60284&d=1292042346

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60283&d=1292042346

zelatore
12-10-2010, 10:08 PM
I'm not a blowboater, but anybody who likes speed can appreciate these things. Just imagine the amount of stress on the structure of the mast and the outriggers to fly the center hull. That's pretty crazy!

Here's hoping the SF city council doesn't shoot itself in the foot and we get the race out here. :crossfing: I wonder what the course would look like? Certainly they'd include both the bay and the ocean, but then again I know next to nothing about sailing.

DannyK
12-10-2010, 10:41 PM
Whoa ! I've never seen the center hull fly before, that's POWER ! I've had a couple dozens boats, both power and sail. I've built both too and worked for Tahiti Ski Boats in the 70's. I raced various sailboats offshore and cruised too. I've felt much more power in sailboats than in Nitrous fed big block ski-boats. I love BOATS. Power,sail,kayak,canoe and currently have one of each.They each have a specific purpose. You can't take a Donzi down the Buffalo National River and a sailboat is the best long distance cruiser. Thanks for posting the pic and video !

jl1962
12-11-2010, 07:00 AM
We've had sailboat threads here before:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54965&highlight=lhydroptere

But in general, us sailors keep as low a profile as us Democrats! Wait I think it's the same group! *
:)

Serioulsy - kite boarders have topped 60mph over a measured distance as has L'hydroptere. The globe is shrinking too - 50 days has fallen for circumnavigators and sights are now set on breaking 40 days. The 24 hour record is now over 900 nautical miles!

BMW/Oracle was a cool toy and very powered up (the wing sail is amazing and the technology is trickling both down and up from C-class and A-class cats to foiling Moths). No one thought they could win in a light air venue - talk about sandbagging. Marlin - the boat did sail 3 X the true wind speed and that was sailing downwind! SF Bay will be a great venue - if they can get the land from the city.

Ice boats can sail 5 or 6 X TWS. The ice boat record is believed to be over 140 mph and hasn't been broken in 50+ years. Certainly better technology exists today, but no one is crazy enough to try!

:boat:

-JL

* All in good fun. For the record, I'm a registered Independent.

gcarter
12-11-2010, 08:40 AM
Don't get me wrong here.....I appreciate what's going on from a technology standopoint.
But when you get away from monohulls, the lucky person in the right position is gonna run off and hide.
The America's cup has always been about technology AND strategy!

At least that's the way it's been except for the first race w/the America being the only boat in sight at the end of the race, and the other time it was raced in multis.........Oh!, that's right, in that race, the other team showed up in a monohull!

MOP
12-11-2010, 09:17 AM
I have always wished they would lock in on one design with very tight regulation making the cup truly a race governed only by skill!

jl1962
12-11-2010, 09:29 AM
Phil -
I agree 100% w/ you and George. One-design is best and the 2007 Valencia Match in the so called Version 5 IACC boats came very close to a box rule. Great racing and very tactical. The America's Cup has always been a design race though as well as a test of sailors. With very few exceptions, the race has been over before the first gun. I'd prefer a return to tighter, tactical racing but those w/ the gold make the rules!
-Jay

Marlin275
12-11-2010, 10:07 AM
I have always wished they would lock in on one design with very tight regulation making the cup truly a race governed only by skill!

Phil, they are doing exactly what you wish!
The sport is going multihull with tight rules to return it to the skill and tech of today.

The America’s Cup has pioneered yacht design for 159 years.
Monohulls are slower technology.
Multihulls are always going to be faster based on wetted surface.

http://www.americascup.com/2010/09/new-america’s-cup-era-begins-with-wingsail-catamaran

“The AC72 Class adds a new dimension to America’s Cup design and technology,” said Pete Melvin, a chief architect of the rule and champion multihull sailor. “The AC72 will place exacting demands on the helmsman, crew and support team that the vast majority of us who call ourselves ‘weekend racers’ could never hope to develop.”

The new class of America’s Cup catamaran is a tightly defined “box rule.” Certain parameters have been set, such as overall length, beam, displacement and sail area. Other factors are limited to keep the competition close across all wind speeds.

So that no team would have an unfair advantage by creating the rule, US SAILING and Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering authored the rule.

jl1962
12-11-2010, 10:25 AM
The AC72 (and AC45) boats will be cool and fast, but multihulls won't make for good match racing IMO. Traditional match racing skills like dial ups, dial downs, tacking duels, gybing duels, defending when ahead, attacking when behind etc..all won't matter as much in fast cats. Right now I'm skeptical, maybe I'll come around - Pete Melvin's a good guy.

DonziJon
12-11-2010, 12:39 PM
In a nutshell, up until 1983 when the US lost the Cup for the first time, the deed of gift for the Americas Cup mandated that ALL engineering, materials, equipment, design work, construction, and Skipper, etc. had to originate IN the country presenting the challenge.

The US, (read ..New York Yacht Club) was under extreme pressure to ease up on the rules to MAKE IT FAIR. After all, the US had All the Good Stuff.....AND had Never Lost. It was time to level the playing field. :yes:

In the meantime, Australia, the '83 challenger, and eventual winner, pushed the rules. The (hated) NYYC pretty much kept their mouths shut while a foreign born designer went to Holland for engineering (hydrodynamic)expertise, to design the Austrailian Challenger.

As an aside, 1983 was the first time in post war AC history that Sparkman & Stevens had not designed the defender. It was also the first time that Hood Sails had not been used on the defender. The rest is history. :nilly:DJ

zelatore
12-11-2010, 12:43 PM
We've had sailboat threads here before:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54965&highlight=lhydroptere

But in general, us sailors keep as low a profile as us Democrats! Wait I think it's the same group! *
:)


Careful there ... they already think I'm a Democrat around here; next thing you'll have them thinking I secretly love sailing! :wink:

(for the record, I too am registered Independent and have never owned a sailboat!)

DonziJon
12-11-2010, 12:52 PM
I think I need need one of these. :yes: :yes: DJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFGS7YCDk3Y

HOWARD O
12-11-2010, 02:38 PM
I don't care if it's a fag rag or not, that's amazing stuff!

gcarter
12-11-2010, 02:54 PM
I think I need need one of these. :yes: :yes: DJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFGS7YCDk3Y

Did anyone notice the outers are stepped?
They look amazingly like seaplane pontoons!

Marlin275
12-12-2010, 09:39 AM
The Disputes in this Great Race continue . . .
Todays News on the Top BlowBoats

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/sports/global/12bertarelli.html?pagewanted=2&tntemail0=y&_r=1&emc=tnt

One Billionaire Bows Out of the Next America’s Cup

Bertarelli, an experienced multihull sailor, said his issue was not with multihulls but with the wing and the terms of engagement, which he said could allow Ellison, whose billions exceed his, to spend whatever was required to ensure victory.

“The use of a wing instead of a traditional sail plan,” Bertarelli said, “is going to make it very difficult from a design standpoint, very impractical from a logistics standpoint and, more importantly, very, very expensive for any team to participate.”

He said he was convinced that recreational sailors would not make use of wing sails in their own yachts. “I think it’s the wrong choice, and it’s a choice they made on their own mainly for one reason: to be guaranteed a lead advantage and to make it as difficult as they can for anyone else to win,” Bertarelli said of Ellison’s team.

DonziJon
12-12-2010, 11:14 AM
One of the "Other" results of the loss of the Cup in 1983 was a further relaxing of the rules. I believe during the era of the 12s, (1958-1987) the skipper and sailors manning the yachts were considered "Amateurs". ie: No Hired Guns. It was a sporting match between gentleman. :yes:

There was never any Advertising, or Sponsorship allowed. All the money required for a challenge or defense came from donations within Yacht Clubs and their members. I'm not sure whether outside donations were allowed or not.

Wiith the allowance of advertising and sponsorship, the money pool expanded exponentially and the cost of the boats went up along with it.

It seems like the latest owner of the Cup makes the rules for the next challenge.. that hasn't changed. The NYYC was in charge of the rules for 132 years. :bonk:

Marlin275
12-19-2010, 11:57 AM
Art of Deal Eludes Ellison in Cup Talks
By JONATHAN WEBER
Published: December 18, 2010

Robert Galbraith/Reuters

Larry Ellison, the Oracle chief executive, has leveraged his skills as a dealmaker to become a dominant force in the technology business and the richest man in the Bay Area.

But his negotiations with the City of San Francisco over staging the America’s Cup sailing competition have been anything but artful. Rather, the same arrogance and overreach that caused him to lose out on buying the Golden State Warriors basketball team have been on display.

It seems that what works in the software world, where Oracle just reported blowout earnings and its stock hit a 10-year high, is not what works in big-time sports. And if the next America’s Cup happens somewhere other than San Francisco Bay, it will be Mr. Ellison’s loss.

Mr. Ellison won the sailing trophy last February, and with it the right to choose the venue and write the rules for the next Cup series. Initial negotiations with San Francisco produced a preliminary agreement in September to hold the races here in 2013.

But that deal met stiff resistance from Chris Daly, a San Francisco supervisor, and other local officials who declared it was too expensive — a taxpayer giveaway to a billionaire.

A new plan, much cheaper for the city and much better for competitors and spectators, won unanimous support from the Board of Supervisors last week. But that was only after the lead negotiator for Mr. Ellison’s BMW Oracle Racing told the city that the new offer was unacceptable, and that if it didn’t cough up more incentives and guarantees, the regatta would go elsewhere.

The city did make some further revisions before the vote but didn’t meet all of the demands, so it’s up to Mr. Ellison to make a choice. He’s now shopping the new San Francisco deal to Newport, R.I. — arguably a bad-faith maneuver in itself. Rome may be in the mix, too. A decision is expected by the end of the year.

The benefits of holding the Cup in San Francisco are so obvious that it’s surprising there has been such a fuss. The Bay is all but made for big-boat sailing, its natural amphitheater promising to make the event a much more dramatic — and lucrative — media spectacle than in the past. That’s a big lure for corporate sponsors.

Mr. Ellison lives here. His team sails under the flag of the Golden Gate Yacht Club. The America’s Cup is as much about high-tech as it is about seamanship, and there could hardly be a better showcase than the shores of Silicon Valley. Already, a Who’s Who of the San Francisco philanthropic circuit has signed on to help raise hundreds of millions for the event.

It’s conceivable, in theory, that a huge subsidy from another city could result in more short-term profits for the America’s Cup Event Authority, the entity established by Mr. Ellison to stage the races and hopefully create a long-term structure to promote competitive sailing. But the San Francisco deal — which includes facilities improvements, long-term development rights to attractive waterfront locations, and serious fund-raising support — is nothing to sneeze at. It’s almost unprecedented in this city for elected officials, business leaders, environmentalists and community groups to unite behind a big project like this.

Mr. Ellison’s team, which declined requests for comment, would say it’s the city that fouled things up by backing out of the original agreement. But officials are obliged to do what’s best for the city. One would think someone with Mr. Ellison’s skills would recognize that trying to squeeze the last dime out of city taxpayers is not the same game as pushing Hewlett-Packard to the wall in a business deal.

People familiar with the Warriors sale say Mr. Ellison’s initial bid was lower than others, and that he then came in with a slightly higher bid after the deadline, only to whine when it wasn’t accepted. In this case, too, he seems to have misread the deal dynamics in a way he never does in his day job.

Mr. Ellison is notoriously abrasive and not very generous locally with his money. If he dumps the Cup deal because he didn’t get everything he wanted, he’ll alienate virtually every public official and major private philanthropist in town — and undermine his effort to make the competition something more than an overblown rich men’s yacht race. Strange behavior for one of the world’s most successful businessmen.

Jonathan Weber is the editor in chief of The Bay Citizen.
jweber@baycitizen.org

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/us/19bcweber.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail0=y

DonziJon
12-19-2010, 02:13 PM
Even as a resident of RI for 40+ years and a lifelong sailor, I think San Fransisco offers much more than Newport for an Americas Cup event. There is no high ground in Newport from which to watch the event...never has been.

To see the race you had to go out on a charter boat and watch the race from Miles away. The race boats were a Spec on the horizon. In 1970 (I think) I went out on a Navy destroyer to see the races. In those days, typically four destroyers would take civilian guests..VIPs, and the Rif Raf by lottery, out to see the races. We were out there all day.

The ships would anchor outside the race course, along with all the other spectator boats. You had to be high above the water to see anything at all. The race boats would race upwind for as long as it would take to get to the windward mark...sailing Away from the spectator boats. An hour or two later the boats would "come back". Totally boring..even for someone interested in the actual racing. Binoculars were useless.

Newport has the best wind you can find anywhere on the east coast..and predictable.....BUT Nothing like San Francisco. San Francisco would be Spectacular sailing because when the wind comes, it's a "Buster". :wink: Lets break some masts kind of wind. :nilly: Multi-hulls like wind.

In the old days, there was always more than one country challenging and they came for the entire summer. They raced and "tuned", in preliminaries all summer until there was only ONE foreign Challenger..and ONE American Defender.

Then in late September the Final Best Of Seven. :yes:

Marlin275
12-20-2010, 02:52 PM
THAT'S NOT SMOKE, THAT'S FIRE
Rhode Island's top economic development official said Sunday that
representatives of BMW Oracle Racing and Golden Gate Yacht Club have
expressed an interest in holding the next America's Cup in Newport but
haven't made a final decision. Newport is vying with San Francisco for the
right to host the world's most prestigious sailing competition in 2013.

Negotiators have spent the last week in Rhode Island, and the state economic
development corporation's executive director, Keith Stokes, told The
Associated Press on Sunday that "everything we've presented has resonated
very strongly with them."

Stokes said he would present to the EDC board on Monday a letter from
America's Cup negotiators expressing an interest in holding the event in
Newport, about 30 miles south of Providence, and hammering out an agreement
with the state. He declined to release the letter ahead of the meeting but
said he would be joined by GGYC board member Tom Ehman.

"I think we've come up with several options that are pretty compelling,"
Stokes said. "Newport's simply just gone out and played its best game."
Stokes has said that hosting the racing in Colonial-era Newport could
require as little as $10 million in improvements, a small fraction of what
changes would cost in San Francisco. Newport's proposal has centered on Fort
Adams State Park, which offers panoramic views of Newport Harbor.

Gov.-elect Lincoln Chafee believes Newport is the natural site for the
America's Cup but it will be important to weigh the costs of hosting the
competition against the required infrastructure improvements, his spokesman
Mike Trainor said. -- USA Today, full story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-12-19-america--cup_N.htm

CONFUSION: While the America's Cup is intended to be a challenge between
clubs, the inmates have fully taken over the asylum. How odd is it to think
about Golden Gate Yacht Club, which is located on San Francisco Bay,
defending their trophy elsewhere? But when BMW Oracle selected the Club to
represent them, the Club agreed to relinquish the power of venue selection
to the team.

FIRE: There was some bad blood between the BMW Oracle team and San Francisco
when the City finalized their bid. So when the team travelled to Newport,
RI, which had been removed from venue consideration in July, it was
initially viewed as a smoke screen to leverage their San Francisco deal.
However, sources in Newport say they are now convinced the team is seeking a
suitable agreement so they can hold the America's Cup somewhere other than
San Francisco, and are very seriously considering Newport as the venue.

OPTIONS: Speaking of bad blood, Larry Ellison shouldn't expect the red
carpet treatment in Valencia, Spain anytime soon. They remain bitter at his
assurance that if he won the 33rd America's Cup, that Valencia would host
the 34th Match. While Valencia bowed out of the bidding war, the team's
options still include an Italian venue, and surprise surprise, a United Arab
Emirates venue.

VISION: While there has been disappointment in some corners that the BMW
Oracle vision for the 34th America's Cup would be in multihulls, the first
hard evidence that the team's vision had misread the market was when they
reduced the entrance and participation fees last week to hopefully encourage
more teams to enter. Will the next shoe to drop be the continuing rumor that
the event must be delayed from 2013 to 2014 so as to allow the team to
accomplish all the other far reaching aspects of their plan?

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com

Marlin275
01-01-2011, 12:17 PM
San Francisco Chosen To Host America’s Cup In 2013

After months of sometimes contentious negotiations, the organizers of the America’s Cup said on Friday that San Francisco would host the 34th race in late 2013.

San Francisco bested Newport, R.I.; a city in Italy; and an undisclosed bidder believed to be in the Middle East. With its picturesque and windy bay, its international flair and its concentration of wealthy companies, San Francisco was considered the favorite. Lawrence J. Ellison’s BMW Oracle Racing team, which won the Cup in February and thus had the right to choose the next site, is also from the area.

Budget problems prevented San Francisco from paying an upfront fee to win the bid, so lawmakers offered the organizers rent-free access to waterfront property near the Bay Bridge where they can repair piers and build the needed facilities.

To help the organizers recoup some of the estimated $300 million they are expected to invest in running the competition, the city also gave them longtime rights to redevelop the bayside land after the competition.

“We sought a venue that fulfills our promise — to showcase the best sailors in the world competing on the fastest boats,” said Richard Worth, chairman of the America’s Cup Event Authority. “And hosting the America’s Cup in San Francisco will realize that promise.”

San Francisco is the first American city to host the race since 1995, when the team from New Zealand won the Cup in San Diego. Mayor Gavin Newsom of San Francisco, who will soon become California’s lieutenant governor, expects the event to generate more than $1 billion during the two years of preparations, preliminary races and final challenge. Sports economists have questioned that figure.

Still, the race for the Cup — the oldest existing trophy in sports — is likely to attract thousands of spectators, sailors and members of the news media, as well as global television coverage.

“San Francisco is the best place on Earth to host an event of this stature, and we could not be more proud to be the city that brings the America’s Cup back home to the United States,” Newsom said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/01/sports/01cup.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

DonziJon
01-01-2011, 01:52 PM
This is the first I've heard the news...right here on the forum. So I yelled upstairs to tell my wife and she says....OH Yea, I forgot to tell you..it's in todays paper. :banghead: DJ

zelatore
01-01-2011, 10:34 PM
I had to think he was just working the deal with the Newport stuff, but I certainly couldn't be sure. Ellison, er, plays by his own rules.

Glad to have it here though. Should be a great venue. I've seen some of those boats up close here on the bay and they are very impressive machines.

I'm eager to learn what the race course will look like.

MOP
01-02-2011, 05:40 PM
Was going through some night table drawers and came across some shots of my old boat, 20 years ago but seems like yesterday. I included a couple of results sheets, I was no slouch aced several races with Doppleganger! These shots were from King of The Bays, I sailed against the best. As you can see I was very partial to mono hulls!

jl1962
11-24-2012, 02:56 PM
OK - Time to re-open:

VESTAS Sailrocket tops 75 MPH! The boat looks like a big water bug.

Pretty darn fast. The good stuff starts just before the one minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZVIj5TUSKE

:boat::checkered:

Greg Guimond
11-24-2012, 03:53 PM
Holy moly! That is some serious technology they have there............

pipnit
11-24-2012, 11:30 PM
:shocking:WOW:shocking:

maddad
11-25-2012, 01:08 PM
I could only imagine how I'd feel having a sailboat walk away from what I thought was my fairly quick Donzi. And that sailboat could.

mattyboy
11-25-2012, 04:16 PM
Passes everything including gas stations. :eek:

woobs
11-25-2012, 06:39 PM
I am not a wind powered sailor.... that said, the direction that the America's Cup has taken does not interest me in the slightest.

I was a HUGE fan of the old 12's format. It was the only sailboat racing I watched (and was captivated by). I know the cats have more speed and agility, but I think the event has lost the grandeur, spectacle and class of the majestic 12's. (and maybe some of the mystique too)

The only boat racing I watch now will involve fossel fuels or paddles.

Ghost
11-25-2012, 08:22 PM
That thing is amazing. Of course it's hopelessly impractical and one-dimensional but holy s##t, 75 mph by wind is too cool.

That said, I'm with woobs on the old cup boats versus the new. I'd be just as happy if they raced one-design, swapping boats each heat. Cats are sweet too, but I like self-righting ocean-going boats. I suppose that's why races like the Whitbread and the Vendee Globe appeal. You HAVE to have an ocean-going boat, so you can't play around just offshore with a light-air sled under ideal conditions.

Lively-one
11-25-2012, 09:48 PM
I have not had the urge to sail since I used to sail our Sunfish around when I was a kid...as I got a Wooster Hellion (Rubbermaid) Boat about the same time and it hauled *ss even with a 9 hp Evinrude. However, I can certainly appreciate the engineering involved in the Sailrocket...that thing is fast! FYI- there is also a you-tube video of one of these crashing that is pretty cool as well...pilot was not hurt.

jl1962
11-26-2012, 04:57 AM
OK - Lemme try to bring this thread back around.

VSR - Cool but not very practical. And I promise not to post about it until they hit 80 MPH. Which could be soon! The foiling trimaran L'Hydroptere http://hydroptere.com/en/home/ ,is almost as fast and much more functional. Expect them to make a run at the TransPac record soon and eventually the Jules Verne (around the world).

The America's Cup - I agree that the old format was better. Match racing is supposed to be like chess. Smaller, cheaper, slower and stricter one design would be fine. Although I did catch the 45s on NBC in San Fran and it was pretty cool. Stan Honey (the same guy who puts the first down lines on your TV set, and the strike zone on you baseball game) is a world class sailor and navigator and he has done the same thing for viewing sailing on your tv. There are lay lines, ladder rungs, boat speed etc all digitally/graphically displayed - much better than anything else, so far. But the fast cats work better for fleet racing IMO.

The Vendee Globe http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/ - there is a single handed, solo, non-stop around the world race going on in 60' boats. It's amazing stuff. Some crazy Frenchman will win. Guaranteed. We just don't know which one yet!

The Olympics - don't even get me started but the US got skunked in the UK. Expect big changes but it will take time - we are way behind the rest of our competition in that type of sailing - the focus being on very small, incremental boat speed increases in tricky boats that we really don't sail here, rather than on more tactical sailing.

My Laser - I wimped out yesterday - air temp in the 30's and wind speed in the 20's. My back hurts just typing this!

I know this is a powerboat forum but we can post about other interesting stuff - let's all keep things cool. Otherwise it will be a VERY long winter.

To paraphrase Scott P - anybody got a good resto thread they can update for us? ;-)

Peace.