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gero1
11-17-2010, 09:12 PM
same boat, would you rather have a 3 axle trailer or 2? why?

mrfixxall
11-17-2010, 10:07 PM
I have both,,i prefer a double axle over a three axle tho,when it comes time to maintain them its cheaper in the long run,less tires to buy,less bearings to repack or replace,less springs and moving parts that go bad..It all adds up.

o almost forgot! if your in a toll state its cheaper going through the toll booth @ .40 cents per axle

Cuda
11-18-2010, 08:17 AM
The middle tire on my triple axle under my Formula caught hell when backing up, but on the highway, I'd rather have six tires than four. With a tandem axle, you'd have to buy heavier axles. I think mine were rated for 3000 pounds, and the boat weighed just over 6000. Captain Jack at Quikload Trailers reccomended the triple axle. He builds trailers for a living and has for years, so I went with his recomendation. I ordered it on a Monday, and it was ready Friday morning, and fit like a glove.
This area has to be the trailer building capital of the country.

zelatore
11-18-2010, 10:34 AM
I have both,,i prefer a double axle over a three axle tho,when it comes time to maintain them its cheaper in the long run,less tires to buy,less bearings to repack or replace,less springs and moving parts that go bad..It all adds up.

o almost forgot! if your in a toll state its cheaper going through the toll booth @ .40 cents per axle

I agree with all that, plus the obvious that it's just easier to back up a tandem vs. a triple. I've towed both, and unless it's a REALLY big boat, I'll stick with tandem.

Granted, Cuda's right that more axles tend to track better down the highway. But unless I spent a huge amount of time on the highway, or maybe my tow rig was a little over-matched by the trailer, I think I'd still want to go tandem.

VetteLT193
11-18-2010, 12:41 PM
I went with 3 axles on mine. I thought backing up was going to be terrible, but it isn't. It's hell on the tires, but doesn't really affect the way it backs up... it goes where I want it to. For actually driving to the water or places though, the safety of the extra axle is worth it.

As far as maintenance, 2 axles is obviously easier, but cost isn't much different. With a spare you have to buy 5 tires instead of 7 but each tire costs more so the price difference can actually be cheaper in favor of the trip axle in certain purchases.

Also check your trailer builder on pricing. Same thing goes for the build of the trailer. Triple can be cheaper because the 'standard' axles, tires, etc are bought in bulk.

Also... I did mine over-kill except for the brakes. I did 3 axles, but only 2 have brakes (forward 2).

Tidbart
11-18-2010, 01:32 PM
Also... I did mine over-kill except for the brakes. I did 3 axles, but only 2 have brakes (forward 2).

That is when you decided to break the law. Shame on you. Don't you work in Tallahassee. You should know better.:wink:

B

Forrest
11-18-2010, 01:57 PM
That is when you decided to break the law. Shame on you. Don't you work in Tallahassee. You should know better.:wink:

B

Florida Trailer Brake Law: Required over 3000 lbs. GVW, On all wheels.

I have Kodiak disc brakes only on the front axle of my tandom-axle trailer under my Magnum and plans are in the works to install a matching set on the rear axle soon. There were few times where I could have use a little more stopping power in order to raise the comfort factor to an acceptable level. :eek:

joseph m. hahnl
11-18-2010, 02:54 PM
same boat, would you rather have a 3 axle trailer or 2? why?
The extra axle is for Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings, distribution of weight for road limits. Also for distributing the weight on the tires, as the tires have load limits on them. The tire could fail if overloaded with to heavy of a boat.
Note: that the trailer tires should be able to carry the load even if one fails.


http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm#refrn11

Overloading a trailer beyond its rated capacity, even though it may be well balanced and seem to handle fine, is a very dangerous practice. Eventually something is bound to fail with dramatic and unpleasant results. Overloading places excess strain not only on your tow vehicle causing possible failures at the hitch or in your capacity to safely bring it to a stop in an emergency, it also overloads the trailer's frame, axles, bearings and tires.

VetteLT193
11-19-2010, 08:10 AM
That is when you decided to break the law. Shame on you. Don't you work in Tallahassee. You should know better.:wink:

B

If I get pulled over I'll take the two rear tires off and drive off.

A stupid law is a stupid law. If you have an overbuilt trailer there is no provision for you. I'd much rather pull, or be driving on the highway along side of, a trailer with an extra axle than one that is maxed out but has brakes on every axle.

I called a ton of places for quotes for both the Minx and the ZXO and every builder I called had the same attitude. I'll build you whatever you want without regard to the state law. S. Fla trailers offered to build a trailer without brakes at all. Ace, TNT, and a few others told me the same thing about Trip axle... two axles standard on brakes. They would happily charge you me for the 3rd axle's brakes but it won't make a difference in trailering ability or braking quality.

oledawg
11-19-2010, 08:20 AM
Actually this is an interesting topic....the trailer for my C22 is the one that came with it new, ie is a "Donzi" trailer and has dual axles. If you use the GVW ratings then with the relatively low weight of a C22 ( think that the boat is around 3200 pounds loaded ) then the individual load rating per tire of 1750 is enough since the remaining 3 tires are plenty even if one fails. Since my trailer sits in the woods next to my lake house 99% of the time all that I really worry about is moving it a little every now and then to keep flat spots, etc. from happening. Every five years need to replace the tires whether they are worn out or not, which they usually are not, as they age out.

Tidbart
11-19-2010, 08:32 AM
If I get pulled over I'll take the two rear tires off and drive off.

A stupid law is a stupid law. If you have an overbuilt trailer there is no provision for you. I'd much rather pull, or be driving on the highway along side of, a trailer with an extra axle than one that is maxed out but has brakes on every axle.

I called a ton of places for quotes for both the Minx and the ZXO and every builder I called had the same attitude. I'll build you whatever you want without regard to the state law. S. Fla trailers offered to build a trailer without brakes at all. Ace, TNT, and a few others told me the same thing about Trip axle... two axles standard on brakes. They would happily charge you me for the 3rd axle's brakes but it won't make a difference in trailering ability or braking quality.


Devil's advocate:
I don't necessarily agree the law is stupid. I also don't think that manufacturers should be allowed to sell trailers that don't meet the law in the state the sales are made. Assume a trailer is not overbuilt. If it requires 3 axles to carry the load, wouldn't it require enough braking to stop that load?
If stopped and check, if it would ever happen, how is a cop supposed to know that the sets of brakes on the front wheels will stop a loaded trailer? He is more inclined to believe that one with brakes on all wheels will stop it.
How does your insurance company feel about it? Did you ask them? What happens when you get in an accident and they find out your trailer doesn't meet code? Do they walk away and say you are on your own (not pay)? Did they assume the trailer was legal? Did they check?
Sounds like all these manufacturers will do anything, including sacrifice the public safety, to make a sale.
I also call BS on any of them who would say a third set of brakes would not make a difference in braking. The physics say otherwise.
Would you drive your family around in a car that had just one set of brakes? Homey don't think so.:wink:

Tidbart
11-19-2010, 08:46 AM
Actually this is an interesting topic....the trailer for my C22 is the one that came with it new, ie is a "Donzi" trailer and has dual axles. If you use the GVW ratings then with the relatively low weight of a C22 ( think that the boat is around 3200 pounds loaded ) then the individual load rating per tire of 1750 is enough since the remaining 3 tires are plenty even if one fails. Since my trailer sits in the woods next to my lake house 99% of the time all that I really worry about is moving it a little every now and then to keep flat spots, etc. from happening. Every five years need to replace the tires whether they are worn out or not, which they usually are not, as they age out.

When I built mine, I used the following rough numbers

Boat dry 3500
Fuel, gear, etc 500
Trailer 500
Total 4500

I put a single 6000# axle with 3000# tires on it.

With the two axles you can be less conservative. They probable put 2-3000# axles. If you lost one tire, the 3 left would easily carry the rated load of 5250.

B

Tidbart
11-19-2010, 08:50 AM
Also remember that the brakes on a trailer should be rated to bring itself to a stop when not attached to a vehicle, no assistance from the tow vehicle.

B

zelatore
11-19-2010, 03:06 PM
When I built mine, I used the following rough numbers

Boat dry 3500
Fuel, gear, etc 500
Trailer 500
Total 4500

I put a single 6000# axle with 3000# tires on it.

With the two axles you can be less conservative. They probable put 2-3000# axles. If you lost one tire, the 3 left would easily carry the rated load of 5250.

B

500 lbs for the trailer alone? I've never weighed my trailer (aluminum twin axle for a C22) but that seems a bit light. Not a big deal I'm sure, but I would have guessed the trailer to weight at least 50% more than that.

I generally use 5000 lbs as the 'guestimate' weight for my rig. As I've always towed with a full size truck it's never been an issue, but I'm about to downgrade to an over-weight/under-powered SUV, so I probalby should get that thing to a scale some day.

CHACHI
11-20-2010, 06:57 AM
Devil's advocate:

Would you drive your family around in a car that had just one set of brakes? Homey don't think so.:wink:

Some of this boards more mature members likely did. :wink:


Ken

Cuda
11-20-2010, 08:42 AM
That is when you decided to break the law. Shame on you. Don't you work in Tallahassee. You should know better.:wink:

B
I only had brakes on one wheel, I relied more on the brakes of the F 350 I was pulling it with. I pulled it fine with an F 150, but stopping was problematic.

As far as maintaince, six pumps of axle grease isn't much harder than four. I think I bought one set of tires in 22 years on my fishboat. Tires are a non issue. I rebuilt the undercarraige of the trailer once in 22 years.

Cuda
11-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Also remember that the brakes on a trailer should be rated to bring itself to a stop when not attached to a vehicle, no assistance from the tow vehicle.

B
The only way my trailer would come off is if the boat was upside down, then I would count on friction. When I first got out of high school I worked pipe line construction. I was pulling a heavy tubing trailer when it became unhitched from the truck (idiots at the yard) the safety chains kept it behind the truck. I just slowed down and let the trailer run into the truck until I got it stopped. Safety chains are a lot more important than brakes on all axles. I doubt any cop that pulls you over would have any idea of the trailer laws.

Cuda
11-20-2010, 09:03 AM
500 lbs for the trailer alone? I've never weighed my trailer (aluminum twin axle for a C22) but that seems a bit light. Not a big deal I'm sure, but I would have guessed the trailer to weight at least 50% more than that.

I generally use 5000 lbs as the 'guestimate' weight for my rig. As I've always towed with a full size truck it's never been an issue, but I'm about to downgrade to an over-weight/under-powered SUV, so I probalby should get that thing to a scale some day.
My triple axle floated, aluminum trailers are very light.

Cuda
11-20-2010, 09:18 AM
Actually this is an interesting topic....the trailer for my C22 is the one that came with it new, ie is a "Donzi" trailer and has dual axles. If you use the GVW ratings then with the relatively low weight of a C22 ( think that the boat is around 3200 pounds loaded ) then the individual load rating per tire of 1750 is enough since the remaining 3 tires are plenty even if one fails. Since my trailer sits in the woods next to my lake house 99% of the time all that I really worry about is moving it a little every now and then to keep flat spots, etc. from happening. Every five years need to replace the tires whether they are worn out or not, which they usually are not, as they age out.
The trailer under Howard O's trailer is the original "Donzi" trailer. I think it was a fixed bunk Contental trailer. It is a tandem axle.

joseph m. hahnl
11-20-2010, 06:38 PM
I don't believe that the 1 set of brakes per axle applies up here in NH.
Technically though surge breaks are illegal as the brakes of the trailer are suppose to be able to be activated from inside the tow vehicle.
I'm sure there is a Ratio for the weight of the load to the capacity of the brake force. I think three axles and six brakes is way overkill for a 2700 lbs boat,but if you can afford it, what the hay, that's your choice.
As far as using the tow vehicle to stop a brake less trailer. The trailer could push the tow vehicle off the road, especially on slippery roads like up here where snow, ice , rain and road oil can be an issue.
I'm in the process of upgrading my brakes to electric, and possibly to disc.

Maybe I should put 1 set for each axle to be legal in all 50 states:salute:

CHACHI
11-20-2010, 07:20 PM
JMH, are you saying that only electric or electric over hydraulic are legal in NH?

The cops could have a ball at any ramp around Winnie in the summer.

Probably could lower the mil rate of all the surrounding towns.

Ken

zelatore
11-20-2010, 07:52 PM
I believe surge brakes can be rigged with a small cable to trip a lever that locks the brakes. Attach the cable to the tow vehicle, and if they seperate the traile brakes are fully activated.

I lost a trailer once, many years ago. 24' box trailer. That'll get your attention! And yes, the chains did their job and the only damage done was where the draw bar drug on the ground. Seems the owner of the truck/trailer (my boss) had put the pin in the hitch but not the retaining clip.

Cuda
11-20-2010, 07:53 PM
As far as using the tow vehicle to stop a brake less trailer. The trailer could push the tow vehicle off the road, especially on slippery roads like up here where snow, ice , rain and road oil can be an issue.
I'm in the process of upgrading my brakes to electric, and possibly to disc.

Maybe I should put 1 set for each axle to be legal in all 50 states:salute:

The truck was heavier in both cases. The F-350 weighed 9900 pounds. We don't get much snow or ice here jn Florida, and I wouldn't be going boating in those conditions anyway.

Cuda
11-20-2010, 07:57 PM
I believe surge brakes can be rigged with a small cable to trip a lever that locks the brakes. Attach the cable to the tow vehicle, and if they seperate the traile brakes are fully activated.

I lost a trailer once, many years ago. 24' box trailer. That'll get your attention! And yes, the chains did their job and the only damage done was where the draw bar drug on the ground. Seems the owner of the truck/trailer (my boss) had put the pin in the hitch but not the retaining clip.

You are correct about the cable that activates surge brakes if separated from the tow vehicle.

Greg Guimond
11-21-2010, 04:55 AM
You folks down in Florida get all the good trailer options. If one were to draw a circle around Syracuse of say 100-150 miles are there any builders that can fabricate a galvanized custom trailer? I can't use painted because of the salt water use.

CHACHI
11-21-2010, 05:52 AM
Greg, Performance Trailer is up in Warrensburg, NY (Lake George). I know they build a nice trailer, but I have only seen painted ones.

It is a little more than 150 miles from Syracuse, but...

Ken

gcarter
11-21-2010, 06:16 AM
You folks down in Florida get all the good trailer options. If one were to draw a circle around Syracuse of say 100-150 miles are there any builders that can fabricate a galvanized custom trailer? I can't use painted because of the salt water use.

To each his own, but Greg, what's wrong w/an aluminum trailer?

I noticed on my one trip to kentucky that a LOT of the Mid-West owners seemed to like steel trailers...........
Why is that?

Cuda
11-21-2010, 07:24 AM
You folks down in Florida get all the good trailer options. If one were to draw a circle around Syracuse of say 100-150 miles are there any builders that can fabricate a galvanized custom trailer? I can't use painted because of the salt water use.
Galvanized will rust too. It just takes longer. Aluminum is the only way to go. A galvanized trailer will weigh twice as much as an aluminum.

Cuda
11-21-2010, 07:28 AM
One dip in saltwater, and it is all over for a steel trailer. I had a friend that bought a steel Myco. They told him it wouldn't rust. It did and he was NOT a happy camper.
Rust never sleeps.

joseph m. hahnl
11-21-2010, 08:32 AM
JMH, are you saying that only electric or electric over hydraulic are legal in NH?

The cops could have a ball at any ramp around Winnie in the summer.

Probably could lower the mil rate of all the surrounding towns.

Ken

Yes and No:boggled:
Any brake that can not be manually applied inside the tow vehicle is illegal, It is just over looked because most trailer brakes are surge activated .

I believe surge brakes can be rigged with a small cable to trip a lever that locks the brakes. Attach the cable to the tow vehicle, and if they seperate the traile brakes are fully activated.


This is true, But this does not full fill the requirement that the brake can be manually operated from the tow vehicle. The safety lever puts full brake force on. You have to pull over and unlock the brakes.


The truck was heavier in both cases. The F-350 weighed 9900 pounds. We don't get much snow or ice here jn Florida, and I wouldn't be going boating in those conditions anyway.

I,m Talking about Trailers in general.Not necessarily what would Cuda Do.
That is technically why we have mandated Laws. Certain people will do what ever they want regardless of the safety of the people that surround them. Physics are a powerful concept.
Whenever A acts on B with a force F. B acts on A with a force F.
Trailer brakes are designed to remove or alleviate the force of B on A.

zelatore
11-21-2010, 03:33 PM
Wow - I didn't realize they required you to be able to manually activate the brakes. I don't think I've ever seen a boat trailer set up that way. The only thing that would work would be electric over hydraulic.

Of course, I really like having manual brake control. Had it on my flat bed car hauler and it was extremely helpful to alleviate a little sway. Just reach down and drag the trailer brakes and presto - all good.

Or, if you've got an empty trailer and somebody's tailgating you, turn the brake force up all the way and then briefly lock the trailer up while you drive on down the road. That usually gets their attention. :wink:

Cuda - 9900 lbs for an F350? That seems a bit extreme. Don't know what year you had, but I'd guess the truck came in around 5-6,000 lbs; what did you have on it to make her so heavy?

Greg Guimond
11-21-2010, 08:18 PM
To each his own, but Greg, what's wrong w/an aluminum trailer?


I would be very happy to find a good aluminum fabricator if anyone knows one. Weight savings would be great as I am at both ends of the spectrum for tow vehicles and could use the weight savings. I always thought that a combo trailer would be great, with bunks but also some type of mini keel roller to help it winch on if the tide is super low. I know that the Lake George builder does incredible work but probably building solely for freshwater application.

HOWARD O
11-21-2010, 08:46 PM
Wow - I didn't realize they required you to be able to manually activate the brakes. I don't think I've ever seen a boat trailer set up that way. The only thing that would work would be electric over hydraulic.

Of course, I really like having manual brake control. Had it on my flat bed car hauler and it was extremely helpful to alleviate a little sway. Just reach down and drag the trailer brakes and presto - all good.

Or, if you've got an empty trailer and somebody's tailgating you, turn the brake force up all the way and then briefly lock the trailer up while you drive on down the road. That usually gets their attention. :wink:

Cuda - 9900 lbs for an F350? That seems a bit extreme. Don't know what year you had, but I'd guess the truck came in around 5-6,000 lbs; what did you have on it to make her so heavy?

My crewcab weighs somewhere around 7200#, including my shell. I know, I've had the lovely, aromatic fortune of going to the dump a few times this week! The last time I actually needed to use 4wd to get through the muck. That was 3 days ago and I still have the smell in my nostrils! phew...:boggled:

Sorry, I digress! :garfield:

Cuda
11-21-2010, 10:08 PM
Cuda - 9900 lbs for an F350? That seems a bit extreme. Don't know what year you had, but I'd guess the truck came in around 5-6,000 lbs; what did you have on it to make her so heavy?
It weighed 9900 pounds from the factory. My registration said so. I didn't know it was that heavy until someone told me to check.

Cuda
11-21-2010, 10:16 PM
I,m Talking about Trailers in general.Not necessarily what would Cuda Do.
]

I've pulled more trailers than you have probably seen. I had ten trailers at one time.
Oh, by the way, I took physics in high school, so don't try to pull I know more than you crap on me. I only relate what I know in a real world situation. I tell the truth, ignore it at your own peril. it matters not to me, I have no need to prove myself to you.

Tidbart
11-22-2010, 07:55 AM
I don't believe that the 1 set of brakes per axle applies up here in NH.
Technically though surge breaks are illegal as the brakes of the trailer are suppose to be able to be activated from inside the tow vehicle.


Joseph,
If I remember correctly, NH only requires brakes on trailers over 3000# GVW. The brakes have to be in good working order and must be adequate to control the vehicle. However, the combination of vehicles must be able to stop in 30' going 20 mph. This would mean you might need brakes on all axles under certain situations. As far as knew, surge brakes were not illegal and the brakes don't have to be able to be operated from inside the tow vehicle. Where did you here this?
You also need safety chains.

B

BUIZILLA
11-22-2010, 08:58 AM
It weighed 9900 pounds from the factory. My registration said so. I didn't know it was that heavy until someone told me to check. Joe, your GVWR was 9,900#, your ACTUAL truck weight was around 7,200, i'm more than 110% positive of this :wink: my F350 SRW diesel weighed 7205 empty and 7455 with me in it at Bristol Motor Speedways certified NASCAR scales, their accuracy is within 1%, my GVWR was also 9,900# :convertib:

VetteLT193
11-22-2010, 12:24 PM
Devil's advocate:
I don't necessarily agree the law is stupid. I also don't think that manufacturers should be allowed to sell trailers that don't meet the law in the state the sales are made. Assume a trailer is not overbuilt. If it requires 3 axles to carry the load, wouldn't it require enough braking to stop that load?
If stopped and check, if it would ever happen, how is a cop supposed to know that the sets of brakes on the front wheels will stop a loaded trailer? He is more inclined to believe that one with brakes on all wheels will stop it.
How does your insurance company feel about it? Did you ask them? What happens when you get in an accident and they find out your trailer doesn't meet code? Do they walk away and say you are on your own (not pay)? Did they assume the trailer was legal? Did they check?
Sounds like all these manufacturers will do anything, including sacrifice the public safety, to make a sale.
I also call BS on any of them who would say a third set of brakes would not make a difference in braking. The physics say otherwise.
Would you drive your family around in a car that had just one set of brakes? Homey don't think so.:wink:

It isn't a fair comparison to say 2 brakes on a car Vs. 4 on my trailer. I'd drive around in a Dually truck with 6 tires and only 4 brakes... That's a better comparison. Or a true 6 wheeled vehicle with only 4 brakes.

I disagree with the physics you speak of to say triple axle trailer will stop better with 6 brakes Vs. 4... IF they are a surge setup. My trailer, fully loaded, stops just as well as any trailer with surge brakes has ever stopped for me including Eddies old 22 which was about half the weight. Meaning: My trailer can keep up with the vehicle stopping. Extra braking capacity wouldn't do anything because with surge brakes if the trailer out-stops the tow vehicle it would stop the brake application all together.

Now... electric over hydraulic or straight electric you are for sure correct because the trailer can help slow the vehicle too... although it can certainly be argued that it shouldn't be used in that manner.

I didn't specifically ask my insurance company. If something were to happen and they tried to pull that crap I would happily fight it seeing as they are a national insurance company and they cover the same trailer in many other states just fine. At this point, my trailer sits empty so it isn't a source of stress by any means.

Also... when it comes to brakes there are a whole bunch more gotchas that don't add up quite so nicely.

I'll use Kodiak as an example because I think it's what most of us have.

My trailer has 2 sets of DBC-225 calipers. If I did my searching correctly these same calipers are used for all axles from 2k - 6k lbs. with varying rotor sizes. So here I am again back to being over built by dragging an extra axle around. Regardless if I was at 2 or 3 axles the same brakes apply.

The reason why trailer companies get away with not conforming to the law is the trailers just don't weigh that much. My trailer is roughly 1,500 pounds empty... well under the 3000 pound limit. The law doesn't say if a trailer is capable of holding 3000+ pounds you need them... only if it is actually over 3000 pounds.

There is a guy near you, platinum boat trailers in Ocala, who I think has a standard triple axle build of 1 set of brakes. Take a good look at the boat ramp next time you have a chance and I think you'll be quite shocked at how many trailers don't comply in a very bad way (i.e., triple axle with one set or no brakes; dual axle with no brakes, etc.) I can honestly say I think the reason for this is the law just lacks common sense.

Tidbart
11-22-2010, 01:53 PM
Let's start with the physics... Braking is all about friction. Friction between the pads and rotors and friction between tires and pavement. Dealing with a trailer that has six wheels and with even weight distribution,.....brakes on all six vs. only four, will give you 50% more braking power, same goes for the surface area between the tire and road, 50% more area. Also, I am assuming that both trailer setups are using the same brake and rotor sizes.
Now keep in mind that I have never said that the 4 brake/6 wheel trailer would not stop just fine. But, the state of Florida cares about your trailer stopping, just fine, and to help insure that it does, they want brakes on every wheel. (and don't bring up the dually thing again, it is not they intended :wink:) They only care that you have brakes on all of the wheels of the trailer. The laws say that specifically. Also, the weight of your trailer has no bearing as the state only looks at the GVW of the trailer, which in my case is 5200# and yours is what? 8000#??? Both of these are over the 3000# GVW limit..... (a)TRAILERs, semiTRAILERs, or pole TRAILERs of a gross weight not exceeding 3,000 pounds,)
As far as the boat ramp, I have no doubt that a very large percentage of trailers out there do not meet the requirements of the law. That doesn't make it right for the manufacturers to build and sell them that way.
What it comes down to is that the state looked at things this way...If a trailer needs additional axles to carry a load, then it needs additional braking to stop the load.
IMO, other states would be better off, safety-wise, to adopt that thinking when it comes to trailers and braking.

B:kingme:B

joseph m. hahnl
11-22-2010, 02:20 PM
Joseph,
If I remember correctly, NH only requires brakes on trailers over 3000# GVW. The brakes have to be in good working order and must be adequate to control the vehicle. However, the combination of vehicles must be able to stop in 30' going 20 mph. This would mean you might need brakes on all axles under certain situations. As far as knew, surge brakes were not illegal and the brakes don't have to be able to be operated from inside the tow vehicle. Where did you here this?
You also need safety chains.

B

It's 1500 lbs GVWR here, yes 30' /20 mph. I heard the brake thing from the Uhaul guy. I did some research because you had me wondering if the guy was full of it. Very Very Hard to find any real information on the subject. I came across this article. I'll post the link but will give you some of the paragraphs contained with in it. Maybe you can add some insight.

http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/extension/extprog/safety/Highway/TrailerBrakes.pdf

NOTE*** the following is a cut and Paste not the tone of ranting madman yelling in capitol letters and bold print:wink:


TRAILER BRAKES:

All states require that

every trailer or

semitrailer with a


gross vehicle weight

rating (GVWR) of 3,000 lbs


or greater is

required to have brakes “adequate to control
the movement of and to stop and to hold” the
vehicle. The trailer brakes may be air, electric
or hydraulic, but must be applied by the driver
of the towing vehicle from its cab.


State and Federal regulations require
brakes on all wheels


if the vehicle is

required to have brakes. Therefore, tandem
and triple axle trailers are required to have
brakes on all wheels, not just on one axle.
Also, all brakes are required to function
properly at all times.



Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
regulations clearly do not allow hydraulic
surge brakes. Regulations require that all
brakes must be capable of operating at all
times. According to the department, surge
brakes do not meet this requirement because
they can operate only when the vehicle is
traveling forward.

joseph m. hahnl
11-22-2010, 02:35 PM
I've pulled more trailers than you have probably seen. I had ten trailers at one time.
Oh, by the way, I took physics in high school, so don't try to pull I know more than you crap on me. I only relate what I know in a real world situation. I tell the truth, ignore it at your own peril. it matters not to me, I have no need to prove myself to you.

That's okay if you did, do or whatever, I really don't care either way. I was just pointing out that it's not all about you.

But most of all I was just ribbing yah a little:jestera:

Sorry if you took offense:yes:

Tidbart
11-22-2010, 02:40 PM
It's 1500 lbs GVWR here, yes 30' /20 mph. I heard the brake thing from the Uhaul guy. I did some research because you had me wondering if the guy was full of it. Very Very Hard to find any real information on the subject. I came across this article. I'll post the link but will give you some of the paragraphs contained with in it. Maybe you can add some insight.

http://bioengr.ag.utk.edu/extension/extprog/safety/Highway/TrailerBrakes.pdf

NOTE*** the following is a cut and Paste not the tone of ranting madman yelling in capitol letters and bold print:wink:


TRAILER BRAKES:


All states require that

every trailer or

semitrailer with a



gross vehicle weight

rating (GVWR) of 3,000 lbs



or greater is

required to have brakes “adequate to control
the movement of and to stop and to hold” the
vehicle. The trailer brakes may be air, electric
or hydraulic, but must be applied by the driver
of the towing vehicle from its cab.


State and Federal regulations require
brakes on all wheels



if the vehicle is Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration


required to have brakes. Therefore, tandem
and triple axle trailers are required to have
brakes on all wheels, not just on one axle.
Also, all brakes are required to function
properly at all times.


regulations clearly do not allow hydraulic
surge brakes. Regulations require that all
brakes must be capable of operating at all
times. According to the department, surge
brakes do not meet this requirement because
they can operate only when the vehicle is
traveling forward.



Joseph,
Here is the state law. It is 3000# for a boat trailer, 1500 for a house trailer. One noticeable difference is in the way NH wrote it vs. FL. NH just says adequate brakes, FL say adequate plus brakes on every wheel. So in NH, if 2 wheels out of 4 are adequate, you can save some $$.
As far as the article, I can see where there is some confusion. The UHaul guys have to conform to different rules then we do. The FMCSA/DOT is looking at commercial motor vehicles not at private ones. Your trailer would not have to meet these regs., just the state ones.

B

266:30 Trailer Brakes. – No motor vehicle trailer or semi-trailer, the weight of which, including its load, is 3,000 pounds or more, shall be driven on the ways of this state unless equipped with adequate brakes in good working order and sufficient to control the said vehicle at all times. No house trailer weighing in excess of 1,500 pounds shall be driven on the ways of this state unless so equipped. This section shall not apply to wood-sawing machines, log splitters, cement mixers, compressors, tar kettles, conveyors, or to devices of 2 wheels used by public utilities for the transportation of cables or poles not exceeding 6 in number, road rollers and sweepers, thawing devices, or to refreshment booths on wheels towed not more than 2 miles at any one time.

Cuda
11-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Joe, your GVWR was 9,900#, your ACTUAL truck weight was around 7,200, i'm more than 110% positive of this :wink: my F350 SRW diesel weighed 7205 empty and 7455 with me in it at Bristol Motor Speedways certified NASCAR scales, their accuracy is within 1%, my GVWR was also 9,900# :convertib:


My registration said 9900 pounds, I'm 100% sure of that, and they charge for the license plate according to what it weighs.

zelatore
11-22-2010, 08:52 PM
My registration said 9900 pounds, I'm 100% sure of that, and they charge for the license plate according to what it weighs.


Sounds to me like they owe you a refund!

Cuda
11-22-2010, 08:54 PM
Let's start with the physics... Braking is all about friction. Friction between the pads and rotors and friction between tires and pavement. Dealing with a trailer that has six wheels and with even weight distribution,.....brakes on all six vs. only four, will give you 50% more braking power, same goes for the surface area between the tire and road, 50% more area. Also, I am assuming that both trailer setups are using the same brake and rotor sizes.
Now keep in mind that I have never said that the 4 brake/6 wheel trailer would not stop just fine. But, the state of Florida cares about your trailer stopping, just fine, and to help insure that it does, they want brakes on every wheel. (and don't bring up the dually thing again, it is not they intended :wink:) They only care that you have brakes on all of the wheels of the trailer. The laws say that specifically. Also, the weight of your trailer has no bearing as the state only looks at the GVW of the trailer, which in my case is 5200# and yours is what? 8000#??? Both of these are over the 3000# GVW limit..... (a)TRAILERs, semiTRAILERs, or pole TRAILERs of a gross weight not exceeding 3,000 pounds,)
As far as the boat ramp, I have no doubt that a very large percentage of trailers out there do not meet the requirements of the law. That doesn't make it right for the manufacturers to build and sell them that way.
What it comes down to is that the state looked at things this way...If a trailer needs additional axles to carry a load, then it needs additional braking to stop the load.
IMO, other states would be better off, safety-wise, to adopt that thinking when it comes to trailers and braking.

B:kingme:B
Stopping power is directly related to the friction of the tires and the road, that's what makes a vehicle stop regardless how you get them to work. It has absolutely nothing to do with how it stops.

Cuda
11-22-2010, 08:57 PM
That's okay if you did, do or whatever, I really don't care either way. I was just pointing out that it's not all about you.

But most of all I was just ribbing yah a little:jestera:

Sorry if you took offense:yes:
No offense taken. I live by two rules:
1. Never sweat the small stuff
2. It's all small stuff. :)

handfulz28
11-22-2010, 09:21 PM
If it requires 3 axles to carry the load, wouldn't it require enough braking to stop that load?

The whole problem with that line of thinking is braking capacity per axle. The axles are rated for weight, but the brakes aren't. So it may very well be that two axles worth of brakes are perfectly capable of providing maximum stopping power for the weight of a triple axle.

The fact that you add another axle really has zero implication to the overall stopping power of the brake package. If you install two axles worth of brakes that are rated to stop 12k lbs, then it shouldn't matter how many axles you have. I can say by personal experience that my triple axle trailer with two axles worth of brakes loaded to near max GVWR couldn't have stopped any better....for a surge setup. Remember for surge brakes the tow vehicle has to impart enough braking power to create the differential inertia. Only with electric/EOH can you "test" the brake package's ability to overcome road friction.

And finally, IMHO the last thing I want is a trailer with so much braking ability that it will lock up the tires in a panic stop.

Tidbart
11-23-2010, 07:01 AM
I have to get back to the original point, which was that Bobby has an illegal trailer, which he does, regardless of how good the brakes are.

The state of Florida, as far as their law is concerned, does not give a rat's azz about what is a better braking setup, in this example, four brakes on a six wheel vs. six on a six wheel. They require a brake on every wheel, period. Thus, eliminating, by simplification, any question as to whether having less brakes than could be put on a trailer is adequate.

The reason the makers of these trailers are still "getting away with it" is that Florida has no safety inspection program. If there was one, and an inspection was required in order to get a registration, you would see a whole different attitude and mindset by the makers and dealers of the trailers.

Keep in mind, that I am just trying to point out what I think the mindset of the lawmakers was in going the way they did with this law versus how a state like NH, for example, went. I am not necessarily promoting or advocating for more laws or enforcement.

Bob

Cuda
11-23-2010, 07:55 AM
I don't think the lawmakers give a rats azz about a trailer.

Like I said before, I guarantee the cops don't know the law, nor should they care. You have a single axle under a 22 foot boat. Do you think it would be safer to have brakes on that single axle, or one set of brakes on a tandem axle?

Tidbart
11-23-2010, 08:08 AM
I don't think the lawmakers give a rats azz about a trailer.
That is a whole other discussion.:bonk:


Like I said before, I guarantee the cops don't know the law, nor should they care.
Who knows whether they know or not, but they should care to the same point they should care about any unsafe vehicle on the road.


You have a single axle under a 22 foot boat. Do you think it would be safer to have brakes on that single axle, or one set of brakes on a tandem axle?
Safer is kind of subjective. Legal is another issue. In your example, I would be legal and the other would not. Agree?

B

PS. Let me know the next time you are driving around Orlando, do lunch.

handfulz28
11-23-2010, 08:17 AM
Safer is kind of subjective. Legal is another issue. In your example, I would be legal and the other would not. Agree?

But wasn't that the point of our discussion, that "legal" doesn't guarantee or automatically provide that something is better or safer? Some of your points were directed towards the idea that complying with the law as written means you have a better/safer setup.

It's really a bad argument to use the lawmakers' motivations to determine adequacy.

And here's some smilies so everybody knows this is friendly discussion...
:shades:
:kingme:
:cool!:

Tidbart
11-23-2010, 08:46 AM
But wasn't that the point of our discussion, that "legal" doesn't guarantee or automatically provide that something is better or safer? Some of your points were directed towards the idea that complying with the law as written means you have a better/safer setup.

:shades:
:kingme:
:cool!:

I agree that legal may not necessarily be safer or better. Some of my comments were guesses as to what the state was thinking when they decided to make the law they way they did.

Originally, my point was to give Bobby some chit for having an "illegal trailer". It has flowed over into other areas as most of these discussions do.

As far as all the physics type stuff goes, I was just trying to point out that there is more braking power involved in having a six brakes as opposed to four, (same trailer and load). Not saying better or safer.
Under these same conditions, I could make a 4-brake system work more efficiently than a 6-brake one by varying things such as rotor, brake pad, and tire sizes, and it would still be illegal (the 4-brake one).

B:)B

handfulz28
11-23-2010, 11:10 AM
and it would still be illegal (the 4-brake one).

Yep, legality point acknowledged.

I'm waiting to see a trailer with big 6-pot Brembos and 13-inch rotors behind 18" wheels/tires. :kingme:

roadtrip se
11-23-2010, 12:09 PM
IMHO:

1) Aluminum is better than steel, even in fresh water, and I have towed a bunch of both.

2) Welded aluminum is my preference over erector set, aluminum trailers.
Rattle less, less stuff to shake lose, and normally fit better.

3) Two, top notch aluminum welded trailer makers are MYCO and Manning.
The Manning is made in Michigan and is one awesome, well-built, stout, and reasonably-priced trailer for what you get. MYCO is good, but expensive.

4) Three axle trailers are a waste of time for anything under 10000#. Less turning flexibility, more maintenance, more tires to blow, and not worth the extra hassle at all.

5) Electric over hydraulic brakes rock in terms of control over surge. No fricking comparison, night and day.

6) Living at the lake, it still amazes me how many six-figure boats ride on $2000 trailers. Spend a little up front and worry less, later.

gcarter
11-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Erector sets are VERY easy to repair!


Just sayin'.......

gcarter
11-23-2010, 02:20 PM
Yep, legality point acknowledged.

I'm waiting to see a trailer with big 6-pot Brembos and 13-inch rotors behind 18" wheels/tires. :kingme:

........and a price of 3 X the trailer! :nilly:

Cuda
11-23-2010, 08:10 PM
That is a whole other discussion.:bonk:


Who knows whether they know or not, but they should care to the same point they should care about any unsafe vehicle on the road.


Safer is kind of subjective. Legal is another issue. In your example, I would be legal and the other would not. Agree?

B

PS. Let me know the next time you are driving around Orlando, do lunch.
Are we debating legality or safety?
I'm so confused. :)

mrfixxall
11-23-2010, 08:59 PM
I guess im phucked either way,i have 3 axles and no brakes on any of them..

o, and a 10 k boat:eek:


Fow now..

gero1
11-23-2010, 09:25 PM
i didn't mean to get yall fired up, was just wondering why the same boat comes on a 2 axle trailer and some come on a 3. as for brakes i have them on all 4 wheels on the 22. a lil some thing to think about....over the road big trailers use a spread axle rangeing from a 2 foot spread to a 6 to carry(disperse) more weight...the bigger the spread the more they can carry on the trailer

gero1
11-23-2010, 09:26 PM
sorry i forgot to hit spell check

Goldeneyee
11-23-2010, 10:31 PM
Perhaps, most of us, after this long brake discussion, have forgotten what the original question was. Two or three axles if my memory serves me correctly. I have done a fair amount of towing both local and cross country towing offshore boats and without question, in my mind, 3 axles are much safer than two not only in stopping power but in the event that you blow a tire on a tandem axle setup the remaining tire on that side would be immediately be overloaded and most probably fail. Should this occur at highway speeds it would call for an immediate change of your underware (that is if you live through the experience) as now you would be grossly overloaded for the one tire and wouldn't get sufficient braking on that side not forgetting to mention uneven one sided braking . I am basing my assumption that the intended boat, without taking into consideration the trailer weight, would be in the 7,000-10,000 lb range. Many of us overspend on our boats and neglect to intelligently address our trailer needs. P.S. By the way, I speak from experience having suffered a blowout coming down Jellico Mountain towing a 38 Scarab at 70 miles per hour...... Thank God I had a tri-axle trailer....

Cuda
11-24-2010, 07:52 AM
I had a rear tire come off a travel trailer I was pulling across the Sunshine Skyway. I never even knew I lost it until a guy pulled up beside me and told me it came off and was leaning on the side of the bridge. I wasn't about to go to Bradenton to retrieve the tire. I put on my spare and went on my merry way. I was pulling it with an F-150. The trailer had electric brakes. Sometimes I'd stop the truck using only the brakes on the trailer.

Cuda
11-24-2010, 07:55 AM
P.S. By the way, I speak from experience having suffered a blowout coming down Jellico Mountain towing a 38 Scarab at 70 miles per hour...... Thank God I had a tri-axle trailer....
If you had torsion axles, you wouldn't even have to chain the axle up.

Goldeneyee
11-24-2010, 08:02 AM
As a matter of fact I had one hell of a time getting the axle off the pavement. Fortunately a trucker going the opposite direction saw what happened, exited,turned around and, gave be a hand. Traversing Jellico mountain is a white knuckle experience without the excitement I had....

Cuda
11-24-2010, 08:17 AM
I once blew a tire again pulling it over the Skyway. I was heading to Ft Lauderdale. I pulled over when I could, got out the jack and jacked that axle up. Luckily I had some chain in my truck, so I chained the axle to the frame and pulled it with one axle until I got off the bridge then put on the spare. I used to carry a 20 ton bottle jack to lift the triple axle if necesarry,

handfulz28
11-24-2010, 08:35 AM
Perhaps, most of us, after this long brake discussion, have forgotten what the original question was. Two or three axles if my memory serves me correctly.

towing a 38 Scarab at 70 miles per hour...

IMHO, a lot comes down to "intended use." Plan on hauling long distances regularly? Overkill becomes just a comfortable margin. Never leave your local fishing pond? Why go nuts on extra cost and maintenance? I would have no problem putting a 3500lb boat on a single axle trailer rated for 5-6k lbs if I were only to use it locally. Heck I'd put it on a 3500lb axle and use the higher-rated tires, if I really had to.

I'd rather have two heavy duty axles/tires/brakes instead of three average duty axles. I've pulled a 10k tandem and a 10k triple and I really didn't notice a difference in how they pulled. I went with the triple for the boat because the trailer builder said the tandem would sit higher. Knowing one of the ramps I use, I didn't want the boat any higher.

As for towing speeds, I don't think many people realize that most vehicles & trailer tires are "technically" limited to 55mph while towing. From the tire perspective, speeds over that range compromise the ability to dissipate heat. We know where that goes....

Cuda
11-24-2010, 10:09 AM
I pulled the triple axle under my Formula regularly on the Interstates all over at speeds in excess of 70 mph. If you don't run 80 on I-95, you will get run over. The police don't even look your way at 80 on I-95, even if they have a speed trap set up. It would be like handing out ticket at the Indy 500. :)

Florida is a much bigger state than one might think. From St Pete to Key West was exactly 7 hours hauling azz. I made that trip more than once, sometimes pulling a boat, and sometimes just to do the Duval Crawl.

roadtrip se
11-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Erector sets are VERY easy to repair!

Just sayin'.......

Same spinning parts, no difference in the repair arena. G, if you are talking about something more than that, then there are probably bigger fish in the frying pan.

Gero, oil types, spark plugs, and the usual suspects get the same predictable response here and have for the last decade.

Handful, when I speced out the Manning for my 280 Formula, the difference in height between a tandem and triple was one inch, but that could be different for each manufacturer. Had to do with running a smaller rim and tire on the triple. The Formula at 10-11K sat on a tandem with twin 6000 torsion axles and electric over hydraulic brakes, and was just fine wherever I took it.

Cuda
11-24-2010, 05:56 PM
I never once had a bolt come loose on my "erector set" triple axle. It had all stainless self locking nuts and bolts on it, along with a flush kit. I didn't go with the Kodiak disc brakes either. The drum brakes had a two year warranty. I could take a hammer to the brakes every two years and get a new set from the manufactorer. The trailer manufactorer told me that, but I never had to. The flush kit did it's job for a whole lot less money than Kodiaks. I originally asked about Kodiak brakes.

gcarter
11-24-2010, 07:11 PM
[quote=roadtrip se;583830]Same spinning parts, no difference in the repair arena. G, if you are talking about something more than that, then there are probably bigger fish in the frying pan.quote]

Someone's unfortunate experience that I wouldn't want to see happen to anyone has no affect my statement.
My only point is, it's fairly easy under otherwise less than ideal conditions, to buy some scrap material and some fastening hardware to effect repairs.
There's nothing more, and no reason to think there is.

Cuda
11-24-2010, 09:47 PM
A Formula 280 only weighs 6200 pounds and full of fuel, it only weighs 7020, but it is 9 feet two inches wide. In some states that's too wide to pull no matter what trailer is under it. Two 6000 pound axles are definetly over kill, unless smuggling gold.

roadtrip se
11-25-2010, 09:20 AM
A Formula 280 only weighs 6200 pounds and full of fuel, it only weighs 7020, but it is 9 feet two inches wide. In some states that's too wide to pull no matter what trailer is under it. Two 6000 pound axles are definetly over kill, unless smuggling gold.

My point exactly, "smuggling gold", which is how I view all of my toys, was accomplished on two axles, not three. Same reason I pull my 22 Classic on a 6000# trailer.

As for the rest of your numbers, sorry, but they are off. Probably due to that extra small block and Bravo Three my boat had.

Here they are: 2008 Formula 280 is 8200#, Fuel is 120G or 750#, Water is 20G or 167#, Holding is 26G or 217#, for a grand total of 9334#. These numbers are all from my owner's info on the boat. But this does not include all of the rest gear on the boat or the actual weight of the trailer, so I think 10-11,000 pounds is about right, and since I had a 12K, two axle, trailer I was in pretty good shape, wide load or not.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

gero1
11-25-2010, 10:52 AM
thank you goldeneyee

Cuda
11-25-2010, 11:26 AM
My point exactly, "smuggling gold", which is how I view all of my toys, was accomplished on two axles, not three. Same reason I pull my 22 Classic on a 6000# trailer.
As for the rest of your numbers, sorry, but they are off. Probably due to that extra small block and Bravo Three my boat had.
Here they are: 2008 Formula 280 is 8200#, Fuel is 120G or 750#, Water is 20G or 167#, Holding is 26G or 217#, for a grand total of 9334#. These numbers are all from my owner's info on the boat. But this does not include all of the rest gear on the boat or the actual weight of the trailer, so I think 10-11,000 pounds is about right, and since I had a 12K, two axle, trailer I was in pretty good shape, wide load or not.
Have a nice Thanksgiving.

The weights came directly from the Formula site.
I still don't understand the logic of two axles over three.

gero1
11-25-2010, 11:14 PM
don't get in a pissing contest with rtse, he's a pretty big deal in his own mind. get over your self todd and come back down to earth

Cuda
11-26-2010, 08:05 AM
don't get in a pissing contest with rtse, he's a pretty big deal in his own mind. get over your self todd and come back down to earth
Well said.

roadtrip se
11-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Cuda and Gero, please feel free to point out one arrogant statment in any of my posts on this thread, and I will gladly retract it.

I started my first post on this thread with "IMHO" which translates to "In My Humble Opinion". The thread was about tandem versus triple axle trailers. I offered my opinion and suggested a look-see at a welded, tandem aluminum, as an alternative.

Gero, you are the one throwing around names and trying to create a crap storm, not me, so feel free to knock it off whenever you would like.

Cuda, you seem to think you know more about the Formula 280 that I owned and ordered a custom trailer for than I do. You don't.

Simple enough. Now go have your crap storm on your own, because I don't see any reason to play.

BUIZILLA
11-26-2010, 06:30 PM
thank goodness mine and fuzzy's F350 4x4 SRW's weighed less than 7,500# on certified scales, my tandem Cary rig weighed 11,960, and my triple axle Scarab rig weighed 10,050, my tandem race car trailer weighed 12,120, and the coach loaded with car trailer weighed 47,244 I only towed the race car trailer about 150,000 miles in 6 years w/ 5 different trucks so i'm just a novice around you guys.. :cool: learn something every day..

Cuda
11-26-2010, 07:27 PM
thank goodness mine and fuzzy's F350 4x4 SRW's weighed less than 7,500# on certified scales, my tandem Cary rig weighed 11,960, and my triple axle Scarab rig weighed 10,050, my tandem race car trailer weighed 12,120, and the coach loaded with car trailer weighed 47,244 I only towed the race car trailer about 150,000 miles in 6 years w/ 5 different trucks so i'm just a novice around you guys.. :cool: learn something every day..

I only know what my registration said, 9900 pounds, and they charge for a license plate according to what's on the registration, believe me, I didn't want to give Tallahassee more than what was required. I don't make a habit of making contributions to the State of Florida. What does your registration say? I'm telling you mine was 9900 pounds.

Cuda
11-26-2010, 07:30 PM
Cuda and Gero, please feel free to point out one arrogant statment in any of my posts on this thread, and I will gladly retract it.
I started my first post on this thread with "IMHO" which translates to "In My Humble Opinion". The thread was about tandem versus triple axle trailers. I offered my opinion and suggested a look-see at a welded, tandem aluminum, as an alternative.
Gero, you are the one throwing around names and trying to create a crap storm, not me, so feel free to knock it off whenever you would like.
Cuda, you seem to think you know more about the Formula 280 that I owned and ordered a custom trailer for than I do. You don't.
Simple enough. Now go have your crap storm on your own, because I don't see any reason to play.

You obviously don't know the weight of your own boat. Check Formulaboats.com and get back to me. I owned three different Formulas, so I know a bit about them. My 302 was the Kaama brochure boat.

BUIZILLA
11-26-2010, 08:09 PM
I only know what my registration said, 9900 pounds, and they charge for a license plate according to what's on the registration, believe me, I didn't want to give Tallahassee more than what was required. I don't make a habit of making contributions to the State of Florida. What does your registration say? I'm telling you mine was 9900 pounds. Joe, GVWR is completely different than unloaded weight, your taxed on GROSS WEIGHT RATING.... i'll bet you a dollar for every pound over 7500 i'm wrong, and you bet me $1 for every pound under 9900, go rent a new F350 SRW diesel and bring 2400 bucks with you to a CAT scale. Mine also said 9900 GVWR, i'm sure fuzzy's does too, R stands for gross weight rating, not UNLOADED weight. My brothers 2008 F350 4x4 SRW weighs 7485... I work on these for a living virtually every day, and I have my own 9,000# GVW inhouse hoist, I goddam sure know what they weigh empty, so does Ford...

I'm done.

roadtrip se
11-26-2010, 09:50 PM
You obviously don't know the weight of your own boat. Check Formulaboats.com and get back to me. I owned three different Formulas, so I know a bit about them. My 302 was the Kaama brochure boat.

First of all, the 280 is out of production and not listed on the Formula site.

Secondly, if you look at my original post on the 280, and read it carefully, you will notice that I said I had an extra small block and Bravo 3. That makes it a twin. The 6300# that you are quoting is for a SINGLE small block 280, which wasn't even offered in 2008.

The 2008 brochure, my manual, the specification slick, and Manning all stated that the boat weighs 8200#.

A 302 is not a 280, and I own a 370SS now, so at least I can admit owning multiple Formulas does not make one an expert on the whole line, as I have no clue what the 302 weighs and I can admit it. For what it is worth, the 370SS is 15,100#'s dry, 18,500 #'s wet, so it would really need a triple axle trailer under it, unlike anything I have seen discussed here so far.

Do I need to start taking pictures of the literature? As I have offered to retract any references to arrogance in my posts, can you man up enough to admit I knew my own boat? I would be honored.

Waiting....:popcorn: Camera is next. And please, don't make this a crap storm. No need for it.

Cuda
11-26-2010, 10:35 PM
First of all, the 280 is out of production and not listed on the Formula site.
Secondly, if you look at my original post on the 280, and read it carefully, you will notice that I said I had an extra small block and Bravo 3. That makes it a twin. The 6300# that you are quoting is for a SINGLE small block 280, which wasn't even offered in 2008.
The 2008 brochure, my manual, the specification slick, and Manning all stated that the boat weighs 8200#.
A 302 is not a 280, and I own a 370SS now, so at least I can admit owning multiple Formulas does not make one an expert on the whole line, as I have no clue what the 302 weighs and I can admit it. For what it is worth, the 370SS is 15,100#'s dry, 18,500 #'s wet, so it would really need a triple axle trailer under it, unlike anything I have seen discussed here so far.
Do I need to start taking pictures of the literature? As I have offered to retract any references to arrogance in my posts, can you man up enough to admit I knew my own boat? I would be honored.
Waiting....:popcorn: Camera is next. And please, don't make this a crap storm. No need for it.
Typical. You take your shots and then ask for it not to be a crapstorm.
Owning a bunch of Formulas does in fact make me an expert on them. I can't help you're slow on the uptake.

roadtrip se
11-26-2010, 10:47 PM
Owning a bunch of Formulas does in fact make me an expert on them.

but not on the 280SS. You had your chance to retract your statments calling me wrong multiple times, even though I don't know how you could order a custom trailer and not know the weight of the boat that was going to be on it. I guess you could, but that isn't how I do things.

Here is the Formula brochure for 2008. The first shot shows the cover, the second shows the splash page for the 280SS and 280 Bowrider, the third shot confirms what I have been saying all along that the SS is 8200#. BTW, the BR is 7300# with a single BB, but the SS could not be ordered that way in 2008.

Are we done now?

MOP
11-27-2010, 08:11 AM
This is the first time I peered into this post, I see Joe is up to his normal rare form! Anyway my thoughts on trailers, my 22 came on a single axle galvanized trailer. It towed like I had three boats behind me, I sold it and with the help of Rust & Rot got my first aluminum trailer ever. The difference was unbelievable my sub thought I forgot the boat on the first trip it did not even breath hard on hills. I am a salt boater the trailer except for some of the iron fasteners starting to rust shows no issues, even the disks are Ok after five seasons of dunking I do hose the heck out of the whole rig and boat each trip. It came with torsion axles and one set of brakes, illegal in most states but so far I have not scared myself but have thought a about adding another set anyway. I unlike RT am not a fan of welded trailers, everyone I have ever seen break did so at the welds. A bolted unit will let you know if any part is coming loose, then it is just a mater of tightening in up or possibly replacing a fastener or two. Granted welded looks a lot more bling but I will never trust them as they need to be a bit over built to be compared to a bolt up. Has one person on this board had an I beam bolt up fail????????????? How many welded ones have let members down??????????

Greg Guimond
11-27-2010, 08:47 AM
Good info MOP, I'm sold on aluminum. ..........if anyone knows of a quality fabricator of aluminum trailers and willing to expand my radius to 300 miles around Syracuse.

roadtrip se
11-27-2010, 11:10 AM
isn't that far to come for a nice trailer for the Donzi.

Talk to these guys:

http://www.manningmarine.com/

Below is the 280 on the thing. It was over-built, finished well, and towed with ease behind my Excursion. And the price was fair. Nicest trailer I have owned, and my Donzi and several of my previous boats are on or were sitting on Mycos.

You decide to do it, we'll have to hook up for a brew and talk some bench racing in the process. Might be able to pull a few other MADCOWs out for a beverage, too.

Greg Guimond
11-27-2010, 11:37 AM
Thanks, looks like they build a nice one. Ideally, I'd like a company that is south of Syracuse. I have to do a little poking around over the winter months as there are not many aluminum fabricators as you have mentioned, never mind with significant saltwater boat trailer building experience.

DonziJon
11-27-2010, 02:10 PM
I've seen some comments about Aluminum trailers that like to Float at the ramp. How prevalent is this tendency? Do multi axle trailers float better than say a single axle. If the trailer is wagging around behind the truck while trying to position/load the boat on it, seems like it would be a real inconvenience to me. :bonk: Just wondering. NB

Cuda
11-28-2010, 12:15 AM
I've seen some comments about Aluminum trailers that like to Float at the ramp. How prevalent is this tendency? Do multi axle trailers float better than say a single axle. If the trailer is wagging around behind the truck while trying to position/load the boat on it, seems like it would be a real inconvenience to me. :bonk: Just wondering. NB
The more tires, the more likely it is to float. Some people drill holes through the frame, then bolt on weights that are used on a weight bench. I like the fact that it floats so if you back it off the end of the ramp, it will float up. I had a steel trailer I backed off a ramp. It was in February and me and my brother had to wade out and lift the trailer.

gcarter
11-28-2010, 06:15 AM
It's my observation that they don't float w/steel wheels, or the appropriate number of brakes.
It's really a close call. They're really not all that bouyant.
But a lot more so than a steel trailer.
I remember when Catch got his aluminum trailer, it didn't float w/the galvanized wheels it came with. Than Gina bought him some aluminum wheels and it floated.......
Then Jim had barkes added and it sank again.
My Minx trailer never floated w/steel wheels and brakes.

BUIZILLA
11-28-2010, 07:25 AM
mine would float in salt water, and not in fresh.. :bonk:

Greg Guimond
11-28-2010, 08:09 AM
Interesting, is an aluminum trailer more likely to float in Florida waters due to the salinity being higher?

Cuda
11-28-2010, 09:18 AM
They are just barely boyant. I never saw a trailer with steel wheels, most of them are galvanized. Steel wheels will rust out. If I had any problem with it floating, and had to battle any current, I'd just pull the trailer up where the tires just barely touched the ramp.

roadtrip se
11-28-2010, 09:43 AM
The Manning aluminum, built for my Formula, did not. Probably because it was such a large trailer.

The Myco aluminum, built for my Donzi, can float on occassion. I have attached weight on the back beams and it had zero effect in stopping it. Seems to happen more where there is a current. Not really a big deal. Jill takes the boat retrieval duties at the ramp and she hasn't had much of an issue with it. Just wait for it to bubble and sink, then load up and go.

yeller
11-28-2010, 05:28 PM
The Manning aluminum, built for my Formula, did not. Probably because it was such a large trailer.
The Myco aluminum, built for my Donzi, can float on occassion. I have attached weight on the back beams and it had zero effect in stopping it. Seems to happen more where there is a current. Not really a big deal. Jill takes the boat retrieval duties at the ramp and she hasn't had much of an issue with it. Just wait for it to bubble and sink, then load up and go.That is true. Mine use to be easily pushed downstream when I would launch in the river. Don't have much of a problem in lake or ocean ramps.

Cuda
11-28-2010, 08:14 PM
That is true. Mine use to be easily pushed downstream when I would launch in the river. Don't have much of a problem in lake or ocean ramps.
I only had problems in the St John's River if the water was high and the river was flowing. Never had a problem in the bay.

Team Jefe
12-14-2010, 07:13 PM
Y'all are some long winded sumbtches to get to the point that in general a tandem is better than a triple for MOST applications...especially any one I can think of Robert needing. Let's review Trips's comments


IMHO:

1) Aluminum is better than steel, even in fresh water, and I have towed a bunch of both.
-- AGREED

2) Welded aluminum is my preference over erector set, aluminum trailers.
Rattle less, less stuff to shake lose, and normally fit better.
-- DO NOT AGREE and I'm a Welding Engineer. G is right, bolted trailers are eaiser to repair on the fly (like in Arkansas at 0200 on Sunday), plus YOU can check the bolting and maintain it....welded requires a TIG rig (GTAW to those in the Biz)

3) Two, top notch aluminum welded trailer makers are MYCO and Manning.
The Manning is made in Michigan and is one awesome, well-built, stout, and reasonably-priced trailer for what you get. MYCO is good, but expensive.
-- No Idea, I have a Loadmaster (FLA Brand) and love it.

4) Three axle trailers are a waste of time for anything under 10000#. Less turning flexibility, more maintenance, more tires to blow, and not worth the extra hassle at all.
-- AGREED, then again, I did some serious retrofitting to my trailer to make it JEFE worthy and do what I demand of it. 6K axles, 16" Load Range E truck tires, 265-70's (yeah...I've heard it all...they work). Also, I have blown out the 15" BS trailer tires I had before, at highway speed without any real problems....just my expereince talking there.

5) Electric over hydraulic brakes rock in terms of control over surge. No fricking comparison, night and day.
-- AGREE, but I still run Surge...of course I use a Dodge, so trailer brakes are not as big a deal as if you were using F'od or Chebbby, or......:lookaroun:

6) Living at the lake, it still amazes me how many six-figure boats ride on $2000 trailers. Spend a little up front and worry less, later.
-- TRUE THAT....I see it all the time with fishboats. My Partner is one of them...SAD!!!

So, Gero. My opinion, which is the only thing I ever express, go tandem

Team Jefe
12-16-2010, 12:55 PM
Forgot to mention the floating issue. After the Retrofit, my trailer did float pretty good...so I had one of my engineers calculate the added bouyancy from the larger tires and it was over 300#...so I added 400# of weight into the trailer via 2" conduit runs filled with Hematite....makes the trailer look like it has Quad Exhausts now:kingme:

gero1
12-16-2010, 09:59 PM
thank you all, u 2 fish hawk!