PDA

View Full Version : 16 OB Baby Owners - How Many Are Left?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Greg Guimond
11-08-2010, 09:05 PM
Matty would know how many of the 16 OB Baby hulls were built but fair to say less than 200 between 1965 and 1978 plus the 6 built in the 90's. If you have one, know of one, or have a picture of one, post it up. The more details the better. I am wondering if there are 100 or so left worldwide?

Here is a start...............an ad from 1972

mphatc
11-08-2010, 09:14 PM
to the best of my knowledge there are two in NH, one is on Craigslist right now, a boat from Winni, I've never seen it . .and a another in the same area. First one is dark blue, second one is white IRC correctly.

High Life in MA owns another . . white with a Johnson I think . .

I chose eggbeaters for eggs only . . .and the transom of my Boston Whaler

Mario L.

68 Magnum 27
69 Corsican

HIGH LIFE
11-09-2010, 12:05 AM
Mario, You got it half right. I have #151 with a 200 Mariner on the transom... the 300X would probabily sink the boat. HIGH LIFE

fasttrucker
11-09-2010, 03:34 PM
I sold mine and it went to jensen beach fl.

Carbo
11-09-2010, 06:52 PM
Other than pictures the only one I have ever seen is mine. 1972 C16B67 currently under construction.:yes:

mermademarine
11-09-2010, 06:56 PM
16B-62 in North Palm Beach, FL, currently being restored

HIGH LIFE
11-09-2010, 09:41 PM
Greg, my Baby is a 1976, purchased two years ago. Boat was original came from Michigan always in fresh water, until I baptised it in salt here in Ma. #151. HIGH LIFE

Sweet Cheekz
11-09-2010, 10:06 PM
here..

How about a progress thread when you get around to it after that big first week

Parnell

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 10:43 PM
Anyone happen to know who owns this 1971 16 OB or what state it is in? I always wondered how many 16 OB's were left across the USA. If I actually knew how, it would be cool to have an interactive USA map with locations of the known surviving 16 OB Baby hulls.

mphatc
11-12-2010, 08:06 PM
Good pics on page one of this thread on OSO

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/imax-images/238442-great-south-bay-li-ny.html


Mario L.

Carbo
11-28-2010, 06:04 PM
I always wondered how many 16 OB's were left across the USA. If I actually knew how, it would be cool to have an interactive USA map with locations of the known surviving 16 OB Baby hulls.



So when you need parts you'll know where to look?:wink:

Actually it would be cool. Wouldn't be a crowded map though....

maddad
11-29-2010, 10:12 PM
Only 50 left? Wow, I always thought they were a dime a dozen. I know of 10 or so here on Long Island including the one I'm doing. The one in the for sale section is the first one I've seen in red though. Most of the 16's I've seen are lt. blue/wht, followed by blk/wht and one yellow/wht.

Greg Guimond
11-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Wow, if there are 10 just on LI then perhaps I am very low on my count. I think I remember Matty saying they built 170 or so new.

HIGH LIFE
11-29-2010, 11:16 PM
The BABY I have is all white with red top stripe & red waterline... # 151 a '76. "HIGH LIFE"

Carbo
11-30-2010, 01:10 PM
We need a list of years and hull numbers:
so far...........


'72 #62 Mermademarine
'72 #63 Surface Tension Greg
'72 #67 Carbo


'73 #74 (72?)DMR16741272B


'74 #106 The Mule Greg

'75 #129 DMR161290475b Bompapen
'75 #130 DMR161300475b

'76 #151 High Life


If anyone has more to add PM me or post it here and I will add it to the list.

HIGH LIFE
11-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Carbo, There are 3 in New England FOR SALE. 1. Black hull in N.H. 2. White w/ red accents in R.I. 3. White w/ blue accents in Malden,Ma. no motor. Found many more over the years that were or are still for sale. A few had H.I.N. in the ad. "HIGH LIFE"

RPD
11-30-2010, 07:57 PM
I asked the same question last year and the answer I got was about 700 including the 5 or so built in the 90's .... I've forgotten who had that info but I think it was MadPoodle ....

Anyway, mine is a 1976. I have had it 20yrs and it's still going fine.

RPD
11-30-2010, 08:05 PM
Of course, there could be some aftermarket conversions out there pretending to be factory OBs. In fact, I'd bet on it. And all of the factory OBs were white with, I think, only blue or red stripes.

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 08:11 PM
I bet 50 of those are still in Florida......... Here is one located in Florida currently. I scrubbed the ID for privacy. Add it to the list Carbo. It is one of only three with big power in NAmerica. Ok, enough laughing from you all. At least big HAMSTER power!

From:
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:15 PM
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 16 Baby - 225X
The number under my rub rail on the transom and the number on a decal behind the rear seat cushion that says Hull no. is the DMR 161300475 B.

Carbo
12-07-2010, 05:58 PM
Recap



so far...........


'72 #62 Mermademarine
'72 #63 Surface Tension Greg
'72 #67 Carbo


'73 #74 (72?)DMR16741272B

#102 C16b102 Michigan

'74 #106 The Mule Greg

'75 #129 DMR161290475b Bompapen
'75 #130 DMR161300475b

'76 #151 High Life

Snoflk1
10-24-2011, 11:33 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Mine was just two behind yours at birth. Restoring mine now.

mattyboy
10-25-2011, 09:29 AM
for the record 16 baby production numbers 169 from aug of 1970 to april of 1978
a production baby would have rh helm most came all white with blue stripes but other colors were produced.

there were one if not more prototypes before that production run the first documented on was in 1967.

plus the mid 90's newer one's



I know of a few locally plus on lake george I will check the club's records

here is one from lake george with yellow stripes very uncommon.

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/gallery/v/2011dustoff/sregatta/IMG_5752.JPG.html

Greg Guimond
10-25-2011, 08:17 PM
I wonder how many are still around from the original 169 built.............

mattyboy
10-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Greg,

not really sure how to document this as alot of the babies are not owned by active web surfers. there are two on my lake i see from time to time that trailer in and out. older couples I spoke to them about this site and the LGDCC but them seemed uninterested and didn't seem to think their boat was special. I would say that the number is much higher around 50% give or take .

I know of a few more that are not listed here. I think another reason for the high survival rate is the lack of a beating the OB motor has on the hull ,ease of repair and lower cost perception on the OB over the I/O.


the same basic amount of X18 were made but due to the stringer issues and the I/O I think there are fewer remaining of those than the OB.

Greg Guimond
10-25-2011, 09:14 PM
50% or so would be a pretty good survival rate Matty. I just did a quick nationwide search on CL and saw the one up in NH that has been for sale for ever, and two down in Florida. I kinda thought there would be a few more for sale at the end of the season. I'm sure there are bunches out there, not to mention the ones on the board here.

haines hunter v19r
11-01-2011, 01:35 AM
Not sure how many were made in Melbourne Australia but this is mine

VetteLT193
11-03-2011, 10:13 AM
On a 16 I think the survival rate is in a very high percentage. They are easy to tuck away in a garage, shed, etc. Vs. bigger boats that just don't fit and find their way into woods or meet some other demise.

bildo792
12-03-2011, 04:41 PM
I own a 1971 baby ob in jupiter florida. Picked it up last spring and am having it custom restored by gilbane boatworks locally. Hard to upload pics from my tablet but I have a few more of the first wave of work on my laptop.
69036

haines hunter v19r
12-03-2011, 08:30 PM
Hey bildo792, what are you doing to the classic resto and any more pictures

bildo792
12-04-2011, 11:15 AM
I will start a new thread now with pics and information so I don't fill this one up

XMETAL
12-07-2011, 02:15 PM
How do you know what # boat you have. Most likely Im buying the one in the classifieds. Heres the hull # if it helps.
DMR161000973B

mattyboy
12-07-2011, 02:18 PM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]XMETAL
How do you know what # boat you have. Most likely Im buying the one in the classifieds. Heres the hull # if it helps.
DMR161000973B
{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]


dmr donzi marine racing
16 model
100 100 hull built in that model
09 sept
73 1973

B outboard baby model


ob baby 16 hull number 100 built sept 1973

XMETAL
12-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Hey Matt thank you. Did Donzi start the count over with each new model year?

mattyboy
12-07-2011, 02:28 PM
no at that point is was a running total production number , the newer boats went to a yearly total the HINs also changed

approx 170 ob baby 16 were built between 70 and 78

XMETAL
12-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Thank you. Ill keep you guys updated. This one might be coming to Maine.

MikeB1
12-24-2011, 11:12 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]
Restoring 1971 now in Pompano Beach. Long way to go.
Mike B

MikeB1
12-24-2011, 11:13 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]
Restoring 1971 now in Pompano Beach. Long way to go.
Mike B

woobs
12-25-2011, 12:43 AM
That boat looks "freakin awesome" as my kids would say....
great job!

Conquistador_del_mar
12-25-2011, 01:09 PM
Wow, Jim!! That is over the top beautiful. It sounds like you had lots of hours in the restoration, but it shows. I didn't know there were dual prop outboards until now (I need to keep up a little better). Congratulations! Bill

Greg Guimond
12-25-2011, 04:09 PM
Very cool Jim. :cool!: I have 53 gallons in my tank. How long did you layout your tank? Nice to just fuel it and go.......forever. The HT guys make nice reliable, big power out of the Y2.6 for sure and it is still fairly light. It should be interesting to see what the dual prop does with some ponies behind her. I'm sure you have done this but be sure to go with solid mounts and go ARP bolt, double nyloc and loctice on the steering connect. I will wager you break into 70 once dialed in with no drama unlike my 2.5 280 lol. Very unique ride........1996 model year, correct? Post some running pics when you get around to it.....again really nice to see the job you did with her! Congrats

Morgan's Cloud
12-25-2011, 07:48 PM
Yet another 'WOW' job ... That's outstanding ! How long have you had that O/B duo prop unit hanging around ? I think I can vaguely remember them from some time back but can't recall the exact year.
You know I know first hand how twin props work wonders on these boats but I'm sorry you don't have a before and after comparison.
Otherwise I'd also be curious to know what you think of it's positive trim response.
I kinda feel that they only really make a difference to a certain angle then start to loose grip.

Again ... WOW

Greg Guimond
12-26-2011, 05:27 AM
Jim, on my 15" motor with Sportmaster I run the prop shaft dead even with the bottom of the hull for that application with either a Bravo or Fusion wheel. Now in your case, I assume that the TRP lower unit is more like the nose of a Torquemaster so below is a photo for you with some extra data points.

Morgan, your comment is an interesting one on the TRP. It might mean that the max efficiency of that particular drive will require Jim to install some wedges as he dials it in to keep the thrust angles in check on the TRP versus the factory transom angle.

Jim, throw a temp gauge on that 2.6 as you are fiddling around as cheap insurance. I think you will stay with that mill, I have a 1999 Promax 225 and may swap my 2.5 280HP for a stout 2004 225X that we are putting on the dyno in two weeks. Andy DiSario on the board also runs a 2003 225X on his 16 OB. I can't imagine with the round bottom on your hull that the TRP won't be the better fit though once you dial it in. What gears does it run? If you can get some shots while underway that would be interesting to see the attack angle and rooster it is throwing up.

:lightning:lightning

MikeB1
12-26-2011, 09:51 AM
[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

Wow, your boat looks great! I have a 19' pathfinder with a 150 V-Max and it has been a great motor for 8 years now. It is completely stock and the boat will run in the low 50's. Your Donzi is going to fly. I really like the twin captains chairs, that is a perfect set up. Enjoy and maybe I will see you out on the water in a year or two.
Thank you,
Mike

mermademarine
12-26-2011, 01:12 PM
my daughter said she wanted a boat but it had to be bigger than her brothers, ( he has a 15' flats skiff) had to have a steering wheel, (his has a 25hp tiller engine), and had to be pink!
it took a year but is a cap off full rebuild.
69394

linckeil
07-09-2012, 09:43 PM
hey guys - i'm bringing this old thread back to life as i've found what i'm told is a 1973 donzi 16 outboard. no motor on it, but hull looks to be in good shape. interior is toast. whats the value on a solid baby 16 hull? i found a sticker on it with the following data:

first box on sticker says: 16-100
second box on sticker is labeled "OUTDRIVE NO." and the box is blank
third box on sticker is labeled "ENGINE NO." and the box says "00003082". the first character was a bit blurry, but i think it was a "0".
the very bottom of the sticker says "patent 3,162,167"

thats all i could make out. the very top of the sticker was missing, so i don't know if i got everything, but i know most of it is there. any other identification numbers on the hull i should look for? this sticker was found behind where the lounge seating rear cushion be, directly in front of the motor. any help in decifering these numbers? whats a rough estimate on value? solid hull, needs repaint, interior shot, no motor (has omc controls) and has a decent trailer.

thanks a lot.

linckeil
07-10-2012, 05:02 PM
so any thoughts on value? i'm anxious to make an offer as i've been in the market for an early to mid 70's 15-18 boat to put my 1972 mercury 1400 on. i'd bascially recreate the exact boat and motor in the advertisement seen in the first post of this thread.

i'm new to donzi's and this boat recently surfaced and i can't think of a better one to put my engine on.

so before i make an offer i'd like an opinion from the donzi experts here. thanks guys.

VetteLT193
07-11-2012, 08:13 AM
hard to say on value. Depends on condition really. There are a couple babys for sale right now. The cheaper of the two is asking 6500 with an early 90's Merc 200. It has a wrong interior (re-done incorrectly). Mis-matched gauges and a few issues that need to be cleaned up. There is another asking 10k that looks (in pics) super nice with a newer 115 Merc.

Both of these come with trailers and are basically ready to be taken on the water.

So... use them as examples for pricing.

Just Say N20
07-11-2012, 09:02 AM
Without seeing any pictures, no engine, toasted interior, no info on instrumentation, tank condition, trailer included?, etc. it is tough to say.

I would offer $3,500. You will have $2,500-ish on replacing the interior correctly. If the tank is not in good shape (original), and needs to be replaced it could be $350 for new tank, but a LOT of work to remove the old and install a new one (search for "Deck off" threads. If it needs a gauge package, $150 and up, throttle/shift mechanism, $200. Steering cable? Throttle & shift cables? Trailer? Can the gel be sanded, polished, and waxed back to good condition, if you want that "new" look?

linckeil
07-11-2012, 02:02 PM
thanks for the input. i wish i had some pictures to post, but i do not. i know assigning a value based on a brief description isn't easy. anyway, i have an offer out there and i'll wait and see.........

any thoughts on the numbers i posted that were found on the foil sticker? if you look at the picture mermademarine posted of the white 16 with pink stripe, the sticker was found directly behind the split in the back cushion of the rear seat - right in front of the pink stripe.

anywhere else on the boat i should look for data? is there a HIN stamped or glassed in somewhere on the hull?

VetteLT193
07-11-2012, 02:18 PM
I think Poodle, on the .org site, will be able to get you information based on those numbers.

linckeil
07-11-2012, 02:23 PM
sorry - new here - but whats the ".org site"?

mattyboy
07-11-2012, 02:45 PM
read post 42 in this thread if you are talking about 16 baby outboard hull number 100 it is the same boat that xmetal was looking at in the past


a Baby 16 would not have any info on outdrive

so the numbers you posted would be hull 100


one of the very few that was sold with a eggbeater most were sold-unpowered it was the serial number to the 85 evenrude

can you confirm the colors on the boat?

the HIN should be stamped on the upper starboard side of the transom by the hull deck joint

linckeil
07-11-2012, 03:07 PM
yeah - i saw that post by XMETAL. is he still around? anyone know if he bought that boat? i looked closely at his post and based on the sticker i found, it would indicate that i am looking at hull #100 as well. i need to find the HIN to verify if it's the same.

the boat may have had a repaint - if memory serves me correctly from when i looked at it, it had blue sides, a white bottom, a white top, and a red stripe down the middle.

maybe he's the guy i'm trying to buy from right now??? i sent him a PM.

mattyboy
07-11-2012, 03:31 PM
you're going to need to find the HIN there should be a "B" in the number somewhere.

XMETAL
07-16-2012, 01:34 AM
I know of 2 in Maine.

linckeil
07-24-2012, 09:36 PM
so i made a deal on the boat - picked it up tonight and it's now sitting in my driveway. it is the boat that member XMETAL was considering 7 months ago. it's a 1973 model, hull number DMR161000973B. the guy i bought it from has owned it since 1993. i'll get some pictures up this weekend.

mattyboy
07-25-2012, 07:43 AM
congrats good luck :)

linckeil
07-25-2012, 10:16 AM
thanks - i see a lot of potential for this boat.

i found the listing on craigslist, but last night when i was talking with the seller, he had mentioned he posted it for sale on this website. i took a look and found his ad. here it is:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?66572-for-sale-1973-sweet-sixteen-outboard


you can see some pictures there. the aluminum trailer is in really nice shape. he also had the original red seat cushions that are in OK shape.

even though the deal is complete, i'd like to know what you guys think a fair price would be now that you can see some pictures. i think i got a good deal, and i'll let you know what i paid after i get a few thoughts as to it's value. thanks.

linckeil
07-31-2012, 10:27 AM
i posted a bunch of pics and asked a few questions over at the .org site (not really sure what the difference is between the two sites?)

anyway, here's the link:

http://www.donzi.org/forum/showthread.php/3066-Donzi-16-quot-Baby-quot-OB-Pics-amp-Questions

if you guys could check it out and let me know your thoughts it would be appreciated. thanks.

Jets4fan4eva
08-07-2012, 09:58 PM
I am looking for a Baby 160 OB in or around Long Island and the tri state area for under $7,000

get back to me soon if you know of one

linckeil
08-15-2012, 01:58 PM
here's a '76 for sale in mass. listed on ebay right now....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-Donzi-Sweet-16-OUTBOARD-VERY-RARE-WITH-ORIGINAL-TRAILER-RARE-RARE-RARE-/271036592002?forcev4exp=true

linckeil
08-16-2012, 04:33 PM
here's a guy in mass selling one. its on ebay - here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-Donzi-Sweet-16-OUTBOARD-VERY-RARE-WITH-ORIGINAL-TRAILER-RARE-RARE-RARE-/271036592002?forcev4exp=true

i asked the seller for the HIN, but havent heard back yet.

Greg Guimond
06-08-2013, 01:11 PM
for the record 16 baby production numbers are "169" from aug of 1970 to april of 1978. a production baby would have rh helm most came all white with blue stripes but other colors were produced. there were one if not more prototypes before that production run the first documented on was in 1967, plus the mid 90's newer one's


I know of a few locally plus on lake george I will check the club's records. here is one from lake george with yellow stripes very uncommon.

http://www.lgdonziclassic.com/gallery/v/2011dustoff/sregatta/IMG_5752.JPG.html

Draggin it TTT. I never realized that the first prototype 16 Baby was back in 1967 :cool!:

Greg Guimond
06-08-2013, 01:20 PM
While I was searching for weedeater info, I ran across the interchange below. Should be of interest to the 6 or so folks on this forum that have the 16 OB Baby model. In essence it creates a nice bit of controversy about when the first ever factory 16 OB Baby was actually built. lou indicates he owns the first 16 OB Baby ever built, a 1965 "stinkin" wacker! Anyone know how to contact 'ol lou? He had a lot to say 12 years ago :rlol: The attached picture is of the alleged 1965 16 Baby.


10-01-2001
lou
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 113
BIG BAD DONZI, my 1965 16 outboard belonged to Gerry Walin he was the first owner, I also have a money clip with the starflight IV that was given to him by Evinrude for setting a speed record. It was one of the first Donzis built.
__________________
Lou


10-01-2001
BIG BAD DONZI
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 128
Lou, if Gerry is still around, ask him if he had the transom customized hinself in order to make it outboard compatible. Production Donzi 16s did not leave the factory that way in 65. What outboard speed record does the clip refer to? (Mercs have ruled as long as I can remember)


10-02-2001
lou
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 113
Big Bad Donzi: The boat was made this way by Donzi, Walin was a Donzi & Evinrude Dealer up north and sold both inboards and outboards. Don knew him very well. This was Gerry's personal boat He put a 135 hp Evinrude Starflite motor on it. Brownie said that Gerry died in an accident, I purchased the boat in 1976 when I worked for Bertam in Miami.
__________________
Lou


10-02-2001
BIG BAD DONZI
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 128
Lou, that was a hell of an achievement by Gerry hitting those speeds back in the 60's. That Evinrude ad is great and your clip is a true piece of history. Still do not recall any outboard 16s being produced in 65 but Don did special things for his friends and this might have been one of those. All the Best

10-03-2001
Tito
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 21
BIG GRIZZLY I know Lou and I have seen his 16 outboard run. I have been wrenching on boats since I worked for River Marine in 63, and he may be too modest to tell you, but his donzi outboard blew my 1970 H&M Donzi 16 away. My boat did an honest (and scary) 65 on my gps. His boat has an evinrude V-4 135 that is a factory race motor it has four exhaust pipes the size of softball bats and only a two bladed prop. It sounds like an airplane and it SCREAMS! What ever has been done on that motor is working right. I also was a non believer. He also owns a wicked 45zx and has a SH*T load of toys.
__________________
Tito

Tito ; Thanks for your comment. I have been meaning to take a picture for awhile but have just not done it. I have had that boat since 76 and I am so familiar with it that I sometimes take it for granted. I am in Chicago and will take and post detailed pictures when I get back to Florida in December . It is just like any other 16 but outboard with a real interesting motor from the mid 60's.
__________________
Lou

I left Donzi on Halloween, 1967, and until then, we had not built any stinkin' outboard 16's. It was a product of the Chisholm brothers after the recession of 1970. Jr., your time table is a little off. Aronow, 64 up to April 65. Teleflex, April 65 to Halloween 67. Chisholm brothers, Halloween 67 to Genth.
__________________
BROWNIE

mattyboy
06-09-2013, 08:56 AM
Greg,

you may want to search the 135 hp starflite the only reference i see is to the live and let die boat 1973
here is a link on Rude history

it also shows the speed record in the 1960s

http://www.evinrude.com/Historical-Timeline/

hull 452 was an all red hull white deck red stripe started in july of 67 and finished in aug of 67 invoiced in nov of 67 it is also mark EXPER I would imagine for experimental it is the first recorded OB 16

you have posted pics of what I believe to be this hull it is a LH helm boat at that time they were going ape**** in production no time to re tool the deck to a RH helm

the pic is bw and there are notes about the OB well

the other pics you posted of lou's boat show some signs of being an I/O hull like the floor vent I don't think they would cut that in an OB boat but who knows . without a visual inspection of Lou's boat one will never know

one thing to keep in mind a production Baby OB has longer inner strakes than it's skisporter sister this was done in the 1970's the change eventually made it over to the skisporter.

mattyboy
06-09-2013, 09:17 AM
Greg

the first time I see the 16 OB from the factory is the 71 brochure. I have to find the 70 brochure to see if it is in there

from the LGDCC library

http://www.lgdonziclassic.net/pdfs/1971Brochure.pdf

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 09:56 AM
Very interesting feedback Matty and really nice to see well preserved and formatted documentation. I can remember receiving that exact package in the mail. I was able to track down Dr Lou Benz and he kindly provided the following email which has some really cool (to me) info on the first 16 OB........read from the bottom up.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
These are pictures of the boat when it was picked up, I planned to send the
hull out to be media blasted so everything was removed and in boxes. I THINK
I may still have the bare dash panel as I forgot to put it in the boat.

-----Original Message-----
From: greg.guimond
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011
To:
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
Thanks Lou,
If you can dig up any photos of your old 16 OB that would be great to see.
Cheers

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
No contact information. Here are some pictures

-----Original Message-----
From: greg.guimond
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To:
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
Must have been a collector. Do you have his contact email or phone?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
I sold the boat over a year ago, the man that bought it was from Germany he
had some agents pick up the boat. When the agents got here they also bought
a Magnum Missile from me that belonged to Don Aronow but I did not hear from
him after that.

-----Original Message-----
From: greg.guimond
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To:
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
I am going one step further then just the bench seat concept. I am creating
a set of hidden rumble seats as well. Your comments below are very
interesting. How long ago did you sell the boat? Is there anyway that you
may have kept the Germans contact info?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
I do not know where I have the pictures they are photographs not digital, I
will look. I don't have any of the boat at rest in the water. Basically it
was an inboard that was converted to outboard, Brownie said that he did not
build outboards when he worked at Donzi but the pictures and documentation
prove otherwise as that boat had only one previous owner Gerry Walin and was
titled to him in 65 as an outboard. It had a 1965 90 hp Evinrude starflite
with a custom exhaust that looked like four baseball bats sticking out of
the back of the engine. The same type that was used by Walin to break the
speed record

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 16 OB
I sold the boat to a German, the boat was
custom made for Gerry Walin and was a modified inboard and probably the
first outboard built. I did not want to sell the boat but he talked me out
of it. I now have a Donzi spitfire.
Lou

mattyboy
06-09-2013, 11:01 AM
Greg

it may very well be a 65 that was converted there are no clamshell vents on the rear deck . The factory very well may have modified it they also modified a 19 hornet hull race boat to an OB in the very early days of Donzi.

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 11:21 AM
That makes sense that it was an experimental conversion from an I/O to an O/B given the air vent location beneath the seat in the cockpit area. Matty, what year is the first known 16 I/O again?

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 04:25 PM
I am on a flight to LA so have time to do some more research at 30,000 feet. Here is the picture of the 1973 Starflight 135 that was used in Bond. I'm going to poke around now to see how far the Starflight series may have gone back before 1973 :screwy:

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 04:38 PM
Well this would indicate that the Starflight series went back into the 60's but no mention of the 135HP model......hmmmm


Evinrude Starflite
In 1958, OMC re-introduced 4-cylinder models to the line of Evinrude (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=EvinrudeHome) and Johnson (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=JohnsonHome) outboard motors- the first since the discontinuation for 1951 of the opposed quad cylinder Evinrude Speedifour (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=SpeediFour). Instead of an opposed configuration, the new 4-cylinder models were a 90-degree V-4 design. The 1958 and 1959 offerings using this new design featured 70.7 cubic inches of displacement, producing 50 horsepower at 4000 RPM. Evinrude's version was advertised as the Starflite V-4, later dubbed the "Fat-Fifty" gained from a fuel economy. The Johnson division advertised their version as the Super Sea-horse V-50. Both Evinrude and Johnson models featured chrome-accented and well-styled cowlings, were mechanically identical, and were complemented by non-electric start models with less trim (Evinrude's Four-Fifty and Johnson's Sea-horse V-50).

In 1960, displacement and rating of these motors increased to 89.5 cubic inches and 75 HP at 4500 RPM. A high-output generator named the "Unicharger" by Evinrude was added for 1961. Rather than a separate pulley-actuated generator, the Unicharger model featured a stator mounted below the flywheel. Additional models featuring electric-shift (Evinrude's "Selectric Shift" (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=EvinrudeSelectric/edit) and Johnson's "Electramatic Drive" (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=EvinrudeSelectric/edit)) were added in 1962. After this year, Evinrude's 75 HP model with electric-shift was known as the Starflite 75, the manual shift model as the Speedifour 75.

In 1961, Gale (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=GaleHome) added a V-4 model to their model line. Inheriting the Sovereign (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=GaleSovereign) moniker from the 40 HP, twin cylinder Big Twin (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=EvinrudeBigTwin)-derived model, the Gale V-4 was similarly a top-of-the-line model. It featured a styled motor cover different from the Evinrude or Johnson V-4 but was similar in many aspects.

In 1964, a 60 HP (at 4500 RPM), 70.7 cubic inch, manual-shift and 90 HP-rated 89.5 cubic inch, electric-shift model was added. Johnson's version of the 90 HP model was advertised as the Johnson Meteor (http://www.antiqueoutboardwiki.com/wikka.php?wakka=JohnsonMeteor/edit); Evinrude's version as the 90-S. 1966 brought an upgrade of the 75 HP and 90 HP models to 80 and 100 HP, respectively. All models were available in both short-(15") and long-(20") drive shaft models. The diversity and continued production of OMC's V-4 line of outboard motors make for great ease in locating, swapping, and upgrading parts such that an experienced outboard mechanic may assemble a long-lasting and sturdy motor that may well perform above and beyond its original factory rating and specifications.



Technical Specs50 to 100 HP, 70.4 to 89.5 cubic inches displacement (depending on year), 4 cylinders

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 05:10 PM
Ok did a little more forensics work and took a closer look at Lou's email and he says the 16 Baby actually had an Evinrude Starflite 90 when Gerry Walin owned it in 1965, not a 135. Lou says he changed motors over to a 135 when he took ownership of the 16 Baby in 1976. Here is a picture of a 1965 Evinrude Starflite 90-S so that narrows it down some more. Now to find the race version of that motor.

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 05:18 PM
Ok, may be onto something here.........found this post from 2008 on another forum


October 19th, 2008, 05:32 PM woodbutcher1953
Join Date Oct 2008

http://forums.iboats.com/images/icons/icon1.png 1964 Evinrude Starflite 90-S


Hello, I'm new to this forum, and looking forward to checking in on it from now on. The question I have is that I just bought a old fiberglass boat, it's a Devil Ray by Custom Craft. The motor that came on the boat is the Starflite 90-S. My question is, what can any of you out there tell me about it ? I've got some experience with outboards, buy almost everything I have dealt with had been older than this, and Mercury. I had a friend tell me it looked like it had a special lower unit on it, and the motor might be something special. I didn't know if Evinrude made a factory racing motor that they sold to the public, or if what I've got is a standard Evinrude. Also, is this an electric shift motor ? It looks to be from the controls with the single lever and three buttons on top of the control box. I'm really just interested in knowing more about it. Thanks for any help you can give me. David

Greg Guimond
06-09-2013, 05:49 PM
Ok here is a confirming ad that shows the race version of the 1965 Evinrude 100-S Starfire that Lou refers to pretty specifically in his email and thread replies. And here in writing is a reference to Gerry Walin and his use of the Starflite 90-S race motor with the baseball bat exhausts in the left photo to set a speed record in 1966.

Entrop built another boat, Starflite III, and on September 17, 1960, using a 90 cubic inch Evinrude, he flew across Lake Havasu, Arizona, at 122.979 mph. By this time, Strang had left Mercury and was offering technical advice to Entrop and his crew. Strang soon joined OMC, eventually becoming Chairman of the Board. Entrop built Starflite IV, but retired from racing without ever running it. In 1966, Gerry Walin took Starflite IV through the straightaway traps at a speed of 130.929 mph on Lake Havasu.

dsparis
06-09-2013, 06:20 PM
Check with these guys they'll be able to answer your questions.


http://www.boatracingfacts.com/home/index.html

Greg Guimond
06-11-2013, 11:25 PM
A better picture of the Starflite III ........

Greg Guimond
06-11-2013, 11:51 PM
Below is a link to a vintage 60's clip of Gerry Walin running the later Starflite IV at Lake Havasu. This video clip along with the still picture of Gerry petting the "baseball bat" exhaust would match Dr Lou Benz's description below of the motor that the 1965 Donzi 16 experimental OB Baby had when Walin had it built. Lou also mentions that he still has the Starflite IV money clip that Evinrude gave Gerry for setting the record.

Edit:6/12/13 Gerry Walin is on the left in the below picture.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: 1965 16 OB
I do not know where I have the pictures they are photographs not digital, I will look. I don't have any of the boat at rest in the water. Basically it was an inboard that was converted to outboard, Brownie said that he did not build outboards when he worked at Donzi but the pictures and documentation prove otherwise as that boat had only one previous owner Gerry Walin and was titled to him in 65 as an outboard. It had a 1965 90 hp Evinrude starflite with a custom exhaust that looked like four baseball bats sticking out of the back of the engine. The same type that was used by Walin to break the speed record.



http://www.google.com/imgres?start=166&um=1&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=566&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbnid=wcJLMSsoZ6_HdM:&imgrefurl=http://watch.insidehmong.com/%3Fw%3DvvRmpXEoHnQ&docid=4W5uMqOEi7-mZM&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kBF_IH-hVAc/default.jpg&w=120&h=90&ei=muy3UaHGLMKeiQfa6IHQBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=975&vpy=132&dur=1903&hovh=72&hovw=96&tx=114&ty=47&page=6&tbnh=72&tbnw=96&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:72,s:100,i:220

Greg Guimond
06-12-2013, 10:51 PM
A better picture of the 1966 Evinrude Starflite with the "4 baseball bat" exhaust. What is still a little confusing is the actual OB that was placed on the 1965 Donzi 16 OB Baby Prototype as discussed on the post below from Lou. If the prototype 16 OB Baby was a 1965, and Gerry Walin hung an Evinrude 135 Starflite GP on it, I have not been able to find any info on the 135, only the 1966 90-S.

Posts: 113
Big Bad Donzi: The boat was made this way by Donzi, Walin was a Donzi & Evinrude Dealer up north and sold both inboards and outboards. Don knew him very well. This was Gerry's personal boat He put a 135 hp Evinrude Starflite motor on it. Brownie said that Gerry died in an accident, I purchased the boat in 1976 when I worked for Bertam in Miami.

Greg Guimond
06-12-2013, 11:30 PM
In 1970 Evinrude had this X-115 race motor, but I'm not sure why Gerry Walin would have waited until 1970 to mount a wacker on the first 16 Baby that Don built for him in 1965? And there is no "4 baseball bat" exhaust on the X-115.........hmmmm.

Greg Guimond
06-12-2013, 11:40 PM
But with that in mind here is an interesting comment about the fact that the Evinrude factory was constantly experimenting back then. With this in mind, it certainly is possible that Don A built Gerry Walin the 16 Baby in 1965 and shortly thereafter, Walin having access to the best that Evinrude produced for race motors, was the one guy who could get a 135 Starflite GP.


Thanks, I should add that since these were limited build racing engines, nothing is constant and generalizations are dangerous. For example, the Starflite SS/Strangler and Stinger all used the same basic clubfoot as was later used on the Super Strangler/Stinger GP. However there were are least 3 variations of this that I can find and have seen, and probably more. They made one with a blunt nose (no protruding "cone"), then one with a slight, rounded nose, then still another with a very pronounced pointed nose. The factories were experimenting all the time then. Sad to say it, but those times are gone-hopefully some day to return? The best days of outboard racing.

John

mattyboy
06-13-2013, 08:41 AM
Greg, may it possible that Don sold an unrigged I/O and Wallin modified it to an OB? A friend had a 16 Carlson in 1977 ish with a 75 stinger onit that boat was a lot of fun has a teenager.

Greg Guimond
06-13-2013, 09:37 AM
Matty, it is possible but as I'm putting the pieces of the puzzle together I don't believe so. Lou's note below (and earlier in this thread) firmly indicates that the boat was titled as an OB but were there even Titles back in 1965 ? The other piece that now seems to line up is the fact that the 1966 Evinrude Starflite 100-S race motor pictured above clearly was the same "first" motor that Lou mentions below in his email as being hung on the back of the 1965 Donzi Baby in the pictures. It is sounding like Walin might first have hung a 90-S Starflite race motor when he got the hull from Don A and then, probably several years later switched the OB to the upgraded Starflite 135 which would have been the motor on the boat when Lou bought the package from Walin in 1976. I'm still trying to find a picture of the 135 Grand Prix but it is fun piecing together history.


"documentation proves otherwise as that boat had only one previous owner Gerry Walin and was titled to him in '65 as an outboard. It had a 1965 100 hp Evinrude starflite with a custom exhaust that looked like four baseball bats sticking out of the back of the engine. The same type that was used by Walin to break the speed record"

And here is a little additional information on Walin from seattleoutboard.org

YOU ALSO KNEW GERRY WALIN?
We used to call him the phantom. He'd be going
down the straightaway...he was so small he'd curl
up in the boat and you couldn't see if there was a
driver in it. That how he got the name phantom.
Jimmy Hallum really got him going and built a
lot of his equipment. Hallum could tell you
more about him than I could.

Greg Guimond
06-13-2013, 06:31 PM
Some more sad info on Gerry Walin at the end ........his untimely death corresponds to the date Lou said he bought the 1965 Donzi 16 OB Baby

Straightaway records have been a proving ground for outboard drivers, and the success of some has been tempered by the tragedy that has befallen others. Entrop built Starflite IV, but retired from racing without ever running it. The boat was tailored to Gerry Walin, a rising star in the Seattle area. In 1966, he took Starflite IV through the straightaway traps at a speed of 130.929 mph on Lake Havasu. Wisconsin driver Jim Merton broke Walin's record in August, 1973, driving a 17-foot Mercury-powered Twistercraft to a speed of 136.381 mph. Walin set out to reclaim the record in September, 1974. He roared across Lake Havasu at better than 145 mph. Midway through the run, Starflite IV lifted off the water and flipped over. Walin survived the accident, but was paralyzed from the waist down. Unable to adjust to his new situation, he committed suicide about two years later.


you have it right. This was in 1974. The driver, Gerry Walin, had set Evinrude's previous kilo record in 1966 at nearly 131 mph. Jim Merten, driving for Mercury, established a new record in 1974 at just over 136 with a Twister II powerhead on a hydro. Evinrude broke the 1966 record-setting boat out of the mothballs to up the ante on Mercury, and Gerry was again the driver. Story was that he was fighting with his wife at the time and was not exactly "all there"; in addition he was one of those guys who would not listen when told what to do, he was going to do it his way. The engineers and setup guys told him to run just a few mph over the record; that the boat was not equipped to run much over 135. Reportedly, Walin was running well over 150 when he cartwheeled it in front of the small crowd. A Japanese photographer was there with a motor-drive camera and caught the entire sequence frame-by-frame. It ended up in the next issue of Sports Illustrated. Gerry was paralyzed from the accident. OMC spent a lot of money outfitting his house to accomodate him, but in the end he committed suicide. It was a tough ending to the factory top speed wars.

Greg Guimond
06-15-2013, 12:26 AM
Here is a picture of a 16 OB Baby with a 1972 Evinrude Starflite 125hp OB on it. Getting closer to the Starflite 135.

Greg Guimond
06-15-2013, 11:07 AM
The next year, 1973 Evinrude introduced the Starfire 135hp model. This upgraded 135 ran from 1973 to 1976 and those years align with the motor Dr Lou said was on the 1965 16 OB Baby when he bought it from Gerry Walin in 1976.

Greg Guimond
06-15-2013, 01:05 PM
Don A was no stranger to building the occasional OB in the 60's as shown by this picture of his 1968 Magnum models .......and a man who was there



The Magnum Missile was a copy of the Austrian racing champ and boat builder, Dieter Schulze. Don bought a 16' and a 19' and copied both of them. After we sold Donzi to the Chisholms, I worked the 1968 Miami Boat Show for Don selling the 16' Missile. The demo boat had a 135 Merc, and ran 65 mph. It would make a 30' circle at that speed. Anyone with an underwear concession at the dock would have made a fortune, if you get my drift.

Greg Guimond
06-17-2013, 11:55 PM
While the "Consumer" model Evinrude Starflite 135's were first offered in 1973, the year before OMC offered a race version to the competition circuit. It was a completely different motor known by two names.......the Evinrude Super Strangler or the Johnson Stinger GP, both identical motors except for the colors. Here is a picture of the 1972 Johnson Stinger GP, loosely based (displacement only) on the Starflite 135. The 1965 Donzi 16 OB Baby could have been upgraded with one of these race motors by Gerry Walin as it would have been the "next generation" of power above the 1966 Starflite 90-S Stacker that first hung on the transom of the 16. Six years (1966-1972) was a long time in the development of wackers back then and it was time for a new motor on the Baby. Gerry's relationship with OMC would have given him easy access to these race motors with 15" mids, special lower units, and a LOT of power.

Greg Guimond
06-18-2013, 12:10 AM
Some additional photos of the Evinrude race "Super Strangler's" and Johnson race "Stinger GP's" first introduced in 1972 and campaigned on the race course for '72, '73, '74, and '75. The third and fourth photos are of the completely different "Consumer" Evinrude Strangler 135 20" painted blue and white and sold only in '74 and '75. Gerry Walin was still alive for all of these years but there is no picture of which of these motors he had upgraded to on the back of Dr. Lou's 1965 Donzi 16 OB Baby. I'll have to keep digging..........

Greg Guimond
06-23-2013, 08:51 PM
In continuing to piece together the puzzle on what is possibly the first Donzi OB Baby built I have to go back to Gerry Walin to further develop the timeline. The shocking photo sequence below in SI of Walin's Lake Havasu accident puts a date stamp of September 1974 on the tragedy that left Gerry paralyzed. In addition, it is interesting to note the reputation Walin had for finding speed in any boat he ran. He would not have been experimenting with Donzi's and Evinrude race motors after that terrible day in September 1974 so any race motors he might have experimented with on the 1965 16 OB hull would have probably been in 1974. Make a note of the name Jim Hallum below.

"Hallum/Walin's most notable feat was surely the 100mph record set by Walin in BOH in about 1971. At this time, even the D's hadn't gone 100mph and wouldn't do so for a year or more. Everybody was blown away that an Anzani could go so fast. Before Walin got hurt, he made one more trip to Delake and ran 106 one-way. Gerry was not merely a driver of turn-key outfits by the way; he became expert at setting up his boats for race course or kilo, and showed fine wood working skills in building his last three boats. After Gerry got hurt, Jim got out of racing. Apart from his record as an engine developer, Jim Hallum (now in his mid-seventies) has always been one of the most likable men you could ever meet."

Greg Guimond
06-23-2013, 10:05 PM
Here is a picture, albeit a poor one, of the suspect 1965 16 OB in flight back in the day. This was sent to me from Dr. Lou Benz owner of the 16 after Gerry Walin. And some information about Gerry from fellow racer Ron Hill. Gerry knew how to make any hull go faster.


I feel blessed that I knew Gerry Walin. His Seattle buddies called him the Phantom. He got speed where there wasn't speed. I saw him go 87 MPH in a 20 cubic inch Anzani at Modesto, 1964....The sad part of this saga, is that a capsule would have saved major injury and maybe nothing would save his death. You are aware that he O'D on pain killers? Rumor had it, the night before this run, there had been some domestic problems. I got this information from Jim Jost, Evinrude's PR man. Gerry was not to go as fast as he did. Who will ever know, the truth, but I heard that he was just going to go out and "Bust the record" and go home...If you'd known Gerry Walin, like I knew him, I'm sure he'd want back in on the next speed run.

I think it was Leonard Keller, of Keller speedometers, that named Walin the Phantom!!! The Phantom should never be forgotten!!!

Greg Guimond
06-27-2013, 08:36 PM
I was able to find "Lou" after many years and he was very helpful and transmitted this interesting information about the 1965 Donzi 16 Baby OB. Wow! Very cool ........especially the 84mph

From: Lou
Date: Sat,15 Jun 2013
To:'Gregguimond'
Subject: RE:1965 Donzi 16 Question

Basically I bought the boat in 76 From Doc Jones when I was working at Bertram in Miami. It was Gerry Walin’s boat (named on the title) and a test mule for the starflite engine. Doc Jones was given the boat. The boat had a new 135 Evinrude that was specially modified by Jack Leek. The boat hull was Built in 1965, it was an I/O that was modified to outboard By Donzi, and was titled as an O/B in 1965. Boats were not titled in Florida prior to 1965 when I received it in 76. There was a wax mark under the center of th eupper hull close to the dash area clearly legible that said “OB1” it has resincoat over it and I believe it to be original . The engine was a marvel and could push that hull to 84 mph on GPS, at that speed only the prop was in the water. The engine was destroyed while I was running it in the bay (it threw a rod and destroyed the block) and I pulled the boat out of the water and stored it in one of my rental properties until it sold to someone who was going to restore it. He got what was left of the engine and a money clip that I got with the boat when I bought it. I was asked not to disclose the new owner's name, but he has restored the boat and it is still in his collection.

Greg Guimond
06-27-2013, 11:42 PM
The pieces data might be starting to make sense. Gerry Walin was on the "Inner Circle" of OMC and had access to whatever he needed. If Don A built the 16 boat for Gerry in 1965 that would have aligned .........Don's first 16 I/O was shown in 1964 by Brownie at one of the shows, I think Jacksonville. By 1965 things were underway at Donzi and if Don A and Gerry were friends it would make sense that Don's bravado would have aligned nicely with Gerry Walin's star status on the race circuit in 1965. Don built the boat and Gerry rigged it with a 1966 Starflite 90-S with open exhaust, just like his race motor. Time marched on, Gerry climbed even higher into OMC race circles, opened an Evinrude dealership, and kept winning races. Why not upgrade the 1965 Donzi 16 Baby OB #1 with the latest power? In 1972, that would have been the OMC Super Strangler/Stinger GP..............I need to do more digging but so far interesting, mostly to me. I'm wondering if anyone is still alive who was friendly with Gerry Walin, Doc Jones, or Jack Leek, all three of whom were involved in what looks like the first 16 OB ever built by Donzi. Gerry died in 1976..............and Jack has passed.

Jack Leek, born 4/5/24, passed Thursday 3/8/07. He is survived by his loving wife Charlcie; sons Scott (wife Sheila) and Randy (wife Farida); grandchildren Shane (wife Tanja), Sandy (wife Michele), Sharene, and Sara (husband Justin); and great grandchildren Sean and Logan. Raised in Tacoma WA, Jack graduated from Lincoln High School, and pursued his engineering degree from Gonzaga University after serving in the Navy in WWII. Jack enjoyed an active life that included outboard power boat racing. As a driver he set several world speed records, and had a long and distinguished career with Outboard Marine as Director of High Performance. He loved Jazz, traveling, sailing and was a gifted architect/designer. Jack was loved by many and will be missed.

Greg Guimond
06-28-2013, 07:11 AM
And a nice retrospective from forum member "lou"...........remember this was posted 12 years ago and seems very specific with regard to 16 Baby's built in the 1960's :yes:


There were several '65 and '66 outboards sold. I have a "stinkin" 1965 16 outboard that was sold to Gerry Walin by Donzi. He used it as a test mule for the Starflite IV and it still has the motor on it. I know of another 1965 "stinkin" 16 outboard that was used by Mercury for testing in 1966 on Lake X and was destroyed while in tow in Lakeland Florida. Donzi also built another "stinkin" 1965 19 foot outboard and it was built for the great Jerry Langer who drove it to first place at the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial.

Greg Guimond
06-29-2013, 07:21 AM
Some more information on the purported first 16 Baby ever built from BUIZILLA back in 2011 ..........


The gentlemen I just bought my 16 OB from, Fred Darwick, used to race a 16 IO, in fact he and his wife raced it in '65 in the 9 hour Marathon. Poodle, me, and Cliff have all seen the pic's and printed story line recently.... memory tells me he did say there WAS a 16 OB in there somewhere, maybe a converted IO to OB, it did have something else for awhile for power until it got the 135 however..... i'll ask him this week to jog both our memories..

Greg Guimond
06-30-2013, 08:43 PM
The trail seems to turn toward the Seattle area. In the late 1960's and 1970's Seattle was a hot bed of racing activity. Among the Seattle folks on the scene in addition to Gerry Walin, were names like World Champion Bill Muncey and George Babcock. There was a connection between Don Aronow and Bill Muncey and Don A evidently sent a 1964 Donzi 16 Ski Sporter out to Muncey in Seattle.

Here is the ad for that boat which turned up for sale on CL back in 2009..............

Greg Guimond
06-30-2013, 08:48 PM
And then two years later in 2011 the Bill Muncey 16 turned up for sale again at a dealer in Oregon. This particular boat established the connection of Don A and Donzi to the Seattle high performance crowd, of which Gerry Walin was a part.

biggiefl
07-01-2013, 11:06 AM
764877648876489This is my neighbors. It "might" be up for sale soon. Is it real and modified or a splash? Looks like a mod to me. Would you run away or it depends on price?

biggiefl
07-01-2013, 03:13 PM
It is white/red and has an old school 200 merc. Been in my neighborhood for about 10 years. Pad looks like it was added but not 100%. It has the rear storage lids but it still could be a splash. Supposably does 70+. Would need to see with cover off as it has been too many years since I looked up close at her. Does the transom scare you Jim?764907649176492

Greg Guimond
07-01-2013, 04:51 PM
there was one years ago on this side of the coast that a pad had been added, it was white/red... had an old school 200 Merc if I remember right

Time for a HIN or a flashlight look under the deck in front of the dash :eek: Here is what a factory 16 OB bottom looks like.

Greg Guimond
07-01-2013, 05:01 PM
Been in my neighborhood for about 10 years. Would need to see with cover off as it has been too many years since I looked up close at her.

If, and when biggiefl you get a close look with the cover off, try to lay a tape measure from the top of that transom lip to the bottom of the delta pad. That hulls transom lip looks like it is lower (perhaps cut down) than a factory stock 16 OB Baby's would be, but it may just be the picture playing games on me. :boggled:

biggiefl
07-01-2013, 10:14 PM
I would "assume" it is shorter......what would be the point of it being longer. The drain plug scares me as well.

Greg Guimond
07-01-2013, 11:06 PM
Who said anything about longer. There is stock factory height for a 20" mid and then a "cut down" modification for an SS. The lip on that transom also looks like it slopes down toward the center of the hull. Also looks like a set of inner strakes were installed. You need this project, it would be perfect for you to figure out. The drain plug area is probably the least of your worries.

biggiefl
07-02-2013, 11:26 AM
Could somebody post a pic of a "normal" transom so I can compare photos?

Carbo
07-02-2013, 12:04 PM
1972 Model

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/1972%20Donzi%2016%20restoration/100_1069_zpsd074f7cb.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/bigsnook1/media/1972%20Donzi%2016%20restoration/100_1069_zpsd074f7cb.jpg.html)



2013 model

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/143_1126_zps63585d2b.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/bigsnook1/media/143_1126_zps63585d2b.jpg.html)

biggiefl
07-02-2013, 12:56 PM
Hmmmm.....no air vents, no grab rail, weird drain hole, weird keel pad, weird 2nd strake. Things are not adding up. I can see the pad but adding a strake?

Carbo
07-02-2013, 02:08 PM
Those hatches would be hard to fabricate. In my second picture you can see the lip around the inside....does it look the same? That would be a lot of work to do that. Someone may have done a full transom before and added the strakes, pad and drainhole. The hatches and forward part of the well sure look like a factory baby 16.

Greg Guimond
07-03-2013, 05:51 AM
One thing is for sure, whomever did it knew exactly what they were trying to accomplish..

:confused:
The question is whether they achieved it. It is peculiar that the mystery builder chose a "true" Delta pad design. This makes me think it is a splash. Also as I take a closer look, the picture seems to show they created a keel notch. Would a factory 16 Baby have had enough thickness in the keel to grind down and create the Delta? You would want to see how deep the keel notch is, if it does actually exist.

If this is a legit 16 Baby, it would be the only one in existence.

Greg Guimond
07-04-2013, 10:47 PM
Here are some splash well shots from factory 16 OB's .............

Greg Guimond
07-04-2013, 11:13 PM
And a naked well ............... Notice that in all these shots the lip is 90 degrees across whereas the lip on the subject hull seems to angle down. :confused:

biggiefl
07-05-2013, 11:46 AM
Here is another 16 o/b in my area for sale.

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/3909424676.html

dsparis
07-05-2013, 12:31 PM
"one of a kind" That interior sure is

Greg Guimond
07-05-2013, 04:48 PM
The pieces data might be starting to make sense. Gerry Walin was on the "Inner Circle" of OMC and had access to whatever he needed. If Don A built the 16 boat for Gerry in 1965 that would have aligned .........Don's and Donzi's first 16 I/O was shown in 1964 by Brownie at one of the shows, I think Jacksonville.

Back to the story of the supposed 1st 16 OB Baby ever built aka "Hunt for Red October". It turns out that there were more Donzi connections back in Seattle in the late 1960's than anyone thought. In fact, there is a
very reputable source that says Donzi did build a 16 in 1965 and had it shipped back to Seattle for Gerry Walin. The boat was evidently ordered through a dealer out there at the time that had become very well known at OMC. The name of the dealership was Bryant's Marina in Seattle which was started by Jerry Bryant who also dabbled in boat racing. Bryant's evidently went on to become one of the largest Evinrude distributors in the West and had full access to all the brass. While the connection to Evinrude is without dispute I have not been able to verify if Bryant's Marina Seattle was in fact a Donzi dealer or if the 16 that was shipped out there for Gerry Walin (who lived in Seattle) was an I/O or O/B. Also interesting is the fact that famous hydroplane racer Bill Muncey had moved to Seattle from Detroit but more on that later.

smidgen too
07-05-2013, 05:16 PM
Found a 16' OB Donzi here not to far from Lake St Clair with a Evinrude motor. It looks like it's been sitting for some time, I have never saw it out on the lake.

Greg Guimond
07-05-2013, 05:52 PM
This gentleman, Allan Brown also seemed to think in a post 5 years ago that there may have been a connection out in Seattle with the 1st 16 OB Baby. I wonder if he is asking about this motor...........


Several years ago, someone found an outboard Donzi near Seattle, Wa. with 4 cylinder, stacked OMC engine. Anyone have any knowledge of that? Thanks.

Greg Guimond
07-05-2013, 06:18 PM
And also in Seattle, the name Jim Hallum starts to pop up a lot in the late 1960's. Ron Anderson was the master and Hallum was a an ace motor guy. Remember his name in an earlier post? More on that later ..............



In 1968 the British Anzani twin coupled block Class D Alky in the hands of Jim Hallum, Ron Anderson and Chuck Walters will be recreated again to be brought back into permanent existance and viewed on this and other boards. Information is now coming out from very reliable sources that Ron Anderson and Jim Hallum specialty racers (Region 10 West Coast) back in 1968, using an British Anzani engine coupler from Bill Tenney assembled a British Anzani twin block coupled (2 X 350CC Anzani powerheads) class "D" Alky for use on Chuck Walters racing Desilva.

Greg Guimond
07-07-2013, 12:34 PM
I tracked down Pam and she in turn got the response below from one of her two brothers.

From: Pam
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 7:58 PM
To: Greg
Subject: Re: Gerry Walin

Hi! I emailed both of my brothers, and I got this response.
Pam

When Dad came first came to Florida in 1964 or 65 while we were still living in Portland, he was working with Jim Wynne, who first introduced the Volvo stern drive to ocean racing. Wynne's shop was on the Miami River. Don Aronow was a boat builder and ocean racer who had worked with Wynne and had a shop also I believe on the Miami River. I think he also started the Donzi line of boats, sold to drug runners as well as the US government for drug runner chasers. Aronow was later murdered in Miami. I think Dad was with Wynne for only a couple months before he went to work for OMC. OMC sponsored outboard powered ocean racers and Dad got me a position on the Nassau pit crew on the Bahamas 500 ocean race in 66 or 67. It is possible that Dad met Aronow, but I don't think they were ever friends.

I have never heard of any connection with Walin and ocean racing. Not sure what boat and motor Greg is researching. The connection between Aronow and Seattle racers I have heard was a craigslist ad I saw a year or so ago selling a 16' Donzi purported to be previously owned by Unlimited Hydro driver Bill Muncey.

Greg Guimond
07-09-2013, 08:31 PM
More ties back to Seattle where this plaque courtesy of Bayside Marine (big thanks!) shows that Gerry Walin and Jim Hallum evidently did know each other pretty well. They raced together and if you want to talk about a set of brass, check out Walin running an 11' boat to a speed record of 101mph in 1971. In the Hunt for Red October finding Jim Hallum would be a pretty big key but it's not likely I suspect.

Greg Guimond
07-09-2013, 08:41 PM
More clues point back to Seattle where George Babcock and Bill Muncey surface again. It looks like Babcock must have raced for Bryant's Marina out of Seattle. I have not been able to determine if Bryant's Marina was a Donzi dealer at any point in the late '60's. They were a very large Evinrude dealer for sure. I'm sure I'll find out from someone.

Greg Guimond
07-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Muncey, while being a world renowned Hydroplane champ, was no stranger to running Evinrude factory boats as shown in this photo.............

Greg Guimond
07-09-2013, 09:30 PM
The holes in the transom of the 1965 16 OB Baby might also potentially tell a story about what race motor might have been on the back in 1976 when Doc Jones handed over the keys............

biggiefl
07-10-2013, 11:23 AM
It was not a Merc.

Greg Guimond
07-10-2013, 08:55 PM
Whatever Evinrude race motor was on the back of purported OB Baby #1 had to be a monster to push that rig to 84mph. That is faster then speeds today. :worthy:

Now there is also the thought in the back of my mind that Aronow and the Donzi factory did a special light layup version of the piglet 16 Baby for Gerry Walin, but I'm getting way ahead of myself. Right now my next step is to find out if Bryant's Marina in Seattle was ever a Donzi dealer and if Jim Hallum is still alive and kicking or anyone who knew Walin for that matter. After all this was 40 years ago so even if some young turk racers were 20 at the time that makes 'em at least 80 years old today :crossfing:

biggiefl
07-11-2013, 12:11 PM
In 1975 OMC debuted the 200hp V6 for sale to the public as a 1976 model. A modified version could easily brought a 16 to 84mph.

biggiefl
07-11-2013, 01:28 PM
In the 1971 photo it was a V4, what about 1976?

Greg Guimond
07-11-2013, 08:29 PM
When Dr. Lou Benz bought the boat from Doc Jones in 1976 in Miami it had a V4 Evinrude race motor on it with 8-barrel float less carburetor. That we know for sure biggiefl. Well 99% :umbrella:

biggiefl
07-12-2013, 11:45 AM
Ok...I am getting lost with all the zig-zagging going on with this thread....sorry.

Greg Guimond
07-12-2013, 09:26 PM
I hear ya biggie, you should read my Building Surface Tension thread, your head will explode. I can drone on with the best of 'em. :tase:

biggiefl
07-13-2013, 12:10 AM
Sorry....we are cool!

Greg Guimond
07-13-2013, 07:58 AM
No worries, it's all good. ;) Did you buy that delta pad bottom 16 OB yet so we can start a new thread?

Greg Guimond
07-14-2013, 08:37 AM
Does anyone know if the old Bryant's Marina in Seattle was ever a dealer for Donzi?

Greg Guimond
08-24-2013, 09:58 PM
Evidently a couple of guys do remember back that far and confirm that Bryant's Marina in Seattle was a Donzi dealer for 5 years in the 1960's...........





From: "A
Date: Sat,24 Aug 2013
To: Greg
Subject: RE:Bryant's Marina

5 or so





From: Greg
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:27 PM
To: A
Cc: F
Subject: Re: Bryant's Marina
Thank you Sir. Do you happen to remember roughly how many years Bryant's was a Donzi dealer?




From: "A
Date: Sat,24 Aug 2013
To: Greg
Cc: F
Subject: RE:Bryant's Marina

Yes. George Babcock owned it, Bill Muncie worked there.





From: Greg
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013
To: F; “A
Subject: Bryant's Marina
Hello,
Do either of you happen to recall if there was place in Washington state by the name of "Bryant's Marina" (Jerry Bryant) that would have been a Donzi dealer in '65 '66 '67? Thank you kindly.

Greg Guimond
08-25-2013, 08:11 AM
So the confirmation by the gents above that Bryant's was in Seattle, and Gerry Walin lived in Seattle, and Bryant's Marina was a confirmed dealer for Donzi around 1965 provides a possible tie in for the first Donzi 16 OB Baby hull ever produced. Gerry was very well known to the folks at Bryant's evidently so it seems logical that Gerry would have bought the 1965 hull through them. Have to do a little more poking around now with folks out in Seattle .........lol

mattyboy
08-25-2013, 08:27 AM
Greg

record keeping was a bit iffy back then but let me look to see if I can find any boats going to "Bryants" the time frame for their dealership is well before the production baby run but the 16 left the factory unrigged quite often

Greg Guimond
08-25-2013, 08:41 AM
That would be great Matty. I am putting the little pieces together as best I can but nothing is fully confirmed yet. It is key that Bryant's Marina was a Donzi dealer though. If you could verify what years they took delivery's from the Donzi factory that would be interesting. I am getting in contact with Jim Hallum in Seattle to ask about that if possible. He is probably 80+ now and raced with Gerry Walin when the Seattle race scene was really hopping.

mattyboy
08-25-2013, 12:22 PM
Greg

first go round nothing found on bryant's will expand the search

Greg Guimond
08-26-2013, 08:21 AM
I'm not sure how your info is archived Matty but it might also be worthwhile to look for anything related to George Babcock. Babcock was the owner of Bryant's Marina at the same time Donzi began shipping there first boats and continued to own it for many more years.

mattyboy
08-26-2013, 08:30 AM
I am checking the models that would be in that 64-68 era nothing in the baby( after the era) or skisporter info on bryants or babcock but again the early years prior to teleflex are really not documented and even on the early records all the info is not there. the one name I see on the experimental 16 OB is J. Brueil in mid to late 67 not sure if that rings a bell. will continue to look later

Greg Guimond
08-26-2013, 09:40 PM
More bread crumbs ...........

BREUIL Breuil, James F., Jr., 77, former long time North Miami resident, died April 1, 2002, from heart failure. Born in Buffalo, NY, Jim came to Miami in 1959 to work side by side with his father James, Sr., to build Breuil Boat Company. Together they constructed "Habour One", known today as Maule Lake Marina. Jim was a pioneer in offshore powerboat racing through the 60's and 70's. He was active in the boating industry, and at one timewas president of Magnum Marine. He served in the Army Air Corp. in World War II, flying missions with the 461st bomb group -15th Air Force. Jim is survived by his three children, Toby, Trey, and Tim; seven grandchildren and sisters Dottie Lammerts of Oklahoma City and Jane Breuil of Coral Gables. He was preceded in death by his beloved wife of 50 years, Nanette.

Greg Guimond
08-26-2013, 09:44 PM
The one name I see on the experimental 16 OB is "J. Brueil" in mid to late '67. Not sure if that rings a bell but will continue to look later.

Matty, when you say the one name you see is Brueil, what is the context? Thank you.

Greg Guimond
08-26-2013, 09:55 PM
Jim Brueil used to live on Indian Creek Island, Miami Beach, 4 or 5 homes to the north of the Country Club itself, I could see his house directly across the bay from my grandparents seawall, we used to ski by his house several times a week, a LOT of the photo shoots in upper Bisc Bay were originated from his dock, especially the 28's, Corsican's, and Magnum Missile shots.. at one time Brueil had one of his design flybridge hulls, another 28 Donzi, a 28 Cary, and a yellow/white Corsican hanging out there.

Jim, do you know if Brueil was a Donzi dealer and if he had any West Coast connections?

Greg Guimond
08-26-2013, 10:08 PM
Here is some info on George Babcock, owner of Bryant's Marina in Seattle where the prototype 16 OB might have been sold though...............

Greg Guimond
08-30-2013, 11:31 AM
Jim Brueil used to live on Indian Creek Island, Miami Beach. I could see his house directly across the bay from my grandparents seawall. A LOT of the photo shoots in upper Bisc Bay were originated from his dock, especially the Corsican and Magnum Missile shots. At one time Brueil had a 28 Donzi, a 28 Cary, and a yellow/white Corsican hanging out there.

Jim, do you happen to recall if Jim Brueil was ever involved with Donzi as a dealer at any point? Or perhaps if he had any private investments in certain dealerships?

Greg Guimond
08-30-2013, 11:42 PM
Thanks. I thought there might be some connection to Gerry Walin or Bryant's Marina but no such luck. I'll have to ask Matty why the JB name was associated with the experimental 16 OB.

mattyboy
08-31-2013, 12:23 PM
on the records it is the name that the boat was built for /billed to/sold to usually a dealer but it some cases it had just a name of a person.

bryant's donzi career could have been born and died before any known records. Donzi are more eastcoast boats and I would imagine getting boats out there was still a pita back then but none the less there was a donzi presence on the left coast my 16 was titled and repowered by HM of long beach cali in 69

Greg Guimond
08-31-2013, 01:35 PM
The one name I see on the experimental 16 OB is J. Brueil in mid to late 1967, not sure if that rings a bell?

This is key information. So it sounds like there was an 16 OB Baby built in 1967 and it was sold to Jim Brueil of Miami? That is not to say that a rich guy like Brueil ever even used it because as Buizilla mentioned he never saw an OB at the Brueil residence. Perhaps he bought it as a gift or just stuffed it in storage. Hmmmm.

mattyboy
08-31-2013, 04:22 PM
Greg,

I believe this to be the boat we are talking about in 1967, hull #452 would be a lh helm and you have posted pics of it in a b&w press photo has the "67" wheel

Greg Guimond
08-31-2013, 09:48 PM
Ok, so I am getting closer. We have confirmation via that photo that Donzi actually did build a 16 OB Baby in 1967 (well before regular production started in 1971) and I am sure that someone on this board will be able to look at that Merc wacker on the backer in the press photo and say if it is also vintage 1967? That hull picture is also interesting as it shows that the factory had to cut down the transom lip in a somewhat customized fashion. It looks like the 1967 "Experimental OB" was built for and bought by Jim Brueil of Miami per your notes Matty. And the fact that there is a press photo of it perhaps aligns with Buizilla's comments that the Brueil family was heavily involved in promoting fast boats of all types. If Don A built one in 1967 couldn't Donzi have built a 16 for Gerry Walin in 1965 per the note below? After all Jerry Langer of Miami won the Miami to Nassau "Sam Griffith Memorial" race in 1966 running twin Evinrude wackers. The hunt for Red October continues........

I was able to find "Lou" after many years and he was very helpful and transmitted this interesting information about the 1965 Donzi 16 Baby OB. Wow! Very cool ........especially the 84mph

From: Lou
Date: Sat,15 Jun 2013
To:'greg.guimond'
Subject: RE:1965 Donzi 16 Question

Basically I bought the boat in 76 From Doc Jones when I was working at Bertram in Miami. It was Gerry Walin’s boat (named on the title) and a test mule for the starflite engine. Doc Jones was given the boat. The boat had a new 135 Evinrude that was specially modified by Jack Leek. The boat hull was Built in 1965, it was an I/O that was modified to outboard By Donzi, and was titled as an O/B in 1965. Boats were not titled in Florida prior to 1965 when I received it in 76. There was a wax mark under the center of th eupper hull close to the dash area clearly legible that said “OB1” it has resincoat over it and I believe it to be original . The engine was a marvel and could push that hull to 84 mph on GPS, at that speed only the prop was in the water. The engine was destroyed while I was running it in the bay (it threw a rod and destroyed the block) and I pulled the boat out of the water and stored it in one of my rental properties until it sold to someone who was going to restore it. He got what was left of the engine and a money clip that I got with the boat when I bought it. I was asked not to disclose the new owner's name, but he has restored the boat and it is still in his collection.

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 08:43 AM
Here is an old thread from a long time Mercury mechanic that verifies the year of the motor on Matty's 1967 "Experimental OB" .........


Greg, definitely '68. Although I the said Merc 1250 to the archive photo, the one you show is different. After blowing up your picture I believe it is 1968 Merc 1000 SS. If you look at the back of the wraparound cowl you'll see what looks like model number 1000 more than 1250. Also, the sides of the wrap around don't show as much chrome pinstriping above or below the "MERCURY" script like a 1250 SS would. Anyway, it's a '68 for sure.

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 08:54 AM
Greg,

you know what a stickler i am about model names

If we could, let's call the two 16 OB skisporter OB or SSOB not baby's. the baby were rh helm and lounge seating made in the 1970's the later production run were 16 classic OB in the 1990s


I love getting to the bottom of a good mystery more than Hercule Poirot so let's take a look shall we.

Lou's boat from Gerry Walin:

in 65 when Don was still involved at Donzi did they make OB of models that were normally I/Os for racing? yes they did look at the OB racing version of the hornet 19 hull that won it's division of the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial. The problem with this era is they doing whatever they could to make and sell boats as well as win races record keeping was not a priority .

now hull 452 the J Breuil boat built 1967 when Don is no longer involved at Donzi . Teleflex is now the owner under the Mgmt of the Chisholms. On July 5th hull 452 is started an all candy apple red hull white deck candy apple red stripe. the boat was finished on August 15 1967 invoiced on November 16 1967 other notes
"EXPER." "OUTBOARD"

Both of these boats are LH helm as the RH helm deck as not been created yet that came along with the baby. Lou's boat is Don's first go at a 16 OB and hull 452 is the experimental boat that leads the Chisholms to the production run of the 16 OB BABY . this leads to the next point the OB engine most of which at the time were RH rotation to hang on a boat with RH helm. I spent my youth around small OB boats I had the pleasure of having a west bend 40 hp golden shark on my first boat a 1964 starcraft tin can. most of my friends boat had the more standard merc johnson or evenrude. I am far from an OB expert but I do remember the mercs never really changed in shape until later in the 70's the early mercs were white and red way before this pic then they were black and the name across the cowling was on a silver background that background changed to blue then red or vice versa I can't recall. wish the pic was in color that might help but maybe a merc guy can help on that.

the first published OB Baby I can find comes in the same colors as hull 452 but is RH helm it also has a merc OB looks to have the same transom lip and the same cover or snap pattern on the back of the boat the 67 wheel and the tach in the 1971 brochure (http://www.lgdonziclassic.net/pdfs/1971Brochure.pdf) I think this could be photographic sheecanery the driver in the color pic looks a lot like the guy in the back seat of the b&w photo and the blonde looks very familiar could they have done a neg reverse exposure on the film to get pics of a boat they haven't made yet in the literature for the upcoming sales year?? I can't find and all red hull in the baby records the first one with red sides is in the mid 70's

the first baby is rolled out in august of 1970 and is all white with red stripes

so anyone have the 1970 brochure?? I have the 69 and the 71 the OB is not in the 69 but it is in the 71

interesting stuff

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 08:55 AM
So that confirms that Donzi built a 1967 OB Baby and powered it with the "latest and greatest" 1968 wacker power from Mercury. Only 2 years to go to fully verify the 1965 "OB1" that was registered to Seattle racer Gerry Walin. I'm going to call Jimmy Hallum in Seattle next week to see if he can shed any light. He worked on many of the Walin outboard race boat motors.
I'm told he is alive and kicking out there at age 81...........:odie:

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 09:14 AM
Greg

I just blew up the color pic in the 1971 brochure I posted as a link if you expand your view in adobe and look at the DONZI on the side it looks to be doctored you can see under the I a shadow of the D and the pennants are reversed the bw photo is usa england and the color pic is england usa the Mercury on the motor also looks iffy the writing on the motor under the cowling looks backwards I think they reversed the exposure and fixed the only thing that would tell you they did it the words donzi and mercury.

they put a man on the moon right???????? LOL going out to mow the grassy knoll

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 10:06 AM
Greg, you know what a stickler i am about model names. If we could, let's call the two 16 OB's "skisporter OB" or "SSOB" not baby's. the baby were rh helm and lounge seating made in the 1970's the later production run were 16 classic OB in the 1990s interesting stuff

Yep, I agree 100% with you. 16 OB Baby's were only the factory produced RH helms with lounge style seating produced from August 1970 thru 1978.

Going forward I will use "1965 16OB#1" and "1967 Experimental 16 OB" to keep things straight. I am absorbing the rest of your post now given the weather stinks! Better hope I never get thrown in the loony bin before (or because of) I solve the mystery lol.

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 10:12 AM
one more piece of evidence the water dump on the merc is on different sides in both pics ????????

it was Christina Blue in the boat house with the prop wrench

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 10:26 AM
Greg, if you peruse the FB page for Merc inline 6 motor fans, you'll see the years called out in differences with the cowlings and mid's, may have to go back several months on postings,.. this would be a '68 engine introduced in the fall of '67, it would have the red center band, I think the engine callout was on the mid as well as the wraparound... I don't think this is an 1000SS model as the wraparound isn't louvered, but that's my opinion, there are 2 or 3 guys on that page that can answer any questions you may have for sure.

Bummer Jim as I do not have a FaceBook account.........

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 10:45 AM
Greg

I have FB and will contact them and send them the pics see what they say

here is the color pic and a baby next to a skisporter

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 12:34 PM
It will be interesting to see what the FB folks think about the precise model and year of the wackers. One thing for sure is that the Blonde is the same woman and the guy is the same guy when you lay the photos down next to each other. If the black and white photo was 1967 and the catalogue shot was 1971 she has not aged a wink from the look of that swim suit, I mean picture. Why would the factory 1971 16 OB Baby have required the dual level splashwell lip as clearly shown in both photos? I think that the Mercury motor forensics will actually tell us more and more. Hmmmmm ....... :screwy: This is far tougher than hunting Warlock's, at least my bot does the work with that.

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 12:48 PM
the consensus is the motor is 68-70

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 01:00 PM
Three possible years? Tell those boys to work harder, they would never hold up on Blue Bloods. Back then as I understand it was right when the wacker horsepower wars were starting. Each year Evinrude and Mercury would change cosmetics a bit to differentiate that years offerings. I'm going with BUIZILLA and damn donzi's comments of the Mercury being a 1968 model year. If the motor is a 1968, why would Donzi have used it on a photo shoot for the 1971 16 OB Baby's? They would never have wanted a three year old motor on the back of there brandy new 1971 model. Hmmmmm?

mattyboy
09-01-2013, 01:19 PM
Greg

you are missing the point they did use the same shots in multiple brochures the red 16 flying across the bay found it's way into a few different brochures . both pics were shot at the same time i would imagine late 67 or early 68 they did confirm rh rotation on the motor

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 04:02 PM
It looks like 1968 could be the established year of that particular Mercury OB motor for sure so that is put to bed. And it looks like the black and white press picture of the "1967 Experimental 16 OB" that was sold to Jim Brueil in Miami is pretty much verified now as well.
Now off to Seattle to dig a little deeper on the 1965 OB hull ...........:drive:

Greg Guimond
09-01-2013, 04:33 PM
Did a virtual stop in Seattle and this post confirms that (as Matty said) there were Donzi's making there way out West in the '60s. Board member BobinCovington has a 1966 that
his Dad bought new at dealer Balboa Marine, Newport California. More bread crumbs .......



This is my first post here on the Donzi Registry. My name is Bob and I live just south of Seattle. I have learned lots of good information here on these forums. I am buying our family Donzi from my brother who has had it stored indoors for the last 20 years only using it a few times in fresh water. We have had our 1966 Donzi Sweet 16 in the family since new, my dad originally bought it in Southern California. In our last phone call, he said "Now... you are getting me excited talking about the Donzi". The boat is a british racing green 1966. Back then and right after he purchased it, dad had the motor swapped out with a 270 hp, blueprinted 289 built by Dave Zeuschel. I didn't know who that was but I googled Dave Z and found out he has passed away but was inducted into the Hot Rod Hall of Fame. There was an article in Boating News, August 1966 which my brother has a copy of. In the magazine they test our actual boat and have pictures, which is kinda fun to see. Anyway, the article goes on to talk about how Don Aronow, Dave Stirrat, Jim Wynne, and Waltman Walters designed this boat. Bob Kiple is the boat tester and has a lot of good things to say back in 1967 about Donzi.

mattyboy
09-02-2013, 09:49 AM
Greg,

In your side by side pics I think it is the same boat different deck and the hardware was re used that wheel was only used in 67

Greg Guimond
09-02-2013, 04:38 PM
Good grab Jim. There are few things that are suspect about the 1971 catalogue shot of the newly introduced red 16 OB Baby in that picture now that I look more closely at it. The biggest is the ghost outline of what looks like a canvas cover of some sort. Why does the red racing stripe terminate early back at the splashwell. Hmmm .........?

mattyboy
09-02-2013, 08:44 PM
Greg Look closely at the B&W photo same thing canvas cover. it is clear this not a Baby the OB well is different I feel it is the same boat with a re-worked deck the mast light is also on different sides.

things that have me puzzled did the water dump on a merc OB changed from side to side? in one pic it is to port and the other it is to starboard?

Greg Guimond
09-03-2013, 07:41 AM
Here is a picture of the factory decals that Mercury used for there 6 cylinder wackers for the years being discussed ..........

Greg Guimond
09-03-2013, 07:51 PM
Here is some comments about the red banding as well as a crisp picture of a 1969 Merc. I am trying to find out about the pee hole issue............


Red bands were used '68, '69, '70 & '71 with minor differences each year to identify specific years. The '68 & '69 were similar to each other as were the '70 & '71. Blue bands started in 1972 and ran through '75, turning multi striped in '76 and back mostly blue in '78.

Greg Guimond
09-03-2013, 08:06 PM
Greg, look closely at the B&W photo. The thing that has me puzzled is did the water dump on a merc OB changed from side to side? in one pic it is to port and the other it is to starboard?

Matty, I'm trying to get to the bottom of the water dump location. Your comment about the steering wheel in the black + white photo ONLY being used in 1967 is a key tell tale. It is perfectly plausible that Donzi worked with Merc to get a 1968 "new model" to strap to the back of the photo shoot boat so the pee hole location will be interesting.

Greg Guimond
09-04-2013, 07:11 AM
Here is an even more precise description of the visual differences between a 1968 and 1969 Merc OB ..........



Raceman is right on. 1968 & 1969 were very similar in the thick red band, the 1969's added the white decal model designation on the top cowl and the font and model description at the top of the mid section (lower cowl) was different in 69. 1970 & 1971's had 2 narrower red stripes that replaced the thick red 68/69 stripes and the 100 & 125's were replaced with 115 & 135's.

This picture below is from the 1969 Merc OB brochure.

mattyboy
09-04-2013, 08:15 AM
here is the negative exposure right is left and left is right only the legible words would have to be touched up

mattyboy
09-04-2013, 08:45 AM
both pics have the 67 wheel

both pics have the knotched cut transom non baby style


I would imagine the fuel fill on the deck is part of the deck mold that appears on the deck in both pics


the canvas cover and short stripe in both pics I think the angle of the BW photo blocks the rear fill cap

it would be nice to know what side the water dump and control connection were made or if they could go either way

I would imagine the first 16 lh helm experiment with a rh ob lead them to making it a right hand helm in production

hull 452 was invoiced and sold in nov of 67 the first baby was in aug of 1970 that would give them all of 68 and 69 to get things right ( punn intended)

Greg Guimond
09-04-2013, 11:43 AM
I will try to get the info on the OB's water dumps for sure. The other tell tale that I thought of was that there are no ski line hooks on the transom of the "1967 Experimental 16 OB" B+W photo boat that was sold to Jim Brueil of Miami in November of 1967. With respect to what looks like a "canvas cover" in the pictures, what do you reckon that was put there for? It looks like it was a snap on sort of thing. Do you think that perhaps back then they could only do so much with air brushing a photo? The cover (if that is what it is) makes no sense to me in that location. They would have had to fabricate some kind of splashwell any way for a promotional wacker shot. Hmmmm .......:cartman:

Greg Guimond
09-04-2013, 09:44 PM
Here is a clip of a 1969 1250 (same as a 1968) running on the hose ........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHVLKHwb1DE

Greg Guimond
09-04-2013, 09:47 PM
And here is a 1968 photo and a video clip of one running ........... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIlx748CSiA And also a picture below of a 1967 Merc which eliminates that from the suspect list.

Greg Guimond
09-04-2013, 09:53 PM
And here is a 1971 and she is still pissing out of the same starboard side ......... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MzywWVDk20

Greg Guimond
09-05-2013, 07:22 AM
those are two different hulls and different engines .... starting in '72 the stripes were blue if I remember right

I don't think the engines are different Jim based on the water dump always exiting on the starboard side on all the Mercury OB video clips. Also when you consider the fact that the 1967 "only" steering wheel is also present in the 1971 catalogue photo shot of the red boat I'm starting to think the boat used was the 1967 Jim Brueil of Miami boat. Why would Donzi use a 1967 steering wheel on a 1971 boat?

I have no real understanding of how they would have flipped a negative or airbrushed or manipulated the 1967 photo back in the day as I can barely take a picture with my bberry.

Edit: 9-12-13 -- A comment from another outside source ......

"the red pic is Definitely an altered photo - it shows the wiring harness plugged into the port side. Every one I've ever seen, save for the 20hp Merc 200, had the plug on the starboard side."

mattyboy
09-05-2013, 08:40 AM
Greg,

you have to go back to the days when cameras used film and you had to go to the photo-mat to get them developed and you got the negatives back in case you wanted more pics. If you have have a negative laying around hold it up then look at it from the other side a parallel universe or you have a doppleganger.

when the first baby rolled out in aug of 70 it was probably to late to get PR shots for the upcoming 71 model year brochure they went to the files or to the photographer who did the BW photo shoot and got the negatives. Someone along the lines said we can't have a LH boat pictured the production model is RH so the publisher touched it up.

also notice the standard hardware says lift rings for the baby i don't see lift rings on the color pic does the real baby have them?

so if Mercury never made a port pisser at the time how did Donzi get one into their brochure??? they must have redesigned it

in the color pic look closely at the D and The O in donzi the D looks a little wierd the O is just plain funky and the E in mercury looks very small also someone has to explain the breaks in the silver decal bordering the mercury in the area of E

Greg Guimond
09-05-2013, 10:04 AM
This is pretty interesting. After saying there were no OB's back in a 2001 post, in 2008 he seems to refer to one out in Seattle. Hmmmm.............


Several years ago, someone found an outboard Donzi near Seattle, Wa. with a 4 cylinder, stacked OMC engine. Anyone have any knowledge of that? Thanks.

Greg Guimond
09-05-2013, 11:29 PM
And also this comment...........


I left Donzi on Halloween 1967, and until then we had not built any stinkin Outboard 16's. It was a product of the Chisholm brothers after the recession of 1970. Jr., your time table is a little off. Aronow, 64 up to April 65. Teleflex, April 65 to Halloween 67. Chisholm brothers, Halloween 67 to Genth.

Greg Guimond
09-06-2013, 08:34 PM
One thing is for sure, “1965 OB1” was capable as shown by the note below from back in 2001 according to Tito below.

10-03-2001
Tito
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 21
BIG GRIZZLY I know Dr Lou and I have seen his 16 outboard run. I have been wrenching on boats since I worked for River Marine in 63, and he may be too modest to tell you, but his Donzi outboard blew my 1970 H&M Donzi 16 away. My boat did an honest (and scary) 65 on my gps. His boat has an Evinrude V-4 135 that is a factory race motor it has four exhaust pipes the size of softball bats and only a two bladed prop. It sounds like an airplane and it SCREAMS! Whatever has been done on that motor is working right. I also was a non-believer. He also owns a wicked 45zx and has a SH*T load of toys.
__________________
Tito

Greg Guimond
09-07-2013, 09:01 AM
I think the wagons are being circled on this first piece of the grassy knoll mystery........the 1967 16 OB

With the water pisser tube location now 100% confirmed to always be on the starboard side of all the ‘68, ‘69, ‘70, ‘71 Mercury wackers, the B+W press photo has a verified engine year. Also, Jim’s comments about his ability to blow up the photo to the point where he believes he can see “1250” labeling on that motor in the B+W pic is helpful as Mercury would have wanted the company’s latest and most powerful OB presented in that type of press photo op. We have the model year on that OB pinned 100% as a 1968. It was certainly not a 1969 model as it did not have the extra labels at the top of the cowl. As a ’68 this would have been easy for Donzi to get as a manufacturer from the Mercury factory and they could get that motor early, before it was readily available to the consumer. This also aligns with the fact that hull #452 (red with white deck) was finished being built on August 15, 1967 and invoiced on November 16,1967 per your archive records, which is then even further confirmed by the use of the 1967 “only” steering wheel style.

So it looks like Jim Breuil (rich guy who had raced fast boats) must have bought the “1967 Experimental 16 OB” in November 1967. Jim Jr, who died in 2002, was a pioneer in offshore powerboat racing through the 60's and 70's. He was active in the boating industry, and at one time was president of Magnum Marine. The Breuil family of Miami, who were close to Mercury helped Merc and Donzi, which was now now owned by former Teleflex executives John and Tim Chisholm, put together the B+W 1967 photo boat, with the latest OB power, a clean cut guy driving, and a hot blonde fawning. The resolution on that 1967 B+W photo is very good while the color 1971 pic is very bad which would indicate photo manipulation. Also, you can’t airbrush in a body like that on the swimsuit model. I’m sure Alan Brown probably remembers her name lol.

All that taken into account and bam! ………… a new product line is launched, OB powered 16’s. Don Aronow may still have had a connection with Donzi as a consultant as the Chisholm's had purchased Donzi in mid 1967. The Chisholm’s figure if Don A did it two years earlier they could do it better in 1967. Donzi (under the Chisholms) tests the 1967 Left Hand helm 16 OB during 1968 and 1969 in open shark infested waters and says “this can be better” so to balance the prop torque they switch to a RH helm (and flip the 1967 photo negative) for the production launch of the 16 OB Baby line, the first of which is built in August of 1970. That pretty much puts the “1967 Experimental 16 OB” to bed as legit. It was the Chisholm’s attempt in 1967 at building something better than “1965 16 OB1” boat that purportedly was built by Don A for Gerry Walin to test two years earlier.

But what about the smoking gun? The hunt for Red October? The 1965 “16 OB1”?………. I spoke with Jim Hallum in Seattle on the phone. Good dude and sharp as a tack at age 81. He confirmed that back in the mid-60’s the OB world was really seeing a lot of race activity and the horsepower wars were in full swing between OMC and Mercury. Charlie Strang had left Mr. K and Mercury to go over to OMC and form the Strang Gang. He is going to poke around for me with some of those still alive and see what else he can find out about the Seattle ties to the Donzi factory. I contacted Fred Darwick who raced a 16 I/O and he knew nothing about Bryant’s being a Donzi dealer. He got me in touch via email with Alan Brown who told me that Bryant’s Marina in Seattle was in fact a Donzi dealer for 4-5 years in the 1960’s. The Seattle “Seafair” Festival that began in 1961 was prompted by a group of Seattle marine dealers, headed largely by Jerry Bryant. Jerry and his brother Bill Bryant thought Seattle was the "Boating Capital of the World" and were active in all the racing circles. He indicated that at that time Bryant’s was owned by George Babcock. Babcock was a very active racer in the 60’s and started by racing (and working) for Bryant’s Marine. I believe what Alan Brown meant was that George Babcock was ultimately President (not owner) as confirmed in the 1973 Ebay photo of Babcock earlier in this thread. By the 1960’s Bryant’s Marine would have had more than 165 employees and Jerry Bryant and George Babcock would have known Don A for sure. Jerry Bryant then went on to build Bryant’s Marina into an even larger enterprise according to a daughter, Debbie Bryant Macy who I believe still lives in Mount Vernon, Washington. All that said, Jimmy Hallum, still living in Seattle said he did not really remember Donzi’s playing in the Seattle area waters but he confirmed that Gerry Walin was good friends with George Babcock and Jerry Bryant and was highly regarded for his skills and creativity with all boats and engines. He also had a very close relationship with OMC’s high performance group and had a factory sponsorship from OMC racing.

Why does this connection matter? Because as Dr. Lou Benz said when he bought the Gerry Walin “1965 16 OB1” in 1976 from Jack Leek it still had the hot rod OMC motor on it and was able to go 84mph. The only way that piglet would have achieved 84mph was if Don A built Gerry Walin a special light layup hull in 1965. According to lure, Don would do things like that for his friends. I have a 225X making 245hp on my 16 Baby and the best I have ever seen is 79 and that was only once. If Don wanted to try something special why not convert an I/O to wacker power and give it a try with one of the best OB drivers in the country in 1965, Gerry Walin of Seattle.

Here is a pic of the 1965 ...........

EDIT: 9-15-13 -- Still no firm agreement that the boat in the picture below is a 1965
EDIT: 9-17-13 -- Positive ID has been produced that proves the photo is NOT the 1965!

Greg Guimond
09-07-2013, 09:06 AM
The funny thing is that the 1965 boat is rumored to have been restored and in Germany evidently in a rich guys collection of some sort. Man it would it be cool to get a high res photo of the markings under the deck of that little 16 OB :yes:

mattyboy
09-08-2013, 02:46 PM
Greg

that is craker jack a member here on this forum that is a newer post 1990 sweet 16 not a 65

Greg Guimond
09-10-2013, 10:08 PM
I don't think so Matty. I think 'ol Crackerjack may have just "borrowed" the photo...............


From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 8:22 PM
To: 'Greg Guimond'
Subject: RE: 1965 Donzi 16 Question

That was on Lake Toxaway back inthe summer of 1996 we had just sold that property and moved to Lake Tahoe. The camera that took it was a digital Kodak dc50 zoom and I still own it, pictures are tiny. Right after that the engine seized here in Delray.
Lou

mattyboy
09-11-2013, 07:59 AM
Greg

you have me lost here, are you saying the pic you posted is of the lh helm 1965 seattle OB? now restored in germany?

that pic is of crackerjack at a gathering in Palataka sp Fla in 2001 some more pics

a mid 90's rh helm merc I/O 16

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?24815-Palatka-pic-s&highlight=


there was a video of that event somewhere here of him flying that 16 by mr x in his 22 not sure where it is now

Greg Guimond
09-11-2013, 08:56 AM
Hmmmm, now I am lost as well Matty as Lou Benz actually sent me that picture that I attached in Post 213 and said to me that it was him in the 1965 OB which as I look at your 2001 thread it clearly is not. Now, perhaps I misunderstood him, but when I asked he sent me the reply below just a few days ago. I'll ask him again. Hmmmm. When I looked at the picture he sent me, I did not catch what you caught on the drivers location. I thought it could have been a LH or RH helm because the pic was small and fuzzy. I did however wonder for a second why I was not seeing the wacker's cowl poke up in the back of the photo as I have been at that angle with The Mule and you can just see my OB in a pic. Hmmm.


From: Dr. Lou Benz
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 8:22 PM
To: 'Greg Guimond'
Subject: RE: 1965 Donzi 16 Question

That was on Lake Toxaway back in the summer of 1996 we had just sold that property and moved to Lake Tahoe. The camera that took it was a digital Kodak dc50 zoom and I still own it, pictures are tiny. Right after that the engine seized here in Delray.
Lou

Greg Guimond
09-11-2013, 02:34 PM
Yes, I agree that is Jack Keefe (aka CrackerJack) jumping his 16 boat at a gathering in Florida back in 2001. Cliff Clavin needs to get to the bottom of this lol.

Greg Guimond
09-11-2013, 06:55 PM
Here are the pictures side by side ............

Greg Guimond
09-14-2013, 12:11 PM
Greg, you have me lost here, are you saying the pic you posted is of the lh helm 1965 seattle OB? that pic is actually of crackerjack at a gathering in Palataka Fla in 2001


Matty, do you think the pictures are of two different boats when you look at the side by side shot?

wwahl
09-14-2013, 06:02 PM
They have to be two different pictures. Look at the background shoreline.

mattyboy
09-15-2013, 10:18 AM
Greg

I think it is the same boat maybe even the same run yes the background are different the fla guys can comment on that . I think the pics were shot from last tango's
big donzi crossing the big wake . I used that pic and the video of it passing mr x in a video i made back some years ago.

the supposed pic of the 65 ob is crakerjack's avatar why would he choose that pic and how would he even get it in the first place if it is not him and his boat??????????

CrackerJack
09-17-2013, 07:39 PM
This picture was taken by my son Brandon from Last Tango's 2550 Daytona on the St. Johns river heading north to Palatka. The other picture was taken by someone else on the Daytona. Probably with a 35mm or digital camera. Here is the original picture that was a single frame snapshot pulled from the Sony 8mm camera. Notice the ORANGE Fl. registration decal.
77562

Attached is the properties of the picture from the Sony 8mm camera.

These are the facts......from Jack!

Greg Guimond
09-17-2013, 08:24 PM
And the plot thickens.............. Thanks Jack for the hard data of December 2, 2001 and the forensics :salute: That is digging deep for a picture that was taken 12 years ago.

Greg Guimond
09-19-2013, 07:21 PM
Ok, now that we have settled the fact that the pic was an imposter back to The Hunt for Red October for the three people who care :rofl:

Although my research options are shriveling like grapes enroute to Amarone, I still believe that the 1965 Gerry Walin 16 "OB#1" exists. I located Jim Hallum, now 81, in Seattle who tuned many motors for Gerry Walin and he says he never saw it. I found Fast Fred Darwick, 78 in Florida who raced many times including winning the 1965 9 hour Endurance Race in a Donzi 16 I/O and he said about Walin and the boat "no idea". Darwick sent a note to Alan Brown, 80 in Florida who replied about a month later with an even simpler one word answer - "No". Multi word answers must not be of interest to Floridians, especially Floridians with race heritage who are being bothered about a weed eater by a Yankee lol.

So after those strikeouts, I sent a note to over to Wilbur McDonald's kids. Wilbur built the Starflite boats that Gerry Walin set the world records with. Wilbur, who was from Portland but moved to Florida worked briefly with Jim Wynne before moving over to OMC. I am waiting to see if they respond back. They may have information as the Son was on the pit crew for the 1966 Bahamas 500 race and his Dad was in the circle of performance guys including Don A.

We shall see. In the meantime here are a few more pictures of the suspect "OB1" ...............

Greg Guimond
09-19-2013, 07:22 PM
And another ............

Greg Guimond
09-19-2013, 07:23 PM
And a third ..........

Greg Guimond
09-19-2013, 07:26 PM
According to the owner it had center steering when he bought the boat from Jack Leek in 1976 in Miami.

Greg Guimond
09-21-2013, 11:26 PM
Greg, I love getting to the bottom of a good mystery more than Hercule Poirot so let's take a look shall we? In '65 when Don was still involved at Donzi did they make OB models that were normally I/Os just for racing? Yes, they did! Look at the OB racing version of the Hornet 19 hull that won it's division of the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial.

You are correct Matty. J. Langer was at the helm of that special build Donzi Hornet 19 with three wackers in 1965. Why did Don Aronow build a hull for outboard power? And especially for OMC outboards? Those OB's were race OMC's by the way which is interesting when you remember that Gerry Walin was signed to the OMC factory race team in 1965.

Here is a picture of the Donzi 19 in the 1965 paper ........

1996Z15
09-22-2013, 07:11 AM
The article states that the 19 Hornet was running 3 OMC outboards; you can barely make out the third motor in the middle.

Morgan's Cloud
09-22-2013, 07:56 AM
You are correct Matty. J. Langer was at the helm of that special build Donzi Hornet 19 with twin wackers in 1965. Why did Don Aronow build a hull for outboard power? And especially for OMC outboards? Those OB's were race OMC's by the way which is interesting when you remember that Gerry Walin was signed to the OMC factory race team in 1965.

Jerry Langer was always an O/B guy and had the OMC dealership in South Miami for eons. Even his last race boat , his Mag 27 , had two outboards (OMCs) on it .
If he and Don's relationship went back for years , which it probably did , he probably told Don that he only wanted an O/B hull and Don obliged.

Greg Guimond
09-22-2013, 08:57 AM
The article states that the 19 Hornet was running 3 OMC outboards; you can barely make out the third motor in the middle.

I pieced together two columns and then the picture. Someone will know the specifics but the words on the left side of the picture are referencing one particle race "Miami Nassau", and then the picture, date and words on the left I believe are talking about the 1965 2nd Annual Sam Griffith Memorial race. The Langer boat that ran in that Sam Griffith race in 1965 was the 19 with twin OMC's. I'm thinking that the Miami Nassau race was after the SG and perhaps upped the ante to triples?

Greg Guimond
09-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Jerry Langer was always an O/B guy and had the OMC dealership in South Miami for eons. Even his last race boat , his Mag 27 , had two outboards (OMCs) on it . If he and Don's relationship went back for years , which it probably did , he probably told Don that he only wanted an O/B hull and Don obliged.

That is a good bread crumb, thanks. It says that Don A in 1965 might not have been opposed to possibly building a 16 for O/B power for Gerry Walin perhaps? Also, the suspect 1965 hull was a center steering set up which tells you that it was purpose built. What was the name of Langer's dealership in Miami? I wonder if there are any of his extended family still out there with a scrap book of old pics.

Morgan's Cloud
09-22-2013, 12:04 PM
oops , sorry Jim , as a foreigner my knowledge of how one would describe locations in Miami is a bit fuzzy at best. I originally was going to say South East Miami but you're right about it's exact location. I was only there once and that was back in Feb of '93.

Greg , as to any extended family . He had a son , Bill and a daughter Ellen. I spent some time with them in '93 and they're both a hoot. Especially Ellen. She ended up running the shop for her dad in the latter years and sort of became the face of the business as Jerry tended to stay a bit out of sight.

I am not on any social media networks but maybe that would be a place to look if you wanted to get in contact with them. I would recommend going for Ellen first :biggrin.:

.

Morgan's Cloud
09-22-2013, 06:30 PM
Jim , is she still a hoot ?
The next time you see her can you tell her that Steve from Bermuda sends all his best ?

She'll probably say 'Steve who ?' lol

Greg Guimond
09-22-2013, 07:34 PM
Langer's Marine was on south Miami Beach. I don't think those were *race special* 'Rude engines... Howard Weiler ran the same *stock* engines on another brand hull in the same races.

Thanks Jim and Steve for the Ellen Langer bread crumb. In 1965 unless J Langer had OMC race connections he would have run stock Starflite 90-S motors on the back of the special fabrication Donzi 19 O/B that Don A built him. In 1966 OMC went to Starflite 100-S motors. As a dealer Langer could have gotten his hand on the 100-S motors depending on how late in the 1965 year the Sam Griffith Memorial was run that year. Of course I was not born so take my data with a grain of salt or two.

Greg Guimond
09-22-2013, 09:38 PM
So it looks like I am down to 1960's Donzi racer Jerry Langer's daughter Ellen, and world record setting boat builder Wilbur McDonald's son Gregg for clues on the 1965 16 OB#1 owned originally by Gerry Walin of Seattle. Should make for an interesting Winter :tase:

Greg Guimond
09-22-2013, 10:17 PM
Thanks Jim. I'm going to try and dig up her email so I can send her a note and maybe she'll answer at some point when she has the time and gives a hoot lol.

Greg Guimond
09-24-2013, 09:14 PM
The bread crumbs for the purported 1965 16 OB#1 are leading to two gentleman that were very active in the Seattle racing scene, Lee Sutter and Mike Jones. I'm not sure if they are still with us but they evidently they were both good friends with Gerry Walin back in the '60s and 70's. Not easy to get information on these gents...........

Greg Guimond
09-25-2013, 12:53 PM
I got a new source and I'm digging around to see if I can connect some of the bread crumbs. We shall see based on my questions below...........

From: Greg
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:49 PM
To: DDW
Subject: RE: Request For Historical Info

It would have been one of his “test mule pleasure” boats. We are researching the specifics but in essence we think he had a connection to Don Aronow, probably through Bryant’s Marine out there. The suspicion is that he ran one of the OMC Stinger’s or Super Stranger’s with Jack Leek exhaust on this hull to test it for Aronow and Charlie Strang. Again, the pieces are fuzzy. We have a fully verified build that occurred in 1967, but we believe the motor and boat in question could have been built and rigged as early as 1965.

Again,I’m sorry as details are still sketchy. This has been like the Hunt for Red October. Any insights appreciated. This is why Sutter and Jones seem to be coming into play.

Thanks,Greg

From: DDW
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:11 PM
To: greg
Subject: Re: Request For Historical Info

Gerry drove a lot of boats and we have one of them here. It is the R-46 Karelsen that he set the D-lake kilo with. If you can be a little more specific about what exactly you are looking for I can try to point you in the right direction. David

In a message dated 9/24/2013 6:51:28 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, greg writes:

The boat in not yet clear but the driver was Gerry Walin

From: DDW
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:50 PM
To: greg
Subject: Re: Request For Historical Info

Which boat?


a message dated 9/24/20136:39:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, greg writes:
Hello, I am researching a boat and a driver and was hoping to get contact information for both Mike Jones and Lee Sutter, both of whom evidently knew the boat. Any leads appreciated. Thank you, Greg Guimond

Greg Guimond
09-29-2013, 08:15 AM
Well it turns out that both Lee Sutter and Mike Jones are still alive and kickin. Evidently they are also both on Facebook but I don't have FB so I can't see if there is any contact info :frown:

mattyboy
09-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Greg

time to join social media

Greg Guimond
10-01-2013, 07:47 PM
Funny how I have no interest in Face Book, tweeting, instagramming, vine, or snap chat, but I do have a bad ass abacus :kingme:

Greg Guimond
10-11-2013, 10:51 PM
Have not been able to make contact with Lee Sutter or Mike Jones yet but I did run across this 1967 news clip about Gerry Walin and Jerry Langer ............

Greg Guimond
10-13-2013, 06:30 PM
And while I continue to look for Lee Sutter, here is some additional comments on how Don A and Donzi did some unique builds back in the day. Has anyone ever turned up the issue of Powerboat Magazine that is mentioned below? I guess it would have been one of the 1976 issues ...........



There were many factory custom small Donzi's built in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Mostly 16's & 18's as yacht tenders, test facility boats, military drones and special use platforms, such as camera boats, etc. I'll direct you to positive proof on one, and you'll just have to take my word on the many others. In 1976, Johnson & Evinrude introduced their first V-6 outboard. Powerboat Magazine had an introduction article written up in one of their 1976 issues. They highlighted this new 200hp V6 engine on the front cover running out of their Stuart, Florida Test Facility on a yellow & white 18' Donzi, with a D.A. Heinrich modified OMC 3-blade O.T.H. cleaver propeller. At that time, I inquired to Donzi, as I was in the market for one & was told they had built two for OMC, but were not interested in building any more. Also unique about the OMC Donzi 18' OB boats, they were wrap-around interiors, not 2+3's. I still have the issue of PB stored away.

Greg Guimond
10-19-2013, 02:54 PM
I got some help in locating Lee Sutter from Wilbur McDonald's family. Wilbur built the Starflite race boats that Gerry Walin set the World Record with. Here is the note.........

From: Gregg and Leah McDonald
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 3:40 PM
To: Greg Guimond
Subject: Gerry Walin and Lee Sutter

Greg,

I ran into Lee down at Lincoln City, OR last weekend at the kilo speed trials. He said he did not remember any connection between Gerry and Donzi, but that he was living in Wisconsin by the time Gerry died. He said he would ask around to see what he could find out.

Lee was driving tunnel boats on the OPC circuit about that time. I think I saw where he won a marathon at St. Louis in about 1980. He is living back in Seattle now and just bought a C Stock Runabout that he planning on racing this coming year.

I have not come across those Miami pictures yet. There were four pictures taken outside. One was a deep V on a trailer with the number 400 and a British flag. I assume it was Tommy Sopwith's. Another was a picture of a twin hulled, twin outboard boat on the river also with the number 400. Another was of a couple aluminum deepV inboards. The last picture was just one looking up the Miami River - no race boats. I'll keep looking for them.

Gregg

Greg Guimond
10-19-2013, 08:57 PM
Here is a clip of Lee Sutter alive and kicking at age 71. Hopefully he will dig up some more bread crumbs on the purported Gerry Walin Donzi 16 and send them along


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCnLMkP3LBA#t=208

Greg Guimond
11-01-2013, 08:11 PM
Through Ron Hill I was able to get some information from Charlie Strang, the ex CEO of OMC who is now 92 years old. It did not shed any more light on the 1965 hull but the fact Mr. Strang is using a PDA to respond is pretty darn amazing!


From: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:39 PM
To: Greg Guimond
Subject: Re: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

Gerry was from Seattle, Don was from NY then, Florida..Don't think they were ever friends.





From: Greg Guimond
To: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:19 PM
Subject: RE: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

Ok, well than Jack Leek sold an OB Donzi in 1976 that came romGerry’s family. It was said to have center steering and an SS on theback. It was said to be a 1965. I’m not sure if you read the letterI sent to you earlier but Gerry evidently was friends with Don Aronow

From: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:12 PM
To: Greg Guimond
Subject: Re: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

WELL, I KNEW Gerry, but not well. In the'60's none of us had money, but we had enough to race 15-20 times a year. Pleasure boating WASN'T something we did! We raced! (And not Donzi's).





From: Greg Guimond
To: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

I am VERY grateful and if it is not too much of a burden can I ask you to ask one more question. Recognizing that Walin was in no way involved in the design.......Is it "possible" that Gerry Walin ever owned a Donzi 16 as one of his personal pleasure boats starting around 1967 or later powered by a Super Strangler? If he can give insight into that it would be REALLY helpful in my search





From: Ron
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:56:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: Greg Guimond
Subject: Fw: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

Here's the answer to your question!

----- ForwardedMessage -----
From: (Strang)
To: Ron
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Gerry Walin and 16' Donzi?

Hi- No, Gerry Walin had nothing to dowith the 16 foot Donzi design.
The boat was designed for Don Aronow in Miami by Jim Wynne and Walt Walters. Jim did the concept work and Walt did the actual design. The original boats were for stern drives.
After the first boat was built from the drawings Don asked Wynne and me to come his plant to see the seating arrangement he had installed in that first boat. It was during that visit that the Donzi name was first used.
This was in 1963 or 1964 or thereabouts after I left OMC.
I kept a set of the original blueprints for the little Donzi and gave them to OMC when they bought Donzi. I was still on the OMC board at the time although no longer an employee.
Who knows what happened to those drawings when OMC went bankrupt about a decade later!
Anyway, Gerry Walin was in no way involved in the Donzi 16 design.
Regards,
ChasS.

Sent from my iPhone

mattyboy
11-25-2013, 07:03 AM
Greg
the trail may be cold on the whalin 16 but I have been in contact with the owner of the 67 factory OB . I'll post up once I have compiled everything, interesting story but for now it is a LH boat out of north Miami.

I have the pics of the OMC OB 18 as I recall it was a 2+3 i will look for them

mattyboy
11-25-2013, 07:16 AM
here are the pics for the OMC ob 18 that you posted the quote from air ride this as far as I know is the powerboat boat

http://www.lgdonziclassic.net/pdfs/18oblit.pdf

Greg Guimond
11-25-2013, 07:25 AM
Very cool on the Donzi 18 OB picture Matty. So that verifies that there was a "Factory" 22 OB and a "Factory" 18 OB :yes: Do you know what year the 18 OB was ?

mattyboy
11-25-2013, 08:03 AM
mid 70's, a buddy's family had a stuery runabout with a 65hp johnson that had color scheme on the cowling. funny factoid the stuery plant later became the plant that CC turned out Donzi classics in , goshen IN.

I have to track down and closeout the investigation on the 16 ob before i open the one up on the 18 ob

mattyboy
11-25-2013, 09:17 AM
Interesting how the prototype 16OB and the OMC 18 OB have the same 2 level transom lip??

Greg Guimond
11-25-2013, 09:32 AM
I did not notice that initially, you are correct :screwy:

Greg Guimond
11-25-2013, 12:28 PM
I think there was some talk that 2 ob18's were built for OMC, and they both ended up at the Stuart Fla test facility...


That is interesting and the timing of (2) 18 Classic OB's could very well have corresponded with OMC's introduction of there V6 wacker technology in the 70's. I believe that they introduced the first 200hp V6 model in 1976 and then the more powerful 235hp model in 1978. I remember the 235 because when I bought my first 16 OB Baby in 1980 as a kid it had a 235 on the back. This could also substantiate that Donzi and OMC were aligned during that era for testing. I could try and reach out to Charlie Strang, former CEO of OMC and now 92 years old I believe.

Do we by chance know an exact build year for either the "one" or perhaps even both of the Donzi 18 OB prototype's that were built. It is tough to tell from the picture below.

Greg Guimond
11-25-2013, 03:28 PM
And here is the 1982 Factory 22 Classic OB excerpt and photo .............


the rarest of the rare... 1983 Donzi 22 Classic Outboard. Blue & Honey. THE ONLY DOCUMENTED FACTORY 22 CLASSIC OUTBOARD KNOWN TO EXIST! Hull #DMR220521182OB. Rumour has it there may be a second one, but it has yet to be found.

The boat currently has a 275hp Evinrude V8, The boat sits on a 2001 custom steel trailer from Performance Trailer, Lake George NY. The trailer is in excellent condition, I originally had it made for my Yellow 97 Classic. Make me a fair offer.... its gotta go! Call me @ 978-502-5465 for more details. Will separate

Woodsy Von Outboard

mattyboy
11-25-2013, 07:30 PM
in sept-oct of 68 they built an outboard 18 hull 261 for someone at donzi

then hull 299 in march of 69 goes to OMC unrigged unpowered

then hull 390 in march of 71 goes to omc unrigged unpowered.

so maybe OMC did the modification and rigging from the OB and Donzi had Nothing to do with it and that's why they would not want to sell one

would be nice to see a color pic of the 18 OB to see what color it was but to me it looks like the BW pic of the 18 ob the colors could match hull 390

Greg Guimond
11-25-2013, 09:41 PM
Yellow and White Donzi 18 OB prototype ...........


There were many factory custom small Donzi's built in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Mostly 16's & 18's as yacht tenders, test facility boats, military drones and special use platforms, such as camera boats, etc. I'll direct you to positive proof on one, and you'll just have to take my word on the many others. In 1976, Johnson & Evinrude introduced their first V-6 outboard. Powerboat Magazine had an introduction article written up in one of their 1976 issues. They highlighted this new 200 h.p. engine on the front cover running out of their Stuart, Florida Test Facility on a yellow & white 18' Donzi, with a D.A. Heinrich modified OMC 3-blade O.T.H. cleaver propeller. At that time, I inquired to Donzi, as I was in the market for one & was told they built two for OMC, but was not interested in building any more. Afterwhich, I bought two 18' 2+3's & then moved on to boats that were much faster. Also unique about the OMC Donzi 18' boats, they were wrap-around interiors, not 2+3's. I still have the issue of PB stored away.

mattyboy
11-26-2013, 07:05 AM
so yellow and white would match hull 390 the other hull was all light blue with a white stripe. so who has the article? could they have mixed in baby 16 pics with the 18 pics that why airride saw wrap around seating not the 2+3 seating which is pictured? wonder if OMC ever purchased a 16 OB ???

CHACHI
11-26-2013, 09:01 AM
And here is the 1982 Factory 22 Classic OB excerpt and photo .............

If my memory is still good, (after all I am now in my sixth decade of life), Harbormaster purchased this boat and made it an I/O.

Ken

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 09:42 AM
Some of you guys are pretty fluid with Facebook. Maybe try to crowdsource a copy of Powerboat Magazine? It is already narrowed down, you are looking for one of the 1976 issues. If I rememember, Powerboat skipped a month off season so you are down to only (11) possible issues in 1976 that would need to be looked at for the article.

Facebook could deliver I would think on getting a scan of the actual article and put that Donzi 18 OB puzzle piece to bed 100%?

bertsboat
11-26-2013, 01:38 PM
My Friend Tim Breuil says he had the original prototype. His Dad, Jim worked for Magnum and was Don's buddy. He said Jim still worked at his Fathers company, Enterprise (Breuil Boats in NMB) when he got it from Donzi.
Heres is what he said. He is looking for pictures. I remember that it had canvas snap on covers on the back to cover the wholes that were created when they cut the transom.
"hey bro, my boat was the first prototype o/b, they just put a transom in it and hung a motor on it, they didn't like the performance , so it didn't go forward, It may of very well been one of don projects, not sure of dates, ""Actually the boat was red over white. And. I think Dad was still at Breuil Boats. I was probability 14-16 at the time""yep, first one!, I was 13-15 not sure so 1966-69?? really a "
I think Brownie would back me up on this one.

mattyboy
11-26-2013, 01:49 PM
Bert
yes that is 16 hull 452 the experimental hull I have been in contact with the current owner.

bertsboat
11-26-2013, 01:57 PM
It was the first prototype , they took the baby 16, yes with wrap bench, and single bucket, cut out the stern, and glassed in a transom , still had the engine hatch hole, they just got a Tonto cover made, The boat was too heavy for the motors back then , I think there was only 1oo or 125 hp, so the shelved the plan, that's where Dad came into the picture, got a deal and the rest is history, I started with a 65 hp, than went to the125.hp,

maybe I was 13 , so about 1966, and it was red and white, red hull,

bertsboat
11-26-2013, 01:59 PM
Working on getting pictures.

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 03:48 PM
Bert, the fact you know Tim Breuil personally is key. It pretty much substantiates my rant below about the fact there WAS a factory 1967 Donzi 16 OB. As Matty helpfully researched, it was written up as "Experimental 16 OB" hull #452 and sold to Tim's father on November 16th, 1967.

Matty, are you saying that you have made contact with the current owner of #452 and that the OB 16 hull has actually survived? Does it have a wacker on the backer?

I'm thinking that between Tim B and the current owner of #452 there might even be a way to garner more facts about the purported 1965 16 OB hull owned by Gerry Walin of Seattle. A long shot, but a small bread crumb nonetheless :boggled:



I think the wagons are being circled on this first piece of the grassy knoll mystery........the Donzi 1967 "Experimental 16 OB"

With the water pisser tube location now 100% confirmed to always be on the starboard side of all the ‘68, ‘69, ‘70, ‘71 Mercury wackers, the B+W press photo has a verified engine year. Also, Jim’s comments about his ability to blow up the photo to the point where he believes he can see “1250” labeling on that motor in the B+W pic is helpful as Mercury would have wanted the company’s latest and most powerful OB presented in that type of press photo op. We have the model year on that OB pinned 100% as a 1968. It was certainly not a 1969 model as it did not have the extra labels at the top of the cowl. As a ’68 this would have been easy for Donzi to get as a manufacturer from the Mercury factory and they could get that motor early, before it was readily available to the consumer. This also aligns with the fact that hull #452 (red with white deck) was finished being built on August 15, 1967 and invoiced on November 16,1967 per your archive records, which is then even further confirmed by the use of the 1967 “only” steering wheel style.

So it looks like Jim Breuil (rich guy who had raced fast boats) must have bought the “1967 Experimental 16 OB” in November 1967. Jim Jr, who died in 2002, was a pioneer in offshore powerboat racing through the 60's and 70's. He was active in the boating industry, and at one time was president of Magnum Marine. The Breuil family of Miami, who were close to Mercury helped Merc and Donzi, which was now now owned by former Teleflex executives John and Tim Chisholm, put together the B+W 1967 photo boat, with the latest OB power, a clean cut guy driving, and a hot blonde fawning. The resolution on that 1967 B+W photo is very good while the color 1971 pic is very bad which would indicate photo manipulation. Also, you can’t airbrush in a body like that on the swimsuit model. I’m sure Alan Brown probably remembers her name lol.

All that taken into account and bam! ………… a new product line is launched, OB powered 16’s. Don Aronow may still have had a connection with Donzi as a consultant as the Chisholm's had purchased Donzi in mid 1967. The Chisholm’s figure if Don A did it two years earlier they could do it better in 1967. Donzi (under the Chisholms) tests the 1967 Left Hand helm 16 OB during 1968 and 1969 in open shark infested waters and says “this can be better” so to balance the prop torque they switch to a RH helm (and flip the 1967 photo negative) for the production launch of the 16 OB Baby line, the first of which is built in August of 1970. That pretty much puts the “1967 Experimental 16 OB” to bed as legit. It was the Chisholm’s attempt in 1967 at building something better than “1965 16 OB1” boat that purportedly was built by Don A for Gerry Walin to test two years earlier.

But what about the smoking gun? The hunt for Red October? The 1965 “16 OB1”?……….

mattyboy
11-26-2013, 06:33 PM
Bert

I am doing an article for our website on hull 452 the first recorded OB 16 protoype I have been in contact with it's current owner and have the current part of the story and pics it would be great to do a past and present story If your friend Tim has any more info or pics I could include in the story that would be great .

he can email them to me a mnmveth@optonline.net Thanks

Mattyboy

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 07:14 PM
I am doing an article for our website on hull 452 the first recorded OB 16 protoype I have been in contact with it's current owner. Mattyboy

I'm still not convinced that the Chisholm era Hull #452 known as "1967 Experimental 16 OB" and sold to Jim Breuil Jr in November of 1967 is the first one. I'm still somewhat convinced that
the first ever 16 OB was the earlier "1965 16 OB1" which would have have been built by Don Aronow himself while he still owned and ran Donzi.

Why would former Board member Lou Benz create a lie about the 1965 16 OB boat?

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 07:39 PM
Lou Benz had an awful lot of detailed info to be blatantly making chit up. :(

Now if that ridiculous German who owns the 1965 now would get off his arse and cooperate we would have a picture of the grease marking under the deck. :germany:

mattyboy
11-26-2013, 08:10 PM
Greg

I am sure there a a few 65 OB's seano's now woobs' 16 was one what I think is someone else made them that way Brownie said he never remembered one being made at the factory until the Chisholms were running things. Could an unrigged 16 have been sent somewhere to someone to be cut into a OB sure, they sent out quite a few unrigged just like the 2 OB 18s to OMC. not sure on the benz story but remember a lot of urban legend surrounds Don and people try to always link their boats or stories directly to him.

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 09:19 PM
I'm still unsure. I agree with you that if the conversion to OB power was done WITHOUT factory knowledge than the hull is disqualified, but from the comments below that doesn't seem to be the case. Even Brownie is making reference to an OMC Stacker on the backer, and Lou is saying that there was a second 1965 16 OB that was used by Merc at Lake X. Also, why would there have been a grease mark "16 OB1" under the deck?

Originally Posted by lou; 12-02-01
There were several '65 and '66 outboards sold. I have a "stinkin" 1965 16 outboard that was sold to Gerry Walin by Donzi. He used it as a test mule for the Starflite IV and it still has the motor on it. I know of another 1965 "stinkin" 16 outboard that was used by Mercury for testing in 1966 on Lake X and was destroyed while in tow in Lakeland Florida. Donzi also built another "stinkin" 1965 19 foot outboard and it was built for the great Jerry Langer who drove it to first place at the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial.




Originally Posted by ALLAN BROWN; 7-24-2008
Several years ago, someone found an outboard Donzi near Seattle, Wa. with a 4 cylinder, stacked OMC engine. Anyone have any knowledge of that? Thanks.

Originally Posted by BUIZILLA; 2-02-2011
The gentlemen I just bought my 16 OB from, Fred Darwick, used to race a 16 IO, in fact he and his wife raced it in '65 in the 9 hour Marathon. Poodle, me, and Cliff have all seen the pic's and printed story line recently.... memory tells me he did say there WAS a 16 OB in there somewhere, maybe a converted IO to OB, it did have something else for awhile for power until it got the 135 however.....i'll ask him this week to jog both our memories..

Greg Guimond
11-26-2013, 09:28 PM
Lou Benz also said that the same German dude from overseas who bought the 1965 Donzi 16 OB hull from him also bought his Magnum Missile at the same time and had both hulls picked up on the same day.

Here is a picture that Lou sent me of the 1965 16 being picked up on moving day from Dr Lou Benz's house. Take a close look at the dash area and the cutouts.

mattyboy
11-27-2013, 08:07 AM
Greg

I have seen that pic and it looks like a heavily modified ski sporter, again I have no doubt that someone took an older weaker under powered 1965 eaton interceptor 16 and modified it to be an OB or that a hot OB motor used on other speedboats wound up on it at one time. This could also be strictly unrecorded race operations as we have seen OB version of the 19 that were only seen on the race circuit . All the sales documentation that I have seen from 1965 Brownie was kind of hands on for all orders. If this is a raceboat it has it own provenance but it still can't be considered a production boat .

This story as some gaps and some glaring issues like the modern day sweet 16 showing up as a picture, the story on hull 452 looks to have a solid connection to from beginning to end I wish this story had the same.


and yes they did some wild things at the factory the 16 military bombs always come to mind.

with this thread and woobs' thread on his 16 it really solidified the fact in my mind that Don was the sole force behind donzi for a very short time . If he was working on the 35 race boat to take with him and his racing time his hands on in the production would have been some what limited. Brownie tells the story of the first production 16 at the jax show in nov of 64 by nov of 65 Teleflex under Chisholm mngmt is in place. Don is still around as a consultant and his named is tied to donzi as his new race boats are magnum donzi.

Greg Guimond
11-27-2013, 08:58 AM
Maybe Bert can find out some more info on the purported 1965 "16 OB1" from Tim Breuil? I will also try and contact Charlie Strang, former President of OMC. He is now 92 years old. Brownie probably knows him.

mattyboy
11-27-2013, 09:52 AM
Greg you have me confused the Breuil's were involved with the 67 boat not the 65 boat.
Charlie has a connection to donzi thru Jim Wynne and their involvment in developing the I/O together , while doing an end run around Karl Charlie's employer at the time.

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/pat/isd.htm

Greg Guimond
11-27-2013, 10:21 AM
Greg you have me confused the Breuil's were involved with the 67 boat not the 65 boat.
Charlie has a connection to donzi thru Jim Wynne and their involvment in developing the I/O together , while doing an end run around Karl Charlie's employer at the time.

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/pat/isd.htm

Yes, I realize that you are focused on the 1967 16 OB Hull #452 but if Tim B knows about that one he might have a recollection as to what might have gone on in 1965. It is only two years earlier, he might have some 1965 bread crumbs. Now that it is cold outside, I'm not quite ready to hang up my hat on researching the 1965 as a factory OB. Ask Tim B, maybe he knows or knows peeps.


I will ask Charlie Strang and yes he was closely connected with Jim Wynne back in the day. There are not many of these guys alive still so the clock is ticking :D

olredalert
11-27-2013, 11:04 AM
----Help me OB1 Kanobi.........Bill S

woobs
11-27-2013, 04:46 PM
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/pat/isd.htm This is a great story! I had no idea.....

Greg Guimond
11-27-2013, 05:15 PM
Also remember that Mr. Strang was HEAVILY behind the OMC race program back in the late 1960's and 1970's when there was a full fledged war being waged in OB racing between Mercury and OMC. Hence the race proven OMC "Super Strangler" V4 monster that Charlie named. The Super Strangler was what was on the back of the Donzi 1965 OB when Dr. Lou Benz bought it in 1976 in Miami.

bertsboat
11-27-2013, 06:05 PM
maybe the guy is talking about a first production boat, as u say mine was strictly a test, and donzi didnt like the results, it was too heavy , slow out of the hole, later on they put one out , laid up as a OB and maybe some other changes ,


I believe my dad was still at Breuil Boat Co, and it was either Don and Brownie or one of the two at donzi, ask Brownie, I got it for Chistmas, but I cant find any pics, if I do , u will be the first to know.






Hi Tim,
There is a lot of chatter on your red Donzi on www.donzi.net. There was a guy named Lou Benz who claims he had a factory made 16 OB and he claims it’s the first one. I am with you that the one that you had was the very first. They claim your hull number was #452 labeled in the Donzi records ad experimental. Tat hull has red and white. It has to be your boat. Did your Dad get it direct from Don or was Don already out of there and on to Magnum.
That would have been the time period that you got the boat. What years did your Dad work at Magnum? Did he ever work at Donzi? Was Brownie around that early? Who do you think cut the transom? Was Curtis (the old guy that built our race boat) around then? How long did Don A have your boat before selling it to Jim?
Just a few questions they are asking.
If you find a picture you will be a hero over there.
Also, I am sure they would love for you to tune in. I am sure they would love to hear about Jim Breuil. Most know the name but most don’t know the true connection.
Thanks

Regards,

Bert Harris
Sales


Subject: Re: Donzi outboard

u know , those old boat can last forever,!


-----Original Message-----
From: Bert Harris
Sent: Tue, Nov 26, 2013 1:58 pm
Subject: RE: Donzi outboard
The guys at the Donzi site say they have located the owner of your old boat. It was hull number 452 experimental hull. Funny.

Regards,

Bert Harris
Sales
Subject: Re: Donzi outboard

It was the first prototype , they took the baby 16, yes with wrap bench, and single bucket, cut out the stern, and glassed in a transom , still had the engine hatch hole, they just got a Tonto cover made, The boat was too heavy for the motors back then , I think there was only 1oo or 125 hp, so the shelved the plan, that's where Dad came into the picture, got a deal and the rest is history, I started with a 65 hp, than went to the125.hp,

maybe I was 13 , so about 1966, and it was red and white, red hull,
Happy Thanksgiving

-----Original Message-----
From: Bert Harris
To: 'Tim'
Sent: Tue, Nov 26, 2013 1:27 pm
Subject: RE: Donzi outboard
It was a 16, not an 16 2 & 3 was it. Had the wrap around interior with a single bucket. You think it was the prototype?

Regards,

Bert Harris

From: Tim
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:09 PM
To: Bert Harris
Subject: RE: Donzi outboard

Actually the boat was red over white. And. I think Dad was still at Breuil Boats. I was probability 14-16 at the time.


Bert Harris wrote:
It was light blue was it not? You owned it or you were just using it. Your Dad was working there with the Brown Hound at the time, correct?

Regards,

Bert
Subject: Re: Donzi outboard

hey bro, my boat was the first prototype o/b, they just put a transum in it and hung a motor on it, they didnt like the performance , so it didnt go forward, It may of very well been one of don projects, not sure of dates,


hope all is well
tim



Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 9:42 am
Subject: Donzi outboard
oat was
Hey Tim, hope all is well. What year was it you had that outboard Donzi? Was it before 1969? I think it was around 67 or so and was it made by Aranow?
What else is up?

Regards,

Bert

Greg Guimond
11-27-2013, 06:28 PM
Forget about the history and forensics for a minute, can you imagine being 15 year old Tim Breuil in 1967 and getting the Donzi "Experimental 16 OB" #452 for a Christmas present from your Dad, big Jim Jr !!

woobs
11-27-2013, 06:47 PM
Oh, now it's all coming together....

Tims ob (the first) is red/white and mine is the second ob! All blue... made during the same time frame. No clamshells as the ob didn't need em, and the PVC engine hatch with the supports running the wrong direction was added later. expirimental so, no documentation. yeah, that's it.

It must be that my all blue 16 is the 2nd ob prototype.... It just went up for sale at $20,000 USD cash money!!!
:nilly::nilly:

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!