PDA

View Full Version : Baby 16 225HP Mercury Over 60MPH Setup



BOMPAPEN
11-25-2010, 07:48 PM
I have a Baby 16 with a Mercury 225HP 3.0L. The prop is a Mercury Tempest 27 P. When the boat pass 60MPH start to bounce side to side and are very inestable. I read this boat can run over 70. What I do wrong. Any help is apreciated.
David Vila

Carbo
11-26-2010, 07:58 AM
The largest motor available in the time these were built was around 135hp and the boats would run maybe 50's..............you are far exceeding the power and weight of what they were designed for. There are a few threads here that may help on this forum about getting them stable. Trim tabs can help and will a jack plate. Gearcase designs vary with some better than others.....lots of reading for you to do.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54091

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61800

Carbo
11-26-2010, 08:00 AM
And post your hull number and year here.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63670

MOP
11-26-2010, 08:00 AM
Outboards also have the advantage of being easily raised up manually or jacked, it is more than worth while experimenting with the height above the transom. I have run several with the cavitation plate 2-3 inches above the bottom, that reduced or eliminated chine walk. Before you go out and spend $$$ try raising the engine up, most can be raised two bolt holes or more. The limiting factor is the water pickups, you can only go so high before you start having cooling issues.

Phil

Barry Eller
11-26-2010, 05:43 PM
Are you using a single cable steering system? I had a 16' Tahiti with a 200 Mercury that would run high 70's low 80's depending on load and prop. Dual rack and pinion push/pull steering and solid motor mounts helped tremendously. I also found that using a exhaust over the blade prop such as a Mercury Chopper prop minimized the prop torque that can cause chine walk. And as MOP pointed out, raising the x dimension with a setback jack plate helps too. My prop shaft was 1" below the bottom of the boat with a 9" setback jack plate using a chopper prop. To use a thru hub exhaust prop, I had to lower the x dimension considerably.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/170546583902?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&_dmd=Gallery&var=sbar&rvr_id=174754128650&crlp=1_263602_304692&UA=%3F*I8&GUID=40dc377912c0a0366283a953ffedc04b&itemid=170546583902&ff4=263602_304692

Greg Guimond
11-27-2010, 01:18 PM
I have a Baby 16 with a Mercury 225HP 3.0L.
David Vila

Post a clear picture of the boat at rest in the water preferably with a full of gas.

Carbo
11-27-2010, 02:35 PM
Post a clear picture of the boat at rest in the water preferably with a full of gas.

3.0L...............I know what you want to see Greg. What does that thing weigh?

Greg Guimond
11-27-2010, 03:34 PM
Exactly Carbo. It depends on the year he has, but safe to say an easy additional 80-100 lbs. Then based on what we uncovered in a previous thread on gas tank locations for a 1976, the tank could be back and viewable upon removal of the floor tub versus 12-14" further forward toward the bow. Then the last point is if the battery is mounted inside the locker in the rear lounge seat. I'm not convinced it can't be reworked with a decent result, but it all starts with if the transom lip is almost touching the water at rest. If the set-up can be properly re-worked, then the hamster motor options become MUCH MUCH more interesting for all 16 OB owners. :wrench::wrench::wrench:

BOMPAPEN
11-28-2010, 08:01 PM
I test the boat in FL. I live in PR and should receive the boat next week. The motor weight 451 lbs with cable steering. The steering is very tight. The boat is 100% original no mods. I see some 16 have 2.5 lt that weight 390 and a jack plkate 45lbs and hydraulic steering 12lbs a total of 447lbs. I beelive the problem could be the prop 27p. I choose the 3.0lt over the 2.5 for the torque. My goal is to achieve the fastest cruise speed at 4000 to 4500 rpm with 4 people. I need to top speed the boat to make the correct prop selector.

Greg Guimond
11-28-2010, 09:54 PM
I thought you had a heavier Opti ................

MOP
11-28-2010, 10:20 PM
Single cable steering tight or not is not good, a set of solid mount like mentioned above and dual cable is the only safe way to go. Big outboards on small V hulls tend to get real wobbly, once they start to dance most the time it only gets worse. They react a whole lot different then a I/O boat, the weight is carried high only increasing the pendulum action IE: Chine Walk. Fooling with props can help some but getting it at the right height for the hull is key.

MOP
11-28-2010, 10:23 PM
Staring at he photo of the engine I would raise it two bolt holes for a start that will do more the any prop!

Barry Eller
11-29-2010, 04:43 AM
I sure hope your transom is solid....:crossfing: are you able to get insurance on that rig?

BOMPAPEN
11-29-2010, 03:04 PM
I will try to move up the engine first, make sense. Iff this dont work I can try another prop. A friend have an ET Ron Hill solid hub. Have a small diameter 12 3/4 but 30P. Finally change the steering system. I read the weight of the engine from the plaque have on it. The transom is solid. The boat never been repaired. I buy this boat from the second owner that have it for 27 years, 23 of it in a barn. This is my 2nd 16 outboard. The first one have a 200 V6 Mercury and ran close to 60mph. I hope get close to 60 mph cruising. Thanks for the input.
David Vilá

Greg Guimond
11-29-2010, 04:12 PM
What year is the boat and what year is the motor?

BUIZILLA
11-29-2010, 04:56 PM
I will try to move up the engine first, make sense. Iff this dont work I can try another prop. A friend have an ET Ron Hill solid hub. Have a small diameter 12 3/4 but 30P. Finally change the steering system. I read the weight of the engine from the plaque have on it. The transom is solid. The boat never been repaired. I buy this boat from the second owner that have it for 27 years, 23 of it in a barn. This is my 2nd 16 outboard. The first one have a 200 V6 Mercury and ran close to 60mph. I hope get close to 60 mph cruising. Thanks for the input.
David Viládid this boat have a 140 on it a few weeks ago?

RPD
11-29-2010, 07:35 PM
OK ... I don't know for sure, but I think it's a combination of several things mentioned above: (1) the basic design of the hull is from 1963/4 and it's designed to do 50+ max (2) motors when the OB came out were 150 lbs lighter .... net result is that at WOT with today's outboards, even the inner strakes are mostly out of the water... bottom line, you're skimming on a convex surface like a spoon .... so .... (1) run the boat flatter (2) reduce drag by raising the x dimension and maybe using an overhub prop and (3) go to hydraulic steering ...

Just my $0.02 worth after 20 years owning a 16OB

Greg Guimond
11-29-2010, 09:34 PM
All valid points. I am really interested in seeing the in water photos of this one!

Greg Guimond
11-29-2010, 10:40 PM
If you take a look at this clip it gives a nice illustration of what you have to contend with. While the weight is one thing, with a stock 3L that powerhead is moving around a lot. Then, when you go to raise the motor, the movement is amplified albeit at a higher center of gravity. Get to 60 and you can see how each movement leads to hull walk on a 16.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZm11iP0EUU

Barry Eller
11-30-2010, 09:22 AM
Good video. Shows the need for solid motor mounts for sure! As Greg said, even a slight amount of movement of the engine multiplied by 16' is a lot. Solid mounts, dual push/pull steering, high X dimension and over the hub exhaust prop really settled my Tahiti down. Here is a photo of it running at speed...notice how flat is running.

BOMPAPEN
11-30-2010, 03:51 PM
The boat is 1975 and have a 200 HP Mercury on it. I buy the boat without the engine. Still have all original Mercury rigging. I know top speed of this boat is more than was designed. But I see in this forum a 18 over 100 MPH. I know is a different rigging but I dont need to go to 100. I am more interested in cruise close to 60 MPH. Right now she runs on 60 very stable, the problem begins after that. I need to know iff at that constant speed and RPMS the engine is not hurt. I need to top the boat for know the RPMS and choose the rigth prop.
Thats why I try yours recomendations. Rise the engine, try different prop, move the balance. And last a new steering.

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 03:54 PM
I thought you said it had a 225 Mercury? What year is the motor?

Carbo
11-30-2010, 04:42 PM
The boat is 1975 and have a 200 HP Mercury on it. I buy the boat without the engine. Still have all original Mercury rigging. I know top speed of this boat is more than was designed. But I see in this forum a 18 over 100 MPH. I know is a different rigging but I dont need to go to 100. I am more interested in cruise close to 60 MPH. Right now she runs on 60 very stable, the problem begins after that. I need to know iff at that constant speed and RPMS the engine is not hurt. I need to top the boat for know the RPMS and choose the rigth prop.
Thats why I try yours recomendations. Rise the engine, try different prop, move the balance. And last a new steering.


What is your hull number? We are starting a sort of registry....

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 05:16 PM
BOMPAPEN,
Now you have us all confused. I think you are saying that you bought JUST the hull. Can you give Carbo the HIN please along with the size and location of the gas tank? Then, you must have decided to add your own OB motor to the hull, is this correct? We need to know if you added a Merc 2.5L 200HP EFI, or a Merc 3.0L 225HP EFI and what year and shaft length. My sense is that you will have a lot of work to do yet to get to a docile 60mph well behaved cruise at 5,000RPM but until we get all the specifics above there is no way to narrow down the options.

As far as 18's that go 100........they don't exist, unless RTSE has one and won't share.

BOMPAPEN
11-30-2010, 07:20 PM
Sorry for the confusion. English is not my primary language. BUIZILLA ask about the previous engine. I buy only the hull because the seller has remove the engine a 200 2.5l. The engine is unrepairable. I buy a 2004 225 EFI 20in. The boat is in FL I have ready for deliver should be here in about one or two weeks.This is the link for the DONZI 18 http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61317

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 08:07 PM
GEOO is mythical, no one is allowed to comment on him publicly.

2004 Mercury 3.0L 225 EFI..........when you get the boat in hand then it will be easier to exchange ideas. It should be interesting overall.

BOMPAPEN
11-30-2010, 10:08 PM
I just can wait to test the boat here. I can only do maths of the speed I could get. With the prop off my friend 12 3/4 x 30 ET, theorically can reach 60 with 4100 RPM at 10% slip aprox. Thanks for the input.

BOMPAPEN
12-07-2010, 12:08 PM
I receive the papers from the shipping company and the boat is in its way to here. I should receive this friday :yes:. A member ask the hull number, DMR1612904753

BUIZILLA
12-07-2010, 12:20 PM
I receive the papers from the shipping company and the boat is in its way to here. I should receive this friday :yes:. A member ask the hull number, DMR1612904753 the 3 should be a letter B

BOMPAPEN
12-07-2010, 01:16 PM
I verify the title and this is the number. When the boat arrives I can verify fisically. Iff anyone have information where I can know more data with this serial number.

BUIZILLA
12-07-2010, 01:21 PM
all outboards had the letter B on the end

BOMPAPEN
12-07-2010, 01:50 PM
You are rigth about the B. I remember have this photo. The hull is DMR1612904753-B

BOMPAPEN
12-20-2010, 02:37 PM
Here is the boat in the water. I reach 63 MPH, not bad for a hull designed for 50. After 63 start the chime walk. I look the engine and he move side to side when chime walked. Besides the steering cable is tight in not enough for that speed. I am in the process of buy an hydraulic steering system. Any advise for wich steering system is the best for this setup at a reasonable price.

fasttrucker
12-21-2010, 01:26 PM
I looked at sea-star(?) system at west marine.

BOMPAPEN
12-22-2010, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the info.

Greg Guimond
12-22-2010, 05:52 PM
When you took those photos, was the gas tank up front 100% full of fuel? Is the tank in the stock location just ahead of the floor storage locker?

BOMPAPEN
12-25-2010, 09:57 PM
Greg, The tank was 90% . Yes the tank is in the stock position,

Greg Guimond
12-27-2010, 09:29 AM
Is that a 3.0L 225? If it is I am surprised that it is not forcing the transom to squat lower when at rest. I would be interested in how many inches of transom are above the water line when the tank is full of fuel, and then how many inches when the tank is empty. You are making the correct first move by installing Sea-Star. I would suggest the "Pro" system from Sea-Star especially considering the torque of that 3L motor. Be 100% sure that the shop you purchase from knows what they are doing and is equipped with the correct tool to properly bleed and balance the system to take 100% of the play out. Some do but most don't :bonk:

BOMPAPEN
12-27-2010, 10:05 AM
Greg, have all the maximun performance from a boat is no easy task, take a lot of time and do the correct things. Specially in this setup. Thanks for your imput. The engine is a 3.0L EFI is the same as Optimax with a different name. I also verify the Uflex Protech steering system. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330450021252&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330450021252&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
It is $190 less expensive than the Pro from Teleflex. Do you know about this one?
This boat is in excellent shape. All the stringers look great. The transom dont move when aply the power. All the hull, including the bottom is in original glossy gelcoat.
I add this photos taking the same day as the last ones. Next week I am on vacation and can verify the transom heigh above the water.

Greg Guimond
12-27-2010, 10:18 AM
Have you purchased the Uflex system yet? Also, is the motor a 20" or a 25" ?

BOMPAPEN
12-27-2010, 12:07 PM
No I dont buy any system yet.
The motor is 20"

Greg Guimond
12-27-2010, 02:30 PM
Uflex makes some good stuff but with a 3L power head, I would investigate the Sea Star Pro set up. That engine puts out a lot of torque and the single most important thing that will help your chine walk issue as you approach 63 is the best possible steering and the Pro set up is a notch above the standard Sea Star.

HIGH LIFE
12-27-2010, 06:13 PM
Greg, I have IMCO steering on my twins, expensive but worth it !!! "HIGH LIFE"

Greg Guimond
12-27-2010, 06:21 PM
IMCO is a wing plate system, and a very good one at that!

Greg Guimond
12-28-2010, 09:17 PM
BOMPAPEN, where is your battery located on the 16 OB?

BOMPAPEN
12-29-2010, 01:24 PM
Greg, The battery is under the rear bench, in the center. Have a factory molded fiberglass deep basquet that appear is for the battery. I need to remove the old trim pump from the previous engine. Is located under the left rear access hatch. I dont know how much it weights. Under the right rear hatch is the oil tank , about 2 to 3 gallons maybe more.

Greg Guimond
12-30-2010, 05:11 PM
You might want to consider moving the battery forward and remounting it at the front of the small ski locker under the bow to get a bit of the weight forward considering you have a heavier 3L motor. I would not do this until you first upgrade the steering as you are planning on doing. The key with these OB's is to never make two changes at the same time especially if you are brand new to the hull.

MOP
12-30-2010, 05:27 PM
The steering is only half the job, solid mounts will make even more of a difference. The forward ram type hydraulic still uses the tiller allowing some flex, the wing plate style mentioned above will hold the engine more steady.

Greg Guimond
12-30-2010, 05:38 PM
Agree MOP........

I like to do the steering first based on the safety issues. Wing plate steering, while the best system by far, is probably twice the cost of the Pro system and not really needed based on the speeds involved. If you want to get a little more anal, Allison uses the Sea Star Pro system and then makes some small changes to it to enhance it even more.

You are correct on those motor mounts, that 3L powerhead likes to move. That would be suggested change #2 Bompanen once you get a little seat time with the new steering system you end up deciding on.

BOMPAPEN
01-04-2011, 10:46 PM
I remove the old power trim pump. Is incredible the difference this make. Now the boat float little more incline to the right (the pump was under the left rear hatch). The chine walk getting worst. First I plan to move the oil tank to the left for compensate. After a test then move the battery to the front, is a great idea, giving also more available storage under the seat. I test an ET 3 blade 30P 12 3/4 Dia solid hub prop. Is to small for this engine, he is over rev. The gas tank is almost empty, tomorrow I can take the measure of the transom height. Then filled and measure again. Does anyone know the length of the hoses for the steering? I measure 14' but some people say use 16'.:party:

Greg Guimond
01-05-2011, 07:45 AM
I can't be sure on the hose length, but Carbo might know and post. What is the rev limit on your 3L 225HP EFI? Also, it will be interesting to see the difference in height when the forward gas tank is empty. The picture with the tank full showed that the transom did NOT sit as low as I thought it might with the heavier 3L motor. However, I am still wondering how the transom will hold up to that kind of torque over time. If it works out, that would open up a variety of options for power including the ETEC wackers.

Thanks and keep the pictures coming! If it's possible would be REALLY interesting to a side picture of the Baby at speed to see what angle it runs at.

You are the only 16 Baby running a Merc 3L motor :yes:

Carbo
01-05-2011, 09:33 AM
I have not purchased my hoses yet but with the setback of my Paralift mine may be a foot longer. It will also depend on where the hoses go through the top cap. Mine may be different after the splash well modification. Just remember......easy to hide a foot....hard to gain a foot. Unless you have one of the rare steering hose stretchers.:wink:

BOMPAPEN
01-08-2011, 01:15 PM
Thanks for the help. I mesure from the helm to the rub rail 2' then to the end of the cockpit 6' more and to the transom 3' more. With the 14' hoses still have 3' more for connection to the motor and any other need. I buy the 14' hose kit.
I verify the motor plate and say 5800rpm. Also the weight of the engine say 475lbs not 450
. I have a situation with the alarm. In the first run 50+ MPH she sound and stalling, I idle and the alarm stop after a few seconds. When I run more time the alarm sound at 43 then at 40 and keep falling. I belleive the first time was because overrev, but I am not sure because the tach is not working propperly. I buy as full gauge set and maybe installed next week. I touch the block heads and is not hot.
The volts is on 13v. I need to get to a mechanic that have the scanner, Iff anyone this condition sound familliar please let me know.

HIGH LIFE
01-08-2011, 01:28 PM
Bompapen, Get a service manual for your motor, and check model #. I have one for my 300X, there is a sequence for how many times the alarm horn beeps. Could be low oil in the tank on motor - might have to bleed air in this tank, happened to me once. "HIGH LIFE"

Greg Guimond
01-15-2011, 07:40 AM
I just looked at this thread again and the picture below where the gas tank is 90% full. I can't tell how many inches above the water line the lip of the splashwell is but I'm going to guess 5". Bompanen, that is really not that bad considering the extra weight of the 3L motor. If you can, let us know what the inches are with the tank full and then with the tank empty, that would be very interesting.

BOMPAPEN
01-15-2011, 10:13 PM
I was in the process off empty the gas tank running the boat last week and have the measure, then fill the tank and measure again. But when I have the situation with the alarm, I stop the boat with about half tank. The boat is in my vacation home and I be there again first weekend off February. I buy the owners and service manual for verify the alarm isue. Also buy the water temp sensor based on the alarm continue sound. Hope this solve the problem and run the boat until the gas tank is empty have the measures and install the new Teleflex Pro steering system. This forum help me in select the correct parts for my boat also improve the setup, I am interested in continue to write in this forum all the way until have the boat perform the best it can.

Greg Guimond
01-16-2011, 09:50 PM
It will be interesting to see the numbers. Here is an excerpt of a note from a person who has a 16 OB. It was originally powered by a V4 and then he swapped to bigger power;

I measured and marked the waterline at the transom with permanent marker,
comparing the the direct-transom-mount Johnson 150 V4, vs. the Promax 225X with
BMS Jackplate and doubly-reinforced transom, my swim platform and ladder, no
passengers, at rest. I'm going out to the garage now to give you the specs
.... We lost 2.5" of waterline. Fortunately, even with the boat loaded
with gear and four passengers (one of my buddies is a super tall fella, must
weigh high-200s), the boat accelerates, rides, handles and goes like a
dream. It does take a little water into the splashwell when backing up,
however this quickly drains out the skupper as soon as I take off.

BOMPAPEN
01-17-2011, 03:14 PM
He said lost 2.5" but, Do you know the measure from the transom to the waterline? I believe mine is very close to the 5" you said before. I buy a jackplate before receive the boat. I believe moving back the engine maybe affect too much the balance. Iff I not get the numbers I want maybe considere install the jackplate as last option.

Greg Guimond
01-17-2011, 04:17 PM
How many inches of setback is the jackplate and is it powered or manual?

BOMPAPEN
01-18-2011, 06:59 PM
This is the only information I have http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120630864307&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AITMy brother receive it in FL because is too expensive ship to here. He come to the island in March and come with the jackplate. This Jackplate dont have the pump. Maybe I can use the old engine trim pump or buy a new one.

Greg Guimond
01-18-2011, 07:51 PM
Hard to tell from the photo but it looks like 7" setback. More then you need, with that 3L 225 you could go with a 4" manual plate.

Greg Guimond
02-10-2011, 09:31 PM
BOMPANEN, any more feedback on how that 3L runs?

BOMPAPEN
02-19-2011, 11:08 PM
I can come to my beach house until yesterday. I change the impeller and buy a DDT scanner. The ECM have a total of 11 faults, too much to tell why the alarm sound. I erase all and run today very late, reach 51MPH and the alarm sound. Tomorrow I verify the ECM again and see what fault is recorded. I still have the gas tank full and mark the water line today. Dont measure yet.

Greg Guimond
04-03-2011, 09:12 PM
Ttt .............

Greg Guimond
04-07-2011, 01:58 PM
What happened to the BOMP :boggled:

BOMPAPEN
04-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Hi Greg

I was frustrated with the engine because 3 mechanics cant find the alarm situation and cant connect the tach. I buy the scanner and time to time go to work with the engine. I solve the alarm issue. The person who install the engine in FL disconnect the water press sensor to connect the water press gauge. Also connect the tach to the digital sender and the trim gauge too. I buy a new set of gauges thinking the tach is bad. Finally connect the tach. Before solve the tach issue I run the boat with a 4 blade 21 pitch and run strong to 61. this prop is when my wife is with me. Better planning speed. Next I verify with the scanner and have the overspeed activated. Not sure how rpms running. This weekend I try to install the Hyd steering. I cant measure the height off the transom above water yet because the dock was very windy. The bushing in the lower mount is very bad. I buy new and be in the process of buy the lifting eye for install it and raise the engine two bolts.
I cant work with the boat more because is about 110 miles from my house but the things are improve and I am on track again.

Greg Guimond
04-07-2011, 06:15 PM
Good to hear you are back on track now BOMPAPEN. Looks like you are making progress if you got to 61 and still have rpm left, good luck!

BOMPAPEN
04-11-2011, 09:08 AM
Here is a pics from last run.

BOMPAPEN
04-21-2011, 12:04 AM
Gas tank full 5 inch with 1/8 gas 3 3/4 inch. My engine have holes in the front of the gearcase. I block the side water intake leave only open the holes in the nose and the water press reach 7 psi. The water alarm never sound. I use the 30 inch ET prop and reach 60 mph at 5000 rpm with the engine at full trim up. After installing the hyd steering I will rise the engine all the bolts an see how it run with this prop.

Greg Guimond
04-21-2011, 11:39 PM
Do you have a coned lower unit from Bob's? If you can take a pic of the lower next time post it up. Interesting on the measurements.

BOMPAPEN
04-24-2011, 09:58 PM
The holes in the nosecone area are factory made. Have four holes facing front. In the workbook of the engine detailed this flow go directly to the impeller housing. I cant find a 4 inch setback manual Jack Plate. The only one I see is a two pieces and need a car jack to raise the engine. Iff I go with a manual, want to raise with a wrench. Next weekend I will start the change of the Hyd steering.

dwiggl
04-25-2011, 02:07 PM
You should check out the eggbeater experts on Scream & Fly .com
Those guys have TONs of input on jack plates, setback, height, water pressure, & diagnosing codes. They even like Donzi owners! They hooked me up with an outboard prop guy (Rich Junker) who is just great to work with out of Florida. He knows high speed Deep Vee outboards.
Now if I only could add that 18 H/M I/O to my quiver....
Don
http://www.screamandfly.com/forumdisplay.php?20-Technical-Discussion
http://www.leadingedgepropeller.com/

Greg Guimond
04-25-2011, 06:01 PM
BOMPANEN, while you find the needed jack plate, just raise your motor up one notch and see how it runs. If I remember correctly around 2002 Merc began to offer nose water inlets on there 3L motors so you will be fine for pressure (obviously still watch gauges) and you need to get that motor higher. Post a pic of your lower unit as well if its easy for you. I am assuming nose inlets only and no side inlets?

BOMPAPEN
05-01-2011, 07:00 PM
I see a Whaler 19 with a JPL 4400 Vance Manufacturing Jack plate and look very nice, look strong and well finished. Can be raised from inside the boat with a single wrench. http://www.vancemfg.com/untitled23.html
Where is the boat dont have facilities for rise the engine or install a Jackplate . I must take from my shop an engine jack and take it to the boat. In the weekend of May 21 and 22 I try to install the hyd steering and iff I have time left install the Jackplate.

BOMPAPEN
07-07-2011, 09:50 AM
I buy the Vance Jackplate. Move the boat to my home, it is very difficult to finish all projects in the weekends I go to my vac house. I install the Jackplate and the Sea Star Pro hyd steering, finish the restoration of the gauge housings, reseal the transom holes and in proces of install the plastic hose for the cables from the engine to the hull. I purge the system follow all the instruction on the manual and have a little sponge move. It is not full locked. Have about a 1/8 of inch movement side to side. Dont know iff this normal or have to be more firm. I buy two more bottles of fluid and purge again. Still the same. Any advise on this.

BOMPAPEN
07-07-2011, 10:04 AM
Forgot to post the pics :bonk:

silverghost
07-07-2011, 10:46 AM
I have intalled three of these SeaStar Hydraulic steering systems..
When you stop turning the steering wheel you should have NO movement in the steering cylinder assembly at all. The steering cylinder should be solid.
I suspect you still have a very small amount of air trapped in your system.
This will give you a spongy feel & slight movement.
You should not have any slop or slack at all.
You need to purge the system again.

BOMPAPEN
07-07-2011, 04:00 PM
Thanks for your info. How many bottles I should use for each side?
David Vilá

haines hunter v19r
07-07-2011, 06:04 PM
If i mount a 25inch 200hp merc to a 16 ob with modified transom, will it through the balance of the boat out too much ?

Greg Guimond
07-07-2011, 07:31 PM
haines, forget the 25", go 20"

BOMPAPEN, the Pro System is a little tricky. The easy way to get 101% of the movement out of it is to use the purging tool that they make for it. See if the dealer that you bought it from has the tool, it will save you a LOT of time.

Looks like you are moving along nicely. I do have a question. I am looking at your lower unit and are you saying that you have (4) holes in the nose as well as the side inlet holes? It might be possible that you have a Fleetmaster lower unit on that 225.

Greg Guimond
07-07-2011, 07:36 PM
That skeg is very long .........if you do have nose holes you can raise that motor a bit and run it an inch below the hull.

Greg Guimond
07-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Here is a little light reading on lower unit specifics from my thread "Building Surface Tension" that you might find of interest............

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showpost.php?p=582810&postcount=186

BOMPAPEN
07-08-2011, 04:00 PM
I remember you ask before about the lower unit Greg. I dont know how to identify it. I go to take some pictures today of different angles of the unit and post it, it can help. Do you know the part number of the bleeder tool?

Greg Guimond
07-08-2011, 07:10 PM
That tool is something you want to borrow and not buy. It is pretty expensive for a once a year use.

On the lower unit, does yours have 4 holes in the nose?

BOMPAPEN
07-13-2011, 12:44 AM
Yes 4 holes

Greg Guimond
07-13-2011, 08:55 AM
Ok that photo explains it. Looks like someone took the drill to your nose cone area. That is not a factory job and is not a Fleetmaster. Call the guys you bought the motor from and ask them for some more information.

HIGH LIFE
07-15-2011, 04:00 PM
Greg, Should I sell BOMPAPEN a SportMaster lower ?

Greg Guimond
07-15-2011, 05:30 PM
A Sporty won't help him as the boat is too slow at 60mph and can't take advantage of the Sporty's hydrodynamics. He needs to find out what they did to that lower unit that he has on the 3L. It may be perfectly fine for his app, I just get a little concerned when I see non standard work on a snout as that is all that stands between your kiester and an "oh chit" moment.

BOMPAPEN
07-30-2011, 09:50 PM
I verify with other 225 of the same year and with the shop manual and these holes are original for the engine. I was busy towing my Bertram 33 for 137 nautical miles with the Donzi. Take me 21 hours in 3 days from the northeast to the southwest coast of PR. I add a full charge of oil to the gas tank every time refuel for minimize the stress and use a 16 dia 11 pitch prop. Cruise 6 to 8 MPH at 2400 rpms. I must tow the boat or disasemble the bridge for clear the bridges.

I run the Donzi with the jackplate and the tempest 27 in the position I have in the pic of my last post. She runs around 60mph again. I try the ET 30 pitch and the same speed again. I verify the compression in each cyl and have aprox 120 all around. Then find a fault plug and replace all 6. Run with the ET, 68.1 mph at 5750 and overspeed alarm sound. That give me an eficiency of 73%. This prop dont have the dar to move this heavy hull. Tomorrow I will try the tempest 27 again.

dsparis
07-31-2011, 07:59 AM
I was busy towing my Bertram 33 for 137 nautical miles with the Donzi.

WoW!!!

BOMPAPEN
07-31-2011, 06:17 PM
I am in the proces of repower. The Bertram was on a marina at Fajardo Far Northeast point of PR. I pay $550.00 monthly. Rigth now is out off the water at Cabo Rojo with zero payment.

zelatore
07-31-2011, 10:23 PM
I was busy towing my Bertram 33 for 137 nautical miles with the Donzi. Take me 21 hours in 3 days from the northeast to the southwest coast of PR.

OK, that deserves some sort of award. Either 'iron man' or 'crazy man' - I'm not sure!

Fajaro?....Bertrams?.... I'm having a flash back to last January...

Just Say N20
07-31-2011, 10:40 PM
What an amazing journey. Obviously you had another boat running along with you for safety (someone took the pictures).

Still a remarkable achievement.

Congratulations!

Greg Guimond
07-31-2011, 10:51 PM
Holy crap BOMPANEN..........:eek: Now that is a first!!

Donzi 16 OB Baby's, NOT your average tow boat :tongue:

GBond
08-01-2011, 01:06 AM
Yeah....Holy Chit! You were determined. Those last two pix....geezzus.
Good to see everything worked out.

Walt. H.
08-01-2011, 01:23 AM
I was busy towing my Bertram 33 for 137 nautical miles with the Donzi.

WoW!!!

OK, that deserves some sort of award. Either 'iron man' or 'crazy man' - I'm not sure!

Fajaro?....Bertrams?.... I'm having a flash back to last January...
Oh Yeah' you're certainly due for the David and Goliath mega tow of the year award for 3-days/21 hr's, and I dare ask what was your fuel consumption?
I'm sure glad the weather was on your side otherwise someone might have been visiting Davey Jone's locker?
A sea towing Tug you're not!
WH

BOMPAPEN
08-01-2011, 03:07 PM
I dont calculate the Fuel comsumption .my best remember 10 to 12 gph

BOMPAPEN
08-01-2011, 04:27 PM
Few more pics. First in front of El Conquistador Hotel at Fajardo last the back up boat in front of Cabo Rojo lighthouse.:cool::shades:

Just Say N20
08-01-2011, 04:31 PM
I have to ask, what is wrong with the Bertram that it was not able to make the trip under it's own power?

zelatore
08-01-2011, 04:37 PM
I believe he said he was getting it ready for a re-power?

BOMPAPEN
08-01-2011, 04:42 PM
Last year I blow an engine and decide to repower both. Have the shortblocks ready installed. Have to install the shortblocks alone because dont have the crane to install a full engine. I buy a property in Cabo Rojo and have free boat park. I hope finish the engines this year.

Just Say N20
08-02-2011, 07:07 AM
OK. From the first post, I thought maybe there was one engine that was running.

3 years ago we put 300 miles on the CARVER running 8.5 mph on one engine as an experiment to try and improve the 2.5 gallons per mile fuel consumption, so I know you can run a boat that way (Crusader 454/350 hp straight inboards, 2.92:1 trans, 24 x 28 4 blades).

And, 8.5 mph @ 2,200 rpm on a single engine yielded right at 1.0 mpg. Interestingly, using both engines at 8.5 mph @ 1,500 rpm yielded 1.3 mpg. The only thing I can figure is that the engines in the CARVER are so far apart, that I had to run with so much rudder to go straight, that it scrubbed the fuel efficiency down.

zelatore
08-02-2011, 10:00 AM
And, 8.5 mph @ 2,200 rpm on a single engine yielded right at 1.0 mpg. Interestingly, using both engines at 8.5 mph @ 1,500 rpm yielded 1.3 mpg. The only thing I can figure is that the engines in the CARVER are so far apart, that I had to run with so much rudder to go straight, that it scrubbed the fuel efficiency down.

Yeah, I've never thought much of running boats like this on one engine. They don't steer for crap unless you're in really flat conditions and as you've seen it takes a ton of counter rudder to go straight. I had suspected but not actually tested the economy as you did.

If you really wanted better economy, I bet if you dropped from 8.5 to 7.5 or 8 mph it would go up from 1.3 mpg. (that seems a bit low) The 38 doesn't have a lot of water line length, and I would think at 8.5 mph you're just starting to climb the bow wave/squat at the stern. Dropping down to 7.5 mph might get you up to 2 mpg.

Of course this begs the question of just how slow you're willing to go.

Curious, what speed/economy do you get at 3000 rpm? 3500? Have you graphed it? I would think you'd be around 15 knots and .6 nmpg at 3000 but I haven't actually tested that hull.

BOMPAPEN
08-02-2011, 08:27 PM
The answer for a best fuel economy is Hull Speed. When I decide to tow the Bertram 33 I read all the info I can get about this term. I found this site to calculate HS http://www.psychosnail.com/boatspeedcalculator.aspx

Other site say,Hull speed is the speed of a boat at which the bow and stern waves interfere constructively, creating relatively large waves, and thus a relatively large value of wave drag. Iff you want to pass these speed you must plane your boat or you are waste a lot of fuel.

The hull speed of my boat is around 8 MPH. I keep my speed all time bellow this. I mantain 7 MPH and when a wave help reach 8 and when slow me go down to 6 aprox. The boat also dont have props, the Donzi have an only 11 pitch prop with large blade area. I receive the wind from the back 99% of the time. I think pull a hull at the center maybe is more efective than push from one side. Also I tie the tow rope to the lower unit just above the cavitation plate. Last year I blow an engine and canot cruise over than 8 mph.

BOMPAPEN
08-05-2011, 02:42 PM
Greg, back to the Donzi setup. I ran the 27 tempest in the same engine height.
First run 72.6 mph, Second 73.9. Third 74.1, Fourth 74.4, and final 74.2
The fourth and final runs was on opposite directions with 74.3 mph avg @ 5400 rpms. I trim the engine up to improve my speed to 74 mph. Have a pic where I run the 74.4 mph
The boat tend to incline to the left at that trim angle, but I turn the wheel a little to the right time to time and can run straight for over a minute in the last 3 runs. I will try to raise the engine all way up 4 bolt holes and run again to get the 350 rpms I have left and maybe get close to 79 mph, if I can control it.

BOMPAPEN
08-12-2011, 04:16 PM
Greg Guimond run 81 mph in a Baby 16. That give me hope to reach the 80 mph mark.

BOMPAPEN
09-06-2011, 09:23 PM
My first video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSKksEHMDag

Greg Guimond
09-07-2011, 03:56 AM
Nice progress! Are you running a Tempest or the Tempest Plus? I have found the Tempest Plus to be very fast. Also, does your motor have a tag on it with the Max RPM? We are looking now for a Bravo 29p to run.

BOMPAPEN
09-13-2011, 10:11 AM
Is a Tempest Plus. I have the workshop manual and say 5750 max rpm. Dont remember the #s on tag. I move the engine up to the last bolt and the boat lost the bow lift and start to propwalk and slip a lot. What prop do you think I need to use at max height?

Greg Guimond
09-13-2011, 09:01 PM
That is tough to say. First, get the boat on the trailer on level ground. Put a level on the trailer and adjust until dead level. Then put the level on the cav plate and adjust that until level. Then see exactly where the prop shaft and nose cone lines up to the keel of the boat. You have to check this first, then prop from there.

BOMPAPEN
12-12-2011, 02:59 PM
I test a Mazco RE3 30 in several positions and run less. The best run was 75.2 @ 5600 with the tempest plus 27 with the prop almost full into the water. Now I will make some simple mods to the engine whithout open the block. Need to find that last 250 rpms. I should reach 77. If I go overspeed then move to a 28 tempest plus. I test about 7 props and the Tempest plus have the best numbers in this heavy boat.

Greg Guimond
12-13-2011, 09:22 AM
BOMPAPEN, 75.2GPS is a good number especially when you consider that you are carrying the extra weight of the 3L motor. Your motor weighs 479lbs which is a bit heavy. The Opti version weighs 497. What is the max RPM of your motor? 5750 sounds too low, there should be a tag on the motor and you should prop to 100RPM over that. I found the Tempest + to be a very fast prop for The Mule. My results are below. For speed only the only faster option was a Bravo.



The best benchracing speed I got with this Promax on the back of The Mule before being spit out of the bucket seat like a piece of gum last year was 79mph. I was spinning a 25" Tempest Plus A45 on 10-23-10, the last run of the year. :angel: With that GPS number in mind and knowing that Surface Tension has become a bit of a piglet in deference to strength and transom/pad rigidity, I think I'll need more rat-a-tat hamsters and more blue smoke to have a legitimate nationwide burner :yes:

Greg Guimond
12-13-2011, 10:15 AM
Also take another 74mph run and the DO NOT CHANGE the trim and motor height. Take of few pictures of that height and angle and post them. I have a few thoughts .........

BOMPAPEN
12-15-2011, 01:53 PM
5750 is in the tag. When the tach reach that rpm the alarm sound. This engine have a lot of torque. I run 50 mph and hit the gas and be over 70 in no time, also if is a passenger with me. The trim angle is almost the same I post before, but I can take other photos and post again. I run with a lot of bowlift , sometimes the boat start to try to get out of the water and you feel is running in the last round area of the keel. Is exciting to run.

Greg Guimond
12-15-2011, 09:39 PM
BOMPAPEN,
Is this the photo? You may want to investigate transom wedges. If you are running too much positive trim you are loosing forward thrust and that can cause the loss of several mph. You already have the steering bled, and you have what I believe is a Fleetmaster lower unit with 4 nose cone holes, and you have a hydraulic jackplate, correct?

BOMPAPEN
12-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Yep, That is the photo. The Jackplate is manual 4" setback. The lower unit is a stock one that came with the engine with the four holes. I dont use a nosecone and have 15 psi of water. I run maybe an inch higher but at the same angle. I will be there next week and can take a clear foto.

BUIZILLA
12-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Bompa.... can you do me a HUGE favor?

measure from the top of the transom to the underside of the engine mount bracket itself at the rollover lip, IOW the raised distance from the transom to the lip, in your best performing trim

purty please

Greg Guimond
12-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Bomp, you probably have a Fleetmaster lower unit. It has a snub nose and four inlet holes. This is the proper case for your speed, you do not need a nose cone. If you have to run excessive trim you will loose speed, this may mean you need what is called transom wedges. Ideally, you want to boats angle of attack to be be less then 10 degrees for max forward thrust. If not this can cost you 3+ MPH. Also, 4" setback might need to be a little more. When you investigate wedges also see if you can get them set up as 2" spacers as well to get you to 6".

One day, when you have time get the Marina to put a single sling under your boat and move it until it is balanced to check the center of gravity with fuel

BOMPAPEN
12-29-2011, 02:30 PM
Buizilla, The measure is 6 7/8". Greg , I really dont know for what is the transom wedges, it is for help the trim angle. I can go down and up trim I needed. I really dont want to move the engine more back, When I install the jack plate I see the diference in moving the weigh of the engine. I use a lot of trim because I run faster on the gps at that angle. Not sure the degrees but can find today. I choose this engine for have more torque. I cruise 54mph @ 4300 rpms with four people and top close to 70.

BUIZILLA
12-29-2011, 03:58 PM
thanx

Greg Guimond
12-29-2011, 07:46 PM
It depends on if you want to become a charter member of the 80mph club :crossfing: You may run fast with a lot of trim, but you won't run the fastest that is possible with your motor and set up. Too much trim = less speed :frown:

BOMPAPEN
12-31-2011, 08:38 PM
I run today with 1/4 of gas at a higher trim than the last run (see pics). Run 77.7 @5750 rpms (overspeed alarm sound) Have a slip of .083% and run the other way 76.2. , Your coment sound logical but iff I run faster with more trim , I believe I need to raise the engine a little more in the jackplate to get more prop out of the water without loose the grip. I try to run one time at maximun height but dont work. I will try a 1/2 inch at a time. even with a zero slip I Cant reach the 80 mark with these prop. I considere a Tempest plus 28 Lab.

BUIZILLA
12-31-2011, 09:20 PM
Bompa.... can you take a close up pic of the engine mounted to the jackplate at the transom so I can see some clearance stuff?

Greg Guimond
01-01-2012, 01:52 PM
BOMPAPEN, I assume you have a mechanical jackplate. If that is true you need to jack the motor up in 1/4" increments. 1/2" is too much at one shot. Take it up another 1/4" and test some more before you switch to a different prop. Nice work. Be sure you aren't messing around with this stuff without a lanyard and vest. You want to be around for the year!!

BOMPAPEN
01-02-2012, 06:44 PM
I will be in the boat in two weeks. You know, need to work for pay this hobby :boat:.

BOMPAPEN
01-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Try to manipulate the photos I have

BOMPAPEN
01-11-2012, 11:30 AM
Have time for only one run last weekend and raise the jackplate 1/4". The speed remain the same 76.6 mph. I will try another 1/4 maybe next week.

BOMPAPEN
04-04-2012, 04:37 PM
Move the jackplate up 1/4" and dont improove. 1/2" and run the same. Try a new Tempest Plus 29 and incredible run less 75.9mph at almost the same rpms in the same height I run 77 with the 27. The new prop is the same brand and model but have a different blade tip . The older is round in the tip with more cup and the new not. The old tempest was used maybe was reworked. Dont know really.

Greg Guimond
04-04-2012, 09:32 PM
It looks like your 27p is the best option. Does your skeg have a built in torque tamer or is it smooth?

Greg Guimond
04-06-2012, 12:23 PM
The reason I ask about the skeg is that you may be be "crabbing" a bit with the hull which will cause you to loose some speed :frown: