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DonziBuoy
06-20-2010, 08:52 PM
I put my boat in for the first time this year, and she started right up. I watched gauges and nothing seemed out of place. Take a look at the engine and there are 2 streams of water coming from the starboard side of the block (350). I tried to find out exactly where but I could feel the heat beginning to generate from the engine. Pulled the boat out, put the hose and the leaks are definitely coming from the block under the log.

Does this sound like what I think it is?

Jim

mrfixxall
06-20-2010, 10:53 PM
I put my boat in for the first time this year, and she started right up. I watched gauges and nothing seemed out of place. Take a look at the engine and there are 2 streams of water coming from the starboard side of the block (350). I tried to find out exactly where but I could feel the heat beginning to generate from the engine. Pulled the boat out, put the hose and the leaks are definitely coming from the block under the log.

Does this sound like what I think it is?

Jim

bend over and poke your head down their :)

could be a number of things,a split in the hose,bad freeze plug,bad heas gasket,worse case cracked block or a cracked manifold..

Carl C
06-21-2010, 08:41 AM
A mirror might be a big help. It could be bad since this is your first run of the season. It could also be a freeze/core plug.:crossfing:

BubbleBee
06-21-2010, 08:54 AM
Ive never had a good block tht a freeze plug popped out. Usally means the block cracked due to frezing and pushed it. I just had this happen. Over the weekend dropped another 351.
-Mike

DonziBuoy
06-21-2010, 10:04 AM
Thanks guys, it sounds from bad to really f^#king bad.

Jim

DonziBuoy
06-21-2010, 10:06 AM
For the heck of it, in the fall I ran antifreeze through the motor. Assuming there was some water in there, how do you winterize it?

thanks again for the great advice on this board.

FISHIN SUCKS
06-21-2010, 10:23 AM
Possible stupid question here, but if you have the Mercruiser 350, do you have the blue wing nut plugs in? if so, how are the rubber o-rings? some of mine were split and would leak (I got twin 350 mags), so I replaced the rubber rings, no more leaks.

I don't winterize with anti-freeze, I just drain the blocks (I know this is debate-able, but it's how I roll), so I cant help ya on this. Are we talkin like water gushing or trickling? If you have a cracked block, your oil on your dipstick should be milky, check it out.

I wish ya the best Buoy,
tom

DonziBuoy
06-21-2010, 05:49 PM
And everyone else, it is always amazing to me how good the information is here. I ran water at high pressure, and everything seemed fine. Checked the oil and its clear.

I tried using the mirror and could not find anything. The water seemed to be coming right below the middle exhaust pipes from the gasket.

Is God on my side?

BTW, where is the freeze plug, my sh*ty volvo manual doesn't seem to have it.

FISHIN SUCKS
06-21-2010, 08:10 PM
Hey Jim, wish I could be of more help to ya. If the water was gushing out, then possibly a freeze plug (a round tin plug about 1 1/2" in diameter on the 'V' part of the block). However, if it was a freeze plug that popped out (due to freezing), my experience has been you would find milky oil on the dipstick (in the pan, cracked block). If it's a trickle of water or small flow, sounds like it is a split/pin leak in the hose going to the exhaust manifold. Don't know much about how Volvo's are plumbed, sorry,

tom

Pismo
06-21-2010, 08:17 PM
For the heck of it, in the fall I ran antifreeze through the motor. Assuming there was some water in there, how do you winterize it?
thanks again for the great advice on this board.

I think antifreeze should be renamed alwaysfreeze. The only engines I ever hear that crack up are ones filled with antifreeze...

mrfixxall
06-21-2010, 09:33 PM
I think antifreeze should be renamed alwaysfreeze. The only engines I ever hear that crack up are ones filled with antifreeze...

been using it for over 20+ years in my motors,never had any issues, if it was to freeze then why do they use it in cars then with no issues. :confused:

If its done properly and run through the engine and checked with a refractor then you should not have any problems,, :)

MOP
06-21-2010, 10:26 PM
Running antifreeze through needs to be done correctly, if you just stuck a hose in a bucket of antifreeze and ran it until it came out the exhaust that DOES not work! The thermostat slams shut when the cold antifreeze hits and that leaves you with next to nothing in the block, that is not terrible if you thoroughly drained it prior to running the antifreeze through. The best way is to finish fogging the engine out then draining it and filling it with antifreeze through the thermostat housing, The ket is to drain the block and manifolds dry then get the antifreeze in!

axelkloehn
06-22-2010, 03:13 AM
And everyone else, it is always amazing to me how good the information is here. I ran water at high pressure, and everything seemed fine. Checked the oil and its clear.

I tried using the mirror and could not find anything. The water seemed to be coming right below the middle exhaust pipes from the gasket.

Is God on my side?

BTW, where is the freeze plug, my sh*ty volvo manual doesn't seem to have it.
#

Did you have white smoke from the exhaust when running the engine? I had a badly sealed intake manifold and water got in the cylinder and came out from the exhaust gasket. If you just ran the engine very short you could have luck that the oil is not effected and just got straight in-and-out again. Sounds like intake manifold (cracked or broken gasket) to me...good luck!

Pismo
06-22-2010, 07:51 AM
been using it for over 20+ years in my motors,never had any issues, if it was to freeze then why do they use it in cars then with no issues. :confused:

If its done properly and run through the engine and checked with a refractor then you should not have any problems,, :)

It is the application of it in draining boats where the problems arise. Obviously it works well in cars. The problem is which you state, it is not done properly, not mixing thoroughly, or drained afterward. Like I said, if someone states that their engine has frozen over the winter and cracked up, an attempt at filling it with antifreeze is always the next line. Avoid it like the plague unless you know exactly what to do.

BubbleBee
06-22-2010, 08:45 AM
Donzi where are you from? Maybe some one close to you could swing by and check it with you. As for an intake Highly unlikely due to that is very rare.

DonziBuoy
06-22-2010, 04:34 PM
I put some hose water through it again, with a lot of pressure and nothing- no water coming out of block, just out the outdrive. I did not start the engine, but checked the engine oil, and it was clear, no milky deposits. The gaskets on the starboard side had drops of water. Hoses all looked fine.

I plan to hook up the water again and start her up, and see if I can find this d*^N leak@!

BTW, I live in LI, NY.

CHACHI
06-23-2010, 12:24 PM
The best way is to finish fogging the engine out then draining it and filling it with antifreeze through the thermostat housing, The ket is to drain the block and manifolds dry then get the antifreeze in!
+2

Ken

TBroccoli
06-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Running antifreeze through needs to be done correctly, if you just stuck a hose in a bucket of antifreeze and ran it until it came out the exhaust that DOES not work! The thermostat slams shut when the cold antifreeze hits and that leaves you with next to nothing in the block, that is not terrible if you thoroughly drained it prior to running the antifreeze through. The best way is to finish fogging the engine out then draining it and filling it with antifreeze through the thermostat housing, The ket is to drain the block and manifolds dry then get the antifreeze in!

MOP, If you run off the hose and get engine temp up, then tee off water and allow antifreeze to flow, shouldn't the liquid temp remain about the same allowing the tstat to remain open? I've winterized like this for years. Have I just gotten lucky?

MOP
06-23-2010, 10:36 PM
MOP, If you run off the hose and get engine temp up, then tee off water and allow antifreeze to flow, shouldn't the liquid temp remain about the same allowing the tstat to remain open? I've winterized like this for years. Have I just gotten lucky?

You have been lucky! The cold antifreeze closes the Tstat! Most drain everything then pour trough the manifolds Tstat opening, I pull the circ hose at the top and put a funnel in and pour slow until it comes out where I pulled the hose off then I pour it through the exhaust until it dribbles out the back. Some shops drain everything then run the drives in an antifreeze tub, the tub only has few few inches of mix in it. They use a Rule bilge pump and rabbit ears to supply the mix to the engine, that is a pretty quick route when doing multiples.

Phil

TBroccoli
06-24-2010, 08:12 AM
I still don't understand how the antifreeze is colder then the water from the hose. I would think the hose water (coming from the ground) would be colder then my house kept antifreeze. I bought a winterizing kit that has a container that holds my antifreeze with a line that tees into my garden hose. I run the engine on the garden hose. Once the engine is up to temperature I tee off the water and the antifreeze flows into the engine. When I see pink coming out of my exhaust I begin to fog the engine. I get in enough fogging before the antifreeze runs out. I shut it down and put it away. Does that sound like I have enough antifreeze throughout the engine?

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread.

cutwater
06-24-2010, 11:39 AM
I still don't understand how the antifreeze is colder then the water from the hose. I would think the hose water (coming from the ground) would be colder then my house kept antifreeze. I bought a winterizing kit that has a container that holds my antifreeze with a line that tees into my garden hose. I run the engine on the garden hose. Once the engine is up to temperature I tee off the water and the antifreeze flows into the engine. When I see pink coming out of my exhaust I begin to fog the engine. I get in enough fogging before the antifreeze runs out. I shut it down and put it away. Does that sound like I have enough antifreeze throughout the engine?

It's not that the fresh anti-freeze is any colder than tap water. You are right that the exact same phenomena happens when you feed the system cold tap water. But think about how the system works - the temperature of the incoming fluid (near room temp) mixed with the fluid already in the block (hot) is what sets the flow rate through the block via the t-stat. So the REAL difference here (without closed cooling) is that you have an unlimited supply of water when on the hose, but a limited supply of anti-freeze.

When you feed the system anti-freeze, yes there will be some anti-freeze that gets mixed in with the water already in the block. But since it is colder than the water already there, the t-stat will retard the flow (just as it would with cold tap water). Meanwhile, your impeller is forcing the other anti-freeze rapidly out the exhaust via the bypass. You have just very quickly run out of anti-freeze, and all you have in the BLOCK is a weak mix of anti-freeze and water! So the temp rating of the anti-freeze has been degraded.

IF you had an unlimited supply of anti-freeze, yes, the mixture in the block would eventually become mostly anti-freeze. But draining the block of water first ensures that the solution going into the water jackets is not a weak mix, but pure anti-freeze. Hence MOP's suggestion.

FISHIN SUCKS
06-24-2010, 02:37 PM
(I know this is debate-able,
Hey Jim, sorry to bring up the debate thing, but this 'anti-freeze' subject gets about as controversal as discussing what oil to use in your boat:biggrin.:

Have you had any luck in finding your leak?

DonziBuoy
06-25-2010, 08:46 PM
OK, I wish I knew what I know now. d*%n it.

I started the engine, at first dry as a bone, and then I saw a slight trickle, coming from under the middle exhaust, then it became a stream straight out. ANd there it was, I got the flash light and mirror, a horizontal crack just below the deck, about 4 inches wide, and then a one inch down. I shut her off and it just weeped down the side. The oil however is still clear?

I now own a 500 lb anchor!

Trying to figure if I should go after the shop that did the work of winterizing. MOP, where were ya when I needed ya?!

Thanks everyone and enjoy this summer, gas will be going up anyway.

Jim

gcarter
06-25-2010, 08:59 PM
OK, I wish I knew what I know now. d*%n it.

I started the engine, at first dry as a bone, and then I saw a slight trickle, coming from under the middle exhaust, then it became a stream straight out. ANd there it was, I got the flash light and mirror, a horizontal crack just below the deck, about 4 inches wide, and then a one inch down. I shut her off and it just weeped down the side. The oil however is still clear?

I now own a 500 lb anchor!

Trying to figure if I should go after the shop that did the work of winterizing. MOP, where were ya when I needed ya?!

Thanks everyone and enjoy this summer, gas will be going up anyway.

Jim

I'm trying to follow your description.....
Do you have a cracked block just below the head/block joint?
If you do and you want to save your summer, but not permanently, have the crack welded up.

mrfixxall
06-25-2010, 10:01 PM
the good news is like george said ( no water in the oil),, either get a good welder and make sure he knows how to weld cast iron..make sure he uses nickel welding rod or another option is you could have him braze it up but you have to get the cast iron hot enough to get the braze to flow into the cast metal and i would be worried about hurting the head gasket from the heat..

option is to get some devcon part A, i use to use this stuff inside cast iron blocks to make them stronger in my drag racing days...its literally like liquid steel...all you would need is a wire wheel and a grinder to open the crack up a bit...mix a little up and force it into the crack and let it set up..wire wheel it again and apply a second coat and your done..i used it on a friends ski boat about 5 yrs ago and its still running strong..

DonziBuoy
06-25-2010, 10:39 PM
I guess what you guys are saying is if I do not see water in the oil, the crack can be temporaly fixed?

Of the two options, can they both be fixed in the boat? Anyone care to guesstimate the cost?

Finding the right guy - MOP or anyone, do you know the right guy in LI?

I am always amazed at the intelligence here - Maybe we should be fixing the world?

Jim

gcarter
06-25-2010, 10:52 PM
It might can be permanently fixed. It depends on a lot of circumstances.
I used to watch my dad do these types of repairs......from blocks, to cracks inside of combustion chambers.
It requires a welder w/a lot of this type of experience. Like Fix said, the crack has to be ground out, then it has to be heated, and then welded w/a nickel rod. When done properly on the right type of crack, it can be completely permanent.

DonziBuoy
06-26-2010, 11:01 AM
George, thanks for the advice. My concern here is I do this job, and 3 months later a smaller, internal crack develops and I am once again in trouble.

HOwever, with all of the work done on this block, it would be a lot easier . . . .

I kind of know how the scenario is going to play out with the local mechanic who winterized it . . . I am hoping my insurance will pick this up - unlikely, but worth a shot.

farmer tx
06-26-2010, 08:51 PM
Last spring a friend of mine hauled a Domin8tor from AZ to TX and was told it was winterized. The block drains were stopped up with sand. He got no relief from insurance. I told him to bring it up and we would fix it. I ground through the paint around the crack and patched it with JB Weld. He wasn't sure about it, so I told him to go run it and see what happend. Ran all last season and so far this season. You never know, but it's worth a try.:boat:

mrfixxall
06-26-2010, 11:09 PM
George, thanks for the advice. My concern here is I do this job, and 3 months later a smaller, internal crack develops and I am once again in trouble.

HOwever, with all of the work done on this block, it would be a lot easier . . . .

I kind of know how the scenario is going to play out with the local mechanic who winterized it . . . I am hoping my insurance will pick this up - unlikely, but worth a shot.

the only way your insurance will cover it is if it sank on the trailer..as for the guy that winterized it i would go beck to him with your complaint,if you got a receipt then you have ground to stand on,you paid for a service and it went sour over winter so he should honor it..

good luck

thehow33
06-27-2010, 08:51 AM
Last spring a friend of mine hauled a Domin8tor from AZ to TX and was told it was winterized. The block drains were stopped up with sand. He got no relief from insurance. I told him to bring it up and we would fix it. I ground through the paint around the crack and patched it with JB Weld. He wasn't sure about it, so I told him to go run it and see what happend. Ran all last season and so far this season. You never know, but it's worth a try.:boat:

It definitely works. Trueser did this on his 19' searay a while back and to my knowledge its still working.

jstokes8407
06-28-2010, 07:48 AM
I don't know where on the island u are but we have a guy named tap on the north fork who is an amazing welder.

about 8 years ago my old engine had the same crack from improper winterization and I ground it out and used marine tex and it held for 4 years with no problems. Then I got a deal on a new motor but if I still had the engine I bet it would b fine

DonziBuoy
06-28-2010, 08:01 PM
I found a guy who is a master welder, but I think if you guys have any experience and the north fork is not too far - wonder if MOP knows him -

He quoted me $400 and I have about $400 to $500 in and out (I do not have the tools to get it out and I am not mechanically inclined like most of you guys - I know how to twist off a top on a beer though)

Now I saw core engines with 5 year warantees for $1200. but then there is installation and the rebuilding of the engine.

MOP
06-28-2010, 09:49 PM
Joey at NFW can do it no question for a fee, but you can try an old trick that has cured many a crack first. PM me I will give you the Poop!

mrfixxall
06-28-2010, 10:12 PM
I found a guy who is a master welder, but I think if you guys have any experience and the north fork is not too far - wonder if MOP knows him -

He quoted me $400 and I have about $400 to $500 in and out (I do not have the tools to get it out and I am not mechanically inclined like most of you guys - I know how to twist off a top on a beer though)

Now I saw core engines with 5 year warantees for $1200. but then there is installation and the rebuilding of the engine.


Wwhat is he using 24k gold?? that is way to much..it would take a hour tops for one 4'' crack...i weld cast iron all the time with my ole mig welder..

DonziBuoy
07-06-2010, 12:22 AM
My concern is if the ice pushed out wouldn't also push to the inside? I have found another crack on the port side as well.

DonziBuoy
07-11-2010, 11:45 PM
the good news is like george said ( no water in the oil),, either get a good welder and make sure he knows how to weld cast iron..make sure he uses nickel welding rod or another option is you could have him braze it up but you have to get the cast iron hot enough to get the braze to flow into the cast metal and i would be worried about hurting the head gasket from the heat..

option is to get some devcon part A, i use to use this stuff inside cast iron blocks to make them stronger in my drag racing days...its literally like liquid steel...all you would need is a wire wheel and a grinder to open the crack up a bit...mix a little up and force it into the crack and let it set up..wire wheel it again and apply a second coat and your done..i used it on a friends ski boat about 5 yrs ago and its still running strong..

The more I have read about this and the J-Weld product, I like them. This would be the cheapest, and it seems just as durable, for the short run. Has anyone here had experience with either compound? THanks!

DonziBuoy
07-12-2010, 12:45 PM
Do you need to take the engine out to grind? If I put some tin sheets down plus a fan, would that be acceptable or would it be too dangerous for sparks?

Cuda
07-12-2010, 01:28 PM
It definitely works. Trueser did this on his 19' searay a while back and to my knowledge its still working.
I patched many a leaking freeze plug with JB weld in cars. I also have used Bondo. It was easier than pulling the engine.

Cuda
07-12-2010, 01:30 PM
I put some hose water through it again, with a lot of pressure and nothing- no water coming out of block, just out the outdrive. I did not start the engine, but checked the engine oil, and it was clear, no milky deposits. The gaskets on the starboard side had drops of water. Hoses all looked fine.
I plan to hook up the water again and start her up, and see if I can find this d*^N leak@!
BTW, I live in LI, NY.
The best way to winterize a boat is to move to Florida.

Cuda
07-12-2010, 01:33 PM
I found a guy who is a master welder, but I think if you guys have any experience and the north fork is not too far - wonder if MOP knows him -
He quoted me $400 and I have about $400 to $500 in and out (I do not have the tools to get it out and I am not mechanically inclined like most of you guys - I know how to twist off a top on a beer though)
Now I saw core engines with 5 year warantees for $1200. but then there is installation and the rebuilding of the engine.
Try the JB weld. It's not under pressure usually. Cast iron is a biotch to weld. You have to drill holes at both ends of the crack or it will just keep getting bigger as the block heats up from welding. Cast iron is not a lot of fun to drill either.

DonziBuoy
07-13-2010, 04:11 PM
I kno0w I am splitting hairs but there is Marine Tex, Devcon and J-B Weld. Assuming the crack is 4 inches, does anyone have a product they like over others?

I have tried to find a comparison on the Web, no luck.

DonziBuoy

DonziBuoy
08-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Unfortunately, After taking the manifolds off, the engine was not a marine engine, so the crack is much worse than originally thought. I was going to use J-B weld, but the cracks are significant. Therefore, I am tearing down the engine, I bought the boat was told it is .30 over. If so, I have a short block and will swap out, if not, I will put the short block in and maybe I will still catch the season. THe block I want to put in has a minor problem, slight rust from exposure in one of the cylinders - Or, I might just bite the bullet and get a new long block and be done with it.

Ghost
08-09-2010, 08:41 PM
Running antifreeze through needs to be done correctly, if you just stuck a hose in a bucket of antifreeze and ran it until it came out the exhaust that DOES not work! The thermostat slams shut when the cold antifreeze hits and that leaves you with next to nothing in the block, that is not terrible if you thoroughly drained it prior to running the antifreeze through. The best way is to finish fogging the engine out then draining it and filling it with antifreeze through the thermostat housing, The ket is to drain the block and manifolds dry then get the antifreeze in!

Phil, this is very interesting about the thermostat. Where is(are) the valve(s)that the thermostat controls?

I take it if you have closed-cooling system (half system, with a closed block and raw water in the manifolds only) then it is fine to run the winterizing antifreeze from the seawater intake, until it runs out the exhaust a bit? Without draining anything first I mean? And likewise, with a whole system (block AND manifolds get no seawater), same thing even more so?

Thanks,

Mike

MOP
08-10-2010, 07:11 AM
Phil, this is very interesting about the thermostat. Where is(are) the valve(s)that the thermostat controls?

I take it if you have closed-cooling system (half system, with a closed block and raw water in the manifolds only) then it is fine to run the winterizing antifreeze from the seawater intake, until it runs out the exhaust a bit? Without draining anything first I mean? And likewise, with a whole system (block AND manifolds get no seawater), same thing even more so?

Thanks,

Mike

True to a point, it will work in most cases but not fool proof! Drain all sea circuits, there is always the possibility that one section will flow better than another leaving an area not properly protected. To me there are no short cuts, there are many easier and better BS ideas of how! That is why every year we have several cracked blocks/manifolds done by those who know better or are inept, it is just to costly not to do it right!

Ghost
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
Thanks Phil. -Mike

DonziBuoy
08-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Found a 350 Merc, that had been wrapped but water got into it. So I took it all apart and surprisingly, the engine looks pretty good. I plan to replace all the cylinders, I have a .030 cylinder in my old engine, and have yet to take a look at it.

This new engine is stock except for a high deck edelbrock manifold, which is too tall for my engine hatch. Or, I may just put new stock pistons in and be done with it.

I got lucky on the new engine core. If I can get all the parts and, God willing, I did everything right, I could be on the water in September!