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craigdskilling
12-02-2010, 09:01 PM
I just purchased a 1:50 ratio blackhalk drive.I will be putting in on 1987 18 2+3 classic.I am running a alpha with a labbed 25 p.I will be getting a new bravo transome.my Q is how do the bh pick up water threw the drive or do i have to go external.My motor is a new 383 with400+ hp.with the alpha i was spinning 5900rpm.how running in the mid to high 70 so what size of bh props should i be looking for 27,29 or31.also if i do raise my x i here that the bh nose cone should be at the bottom of the hull is that ok.thanks craig its a long winter.:nilly:

Dr. David Fleming
12-02-2010, 09:43 PM
Craig - I believe Merc no longer services the Blackhawk which was a high performance drive option they sold a few years ago. Most guys are getting rid of them for the Bravo drive. So unless you are keeping if for an antique I would think it is a bad option to invest in.

roadtrip se
12-02-2010, 10:00 PM
The BH will pick-up water through the skeg, just like your Alpha today.

There have been a few 22C guys that have mounted these drives at the same height at the Bravo with good results. You might start here and try the drive first, as it is a definite change in driving style. If you don't like it, you could go to a Bravo and not change the CG of the boat at all. We owned a Bravo 18 with a Scorpion package and the boat was awesome.

There is a guy up at Winni running an x-18 with a raised X-dim of about three inches and a Blackhawk drive. His name is Stevie Marr. You don't see him here much, but the guy that helped him with the project, Tom Davis, does come around here on occassion. Tom's handle is his name, so you might try PM-ing him, and picking his brain. I have seen this boat run a bunch, and it is very solid. Well into the mid-70's with a stock 350 Magnum.

Props are going to be your toughest challenge. They weren't that great to start with from a quality perspective, so they threw blades. I would try whatever you can find. If you want some leads on where to look for them, drop me a PM. Expect to pay a premium for whatever you may find, and do it gladly.

As for the naysayers, ignore them. This is an awesome drive. The BHLE 22 is something else to behold, drive, and ride in. There is also a significant contingent of Cig 20 guys that run them and come to AOTH every year. And I am talking an average of 8-10 boats. These boats are show pieces and 90% are running Blackhawks. Get your boat together and bring it down!

Good luck.

craigdskilling
12-03-2010, 05:36 AM
Can i keep my same watr pump that on there now and can anybody give any idea of what size of props.i'm thinking of the 29 to start.

glashole
12-03-2010, 04:17 PM
I know a guy who has some blackhawk props that might let you try them once you get your boat together to see how you are making out

ITTLFLI
12-03-2010, 07:13 PM
You will need to add a sea pump to the pulley system on your motor like the bravo runs. The alpha/ss have the pump in the drive.

craigdskilling
12-04-2010, 12:23 AM
My old drive was alpha not a ss.does that make a difference.I was hoping you were going to chime in glasshole I now you helped out younger with his and i hope you can help me out.what do you think should I run for props please anybody like to give me an idea please.Thanks craig.:nilly:

MOP
12-04-2010, 08:27 AM
IMO it is essential that the drive is mounted at the proper X dimension, we have had two 18's set up with the drive. Steve Mars was setup as it was intended, his best speed with a 300 SB was 78-79. In contrast DonCig built one with about 175 HP more and only achieved a few MPH more, the problem lies in the fact that the drive must be mounted with a 17-1/2" X to realize the full potential of the drive. It must be at this height to keep only the fin and blades in the water flow, if any part of the bullet/case is in the water flow it produces stern lift stealing several MPH off the top end. I ran a BH on my 22 for a season, mine being an old Tempest 300 setup has an X is just shy of 17", I loved the drive the handling was superb along with the complete absence of torque steer. The boat ran great low to upper mid range then ran to flat due to the stern lift, out of the hole was as good if not slightly better than the Bravo X I now run. You need to do some searching for the posts on both 18's to see the facts of just how important the raised X is, DonCig and waleyetwo. Don did not raise his X as he did not want the redo the boat which I can more than understand, but it cost him about five MPH.

craigdskilling
12-04-2010, 09:27 AM
Mop what do you mean 17-1/2x from to or the bottom of the boat hull.i read on one of the threads that if i have the nose cone lined up with the bottom of the hull.does that sound good or not.what threads can i read up on.

roadtrip se
12-04-2010, 09:27 AM
Mr. X set-up an x-18 up with a Scorpion and BH package a few years back.

Ran into the low 80's.

craigdskilling
12-04-2010, 09:28 AM
Mop what do you mean 17-1/2x from the top or the bottom of the boat hull.i read on one of the threads that if i have the nose cone lined up with the bottom of the hull.does that sound good or not.what threads can i read up on.

craigdskilling
12-04-2010, 09:31 AM
if you raise the x does that mean you have to raise the motor up also.

ITTLFLI
12-04-2010, 10:20 AM
if you raise the x does that mean you have to raise the motor up also.
Yes. Motor gets raised

MOP
12-04-2010, 12:40 PM
Yes the X is measured from the bottom, it requires raising the engine, transom cut out also higher motor mounting. The hatch needs to have a 3" raised area to clear the risers and carb, Steve made a nice scoop in the front. This is a project but so well worth the effort! The transom needs to be filled in and re-cut, if you have through hull exhaust the tips need to be raised also. Just slapping the drive on will not give great results, but done right it will run like a scalded dog with moderate reliable power. 300 will get you a smidgen under 70, 350-75 mid to upper 80's. IMO 450hp will put it into the lower 90's. You will be pulling the boat apart to put in the transom shield, it would not take that many more hours to get it done where it will really run. Forgetting about the speed for a minute, you will have -0- chine walk, -0- torque steer IMO fabulous handling. There is a river up at 1K I call snake river it is the windiest one I have ever been on, mine with the BH ate it up I had so much fun I went up and down about four time @WOT granted that was 59mph. I have since been up it twice with the Bravo, the Bravo cannot run as fast and loses it in hard lefts scares the Krap out of you when the azz end starts to skip toward the bank.

roadtrip se
12-04-2010, 01:00 PM
Before we get carried away with basically rebuilding the butt-end of the boat, why not try the drive with the stock x-dimension with a Bravo gimbal?
This allows for the mounting up of a stock Bravo or a Bravo with IMCo shortie as options, if the Blackhawk test doesn't appeal?

Osur866 runs an 18 with a shortie and it is one awesome ride.

As for making the blanket statment that DonCig did not get good results from mounting a BH drive on his 18 at the stock location, this isn't the whole story. I talked to him several times about this and he simply did not like the feel of the drive or the cornering, since he intended to use the boat to ski behind and the like. So he took it off. He did like how the drive ran behind the Cig 20 he had.

In addition, there are several C22 boats running the BH at a regular drive height and seeing dramatic improvements in performance without utilizing it as a true surface drive.

I would do this incrementally and then go with the whole enchilda of building up stringers and recutting the transom for the high x-dim target, once you are sold on the drive and the way it runs on the boat. Once you do all of this, it is going to be hard to go backwards.

MOP is a great example of this incremental approach. He tried it, didn't like it, took it off, sold it, and went a different direction.

fogducker III
12-04-2010, 01:07 PM
Before we get carried away with basically rebuilding the butt-end of the boat, why not try the drive with the stock x-dimension with a Bravo gimbal?
This allows for the mounting up of a stock Bravo or a Bravo with IMCo shortie as options, if the Blackhawk test doesn't appeal?

Osur866 runs an 18 with a shortie and it is one awesome ride.

As for making the blanket statment that DonCig did not get good results from mounting a BH drive on his 18 at the stock location, this isn't the whole story. I talked to him several times about this and he simply did not like the feel of the drive or the cornering, since he intended to use the boat to ski behind and the like. So he took it off. He did like how the drive ran behind the Cig 20 he had.

In addition, there are several C22 boats running the BH at a regular drive height and seeing dramatic improvements in performance without utilizing it as a true surface drive.

I would do this incrementally and then go with the whole enchilda of building up stringers and recutting the transom for the high x-dim target, once you are sold on the drive and the way it runs on the boat. Once you do all of this, it is going to be hard to go backwards.

MOP is a great example of this incremental approach. He tried it, didn't like it, took it off, sold it, and went a different direction.


+1

Talk to Yeller, I believe his X is stock...? The Blackhawk we installed works pretty well IMO.

A shortie on an 18 works well to....:wink:

craigdskilling
12-04-2010, 01:46 PM
OK,well now we are getting some were this is great thank you very much guys.so i think i,m going to bolt on the new bravo gimble and that is going to take drilling 2 new holes correct.can i keep the same engine position that it,s at now with the bravo housing.next i have to find a pump motor for water.anybody have one for sale with the brackets.then it,s down to props.holy##:eek:

gcarter
12-04-2010, 02:04 PM
I have a pump that would require a new impellor etc, but the bracket is for a BBC......It can probably be used, but not w/o some work.

yeller
12-04-2010, 02:26 PM
Definitely put the drive on and try it first before going through the work of raising the X. That would be a lot of work......and keep in mind the BH hasn't been produced for over a dozen years, so you have to really love the drive to go that route because the BH isn't going to cheap to fix if it breaks. Once you raise the X for the BH, you'd have to lower it if you decided to go Bravo/Shorty.

I've tried 3 combos on my boat (all at stock X). Here's what I found out.

Boat: 2004 22C 496HO/Procharger

With Bravo1: Boat comes out of the hole good. Have to run a fair amount of tab to keep it from porpoising until I get over 60mph. Runs fairly stable 60~70, but over 70 can get out of control real, real, easy. Was never able to get more than a few seconds blast above 80mph. I tried 4 different props; 2-4blades and 2-3blades. I like the 3 blades better. Boat was a bit 'looser' in the arse, but it gave you warning before all hell broke loose. The 4 blades were 'tighter', but got out of control with out warning. I was able to run the 3 blades faster.

With BH: Boat is slow out of the hole. Takes more throttle and more distance to get on plane. Porpoise is Insane. I need to run almost 100% tabs up to 60mph. Once over 60, I can raise the tabs and really let the boat fly. A way easier boat to drive fast. I can hold it WOT for extended periods if I like. I can't really say how much I gained in top speed with the BH, because I was never able to run the boat WOT with the Bravo long enough to find out what top speed was. I'll guess the BH gave me 3~4mph, but that's not what I was after. I was after better handling and it definitely gave me that (after 60mph).

With XR/IMCO Shorty: This combo fell pretty much between the other two in all aspects. Porpoised more than stock, but less than BH. Much improved high speed handling over stock, but not as solid as the BH.

I still don't know which combo I'm going to end up using; Shorty or BH. I love the high speed handling of the BH but absolutely hate the amount of porpoise. The BH turns the boat into a high speed boat only. There's no such thing as cruising around 50.....and my wife hates going over 50, so you can see my dilema. I'm also concerned about parts. Most parts are still available, but the vertical shaft is the tough one to find...and from what I've been able to find out, is the part that breaks the most.

Keep in mind, this is only how my boat reacted to the different combos. Every boat is different. In fact, I swapped drives with a friend that has an 05 22C. He has the XR/Shorty. He says he didn't notice an increase in porpoise running the BH.

I'm now going to a longer tab to try and reduce the porpoise. It never ends......:cool:

MOP
12-04-2010, 08:08 PM
Before you form a hard fast decision you must take the time to speak with Tom and Steve, way to much conjecture up here a mistake can easily be made!

craigdskilling
12-05-2010, 08:26 AM
anybody have props for sale.

craigdskilling
12-05-2010, 09:59 AM
Tanks i just talked to a great member who lives close by and in the spring is going to help me with a set of 29,31 can't wait for spring.but i still am looking for a sea pump and brackets.

MOP
12-05-2010, 10:33 AM
One of the simplest pumps is the Johnson crank mounted pump!

http://www.johnson-pump.com/JPMarine/products/enginecooling/index.html

Check out the F6B-9 G Carter, myself and many others run them eliminating a belt it uses one simple bracket.

Phil

craigdskilling
12-05-2010, 10:34 AM
another Q.on my motor there is a water pump that i thought sucked the water up threw the drive.when the bh goes on the water comes up threw that does the water pump that i have now do that so why do i need the sea pump how do i hook all this up:bonk:

MOP
12-05-2010, 10:37 AM
another Q.on my motor there is a water pump that i thought sucked the water up threw the drive.when the bh goes on the water comes up threw that does the water pump that i have now do that so why do i need the sea pump how do i hook all this up:bonk:

Are you saying you already have a belt driven pump? Alphas have their pump in the drive!

fogducker III
12-05-2010, 12:24 PM
I think he is talking about the recirculating pump........... Craig, no offense meant but the questions you are asking are pretty basic mechanical ones and what you appear to be aiming for is pretty complicated.........may I suggest you contact somebody local who is knowledgable in marine applications to help you out....:confused::wrench::crossfing:

Mr X
12-05-2010, 02:54 PM
I think he is talking about the recirculating pump........... Craig, no offense meant but the questions you are asking are pretty basic mechanical ones and what you appear to be aiming for is pretty complicated.........may I suggest you contact somebody local who is knowledgable in marine applications to help you out....:confused::wrench::crossfing:
That's good advice, I would listen to him. :yes:

craigdskilling
12-05-2010, 08:09 PM
Thanks guys and you are all right.I just talked to my boat mech and he set me straight:bonk:he knows where to get the sea pump and everything i need.i hope when this all done that i will be close in the 18 class for fastest thread.thanks again for all you help craig from ontario.

younger
12-08-2010, 09:17 AM
For props give Dave Bostic at Hoss a call. He set me up with a set of 30's. I gained 10+ with the swap in my 16, these drives are awsome handling, reduced torque steer and less funny stuff at high speed. Make no mistake the bh is for fast running, forget skiing,& tubbing. Driving the bh will also take some seat time to maximize performance. As for the x run it at stock location. As for props find a set, and then if you have to gear the drive for the desired rpm. The only differences between the bh and bravo III is the vertical shaft, and the prop shafts retaining hardware. The vert shaft can be made by a good machine shop. If you are located in Ont. come on over and see what I have done before you start. If you have it done in the spring we could find some water for some prop testing. We could hook up with shea and run all 3 classic in the bh configuration!

glashole
12-08-2010, 09:36 AM
my schedule is open for the new year
keep in mind the 16 is alot different hull than the 18 and may not act exactly the same

craigdskilling
12-08-2010, 08:09 PM
That sounds awesome guys.Are any of you guys going to the toronto boat show in january.It would be great to get together at lake wow and dream of summer.I'll buy the first round and appetizers.craig:nilly:

younger
12-08-2010, 08:14 PM
Love to see the resaults! Would be a great comparison.

craigdskilling
12-08-2010, 08:29 PM
Younger. where is home.

MOP
12-08-2010, 09:50 PM
You can run BIII props I did and they worked fine, they have to be machined as the bearing carrier in the BH is larger so they will not fit over it. Every rig is different I had -0- porpoising and it was great out of the hole but then again I was running BIII wheels, there are a couple of pictures floating around of mine with a boat load of people running up at 1K with good acceleration throughout the range. I ran a 24" front and a 26" back, the front prop feeds the back so the back has to be a higher pitch. BIII wheels are way cheaper, they won't give you the best top end very acceptable performance a set can be had for about $400 plus $70 to machine the the front prop inner hub. IMO you won't sling a blade as quick with BIII's due to the larges mass at the hub.

younger
12-09-2010, 05:07 PM
I 'm located in Kingston, Ont. I have done what mop suggested with the bravo III props, I have a 28" front bavoIII and a bh chopper for the rear. with this set and a 1.65 ratio I turned 6000+ @ 80mph. They do work but there is a lose of efficiency if you have to go this route look for a set of cupped bravo III props.

craigdskilling
12-09-2010, 05:30 PM
younger when you tried sheas props where they bh props.He and i are going to get together in the spring.to try some of his props i think he said he has 29 and 31.hope he might sell.If i can find some bh props would they be better than the bravoIII.

younger
12-09-2010, 07:00 PM
I have bIII 28"s and a set of custom hoss bh 30" s The bh props are the only way to go. I took Shea for a ride with his 31's ran 80.7 with very little seat time and poor water conditions. I later found a poor power valve in the carb. Let me know when you plan on testing I can bring what I have to try.

craigdskilling
12-09-2010, 07:27 PM
younger what kind of power are you running.I have 400+ hp what do you think i'll be in the 29 or 31 props.just wondering

younger
12-09-2010, 08:58 PM
I run a 415 sbc motown with roller valve train edelbrock rpm heads, and rpm air gap intake, stainless marine manifolds with long dry risers, carb is bg 850dp. It is probably making close to 500 with tons of torque. I run 1.65 gear with 30" props and have pulled 5400 rpm with a little left. Handling becomes an issue at 80 plus. I am assuming that the alpha is a 1.5 gear and not a 1.32 gear. You pulled 5900 with a 25 prop at 12% slip that is around 82mph. You said high 70's is that gps. You will gain some rpm with the hydrodynamics of the bh, but you have to remember that when these bh props hook-up they are locked in. By the sounds of your motor you will want to still keep your rpm. I would start with the lower side of the props 27-29 pitch being you are a 1.5 gear. At the numbers you post you are going to spend some money for a few mph. you will gain in handling no dought. I will tell you that my boat has more motor then it needs and after 81-82 mph becomes a death trap plain and simple. I feel that this is the terminal velocity of my 16. as for x dim. it is a touch over an 1" low, that leaves the bullit almost level with the bottom. Not perfect but it works. Call anytime 613-389-4196

craigdskilling
12-10-2010, 04:05 PM
Not gps just the lost of tears watering out.It felt like 100.yes the alpha is 1;50 ratio and it felt like 80 but who knows.I know that it was fast.I was just thinking today that at what speeds do you start handing out goggles.I have three kids and I must get a picture next summer of all of us wearing are goggles,or lets say you take some friends out far a ride and the first thing you offer before the life jackets is goggles what are they going to think.:bonk::eek: holy #### comes to mind.craig

MOP
12-10-2010, 05:54 PM
If you do try BIII's they have much more blade area so try 26 or maybe 28's, they may not give you the best top end but all around is much better they come out of the hole great. My prop guy out by me said they could do much better with work.

craigdskilling
12-10-2010, 08:01 PM
Is there any way of using my old props from my alpha.one is a 25labbed mirrage and the other is a23 mirrage can this work with some work.

younger
12-10-2010, 08:53 PM
Not without a magic wand! bIII and bh props are thier own animal. With my bIII props there is no mid range efficiency. These are 28's they will work but compared to bh design not comparible. The bh set I have, the front is 16.5" x29" and the rear is 15.25 x 31" to total 30" both are cleaver made by hoss props. The front I had the dia. cut down from 17.5". The front bIII I put it on my mill and bored the inner dia. and shortened the hub to fit the bh. the rear bIII requires no mods to fit. Have a look at the bravo III xr props front is a 4 blade rear is 3 in a cupped design. I can't remember but I don't think the xr's are available in larger pitches. The props shown are my 28,s front bIII, rear chopper bh.

younger
12-10-2010, 09:08 PM
More pics of the bIII props. I will try and find some of the bh's.

craigdskilling
12-10-2010, 09:22 PM
Thats awesome.I can't wait.

craigdskilling
12-11-2010, 09:11 AM
Younger what is the hose coming up the back to the top of the drive.

younger
12-11-2010, 08:54 PM
That is a drive cooler I made up.

yeller
12-11-2010, 09:01 PM
That is a drive cooler I made up.I wouldn't have thought that would work. On my boat, the cavitation plate on a Bravo1 is in line with the bottom of the boat. With the BH the propshaft is in line with the bottom of the boat and the cavitation plate is up about 7". I would think yours is pretty much the same. At speed, is the pick up even in the water?

You can see the difference here:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63066&highlight=blackhawk&page=2

craigdskilling
12-12-2010, 04:58 PM
I was looking at some of my boat pictures and is my swim platform going to be an issue i wonder. I've attached a picture.

younger
12-12-2010, 09:13 PM
The cooler lines pick the water comming off the props.

craigdskilling
12-13-2010, 05:06 PM
I have a chance to buy a set 27 never used bh props what do think.

yeller
12-13-2010, 05:30 PM
I'm thinking 27's might be too small. I think you need 29's but I could easily be wrong...I'm far from an expert. It's a tough call to make. 27's might end up being the size you need.

Your options are to buy a set of props now and hope they are the right size or wait until the drive is on and test props to see what you need, then hope you can find a set to purchase then. (I think a saw a post where someone offered you props to test.....didn't I)

If you buy the 27's and they are too small, you'll still be able to run the boat until you find the right size and then try and sell the 27's.

Only you can make that decision.

craigdskilling
12-13-2010, 07:50 PM
Its pretty pricey try.I hope to try to get them for 800 + shipping.Hers some picks ,there just pulled out of the original box.In the spring yes a gentlemen has 29/31.I now my motor has a lot off torque and has 400hp.so the old set up was 25p labbed at 5800rpm i was going to look in the spring for27 for my alpha.to bring it down to5500 i hoped.so that being said i have great mirrage props for sale one 23pthe other25labbed.i hope i dont sound like a broken record.

roadtrip se
12-13-2010, 08:30 PM
800 is a steal for a set of decent BH props.

younger
12-14-2010, 11:24 PM
What are you waiting for, that is a gift. If you turn those 27's to fast go with a 1.36 gear. If I recall going from 1.50 to 1.36 gear is worth around 10% reduction in rpm.

craigdskilling
12-15-2010, 02:01 PM
Younger you make it sound so easy,but how much would that cost roughly.And where do get the gears from.I thought that it was hard to find parts for the bh or are they the same as a bravo drive. I just bought the props merry x mas.

glashole
12-15-2010, 03:16 PM
I have a set of 1:36 gears for a blackhawk drive

been meaning to put them in my extra drive in case i ever wanted to add more HP to my boat

if you are going to have to have someone install a set of gears for you i would assume 1500 and up including the gears - the only issue is there aren't alot of guys in your area that can work on a blackhawk drive

also 800 for a set of blackhawk props is a good deal, i wouldn't let any of my sets go for that

also 27's might work just fine

younger
12-16-2010, 08:51 AM
As stated before the only difference between bh and bravo, barvoIII parts is the bh vertical shaft is shorter and the prop retaining bearing carrier hardware. All gears are interchangeable including xr. A good idea is to have a look at part #'s and look for compatibility. First things first get the boat together, put your new 27's on and see what happens.Then you will know were to go, more prop or go the gear change route. At this point time is your friend! Keep an eye out for a deal. It took my 2 years to gather all the parts to do my bh convertion in the 16.