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glashole
08-11-2010, 02:09 PM
I don't run my boat very often and am always a little leary of all the oil being in the bottom of the oil pan everytime I start it up

i have seen ads for a devise that builds up pressure (using air maybe?) that you turn on prior to starting the motor

has anyone had any experience with this type of product and does it even work?

is it worth the hassle or just run an additive (like lucas) (which i do)

gcarter
08-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Pre-lubers are a good idea, but pricey unless you find a deal on eBay or something.
It's nothing more than a hydraulic accumulator w/a solenoid valve located at the inlet. Pressure is maintained in the accumulator and when you crank the starter, the solenoid opens and releases the pressure in the accumulator into the engine.
I think the way it maintains pressure is there's a check valve in the inlet also, so that the accumulator will have the highest pressure the engine has, (probably right after it starts cold).

gcarter
08-11-2010, 02:47 PM
There's an easier/cheaper way to do it though.
Simply pull your safety switch and crank the engine until you see oil pressure on the gauge. Reconnect the switch and start.
This doesn't take but a few seconds.

glashole
08-11-2010, 04:03 PM
THANKS GEORGE

i sort of do that now by pulling the coil wire if it has been a real long time

was just thinking it might wear components because it is still moving parts without oil on them

am I overthinking this?

The Hedgehog
08-11-2010, 04:25 PM
There's an easier/cheaper way to do it though.
Simply pull your safety switch and crank the engine until you see oil pressure on the gauge. Reconnect the switch and start.
This doesn't take but a few seconds.

Free Prelube. I like it.

gcarter
08-11-2010, 05:03 PM
THANKS GEORGE

i sort of do that now by pulling the coil wire if it has been a real long time

was just thinking it might wear components because it is still moving parts without oil on them

am I overthinking this?

There's plenty of oil on all the bearings, etc. for cranking speeds.
Don't worry about it.
Besides, the amount of time it takes is only a few seconds.

I think the ideal would be to add a switch under the dash for the purple wire going to the coil. Just turn it off and crank, then flip it on.

BUIZILLA
08-11-2010, 05:41 PM
you won't get the full journal lube until the engine rotates anyway due to oil hole alignment

but some is better then nothing..

mrfixxall
08-11-2010, 06:06 PM
i have a seperate starter button,,hold it for 10 seconds and turn the ignition on :)

MOP
08-11-2010, 09:37 PM
Fix beat me 2 it, a separate starter to crank it without ignition 4-5 turns the gauges will show pressure, then turn the key on and start it.

Phil

Cuda
08-11-2010, 09:39 PM
There's an easier/cheaper way to do it though.
Simply pull your safety switch and crank the engine until you see oil pressure on the gauge. Reconnect the switch and start.
This doesn't take but a few seconds.
That would be no different than starting it.

gcarter
08-11-2010, 10:36 PM
That would be no different than starting it.

Depends on how quickly your engine starts.

Nmbr1GMfan
08-11-2010, 11:23 PM
That would be no different than starting it.
Not so much, the compression is still there but combuston (when it fires) adds stress.

Ghost
08-11-2010, 11:32 PM
Anyone know what rpm a typical motor turns as the starter cranks it? I figure once it fires, it will accelerate almost instantaneously up to 6 or 8 hundred RPM, under considerably more stress, right?

Sounds like keeping the spark out for 5-10 seconds might help a lot.

Also makes me wonder if the new Merc TurnKeyIgnition, if it works, might actually cause some engines to wear more than the ones that crank for a few seconds and start a little reluctantly.

Just thinking blue sky here, could one make (or has anyone ever made) a two-speed starter motor, with the slower speed being the 'priming speed'? (If so, I'd guess you'd want manual control over the modes, in case your battery was really low, and you only had a couple cranks in it.)

gcarter
08-12-2010, 07:24 AM
Mike, it probably cranks at about 100 RPM.
A starter motor running at a slower speed would require more amps w/the same load.
Electricity wise, it would be better to run a geared two speed starter......
But it gets silly complicated at that point.

At the turn of the last century, a number of race cars w/large in-line aero engines (it was a rather short lived fad) had no starters, and were almost impossible to crank.
Instead, the cylinders were primed, the ignition marks were aligned on the flywheel, and the coil was turned on.......instant start. It would work almost all the time.
My family had a '53 Chevy 6 (the original "Stove Bolt" engine) during the day. About one third of the time it would start when the ignition was turned on...remember it had points and a condensor.

Ghost
08-12-2010, 08:23 AM
Mike, it probably cranks at about 100 RPM.
A starter motor running at a slower speed would require more amps w/the same load.
Electricity wise, it would be better to run a geared two speed starter......
But it gets silly complicated at that point.

At the turn of the last century, a number of race cars w/large in-line aero engines (it was a rather short lived fad) had no starters, and were almost impossible to crank.
Instead, the cylinders were primed, the ignition marks were aligned on the flywheel, and the coil was turned on.......instant start. It would work almost all the time.
My family had a '53 Chevy 6 (the original "Stove Bolt" engine) during the day. About one third of the time it would start when the ignition was turned on...remember it had points and a condensor.

Thanks, cool info.

Sounds like the 100RPM cranking is probably plenty slow enough anyhow. That's almost an order of magnitude below idle. As long as there's plenty of juice in the battery(ies), pulling the coil lead sounds like a good way to go. And adding wiring for an ignition-free starter button is the luxury route.

As an offshoot of this, anyone have any strong insights, knowledge, data, etc. on just how significant the wear is, from motors sitting and starting up before the oil has made its way onto all the parts?

glashole
08-12-2010, 08:38 AM
would be nice to stay out of an oil vs oil conversation but the hidden variable is how long does it take for an engine to sit for it to be completely dry?

gcarter
08-12-2010, 09:45 AM
would be nice to stay out of an oil vs oil conversation but the hidden variable is how long does it take for an engine to sit for it to be completely dry?

Assuming the intake and exhaust tracts are kept covered/protected, it won't ever get "dry". There'll always be oil in the working parts, it doesn't evaporate.

If an engine were 25 years old, and can rotate, maybe remove the plugs, squirt some oil in the plug holes, rotate by hand, clean fuel system/carb, then crank on the starter 'til you get oil pressure.
The main thing is don't leave them open.

fogducker III
08-12-2010, 10:08 AM
I would pull the "kill switch" and crank it over a couple of times before starting if it has sat a while....:confused:

glashole
08-12-2010, 10:30 AM
i know we are talking real old motors now

I was just curious on mine because it can be 2-3 months between start ups not including the winterized times and if it made sense to start it up one a week or once a month etc i would do that

tmh
08-12-2010, 11:00 AM
Related to this question, is there a period of time that it would be beneficial to occassionally start and run an engine? If you can warm it up every 2 weeks would that be better, worse, or no difference as to starting it once a month or every 3 months? I've pondered this with a couple old cars I have. If I start them and take them up the street every 10 days or so I always figured gaskets and seals weren't drying out as much.
T.M. Hayes

gcarter
08-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Related to this question, is there a period of time that it would be beneficial to occassionally start and run an engine? If you can warm it up every 2 weeks would that be better, worse, or no difference as to starting it once a month or every 3 months? I've pondered this with a couple old cars I have. If I start them and take them up the street every 10 days or so I always figured gaskets and seals weren't drying out as much.
T.M. Hayes

Cars are a lot different as they have many different systems that will start leaking if they're stationary too long. Same way w/airplanes.
But boats are a lot simpler.
Remember all the hydraulic systems are electric, except steering, so they can be manipulated w/o starting the engine.

Barry Eller
08-12-2010, 12:26 PM
I use a oil pump priming tool...however you have to remove the distributor to attach it to the oil pump. I would only use it after a rebuild or a engine that hasn't been started in a LONG time. I had a 1985 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo. It was recomended to remove the fuel pump fuse after changing oil and spin the engine over 30 seconds to oil the turbo.

Oil pump priming tool...
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00994218000P?vName=Sears%20Pro&cName=Professional&sName=Building%20&%20Remodeling&sid=IDx20070921x00003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=00994218000P

Cuda
08-12-2010, 01:05 PM
Just think how often you start your car. I had 260,000 miles on a truck and never used a preluber. Oil pressure builds up as fast as the stress on an engine. I wouldn't think twice about it, As George pointed out, there is always some oil on the bearings. The only time I ever worry about start up is if I replaced the bearings, but most rebuil kits come with a lube to put on your bearings.

blackhawk
08-12-2010, 03:25 PM
Just think how often you start your car. I had 260,000 miles on a truck and never used a preluber. Oil pressure builds up as fast as the stress on an engine. I wouldn't think twice about it, As George pointed out, there is always some oil on the bearings. The only time I ever worry about start up is if I replaced the bearings, but most rebuil kits come with a lube to put on your bearings.

I think the point was we start our boats A LOT less than cars. So does it hurt to start up a boat after it's been sitting for 2-3 weeks. And I disagree about oil pressure building as fast as stress. BUT, that being said it's such a tiny period of time I don't worry about it. This reminds me of that commercial that stated that most of engine wear was from start-up because the oil was in it the pan. I think it was Slick 50???

Ed Donnelly
08-13-2010, 11:48 AM
Check out Summit scads of prelubes

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=accupump&dds=1

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=accupump&dds=1

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=canton&dds=1

blackhawk
08-13-2010, 12:42 PM
Guess there's a reason I haven't seen those commercials in a LONG time!

According to the FTC complaint detailing the charges in this case, Slick 50 aired television and radio commercials and published brochures carrying claims such as:

* "Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine...

* " With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start- up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50, 000 miles," and;

* "What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."

According to the FTC, these claims and others falsely represented that auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear without Slick 50. It is uncommon, however, for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they are treated with Slick 50 or not. Finally, the FTC alleges that Slick 50 neither coats engine parts with a layer of PTFE nor meets military specifications for motor oil additives.

gcarter
08-13-2010, 01:24 PM
Probably the most obnoxious thing I can think of is leaky hydraulic lifters and the noise they make on start up.
Particularly when an engine isn't started frequently.
Maybe that's a good reason to get pressure up before firing it up.

Cuda
08-14-2010, 11:44 AM
I think the point was we start our boats A LOT less than cars. So does it hurt to start up a boat after it's been sitting for 2-3 weeks. And I disagree about oil pressure building as fast as stress. BUT, that being said it's such a tiny period of time I don't worry about it. This reminds me of that commercial that stated that most of engine wear was from start-up because the oil was in it the pan. I think it was Slick 50???
Oil doesn't evaporate, ssome will still be on the bearings. You just don't want to run an engine metal to metal. I've gone years between starting an engine with no ill effects.

Cuda
08-14-2010, 11:47 AM
Probably the most obnoxious thing I can think of is leaky hydraulic lifters and the noise they make on start up.
Particularly when an engine isn't started frequently.
Maybe that's a good reason to get pressure up before firing it up.
That rarely happens, and when it does, it only takes a few seconds to pump up the lifters with oil.

Dr. David Fleming
08-17-2010, 11:18 AM
G - Cuda is right - when you think of the life of the average car engine - number of starts - boat engines live a far less stressed existence - except that they run full throttle most or a great deal of the time - this is an extremely high wear mode - I would be really concerned about the time at full throttle.

Another issue is proper warm up after start - when an engine is cold the parts are all at their smallest size - clearances of pistons to cylinder - crank to rod - crank to block are at their excessive limit - warm up allows these parts to reduce the operating clearance and associated hammering effect of one part to the other - it also allows plenty of oil to get to parts that are not pressure lubricated.

I think your real issue is proper warm up of the motor and frequent oil changes with a good quality racing oil.

Some engines if you crank them with the ignition off dump fuel into the cylinders which washes off the oil that remains - it can also flood the engine - I definitely would not go full throttle on a cold engine.

CHACHI
08-17-2010, 01:00 PM
throttle.

I think your real issue is proper warm up of the motor and frequent oil changes with a good quality racing oil.


Proper warm up..............yep
Frequent oil changes.......yep
Racing oil......................not my first choice.

As a rule of thumb, racing oils usually contain less additive because they normally get changed after every race.

You would be better off to use a good 20w50 or OEM.

My 2 cents. But then what do I know.

Ken

Nmbr1GMfan
08-17-2010, 01:26 PM
Proper warm up..............yep
Frequent oil changes.......yep
Racing oil......................not my first choice.

As a rule of thumb, racing oils usually contain less additive because they normally get changed after every race.

You would be better off to use a good 20w50 or OEM.

My 2 cents. But then what do I know.

Ken
By racing oil he may have meant a less commercial type, less regulated by the govenment therefore containing more good stuff like high zinc content.

CHACHI
08-17-2010, 02:01 PM
By racing oil he may have meant a less commercial type, less regulated by the govenment therefore containing more good stuff like high zinc content.
Possibly.

Ken

mike o
08-17-2010, 02:09 PM
And went a full 2 mph faster.........:yes:

CHACHI
08-17-2010, 02:47 PM
And went a full 2 mph faster.........:yes:

LIAR!!!

Ken

DonziJon
08-17-2010, 04:27 PM
Some engines if you crank them with the ignition off dump fuel into the cylinders which washes off the oil that remains - it can also flood the engine - .


BINGO. I was going to mention this. I would say ALL carberated engines would do this. So I think this whole discussion is a wash....unless you "Charge" the oil system without turning the engine over. :bonk:

DonziJon
08-17-2010, 05:48 PM
And went a full 2 mph faster.........:yes:

Some of you people will NOT believe this because you are "Obsessed" with, and NEED to believe, that things need to be complicated to be believable.

I gained 4 mph on my Minx by just taking off the engine hatch and leaving it on the dock. :nilly:

blackhawk
08-17-2010, 06:14 PM
Oil doesn't evaporate, ssome will still be on the bearings. You just don't want to run an engine metal to metal. I've gone years between starting an engine with no ill effects.

I agree I was just stating the point of the thread. With the way most of us wring out our boats a cold start-up is nothing to worry about. LOL

mike o
08-17-2010, 08:32 PM
LIAR!!!

KenPants on fire..........:kingme::kingme::kingme:

gcarter
08-17-2010, 10:55 PM
Come on guys, get real!

At 100 RPM, the engine will turn over 12-13 times in 10 seconds.
W/the throttle closed on a carbed engine, the cylinders will NOT
get washed down.
On the other hand, having pressure up is a good thing.

I was just thinking about the '53 Chevy my family had in the 50's.
The engine was designed in about 1926, had pressure lube on the
OHV parts, but had splash lube on the bottom end.
OTOH, I don't think many were ever built to over 200 HP.
Even the '53 Corvette was advertised @ 150 HP.

Cuda
08-18-2010, 12:28 AM
Come on guys, get real!

At 100 RPM, the engine will turn over 12-13 times in 10 seconds.
W/the throttle closed on a carbed engine, the cylinders will NOT
get washed down.
On the other hand, having pressure up is a good thing.

I was just thinking about the '53 Chevy my family had in the 50's.
The engine was designed in about 1926, had pressure lube on the
OHV parts, but had splash lube on the bottom end.
OTOH, I don't think many were ever built to over 200 HP.
Even the '53 Corvette was advertised @ 150 HP.
A 53 Vette had a Blue Flame Six for an enginel
If you do get gas in your oil pan you are creating a bomb. The dilute oil won't lube the bearing, and when the bearings get hot enough it will ignight the gasoline in you crankcase. I've never seen it happen but it definetly could.