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View Full Version : NO2 or ProCharger Questions...



CAPTBEACH
08-03-2010, 02:48 PM
30 to 60 days out from buying an 18 Classic or X18...looking for Ford Power almost exclusively.

Will probably tear down almost immediately depending on when I finally get it and what the weather in Va is like then...

Hull and interior is getting finished first...get the cosmetics out of the way, $3K-$4K allotted for that as I am doing all the work except the upholstery...

Then the Engine/Drive...If I were building an outboard I'd be dropping $16-$18K on a new engine plus another $2.5K or so on rigging so I'm trying to stay in that range...I know I'll never get the $$$ back out of it but I tend to keep things for a long time so my motto is do'em right the first time...

Motor will most probably be a moderate compression 351W stroked to 406-427CI, keeping the compression down to reduce loads and hopefully add a measure of reliability by doing so...high compression strokers seem to have a tendency to self destruct more often than others...

I have a recipe for a 351W to 427 already and its a pretty tried and true conversion and fairly straight forward...not on the exotic side of things...

Forged pistons and rods, big high volume oil/fuel pumps, Edelbrock alum. High Flow heads and an MSD Ignition coupled with a moderately lobbed camshaft blowing thru a nice free flowing SS exhaust rounds out the basic mill.

The induction seems to have me stumped...

Option 1. NA with a Edlebrock Alum Intake, an appropriate carb running a NO2 system...most people it seems simply run around and enjoy their boats fairly conservatively, as long as the wife was in the boat with me I'd be forced to... but when you really want to get sick with it a spray button putting a fairly nice shot of NO2 is a great way to get a lot of ponies from a motor in a hurry and as long as the valve train and lower end are up to the task really doesnt hurt reliability in the long run too bad...

Option 2. Run a Pro-Charger with 9-14lbs of boost...this opens up the Pandora's Box of FUEL INJECTION, processors and lots of tuning to get it right...

What drive would a prudent person run on a set up like these? I'm thinking Volvo SX or DP, maybe a Blackhawk drive...

Pretty sure I can get 350-400HP out of this set up NA and 475-500HP when dead into it spraying or full boosting...

What say you? Experiences? Problems with the set up? What would be the weak link?

Pics of similar set ups? Especially a Pro-Charged boat...

I am planning on running this boat in fresh water lakes and rivers but live on the Chesapeake Bay...would I have problems cooling this setup running a heat exchanger and antifreeze system if I run in the salt?

As an aside...whats the consensus on MOPAR are there any MOPAR Donzi setups?

bertsboat
08-03-2010, 06:50 PM
Was that a dream you were having or is it a dream you ARE having. Snap out of it. Look for a boat that is turn key and that the other guy lost all that money and work he did himself. Do yourself a favor !!
It doesnt matter how big a boat is, it will cost 5 to 20 thousand dollars to rebuild. Take it from some that wasted his 401K several times over !!!

The Hedgehog
08-03-2010, 06:59 PM
You will need to spend a bunch more if you want to play like that.

A 427 built moderately should yield north of 600 hp with 5 lbs of procharged boost. Jack the boost up to 10 lbs and tune it right you will have a screamer. I make over 900hp on my 540 with 9 lbs of boost.

If you want it to live, you will need to spend 8-9k on a Bravo XR. Add another $4k for hydraulic steering. You will spend $13k before you touch the engine.

I am assuming that you are doing the engine work yourself if you are doing that for $16-18k. The procharger alone will cost around $5k. If you are slinging big hp numbers from a Ford, you will need to drop some dough on a set of CMI headers. Probably $5k there. That is $10k before you touch the block heads etc. Then factor in dyno time (those non-linear boost curves of a procharger are a bitch to tune)

NOS works but it is kind of hard to prop for that. Maybe good for an extra 10 mph. Ask MrFixxal about that. He is the resident expert on that subject.

This is all workable stuff. You can cut a few corners, shop deals, do the work yourself, hope a standard bravo will live, cheat death without proper steering, etc. Point is that if you start talking about big hp and going fast, if you want it done right, it costs some money.

BigGrizzly
08-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Been there done it forget 9 to 14 psi of boos. go with 4 to 6 and closed cool it. as for no2 your choice for me it is not an option for many reasons. one of my boats is a351 Cleveland, so i know Fords very well I prefer the 406 over the 427 stroker. that is my take.

CAPTBEACH
08-03-2010, 09:35 PM
Those are the kinds of input I'm looking for...

As far as dreams...not really...I'm retired, $$$ isn't so much of a problem will never have to touch the 401K, I'm just finishing ( just have 1-2 days of buttoning up the wiring) a COMPLETE Cap off restoration of a 1974 SeaCraft (1 year 2 months) and have spent $23K so far, its my 3rd complete restoration on a boat. I am within $1.5K of where I said I'd be on the SeaCraft.

According to my marine surveyor and my Suzuki dealer I could do this for a living...I love the work involved and the end results.

I will be doing all of the work, engine building, paint and electrical, everything except the upholstery and probably farm out the drive work as well...I'll do 95-99% of the sweating and wrench turning.

I realize I could shop around for a turn key...that's really no fun...and it would not be mine...

You would leave a Harley you bought from someone else alone would ya...You make it YOURS...same here...

As far as Harleys, motors and boats, I've been turning wrenches on them for 37 years now...its become therapy...

I agree tuning a prop for NO2 would be hard...

Sounds like a Pro Charger and a little boost might work out better...

Yes the 351W/406 Stroker is nice and probably a bit more reliable than the 351W/427 version...

And I seem to have the Midas touch when it comes to deals...I hardly ever buy something new unless its a huge deal, I'd rather buy used, strip it, rebuild it, powder coat it and run it...I've found nearly new Pro-Chargers for $1500-$1800, granted they are automotive applications and I'm sure there's some pretty good differences and some similarities too but I think I can get around that...I'm pretty handy...

The Hedgehog
08-04-2010, 09:39 AM
Those are the kinds of input I'm looking for...

As far as dreams...not really...I'm retired, $$$ isn't so much of a problem will never have to touch the 401K, I'm just finishing ( just have 1-2 days of buttoning up the wiring) a COMPLETE Cap off restoration of a 1974 SeaCraft (1 year 2 months) and have spent $23K so far, its my 3rd complete restoration on a boat. I am within $1.5K of where I said I'd be on the SeaCraft.

According to my marine surveyor and my Suzuki dealer I could do this for a living...I love the work involved and the end results.

I will be doing all of the work, engine building, paint and electrical, everything except the upholstery and probably farm out the drive work as well...I'll do 95-99% of the sweating and wrench turning.

I realize I could shop around for a turn key...that's really no fun...and it would not be mine...

You would leave a Harley you bought from someone else alone would ya...You make it YOURS...same here...

As far as Harleys, motors and boats, I've been turning wrenches on them for 37 years now...its become therapy...

I agree tuning a prop for NO2 would be hard...

Sounds like a Pro Charger and a little boost might work out better...

Yes the 351W/406 Stroker is nice and probably a bit more reliable than the 351W/427 version...

And I seem to have the Midas touch when it comes to deals...I hardly ever buy something new unless its a huge deal, I'd rather buy used, strip it, rebuild it, powder coat it and run it...I've found nearly new Pro-Chargers for $1500-$1800, granted they are automotive applications and I'm sure there's some pretty good differences and some similarities too but I think I can get around that...I'm pretty handy...

Figure out how fast you want to go first. Then it is pretty easy to figure out how much hp you need. From that, you can figure out how much it will cost.

Then I would talk to Grizz or someone else that has done it with a Ford.

Being "handy" is good and you can use "recipes" to get to 400-550 or so hp. Beyond that you need some experience or guidance from one that has been there. If you want to play around with big power (800+ hp), you better hire a good engine builder. That is just the way it works in boats. You can not take stuff that works in cars and apply it to boats. Go buy an auto procharger on the cheap, stuff it on and wind it up. That may very well yield a bunch of blower blades in the intake. BAm. Heck, I demolished a M-3 that I bought new from Procharger. I was not really making much boost when it grenaded. The good news is that I had a nice marine intercooler that acted as a strainer for my blades.

There is a HUGE difference between rigging a regular boat and a performance boat. I mean HUGE.

CAPTBEACH
08-04-2010, 10:12 AM
Thats why I am here asking questions...

70...I'd like to be able to be able to break 70mph when I want to...anything over that would be gravy...

I can pump 55 out of a 20' SeaCraft with a stock Suzuki 175 the right prop (took 3 tries and still not done) and trim and it has lots of aerodynamic drag in a t-top, console and tower... I realize MPH/HP and speed is almost logarithmic in boats , $3K and 25-50 ponies for 3-5mph sometimes...not going to be building 800hp engines in my shop...350-400-450 sure been there done that...Mopars and Fords...Chevy is Latin to me...LOL...I know there are some big differences in automotive parts and marine parts...

Really looking for experience and mentoring here...

Papu
08-04-2010, 10:23 AM
I have an 18 ft classic with the 350 MPI. I'm considering a Procharger with a conservative 5 PSI boost. Is that gonna blow my Alpha drive up?

Carl C
08-04-2010, 10:34 AM
Nitrous is a lot of fun but is only good for short bursts. Like Hedge said, do you prop for the nitrous or for the motor or do you just rev it to 6,500 on the juice for the occasional race and hope things stay together. I like N2O a lot, I have it on my '82 Mustang and my Yamaha Banshee. I also had it on my Hydrostream Vegas XT. Personally I would not install the juice unless you are anticipating some short races. The blown 351W would be awesome. With the parts available now the Ford small blocks can hang with the Chevys. Good luck.

Carl C
08-04-2010, 10:35 AM
I have an 18 ft classic with the 350 MPI. I'm considering a Procharger with a conservative 5 PSI boost. Is that gonna blow my Alpha drive up?

Probably. Unless you drive like a wuss.....:wink:

maddad
08-04-2010, 10:45 AM
Hi Capt, my boat was a Ford boat (hm351c) and at first I wanted to stick with the ford setup. I also wanted a dependable 70mph boat. After 3 clevelands and the hassle of no real selection of performance marine parts for fords, mostly the exhaust end, I switched to Chevy. My 406 powered 18 will now do 70 at the drop of a hat, and after the external cylinders and helm I bought get here, I'll start looking for the top end. I'm sure there are fast ford boats out there, those guys just don't seem to post here. Except for Randy, and ask him what cmi's for a cleveland cost, if you can get them.

Papu
08-04-2010, 11:07 AM
Probably. Unless you drive like a wuss.....:wink:

OK, guess I'll scratch that idea.

The Hedgehog
08-04-2010, 10:58 PM
If 70 is all you want, you don't need blowers or anything exotic.

My X-18 will do that with a stock 383 Mag and Bravo I. External steering helps too.

Carl C
08-05-2010, 08:52 AM
Hi Capt, my boat was a Ford boat (hm351c) and at first I wanted to stick with the ford setup. I also wanted a dependable 70mph boat. After 3 clevelands and the hassle of no real selection of performance marine parts for fords, mostly the exhaust end, I switched to Chevy. My 406 powered 18 will now do 70 at the drop of a hat, and after the external cylinders and helm I bought get here, I'll start looking for the top end. I'm sure there are fast ford boats out there, those guys just don't seem to post here. Except for Randy, and ask him what cmi's for a cleveland cost, if you can get them.

There is a big difference between the Windsor and Cleveland engines. One of the big advantages to the 351C is the superior head design but now with the big selection of aftermarket heads I think the Windsor is the way to go. There must be afFORDable marine exhaust available for the 289/302/351W.


OK, guess I'll scratch that idea.

Remember that's just MY opinion and I boat on rough water. Some folks here have been able to keep the Alphas together, some have not.

Papu
08-05-2010, 09:10 AM
Remember that's just MY opinion and I boat on rough water. Some folks here have been able to keep the Alphas together, some have not.

I guess I got the winter to mull it all over. I ride Lake Michigan at WOT a couple times a week regardless of the chop.

A2VeeDub
08-05-2010, 09:47 AM
NOS works but it is kind of hard to prop for that. Maybe good for an extra 10 mph.

I think propping for N2O is somewhat easier in a smaller boat. A 16 or 18 won't struggle as much to get on plane with a slightly oversized prop like a 22 or larger will.

I love the nitrous on my 18. With it propped a little heavy I get better cruising speeds and fuel economy, but the juice is there if I really need it for a short burst.

Carl C
08-05-2010, 09:51 AM
I guess I got the winter to mull it all over. I ride Lake Michigan at WOT a couple times a week regardless of the chop.

lol, good luck with that Alpha x_x

BigGrizzly
08-05-2010, 10:07 AM
Cap I do the Cleveland thing because that was original equipment H&M. The problem is they hate log manifolds, cause them to drop exhaust valves. This is also an issue in autos too. Yes I would do it again, just because i can and I have a 1971 MACH I.
Papu, in your case the Procharger hits softer then NO2 and is safer and neater than NO2. However in your case I would do the 383 route for ease ans durability.

Papu
08-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Papu, in your case the Procharger hits softer then NO2 and is safer and neater than NO2. However in your case I would do the 383 route for ease ans durability.
That would require the Bravo upgrade but I hear ya.