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gcarter
11-13-2010, 08:00 PM
I saw this on another forum. He's getting nearly 600 HP w/Dart iron heads.
That's cool all right!
But what got my attention was that he's running a crank driven raw water pump. It looks like a Crusader pump to me, but I may be mistaken.
So tell me, which would you rather change the impellor on, one of these, or a Merc pump? :wink:

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67275&d=1289519332

gcarter
11-14-2010, 10:13 AM
And of course, the other interesting thing is the water crossover manifold/T-stat housing is on the front of the heads, and not on top.
Fascinating!

LKSD
11-14-2010, 11:32 AM
IMO The merc pumps on the current late model stuff are a pita and trash compared to the older ones they used to use..

MOP
11-14-2010, 05:01 PM
I think he likes those pumps!

mrfixxall
11-14-2010, 08:28 PM
I saw this on another forum. He's getting nearly 600 HP w/Dart iron heads.
That's cool all right!
But what got my attention was that he's running a crank driven raw water pump. It looks like a Crusader pump to me, but I may be mistaken.
So tell me, which would you rather change the impellor on, one of these, or a Merc pump? :wink:

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67275&d=1289519332

G, that is not a stroked 454, you have to do what tyler did to make a 496 ho into a fresh water carbed engine..it also has a sheet aluminum intake that was custom made..the 496 aftermarket heads dont have revisions in the top of the cylinder heads for coolant co they come out the front of the headswith the water ports..

gcarter
11-14-2010, 09:41 PM
I learn something every day, I didn't know about the head configuraqtion.
He did comment on the welded manifold and that they would be offering a cast version.

yeller
11-15-2010, 12:05 AM
Close to 600hp sounds pretty nice, but I'd hate to do that swap if I had to get rid of my EFI.

Dr. David Fleming
11-15-2010, 01:17 PM
Saw the intake before it went on the engine - asked Tyler if he thought he was Vic Edlebrock making his own without a flow bench!

Tyler has done some other interesting stuff like take the carb manifolds and add fuel injection rails then turning them to from TBI to MPI injection setups - and another of his pet projects is the MERC RACING 500EFI and 525EFI (Arizona Speed And Marine) fuel injection setup - abandoning the front end throttle and opening up the manifold top for a huge throttle intake - more power there too. FRankentyler I think - docs opinion of course!

The Hedgehog
11-15-2010, 06:54 PM
Saw the intake before it went on the engine - asked Tyler if he thought he was Vic Edlebrock making his own without a flow bench!

Tyler has done some other interesting stuff like take the carb manifolds and add fuel injection rails then turning them to from TBI to MPI injection setups - and another of his pet projects is the MERC RACING 500EFI and 525EFI (Arizona Speed And Marine) fuel injection setup - abandoning the front end throttle and opening up the manifold top for a huge throttle intake - more power there too. FRankentyler I think - docs opinion of course!

Eddie Young and others have been doing the carb manifold / EFI thing for years. If you build up a maxed out 500 EFI you will make around 620 or so hp. Take off the 500 EFI manifold and install the big manifold and holley injector system and you will get another 50-75hp on the next pull.

GBond
11-15-2010, 08:17 PM
George, Had a 540/NA built this summer for my 22c. Conservative 600hp on dyno with Dart 308 Iron Eagle heads. As for the cam driven pump... will ask around.

handfulz28
11-15-2010, 08:47 PM
Is it a Gen VII 496?

GBond
11-15-2010, 09:15 PM
Whooop's.... notta 496.

roadtrip se
11-16-2010, 09:50 AM
I know nothing about the Crockett 496, so this is a thread derail. Sorry George. My comments are about the 500-525 mods.

I shopped around for engine builders two years ago to re-build my 500. Tyler couldn't be bothered to return my calls, so I gave up on him. Eddie just wanted to junk all of the Merc stuff and go Holley. Nice enough guy, but that wasn't what I wanted.

Turned to Innovation. Again, slow to return my calls and three weeks to get me a quote. Turned to Ron Potter and he won the business for being responsive, having a great reputation including time spent at Innovation and starting up and running Nortech's program.

There just aren't many guys out there that will mess with the Mercury fuel injection. I have not heard very many positive experiences with the ship-it to ASM, program it, and try it again routine; so you have to tune the engine on the dyno with the ECM. Few can do that.

Hedge is right, actually maybe a little high, on the limits of the 500 intake. I would say it is more in the 575-600-ish range. Still working on mine and air flow is the biggest issue. Going the Merc EFI route beyond design limits is a bit of an art, so you had better trust your engine builder or just go carb and be done with it.

gcarter
11-16-2010, 09:57 AM
So Todd, do you feel that commited to the Merc intake and FI systems?

roadtrip se
11-16-2010, 10:36 AM
So Todd, do you feel that commited to the Merc intake and FI systems?

Yes, but modding with this stuff isn't for everyone...

MOP
11-16-2010, 01:43 PM
This will be a long winters wait! I for one am chomping at the bit to hear how the "Mighty Oaks" boat runs when he is done. Tales of the "Wolf Pack"!!!!

Dr. David Fleming
11-17-2010, 12:11 AM
Stopped by and saw Tyler running his 496 setup today. It turns out the iron heads are Dart prototype with big intake valves - an effort to unlock the 496. He had his custom sheet metal intake off and was using the stock GM ram tube MPI and was pulling 575hp with a cam in the stock engine with the Dart heads. Was about to put the sheet metal intake back on to see if the heads make a difference and more power with it - they are trying to get through some kind of power wall and market something new for the 496. Posting in on offshore.

The sheet metal prototype is supposed to be custom cast by Dart or some other foundry. Also working on a blower setup with (Whipple?) to mount on the 500EFI to feed directly into the top of the (Arizona Speed And Marine) intake- an effort to take the stock 500 EFI and go directly to 650hp with no other modifications. Big power cheaper that's what its all about?

Like I said FRankentyler!

tylogans 22
11-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Dr. D,
Hey I was wondering when you were at Tyler's shop if you happen to see my yellow 22 with a black cover in his shop or out back? He really know's his stuff spending time with him is quite the experience.

thanks,
Gregg

Donziweasel
11-17-2010, 05:23 PM
There just aren't many guys out there that will mess with the Mercury fuel injection.

Good point. Thats why the Holley stuff is popular for aftermarket mods. Easy to tune and work with. Hell, comes with a variety of tuning equipment from handheld programers to computer harnesses. I know some people that have used it in street applications and loved it. You have to be almost an artist to mess with the Merc stuff. :)

Dr. David Fleming
11-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Greg,

Saw your yellow Donzi Classic 18ft? with the 502MAG MPI - gave it a good look over. Tyler says he converted it from MEFI I by taking off the vapor tank, the blower was impressive - what else did you do to it? If I remember right it had shorty lower and 32P Bravo I.

When we were watching Tyler dyno the 496 some guy name Greg with 27Baja and I were talking about your boat. The 32P is what was impressive. Tyler said you were from Oakland county which was where Greg was from, at first I thought it was his boat.

Tyler has a Eliminator cat which some guy flipped at speed. Boat came out ok except when the wrecker was pulling it out of the lake they put a huge chain around it and cracked the hull - man just tore the fiberglass in half. Guess Mark Wagnalls will put it back together for him - engine got wasted also.

OFFSHORE GINGER
11-17-2010, 10:34 PM
Sorry Doc if its not Sterling , its not $hit .

The Hedgehog
11-17-2010, 11:15 PM
"18ft? with the 502MAG MPI - gave it a good look over. Tyler says he converted it from MEFI I by taking off the vapor tank, the blower was impressive - what else did you do to it? If I remember right it had shorty lower and 32P Bravo I."

18ft with a 502 MPI and converting it from a MEFI 1 by removing the VST? Not sure I really understand:nilly:

gero1
11-17-2010, 11:29 PM
VAPOR TANK DOG!!!!!! get it?

tylogans 22
11-18-2010, 09:02 AM
Greg,

Saw your yellow Donzi Classic 18ft? with the 502MAG MPI - gave it a good look over. Tyler says he converted it from MEFI I by taking off the vapor tank, the blower was impressive - what else did you do to it? If I remember right it had shorty lower and 32P Bravo I.

When we were watching Tyler dyno the 496 some guy name Greg with 27Baja and I were talking about your boat. The 32P is what was impressive. Tyler said you were from Oakland county which was where Greg was from, at first I thought it was his boat.

Tyler has a Eliminator cat which some guy flipped at speed. Boat came out ok except when the wrecker was pulling it out of the lake they put a huge chain around it and cracked the hull - man just tore the fiberglass in half. Guess Mark Wagnalls will put it back together for him - engine got wasted also.

It's a 22 classic with a 502 and in the spring the 32P will be coming off and a smaller prop will be going on.

Carl C
11-18-2010, 03:47 PM
George, any chance you could post a link to the original thread?

Dr. David Fleming
11-18-2010, 03:48 PM
Hegehog -

Just to clarify what I was talking about the 502MAG MPI - MEFI 1 had a primitive computor and a large float bowl cast out of aluminum on the top of the engine - this was called the VST or Vapor Seperator Tank. The early version of this engine did not have a flame arrestor on the intake but instead had a paper/gauze air filter like a car. What tyler did was upgrade the MPI fuel pump system to the MEFI 2/MEFI 3 so he could trash the VST or as I called it "Vapor tank." Just an upgrade that would keep most of us confused. Something like tylers cousin worked at GM or Mercruiser and helped him with all the programing codes to crack all the computors up to MEFI 4. Motorola 555 is apparently beyond anyone but Merc.

There are "marine mechanics" and then there are "doctors of engines" like Franketyler. If you ever go to Tylers shop its an absolute hoot! He is not like a lot of people who will get all paranoid and throw you out - tyler welcomes you into his gasoline alley - teaches you all kinds of stuff and gives you brew - its more like a clubhouse. Dyno time everyone stands around while they make the engines roar. Guys bringing their boats from all over the country staying in local motels hanging with tyler all day! Got a small town atmosphere with party store nextdoor which feeds everyone - Methodist church on the other side of his shop for those who want to pray. Tylers grandfather was a captain on a great lakes freightor and sometimes his dad hangs around with him and his brother.

Harley Davidson guys hanging around also, wrenching on the V twins - Tyler also builds harleys - Harley guys are always pulling holeshots down main street - no town police either - tyler was thinking of adding a pistol range in his shop just to pass the time when not playing pool. We are talking old school rural Michigan here cause its way off the beaten track in Ruby MI. First time I was in town I was on my harley about 5 years before I ever bought my first offshore - stopped at the party store and saw this marina - just busted out laughing - who the hell would put a land locked marina in the middle of no where! Never thought I would be back.

gcarter
11-18-2010, 04:10 PM
http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18942

Carl C
11-18-2010, 05:26 PM
http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18942

Thanks. I don't see where they addressed the weak internals, pistons especially. I hope it doesn't turn into another "I blew up my 496" thread.

The Hedgehog
11-18-2010, 06:23 PM
"Just to clarify what I was talking about the 502MAG MPI - MEFI 1 had a primitive computor and a large float bowl cast out of aluminum on the top of the engine - this was called the VST or Vapor Seperator Tank. The early version of this engine did not have a flame arrestor on the intake but instead had a paper/gauze air filter like a car. What tyler did was upgrade the MPI fuel pump system to the MEFI 2/MEFI 3 so he could trash the VST or as I called it "Vapor tank." Just an upgrade that would keep most of us confused. Something like tylers cousin worked at GM or Mercruiser and helped him with all the programing codes to crack all the computors up to MEFI 4. Motorola 555 is apparently beyond anyone but Merc."

My 540 started as a 502 MPI with a MEFI 1 and with the VST. My VST was at the bottom of the engine. I trashed it when I did the blower. It was a weird thing. I kept the MEFI 1 and had Mark Boos reprogram that one. It worked great, but the MEFI 3 is better. The MEFI 3 and up have boost tables. I am now with a MEFI 4. I was around during the programming process. It kind of reminded me of some modules I ran in the old days when I did interest rate risk simulation for financial institutions. I would not want to mess with it without experience. Screw up the pulse width and timing and you will melt an engine.

Donziweasel
11-18-2010, 08:03 PM
Thanks. I don't see where they addressed the weak internals, pistons especially. I hope it doesn't turn into another "I blew up my 496" thread.

That was the first thing that crossed my mind also. 496 doesn't have forged internals. It is fine in stock form, but modify it and it can go BOOM.

yeller
11-18-2010, 08:26 PM
The 496 is a pretty strong motor. I wouldn't be too concerned in N/A form at the hp he's at. Most "boom" motors are blower motors. Much easier to run too lean with a blower.

roadtrip se
11-19-2010, 11:10 AM
Hegehog -

There are "marine mechanics" and then there are "doctors of engines" like Franketyler. If you ever go to Tylers shop its an absolute hoot! He is not like a lot of people who will get all paranoid and throw you out - tyler welcomes you into his gasoline alley - teaches you all kinds of stuff and gives you brew - its more like a clubhouse. Dyno time everyone stands around while they make the engines roar. Guys bringing their boats from all over the country staying in local motels hanging with tyler all day! Got a small town atmosphere with party store nextdoor which feeds everyone - Methodist church on the other side of his shop for those who want to pray. Tylers grandfather was a captain on a great lakes freightor and sometimes his dad hangs around with him and his brother.

Harley Davidson guys hanging around also, wrenching on the V twins - Tyler also builds harleys - Harley guys are always pulling holeshots down main street - no town police either - tyler was thinking of adding a pistol range in his shop just to pass the time when not playing pool. We are talking old school rural Michigan here cause its way off the beaten track in Ruby MI. First time I was in town I was on my harley about 5 years before I ever bought my first offshore - stopped at the party store and saw this marina - just busted out laughing - who the hell would put a land locked marina in the middle of no where! Never thought I would be back.

Well this goes a long way towards explaining why the guy couldn't find time to call me back after I pinged him half a dozen times over a two week period. Too bad, since I do a chunk of my boating in and live in Michigan, so he would have been local to me. Glad to hear you are in the "club", as I have heard he does nice work.

As for Sterling, Mike's shop is maybe two miles from my door step. Nicest guy alive, and quite the inventory of performance goodies on the shelves. Same story as Young, not interested at all in messing with the blue Merc stuff.

Sweet Cheekz
11-19-2010, 02:31 PM
As for Sterling, Mike's shop is maybe two miles from my door step. Nicest guy alive, and quite the inventory of performance goodies on the shelves. Same story as Young, not interested at all in messing with the blue Merc stuff.

Plus his motors are good for about 50 hours and he doesnt like building motors under 1000hp

Parnell

The Hedgehog
11-19-2010, 08:44 PM
Plus his motors are good for about 50 hours and he doesnt like building motors under 1000hp

Parnell

I have heard that about Sterling.

Sweet Cheekz
11-19-2010, 09:10 PM
Just my own experience. I would have loved to get 50 hours but it just wasnt to be over and over

Parnell