MAJOR serious advice needed.......

[fogducker III]

Gentlemen, I think I am screwed here..........in preperation for the engine install I started cleaning up the outdrive, transom and gimbal area.....while cleaning the gimbal bell housing I find this.....:nilly:

Now I really can not figure out how it happened or what has actually caused it, is it the paint cracking? Hard to tell....it is not from being trimmed up too high, there are no other marks where it would have "pryed" against anything, is it from a "strike" ? Again, no other signs of that....the "crack" does not extend anywhere near the through pin which holds the housing to the gimbal ring....the bellows inside are intact and dry and I can not see any other damage anywhere....:confused:

Ideas on what this is and perhaps what caused it? Second and most important.....do I replace it or "hope" it is cosmetic???

We all know how much of a PITA it is to swap out as well as the $$ factor.....yes I know, "Better safe then sorry" but this is major $$$ that I can not really afford, even if I can find a suitable replacement, and I am thinking that this area of the housing does not really have any stress placed on it does it???

Your knowledgable input will be gratefully received...Jeremy

[yeller]

Are going to sand off the paint to confirm if it is actually cracked.

If it is cracked, maybe you could get it welded fairly cheap?

[fogducker III]

Are going to sand off the paint to confirm if it is actually cracked.

If it is cracked, maybe you could get it welded fairly cheap?

I think I will have to take it off no matter what....:frown:

I thought it was a PITA to weld cast?

Son of a ........!!!!

Just what I didn't need right now.....:bonk:

Very confusing as to what caused it...?

[yeller]

I thought it was a PITA to weld cast?
I don't know. Not a welder. I do know I had the aluminum log manifolds on my 16 welded inside and out and it held up.

[DonziJon]

Doesn't look good. My "Guess" is that the universal joint struck the inside of the housing and tried to punch a hole through it. May have occurred while the drive was in a very razed position.. as when slowly piloting through very shallow water at idle speed. OR..the engine was started up without first lowering the drive. Everybody does it sooner or later.

A sloppy gimbal bearing may have allowed this to happen combined with a sloppy universal joint. Look for impact marks or dents inside the housing. :bonk:

[DonziJon]

If that crack was caused by some defect in the casting, corrosion getting in the crack may be expanding the crack. If thats the case, welding is only a bandaid because you can never clean out the crack enough to prevent the corrosion from continuing.

[gcarter]

Removing the bell housing may be something you do want to do, it's not all that difficult to do.
And as far as welding goes, I had my gimbal housing welded where it had corroded through.
Welding is by far the cheapest way to fix this. Another bell housing is at least $400.00. My welding job cost about $80.00.
Kind of a no brainer.

[Carl C]

It's cast IRON that can't be welded. (at least not easily) I wonder how much stress is on this particular spot? Just maybe you could drill small holes at the ends of each crack to stop them from spreading, grind a groove in the cracks and fill with JB weld? I don't know, just a thought. I don't know how much stress this part takes or if safety would be compromised.

[fogducker III]

Doesn't look good. My "Guess" is that the universal joint struck the inside of the housing and tried to punch a hole through it. May have occurred while the drive was in a very razed position.. as when slowly piloting through very shallow water at idle speed. OR..the engine was started up without first lowering the drive. Everybody does it sooner or later.

A sloppy gimbal bearing may have allowed this to happen combined with a sloppy universal joint. Look for impact marks or dents inside the housing. :bonk:


At first I thought that was a possibility, the rubber bellows are in 100% perfect shape, it would be hard to crack metal without marking rubber........:confused: Gimbal bearing is A-1 condition as well....

Plus, the crack does not line up with the U-joints.....VERY strange place for a crack....:boggled:

[fogducker III]

If that crack was caused by some defect in the casting, corrosion getting in the crack may be expanding the crack. If thats the case, welding is only a bandaid because you can never clean out the crack enough to prevent the corrosion from continuing.


Casting defect is a good possibility......I agree it could not be fixed 100%......:frown:

[fogducker III]

Removing the bell housing may be something you do want to do, it's not all that difficult to do.
And as far as welding goes, I had my gimbal housing welded where it had corroded through.
Welding is by far the cheapest way to fix this. Another bell housing is at least $400.00. My welding job cost about $80.00.
Kind of a no brainer.

Good to know George, I always thought welding cast aluminium was a no-no......shows what I know....:bonk:

As far as removing the housing, might be simple for some.....I don't even have the right socket to remove the shift cable retaining nut, let alone the twelve point "tool" needed for the housing to gimbal ring pins....:boggled:

Then there is the stupid threaded plastic insert for the water tube that always breaks when removed and on top of that, trying to get the light metal ring that retains the bellows off without damaging it......:nilly:


I realize it will have to come off, I was just hoping for some devine intervention.......:lightning:yes:

[fogducker III]

It's cast IRON that can't be welded. (at least not easily) I wonder how much stress is on this particular spot? Just maybe you could drill small holes at the ends of each crack to stop them from spreading, grind a groove in the cracks and fill with JB weld? I don't know, just a thought. I don't know how much stress this part takes or if safety would be compromised.


Good points Carl....:yes:

I knew it was cast something... I agree, I am not sure what stress is on that area either, but what is puzzling me is what caused it....:confused:

Bottom line, it has to come off to at least find out how bad it is and also to either replace or repair.......there goes my weekend....:wrench::party:

[gcarter]

As far as removing the housing, might be simple for some.....I don't even have the right socket to remove the shift cable retaining nut, let alone the twelve point "tool" needed for the housing to gimbal ring pins....:boggled:

Then there is the stupid threaded plastic insert for the water tube that always breaks when removed and on top of that, trying to get the light metal ring that retains the bellows off without damaging it......:nilly:


You can use an Allen hex insert type of tool to remove the pins, that's what I use. And I assure you they're torqued correctly.
The plastic pieces, the hose, and the thin metal ring need to be replaced anyway. None of this stuff is expensive. Of course I did away w/my hose all together!!!
:wink:

[fogducker III]

You can use an Allen hex insert type of tool to remove the pins, that's what I use. And I assure you they're torqued correctly.
The plastic pieces, the hose, and the thin metal ring need to be replaced anyway. None of this stuff is expensive. Of course I did away w/my hose all together!!!
:wink:

Points taken, living in the "boonies" it is not the expense of items, just finding them....:boggled:

As you are well aware, it is just the frustration of these additional problems that "pop" up that is annoying.........onward....:yes::wrench:

[mphatc]

If this was caused by something mechanical, there will be a scar inside. If it is a crack or fracture, the entire crack needs to be removed and the material rebuilt by welding, then reshaped, and painted.

to remove the crack, a die grinder and a carbide burr. Welding should be done while the whole piece is fully heated . .

this won't be to expensive to repair . . . and it gives you something to do on the boat during the off season.

Mario L.

[mrfixxall]

Its Phucked!! cast alunimum,, looks like a ujoint exploaded @ one time..

replace the whole housing with a hp one or you may end up like this and they brake too..

http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/bravoConversion/Tony_Adams_384[1].jpg

[fogducker III]

Its Phucked!! cast alunimum,, looks like a ujoint exploaded @ one time..

replace the whole housing with a hp one or you may end up like this and they brake too..

http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/bravoConversion/Tony_Adams_384[1].jpg


You sure are a subtle a-hole aren't you..........:boggled:

Once I get it apart should be able to see if the damage was from the inside....

Got a spare gimbal bell housing kicking around or can this be welded..???

PS. The ex is NOT still covered on my dental.....:cool:

[fogducker III]

If this was caused by something mechanical, there will be a scar inside. If it is a crack or fracture, the entire crack needs to be removed and the material rebuilt by welding, then reshaped, and painted.

to remove the crack, a die grinder and a carbide burr. Welding should be done while the whole piece is fully heated . .

this won't be to expensive to repair . . . and it gives you something to do on the boat during the off season.

Mario L.


Thank you Mario, good info and right to the point.....

PS. Do you think I normally hibernate during the winter..??:wink:

[DonziJon]

As George would say...ebay is your friend. :nilly: :nilly: DJ

[MOP]

It is aluminum and easily welded, I have never seen this before, But doubt that is was anything mechanical, a casting flaw that got salt water in it which swelled from corrosion. It from seeing many is not a structural area as you will once off, you will need to buy the odd sized Merc tool to get the pins out. When you get it out don't take to just any shop, inquire around for one with an X Navy welder, they are the best when it comes to non ferrous.

Phil

[fogducker III]

It is aluminum and easily welded, I have never seen this before, But doubt that is was anything mechanical, a casting flaw that got salt water in it which swelled from corrosion. It from seeing many is not a structural area as you will once off, you will need to buy the odd sized Merc tool to get the pins out. When you get it out don't take to just any shop, inquire around for one with an X Navy welder, they are the best when it comes to non ferrous.

Phil


Your right Phil, I have never seen anything like it.......couldn't have been salt, it was afresh water boat until a couple of months ago and has only been in the salt chuck a couple of times....I should be able to see what is there once I get it off......

My younger brother is welder for the Coast Guard/Fisheries and welds aluminium, stainless, titanium etc all day long so he should be able to do it up right....:wink:

[Carl C]

Your right Phil, I have never seen anything like it.......couldn't have been salt, it was afresh water boat until a couple of months ago and has only been in the salt chuck a couple of times....I should be able to see what is there once I get it off......

My younger brother is welder for the Coast Guard/Fisheries and welds aluminium, stainless, titanium etc all day long so he should be able to do it up right....:wink:

It should be an easy weld job.

[Dr. David Fleming]

You sound like a cast iron guy in an aluminum world. The one great advantage to aluminum besides its weight is that it is consumately repairable by welding. Aluminum engine blocks are regularly repaired by welding when a cast iron block is just scrap. There are welders though that can weld cast iron - its just a lot of trouble for the cost.

I own several famous racing outboard motors most of which have holes punched in them by connecting rods that let go - all repaired and racable again by welding.

You need to hook up with a good welder - and you could probably repair your part on your boat. Usually they a moldable carbon putty or use wet towels to act as heat sinks and keep the heat out of the plastic etc.

I think Smokey Yunick did a section in his book about welding aluminum blocks and cylinder heads to modify and re-engineer them.

OMC custom cast a set of hyperutectic pistons for me for a 1928 racing engine - they cast four as part of their experimental department. One got away in the lathe and was cracked - piston engineers just had me inert gas weld it.

[fogducker III]

You sound like a cast iron guy in an aluminum world. The one great advantage to aluminum besides its weight is that it is consumately repairable by welding. Aluminum engine blocks are regularly repaired by welding when a cast iron block is just scrap. There are welders though that can weld cast iron - its just a lot of trouble for the cost.

I own several famous racing outboard motors most of which have holes punched in them by connecting rods that let go - all repaired and racable again by welding.

You need to hook up with a good welder - and you could probably repair your part on your boat. Usually they a moldable carbon putty or use wet towels to act as heat sinks and keep the heat out of the plastic etc.

I think Smokey Yunick did a section in his book about welding aluminum blocks and cylinder heads to modify and re-engineer them.

OMC custom cast a set of hyperutectic pistons for me for a 1928 racing engine - they cast four as part of their experimental department. One got away in the lathe and was cracked - piston engineers just had me inert gas weld it.

If it requires welding to fix it, as I said, my younger brother welds various metals for marine applications for a living so I have no concerns there.

My initial issue was HOW the damage occured and I "thought" the housing was cast iron which is difficult and expensive/time consuming to weld. Now I know it is aluminium I am confident, having received info from various board members, that I will be up and running shortly....:wink::crossfing:

[gcarter]

Its Phucked!! cast alunimum,, looks like a ujoint exploaded @ one time..

replace the whole housing with a hp one or you may end up like this and they brake too..

http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/bravoConversion/Tony_Adams_384[1].jpg

I remember reading the story on this one....
The owner hit a log, ripped the ring apart, along w/the chunk out of the housing....and of course, the bell housing.
He actually made it back to shore because the drive shaft was still in the bearing and there wasn't that big of a hole in the transom.
Could have been a lot worse.

[mrfixxall]

You sure are a subtle a-hole aren't you..........:boggled:

Once I get it apart should be able to see if the damage was from the inside....

Got a spare gimbal bell housing kicking around or can this be welded..???

PS. The ex is NOT still covered on my dental.....:cool:


ok ill just keep the two that i have :boggled:

[fogducker III]

Good morning gents.....so I got the hinge pin tool yesterday, one side came off no problem, the other side, after two hours of heat and penatrating oil and a whole bunch of cursing, finally broke free.....

Buiz and others were right, the last owner had the U-joints go south and fixed them and replaced the bellows etc but the bell housing assembly, that looks like a grenade went off inside it, was half-azzed fixed with JB Weld and replaced.....!!

So basically, I need a replacement bell housing assembly and a set of hinge pins, preferably the pins for NO trim sending units.....any leads on a fair priced used one would be ideal, at this point I am a little stretched $$ wise on the build......http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/smilies/cry.gif

[mrfixxall]

if you are going to replace it try and find a hp one..

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/swap-shop/230119-hp-gimbal-transom-plate.html

[fogducker III]

if you are going to replace it try and find a hp one..

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/swap-shop/230119-hp-gimbal-transom-plate.html

At this point all I need is the bell housing assembly, everything else is in A-1 condition....:wink::crossfing:

[mrfixxall]

At this point all I need is the bell housing assembly, everything else is in A-1 condition....:wink::crossfing:

i got you ,,just the bell assembly and the pins and newer style shift cable while it's apart..

[fogducker III]

i got you ,,just the bell assembly and the pins and newer style shift cable while it's apart..

It is surprising but when the U-joint went they replaced everything, all new U-joints, bellows, gimbal bearing, shift cable (new style) shift boot, even water hose.....but they Mickey Moused the housing...go figure...?

[mike o]

It is surprising but when the U-joint went they replaced everything, all new U-joints, bellows, gimbal bearing, shift cable (new style) shift boot, even water hose.....but they Mickey Moused the housing...go figure...? Well, depending on the quality of the alloys in the alum, your Bro might to be able to weld it.........:crossfing::crossfing::crossfing:

[mrfixxall]

It is surprising but when the U-joint went they replaced everything, all new U-joints, bellows, gimbal bearing, shift cable (new style) shift boot, even water hose.....but they Mickey Moused the housing...go figure...?

foe what merc gets for the parts im sure the exra 800.00 would have broke his bank account :) also im sure the insurance was not involved..

[VetteLT193]

That doesn't look like a high stress area... in fact, if I am seeing the pictures right, it's not a stress area at all. it's pretty much a protective cover up there, probably more for looks than anything.

[fogducker III]

That doesn't look like a high stress area... in fact, if I am seeing the pictures right, it's not a stress area at all. it's pretty much a protective cover up there, probably more for looks than anything.

I agree, where the crack is on the outside, but inside is a different story, pieces of the U-joints were slamming around in there and did a fair bit of damage, for the time, effort and $$$ better to just replace it.

The gimbal ring fastens directly to an area that is suspect and I don't think welding would be the way to go....:frown:

[VetteLT193]

I agree, where the crack is on the outside, but inside is a different story, pieces of the U-joints were slamming around in there and did a fair bit of damage, for the time, effort and $$$ better to just replace it.

The gimbal ring fastens directly to an area that is suspect and I don't think welding would be the way to go....:frown:

Gotcha... that stinks :(