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View Full Version : Pro Comp heads--my opinion



flying tomato
10-06-2010, 10:27 PM
The add on ebay looks very good and it convinced me to give them a shot. Here is what I experienced:
1. Upon bolting up one of the heads (right out of the box), 2 of the rocker arm studs pulled the treads right out of the head. I called up the company in TN and the rep says send them back and they will repair or replace. They put in an insert and sent them back. (2 wk turnaround)
2. The heads require "customizing" of the guide plates. They have to be bent to line them up with the valves. No big deal really. Takes some time. They also require non-stock length pushrods. Not that of a big deal.
3. Finally get them on the motor, and am very impressed with performance. Gained 10 mph!!!
4. Exhaust valve broke and cratered the motor at approx 70 hrs on the heads.
5. Upon removing the non-broken head, I found that the water passage was severely corroded, and would have become another problem very shortly. It was about to leak into the combustion chamber!!

These heads were 11 months old!!!!
Note: Recently installed a 100 shot of nitrous. Hit the button 5 times for no more than 5 seconds at a time. Nitrous sys had timing retard, and progressive controller.

Anothe note: Bought heads assembled and the salesman at skip white assured me that I did not have to replace the ex valves with inconel.

flying tomato
10-06-2010, 10:47 PM
this is a pic of the severe corrosion at one of the water passages. Again, heads only 11 months old, and well cared for.

Also, if you look at the 2nd pic, you can see that the Fel Pro gasket combustion ring does not fit correctly on the head. The ring was inside of the chamber. Like this on a few cylinders.

I wish someone would have posted a thread like this when I was in the deciding stage of building my motor. I made about a 3000.00 mistake with Pro Comp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

mrfixxall
10-06-2010, 11:24 PM
just my opinion,

you used the wrong head gasket's, the head gaskets you used had a steel wire ring in them and your suppose to have the block and heads o-ringed to use those kind of gaskets..i can see the ring around the combustion chamber and that's another reason i say their wrong,,their are different diameter o-ring gaskets to use also..felpro states this when ordering here is a example, read the fine print @ the bottom..http://www.jegs.com/i/Fel+Pro/375/1017-1/10002/-1

also i would like to see the piston,i also work on race cars and have up to 4 stages of nos on one of the cars i work on, those valves are pretty white which indicates lots of nos and or the motor was running lien which would create allot of heat and could bend the valve and the piston may have came in contact to it and broke off..was it cylinder #8?

looks like the cylinder heads were not sitting down on the block all the way and that's when electrolysis maw have caused the damage to the heads..

BUIZILLA
10-07-2010, 07:27 AM
fixx is pretty much dead on the money..

ProComps are from China, their metallurgy mixing has always been suspect

besides.. have you EVER seen a race car in China?

gcarter
10-07-2010, 07:47 AM
Not to mention mixing metals in an electrolite......
Maybe after all the gasketing problems are taken care of, a closed cooling system would be useful.

mrfixxall
10-07-2010, 09:52 AM
Not to mention mixing metals in an electrolite......
Maybe after all the gasketing problems are taken care of, a closed cooling system would be useful.


+1 on the closed cooling when running in salt water.

flying tomato
10-07-2010, 11:32 AM
I used the gasket that was recommended by the sales rep at Skip White. Purchased together.

Valve broke on #1. Only 1 piston has "very minor" detonation on one of the edges. But, I agree with you on the valves looking white. The nitrous probably was the killer. I am new at this---I did not know that you could kill a motor so quickly on the juice. The first time I pulled a plug was 10 minutes before the valve broke. The plug looked lean and I was actually heading back to the ramp to put the boat on the trailer when it broke.

I guess this is what you call trial and error. Mostly error.

Non Flying Tomato

BUIZILLA
10-07-2010, 12:37 PM
Skip White in Kingsport, TN ??

flying tomato
10-07-2010, 01:42 PM
yes, skip in TN

handfulz28
10-07-2010, 08:10 PM
Gained 10 mph!!!

Um...is that with or without the N2O?

mrfixxall
10-07-2010, 08:39 PM
Um...is that with or without the N2O?


he gained 5 with the n2o,,10 with the head,cam and exhaust swap.. =15 mph

mrfixxall
10-10-2010, 09:01 PM
How about that pic of the damaged hole? :)

Donzi_Dude
10-22-2010, 02:58 PM
he told you to use the rite gaskets, what you failed to do was the proper machinework.


nothing to do with the procomp heads that make great power for the money.

tmdog
10-23-2010, 07:46 AM
Most of the racing folks I've talked to call them "ProCrap".

Donzi_Dude
10-24-2010, 06:11 AM
Most of the racing folks I've talked to call them "ProCrap".

that may be true but they are prolly the win @ any cost and bigger is better kind of peeps. let me ask how many of these racers are BOAT racers?

their performance falls solidly ahead of edlebrocks for boat applications. do the math one time. the fact he gained 10MPH with buggered up heads over XXX is the proof they perform.


:wink:

mrfixxall
10-24-2010, 01:50 PM
that may be true but they are prolly the win @ any cost and bigger is better kind of peeps. let me ask how many of these racers are BOAT racers?

their performance falls solidly ahead of edlebrocks for boat applications. do the math one time. the fact he gained 10MPH with buggered up heads over XXX is the proof they perform.


:wink:

you have to know the facts before the truth behind the matter, he started out with a 496 with peanut port heads and ??? cam ??? and stock exhaust..
He then asked why his boat only did 60mph,,everybody gave him their opinion on why he wasn't getting the performance he should be..
I shot him a few emails on some performance mods and he chose the pro comp heads and exhaust he is using,,i gave him a cam grind and some other technical help and that's when he picked up the 10 mph..i did not know he would he using the boat in salt water which destroyed the heads along with the help of the wrong head gaskets or the failed to do machining..

he knows he made a mistake now please let it lie,,this poor guy has had this engine apart several times and i hope its rite this time or we may have a new name for the boat!!

The burnt tomato :)

Donzi_Dude
10-24-2010, 03:00 PM
oh!

ok!
best of luck with him getting it sorted! maybe he comes back with a 20MPH gain!

again i dont know the history but a bravo and n2o?

Donziweasel
10-24-2010, 03:35 PM
What's wrong with a Bravo and N2O? A Bravo can handle way more power than he is throwing at it.

mrfixxall
10-24-2010, 07:35 PM
What's wrong with a Bravo and N2O? A Bravo can handle way more power than he is throwing at it.

john, i believe he is running a trs..

Donzi_Dude
10-25-2010, 03:18 PM
What's wrong with a Bravo and N2O? A Bravo can handle way more power than he is throwing at it.



apparently your not familiar with the shock loads induced by the juice.


:shocking:

MOP
10-25-2010, 07:50 PM
True N20 is like snapping on a light switch it is an hammer blow, I would worry a lot less about a TRS then a Bravo holding power.

Donzi_Dude
10-26-2010, 05:58 AM
True N20 is like snapping on a light switch it is an hammer blow, I would worry a lot less about a TRS then a Bravo holding power.


TRS is not bulletproof by anymeans. i have no experiance with n2o with either but it seems the fluid/rotating mass does give it the edge but for how long before the clutch plates give out?

the bravo is in trouble from the start. if you dont tear the coupler out of it the top cap/gear will lift causing catastrophic failure. not sure about the newer XR stuff.


if you think that 10 seconds of fame will get you any place but white and broken exhaust valves in a boat race. well it wasnt much of a race to begin with.

good call MOP!

to the OP, you need more fuel if you continue to use the juice. you may have to upgrade your entire fuel system to get that flow.

Donziweasel
10-26-2010, 08:44 AM
apparently your not familiar with the shock loads induced by the juice.

Apparently I am. I have run it on some cars and currently have a wet system on my modified M1000 snowmobile. I have even been in a Checkmate with it.

I run a stock clutch, stock crank, and stock heads on my snowmobile. My sled came with 165 hp. My mods have it around 192. The shot bumps it to 230. Stock weight was around 520 pounds. I have it down to around 480. Four years old and runs perfect. The point is, although a boat is not a snowmobile, stock components are fine.

There are some great misconceptions about NOS that mainly come from movies.

1. There is no "hiss" when you hit the button. This always cracks me up in the movies.

2. The power comes on smooth and not all power is achieved in 1/100 of a second like the movies. It is not a hammer blow by any means. There is not a whole lot of "shock" to it.

I think a Bravo would be fine with NOS, just depends alot on the setup. How big is the shot, wet or dry shot, etc..... Same with the TRS.

Carl C
10-27-2010, 12:35 PM
There are some great misconceptions about NOS that mainly come from movies.


I always get a kick out of it when the tanks explode.:party:

mrfixxall
10-27-2010, 01:44 PM
When i had it, it came on hard and fast..If i wasnt hanging on to the steering wheel so tight the boat would have made a turn on me..i took it off because it was too crazy of a ride with the cable steering..

now imagine this if it were a boat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYAI0rwRsbU&feature=related

gcarter
10-27-2010, 02:24 PM
Give me a big lazy engine anyday!!!!!!!
I'd choose big inches/low BMEP every time.:yes:

I've no experienc w/it.
So, why couldn't it be turned off?

Donziweasel
10-27-2010, 03:30 PM
So, why couldn't it be turned off?

Good point. Hell, some days riding my sled, I don't even use it. It also has a disadvantage for a snowmobile, my bottle is steel, not the new carbon fiber ones. It adds wieght and performance sleds are VERY weight sensitive. Many days I have no need to hit the shiney red button. My snomo shot is supposed to be around 50hp, but in reality I think it is about 38-40.

I also had it on a 1987 Volkswagon GTI 16V. Came on nice and smooth. This was WAY before the whole Fast and Furious thing.


When i had it, it came on hard and fast..

Mike, what engine, and how big a shot? Wet or dry? Just curious. I guess with a big enough shot, things could happen real quick. I wouldn't think a 75-100 hp shot on an engine already north of 500hp would be that violent.

The Checkmate is rode I was smooth as well. More like increasing the throttle than a violent hammer blow.

Carl C
10-27-2010, 03:51 PM
That's why they make multi-stage systems if you are looking for a major power increase. I have a small engine set-up on my Banshee too. It adds about 50 hp. I have a plate system on the '82 Mustang. I also had a wet multi point N20 system on a 200 hp carbureted Black Max Hydrostream. I never hurt an engine with nitrous but I've never taken it to exremes either. BTW, nitrous oxide cannot explode because it is nonflammable. It is an oxidizer. It can cause explosions in the intake manifold if not set up and used correctly but the tanks will not explode.

Dustball
10-28-2010, 12:17 AM
And you can put an end to a great white in a pinch

mrfixxall
10-28-2010, 10:47 AM
the only time nos comes on easy is if its under 75 hp and when its fogging the air box and the engine in sucking it i through its carb or plenum..if its under the carb or injected its on now! i had it down to 100 hp shot in my boat and the boat would twist when i hit the button,was to dangerous in my narrow boat so i removed it..

in the race car it comes on as soon as the trans brake is released and then followed by 3 more stages with the race pac timers..

The Hedgehog
10-28-2010, 11:19 PM
I thought that you were supposed to run the nitrous into the air conditioner vents. You mean that it can make more hp?:nilly:

Planetwarmer
10-29-2010, 12:11 AM
I thought that you were supposed to run the nitrous into the air conditioner vents. You mean that it can make more hp?:nilly:
It just makes the race a whole lot funnier!:kingme:

Dustball
10-29-2010, 10:37 PM
Back to the issue I have ported five or so sets of procomp heads. Ported the do flow well about 390cfm but what they lack compared to quality heads is the quality. The deck is thin, you end up grinding off half the helicoil for the studs so a girdle is absolutely mandatory with a mechanical roller. I have not seen any of the numbers of the engines my porting of these heads has ended up on but based on past experience they should do well but I don't know if they will live. I have seen lots of other procomp parts which are all copies of the real thing. Timing sets that are tight, loose etc... No quality control. They make steel rockers that are copies of the comp cams rockers they look good in a box till you pick them up and take a close look. Who knows what the metal is. I'm not knocking overseas parts at all. Some great stuff comes out of the UK AUS AGT and Japan. China is a mixed bag at the moment some great stuff comes from there. The thing is most of the good stuff has their R&D and QC located in the states and else where. Its outsourcing at its finest. Also don't think that some of the made in the USA companies are perfect either. There is cheap labor in SOCAL if you know what I mean. In the end a monkey can run some of the machines parts are produced on. It matters whether the company keeps its tools sharp and invests in quality machines and materials.

joseph m. hahnl
10-30-2010, 09:31 PM
In the end a monkey can run some of the machines parts are produced on. It matters whether the company keeps its tools sharp and invests in quality machines and materials.

I don't think a Monkey can operate this machine:wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o&p=6130724BB12DD476&index=14&playnext=2

Eplebnista
10-30-2010, 10:37 PM
That's a stunning display of technical virtuosity but other than the fact that it is totally cool, I don't see the point. Lost foam casting is pretty trick too and uses up a lot less material and tooling.

Quality control is still quality control. China is the wild west right now. Some stuff is world class, some is total junk and a lot of stuff is somebody's copy of somebody else's copy the hot product du jour.

I am just glad they don't build commercial airliners. If they do, I would either want to be able to know which ones or not know at all. Imagine asking yourself at 45,000 feet - "Is Boeing spelled with one N or two?"

Dustball
10-30-2010, 10:51 PM
I don't think a Monkey can operate this machine:wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o&p=6130724BB12DD476&index=14&playnext=2

Thats my point exactly. With minimal training a person can set up the tools that machine uses in the chucks and press go. Today a program can be created say in the US emailed across the planet where electricity and rent is cheap and the part produced. I have worked in a CNC shop you don't need a college degree to operate the machine. I do know people with skill that operate these things and program them. The goal of manufacturing is to cut cost. The most economical approach is to take the human element out as much as possible hence CNC. So a good company to buy parts from can buy good equipment and materials hire good engineering and save on things like power labor and other production costs. There is a difference between an American company trying to produce cheap parts and a Chinese company trying to make money. Its no secret that we in the US have been losing our position in the world. I was talking to a representative of a UK company that makes very trick chassis setup equipment. They do their design work in the UK and manufacture in the US because the manufacturing costs are so much cheaper. We are the new China for high end production for Europe!

Dustball
10-30-2010, 10:59 PM
That's a stunning display of technical virtuosity but other than the fact that it is totally cool, I don't see the point. Lost foam casting is pretty trick too and uses up a lot less material and tooling.

Quality control is still quality control. China is the wild west right now. Some stuff is world class, some is total junk and a lot of stuff is somebody's copy of somebody else's copy the hot product du jour.

I am just glad they don't build commercial airliners. If they do, I would either want to be able to know which ones or not know at all. Imagine asking yourself at 45,000 feet - "Is Boeing spelled with one N or two?"

The point of some of the billet blocks being produced is the freedom of billet. There are material advantages particularly with cylinder heads. As far as blocks are concerned the IHRA mountain motors are such a small production item so when you want to go bigger cid its more practical to make a billet block for low production items than to develop a casting.

Eplebnista
10-31-2010, 12:35 AM
Although we are dragging this thread far afield, I agree with your point about freedom of billet for limited production runs, prototyping etc. Low production racing blocks are a fine example. I would imagine, however, that once your numbers get past a certain point, setting up to do castings has to make more sense.

joseph m. hahnl
10-31-2010, 10:07 AM
. There is a difference between an American company trying to produce cheap parts and a Chinese company trying to make money.

Technically the video was for the machine center.
It requires a lot more than skill to set up and operate a 5 axis machine,It takes experience and Knowledge.All of the aspects of producing that block was computer aided.Except the physical setup,and prove out in the machine, this takes a human element.

Your statement is completely Back wards it is an American company trying to make money by having a Chinese company making cheap parts.
So who suffers? We do! By buying Pro Comp heads that Fail as all Chinese products do. I bought a Pro Comp Fuel pump it failed in 30 seconds.
who Suffered ? I did :mad:!As I had to pay 2 way shipping, a restock fee, All my labor for doing the job twice, and a day of boating.How did Pro comp suffer? They lost $5.00 bucks.The guy who sold the part he made out cause he got the restock fee .


Funny thing is people think that Chinese products are something new.
the only thing new about it is the name changed from Made in Hong Kong to made in China, And instead profits of these Company going to the UK it goes directly to the Red army. It is a national security issue. I believe that these congress man who have been lobbied to pass these trade Laws should be charged with Treason and Economical Terrorism.

Another thing that bothers me that some one actually compared Eddle Brock as being inferior to Pro Comp :confused: ? He must own stock in Pro Comp :boggled:. To think that you would need to machine an out of the box, bolt on application is ob sured. If you think that cheap labor is the only cut in cost think again these company constantly use inferior materials. Like the paint with a lead base, instead of titanium.

The Bottom Line is Flying Tomato tried to save money by buying heads that seemed to be a good deal. But in the end it cost him more because they failed. This is not just about porting. It is about all of the components that are used, as a cylinder head is more that just a cast iron casting. What else is made of inferior grade materials.Maybe Valves,Springs, Retainers, Valve seats, Valve Guides. Perhaps maybe the machining is inferior and threads strip " right out of the box" then a insert would be needed.

These views are my own:yes: These statements are only derived from personal experience with cheap Chinese crap.

PS. I could show you the drawer full of Chinese failed stuff:blub:. I can also show you the Made In USA stuff that still works:salute:.

Carl C
10-31-2010, 10:22 AM
I just bought a new wood splitting maul. It was made in India. All it is is a piece of cast iron with an edge ground on it. It's amazing that they can import such simple and heavy items cheaper than casting them here. Mind boggling actually. Something is broken here.

Back on topic, when a manufacturer orders a product from China they get what they order. It is rare but I have seen quality tools made in China.

gcarter
10-31-2010, 10:29 AM
Joe, I agree w/you.
The only caveat I would offer is that we said the same thing about Japanese goods in the post war years.
I do believe there is a difference though in the motivation of the Japanese and that of the Chinese that I have seen.
I believe that those terrible Japanese products we saw in the late '40's through the early '60's were the result of trying to work through the obliteration left over from the war. We did a pretty good job on them.
The Japanese built good products before the war, the Chinese didn't.
I believe there's a basic fundamental difference in the culture of the two countries.
I believe that as long as the Chinese workers are the last to succeed personally, they'll never care.
Boy, did I get off the track!:eek:

Dustball
10-31-2010, 11:17 AM
Your statement is completely Back wards it is an American company trying to make money by having a Chinese company making cheap parts.
So who suffers? We do! By buying Pro Comp heads that Fail as all Chinese products do. I bought a Pro Comp Fuel pump it failed in 30 seconds.
who Suffered ? I did :mad:!

I think of procomp as being a chinese copamy trying to make money. If you take an American company like Scat they do their forgings in China and finish in the US saves a lot of money and their parts are pretty good. It allows people to go racing at levels they couldn't otherwise afford. There are alot of American companies that do this Callies and Carrillo (K1 line of cranks and rods) being others. I think you are right that we lose in the end especially since this isn't limited to go fast parts. In reality China is probably one of the more responsible places we outsource to believe it or not when you consider where some of or clothes come from in Latin America. I think this will come full circle in the next twenty years China has a growing middleclass that is bound to start getting pissed about working conditions, pollution, and pay just like we did 100 years ago.