Need Opinion on boat sale

[VetteLT193]

I just sold my (formerly my Brother's) 22 classic.

I tried 100% to be as honest as I could be. Before listing it on eBay I started it on the hose and posted video. Boat started right up, all seemed fine. I had no insurance on the boat and had not used it in a good 6 months. I told all this to the buyer.

After he verbally said he wanted it I slowed him down, asked if I could take more pics etc before he made the trip down from Michigan. I didn't want him to come all this way to find something off.

Buyer came from Michigan, turns out to be buyers buddy. Check was from another buddy. some red flags came up but it all seemed to work out. I previously offered a ride in the boat if he wanted it. turned that down. I offered to start it in the driveway, turned that down.

Over the phone he had asked about a misfire problem that he heard on one of the youtube videos. I explained how my brother was chasing the problem and I thought it to be fixed. it had seemed to run just fine for me. He had replaced all the ignition, wires, etc. while chasing the problem so I thought it was 100% taken care of.

Well, the new owner gets home, goes out for a run. calls me about steering being hard. I explained how it was always like that and went into further detail about how my brother contacted latham and had a mechanic check it back over and that is just how it is. I also explained how I had asked about the hard steering here and others also have the same issue, after that all seemed good.

This morning I get an email saying the engine is bad. Bad #8 cylinder. It needs 2-3k worth of repair and he wants money back from me.

I honestly 100% thought the engine was good when I sold the boat. I really don't know how to proceed. I haven't written or called back yet because I'm lost as to what to do. The boat is 23 years old, the guy paid what I think is a pretty good price of $16,000.

Any advice is appreciated.

[onesubdrvr]

Tough situation, that's for sure,....

but couple of things come to mind after hearing your side of the story

1) you offered to start it and take it for a ride
2) you discussed the miss
3) typically all vehicles are sold as-is on E-Bay unless a warranty is stated
4) who knows what he did to find #8 cylinder was bad.

Not that I won't take his word for it, but to me sounds like you're right.

As a buyer, I would be pissed; 16k, I would expect to be able to use it (at least for the season), before I had to do any work, but again, it's his responsibility to make sure it's all good.

If you had any wiggle room, I would perhaps offer some kind of split with regards to the repairs, but wouldn't offer a refund or a return, again, pending the problem on the engine.

I would think anyone in their sane mind would thoroughly check everything out on a new to them used boat before taking it on the water (?)

Anyway, just knowing one side, that is my thoughts

Wayne

[Cuda]

I think you did what you could. If the buyer himself was worried about the things he now says is wrong, he should have come down himself to check it out.

He got a great deal for 16K. Did he say why he thought it would take 3 or 4 k to fix the miss? I could rebuild the entire engine for that much.

It's buyer beware. You weren't trying to pass it off as a new boat, or he would have paid $60+ and still not have gotten half the boat. I saw it and heard it run at Mt Dora last year. Beautiful boat. Your brother offered me a ride in it.

[VetteLT193]

I think you did what you could. If the buyer himself was worried about the things he now says is wrong, he should have come down himself to check it out.
He got a great deal for 16K. Did he say why he thought it would take 3 or 4 k to fix the miss? I could rebuild the entire engine for that much.
It's buyer beware. You weren't trying to pass it off as a new boat, or he would have paid $60+ and still not have gotten half the boat. I saw it and heard it run at Mt Dora last year. Beautiful boat. Your brother offered me a ride in it.

He said 2-3k, didn't say why but said he would have a mechanics statement if I wanted it.

It wasn't run much after Mt. Dora last year. It was in the same condition except dirty from sitting.

This is just stressful and frustrating for me because I really tried my damn best to be honest including firing it up and making the youtube videos. I didn't want any surprises on either end. I swear I can't win. :bonk:

[larry9901]

I just sold my (formerly my Brother's) 22 classic.

I tried 100% to be as honest as I could be. Before listing it on eBay I started it on the hose and posted video. Boat started right up, all seemed fine. I had no insurance on the boat and had not used it in a good 6 months. I told all this to the buyer.

After he verbally said he wanted it I slowed him down, asked if I could take more pics etc before he made the trip down from Michigan. I didn't want him to come all this way to find something off.

Buyer came from Michigan, turns out to be buyers buddy. Check was from another buddy. some red flags came up but it all seemed to work out. I previously offered a ride in the boat if he wanted it. turned that down. I offered to start it in the driveway, turned that down.

Over the phone he had asked about a misfire problem that he heard on one of the youtube videos. I explained how my brother was chasing the problem and I thought it to be fixed. it had seemed to run just fine for me. He had replaced all the ignition, wires, etc. while chasing the problem so I thought it was 100% taken care of.

Well, the new owner gets home, goes out for a run. calls me about steering being hard. I explained how it was always like that and went into further detail about how my brother contacted latham and had a mechanic check it back over and that is just how it is. I also explained how I had asked about the hard steering here and others also have the same issue, after that all seemed good.

This morning I get an email saying the engine is bad. Bad #8 cylinder. It needs 2-3k worth of repair and he wants money back from me.

I honestly 100% thought the engine was good when I sold the boat. I really don't know how to proceed. I haven't written or called back yet because I'm lost as to what to do. The boat is 23 years old, the guy paid what I think is a pretty good price of $16,000.

Any advice is appreciated.

Hey Bob,
I saw this post here and thought maybe I would display my side of the story. I'm surprised you went public with it:eek:

I also want to point out that I do not want to make a pissing fight over it. It's not my style. Really, it isnt:cool!:

I do have to admit, I was a bit upset at first. But, as time passed here I have cooled down.

Also, I didn't require a ride or need to see it run again because I did trust you when you said the mis was a ignition problem and has been fixed. and I believe your a credible guy!:wink:

I also mentioned that I was going to be in Texas and Mexico that week on business and that my friend would be picking it up because I didn't want to slow walk you. I didn't sense any hesitation from you so we proceeded with the deal.

Here is the problem,

After spending two days cleaning the boat up we decided to take it for a short trip. It was about a half hour or so. I didn't run the boat hard at all because I noticed at idle I heard a strange sound coming from the engine. And the stearing was extremely difficult.

Once I got the boat back home I did a compression check on all the cylinders. Number 8 has very little to no compression.

I don't know exactly what is wrong yet. But, I believe it is the intake valve because you can hear it hissing back through the carb when cranking.

It wasn't this bad before I took the ride, but it got worse real fast.

My thoughts are it is probably a blessing we found this now before the valve let loose.

The heads are coming off this week and I will then know for sure what the problem is.

Also, the subwoofer, and trim switch didn't work. But, that is no big deal. I bought a new switch from the parts guy here locally.

Bob, when you have a chance please forward me the cam card so I know what the correct lash should be.

And, I do believe that you didn't know this was a problem. I was just dissapointed because it was represented as a great boat with no mechanical issues (besides what was pointed out with the ram's on the drive) that should run for at least the season.

Let's keep this positive!:)

Larry

[Cuda]

Lack of compression indicates a bad intake valve or a hole in the piston. Did you take the valve covers off? You can start it up and feel the rocker arms. If an intake is loose, you can feel it right off the bat. I had a nut back off the rocker arms on my Minx, and I thought I blew the engine. Put a new nut on and fixed it.

[BUIZILLA]

this is the way problems should be handled

kudo's to both of you :yes:

[Donzi Vol]

this is the way problems should handled

kudo's to both of you :yes:

I agree. Glad this forum is here because what we often think are big mechanical problems can often be solved by the advice and experience from other members who have had the same problems.

Bob, don't worry about the situation. Knowing you, I'm sure that you're beating yourself up about it, but it doesn't seem like Larry is criticizing your character. If you all need a refere, let me know :wink:

[Phil S]

this is the way problems should handled

kudo's to both of you :yes:


+1

I'll bet a solution will be found soon to the satisfaction of each. Sometimes difficult, but always worth it.

[CHACHI]

this is the way problems should handled

kudo's to both of you :yes:
+2

Ken

[VetteLT193]

I didn't intend on this being a "going public" thing in a negative way. I believed you when you said there was a problem. I also believed that the boat was good when mechanically good when I sold it. I really wanted opinions on what to do because my head was swimming in confusion... and it still is.


Cam is crane 731, haven't had time to find the card yet but I'll look in a bit and send them on. It is easy to get the basics but I can't remember the whole part number so I have to find that first.

[VetteLT193]

I think this is it. http://cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=168731&lvl=2&prt=5

[FISHIN SUCKS]

+3 on Buiz's post.

I can totally appreciate where Bob is comin from on not wanting to have a deal go bad when you have the best of intentions. And Larry sounds like a resonable and forgiving buyer considering the situation. As a seller of one boat on ebay, our experience (buyer/seller) was positive (as far as I know, that was two years ago). But because our Donzi that I was selling wasnt perfect, I tried to cover every base so that someone didnt arrive and be disappointed. The buyer, Frank, told me I was too critical on the boat and that he felt he was getting a good deal. Sometimes it goes that way I guess.

Hope all is well for you too, you sound like a couple of reasonable guys, just my $.02

tom

[mrfixxall]

Before ruleing ouy a bad engine i would pull the valve covers and check out the valve trane,,could have a bent push rod,a Bad ROLLER LIFTER or somthing to that effect..

[Cuda]

Before ruleing ouy a bad engine i would pull the valve covers and check out the valve trane,,could have a bent push rod,a Bad ROLLER LIFTER or somthing to that effect..
That's why I said to run the engine with the valve covers off. If you're sure it's number eight, you only have to pull one, then feel the rocker arms.

[larry9901]

Well, my mechanic just called me to give me a update.

1) after spendingn several hours removing the exhaust, took so long because most of the bolts were so corroded and broke off in the head they were pressure checked and were fine!
2) upon removing the head it was discovered the exhaust valve for cylinder #8 was burnt.
3) also, cylinder #8 showed heavy rust.

My question is, why or what would have caused this?

And, as soon as I get back in town (Thursday) I will take pictures and post them for you guys to see. That's of course if you want me to.

See you guys as soon as I get back in town.

Larry

[VetteLT193]

With water I would think reversion but with the CMI's and the pretty high idle that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The whole issue doesn't make sense to me because it was running so smooth. What did you decide to do on the old fuel?

[BUIZILLA]

Over the phone he had asked about a misfire problem that he heard on one of the youtube videos. I explained how my brother was chasing the problem and I thought it to be fixed. Bob, I commend you on your integrity here, and your concerns,,,, every seller should be this way... with that said, there * may* have been a previous misfire issue that wasn't resolved, and a sea trial would have perhaps shown more of it.... it looks as if it can be worked out between honest parties.

[mrfixxall]

Well, my mechanic just called me to give me a update.

1) after spendingn several hours removing the exhaust, took so long because most of the bolts were so corroded and broke off in the head they were pressure checked and were fine!
2) upon removing the head it was discovered the exhaust valve for cylinder #8 was burnt.
3) also, cylinder #8 showed heavy rust.

My question is, why or what would have caused this?

And, as soon as I get back in town (Thursday) I will take pictures and post them for you guys to see. That's of course if you want me to.

See you guys as soon as I get back in town.

Larry


1) have him pull both heads! never just do one side, too many variances in parts like head gasket thickness and their could be more cylinders with rust in them..


2) those cmi headers are known for leaking around the flanges where the header meets the block..The welds develop pin holes and start to leak SO HAVE THEM PRESSURE TESTED !
unless your into repairing boats then eddie would have nover known about it..that F- UP costed alot of people alot of engines with as little as 20 hours on them..(CMI knows about it and will do nothing for you) but if it was a new header then their's some ground to stand on..

[larry9901]

Well, I just got home from out of town and was able to take a couple pictures of the cylinder head. Sorry for the poor quality, but I think it shows what I am dealt with here.

It's obvious from the heavy corrosion that this has been ongoing for awile.
And no, the fuel in the boat wasn't the issue, and no the backfire in the youtube video wasn't a ignition problem that was said to be fixed.
Enjoy
Larry

http://priuschat.com/forums/members/larry9901-albums-cabin-filter-picture4420-sdc11708.jpg
http://priuschat.com/forums/members/larry9901-albums-cabin-filter-picture4421-sdc11707.jpg
http://priuschat.com/forums/members/larry9901-albums-cabin-filter-picture4422-sdc11705.jpg
http://priuschat.com/forums/members/larry9901-albums-cabin-filter-picture4423-sdc11704.jpg

[mrfixxall]

Chitty,that was caused from the headers having pin holes ill bet.. looking at the valves at leaste their hp 50 heads and its a shame,,i just sold a low hour set:)

you will not get that cylinder clean, if you run it that way it will brake the rings.time to pull it..

listening to the videos the engine sounds good and i wouldn't have even guessed that that head came from eddie's boat..

i would like to see a pic of the cylinder wall of the engine in the boat..
good luck :)

[larry9901]

Chitty,that was caused from the headers having pin holes ill bet.. looking at the valves at leaste their hp 50 heads and its a shame,,i just sold a low hour set:)

you will not get that cylinder clean, if you run it that way it will brake the rings.time to pull it..

listening to the videos the engine sounds good and i wouldn't have even guessed that that head came from eddie's boat..

i would like to see a pic of the cylinder wall of the engine in the boat..
good luck :)

I'll get a picture of the cylinder wall when I'm at the boat tomorrow.

[BlownCrewCab]

It looks to me that the #8 header pipe had problems inside & out, right where they meet the flange is the same spot the two tubes come together (inner pipe & water jacket). from the looks of the rust "outside" the exhaust port as well as inside it seems the junction where the pipes meet the flange is cracked all the way thru. Nobodys fault (except the Mfr) and No they won't help. With any kind of aggressive cam that bad cyl wouldn't have sounded funny until it had a load and some rpm since it looks like it was still firing (otherwise it would have been douched clean). unfortunate that it showed up in the middle of a sale (sort of) but I don't see any Ill intent and I don't know either person. Just unfortunate:frown:

[BUIZILLA]

#8 exhaust valve is burnt adjacent to the plug

[Cuda]

I've seen valves burned much worse on engines that ran. I pulled the head off a six cyl Mustang and all six exhaust valves were halfway gone, and it still ran.

[mrfixxall]

I'll get a picture of the cylinder wall when I'm at the boat tomorrow.


check the other side, cmi redesigned their headers..heres a pic the newer design is on top and older on the bottom..you can see the firsc 1/2 '' or so is not welded to the flange,,thats how they corrected the header from not leaking into the exhaust port..



http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/swap-shop/419617d1276875458-cmi-headers-cheap-cmi-headers.jpg

[tmdog]

Well, my mechanic just called me to give me a update.

1) after spendingn several hours removing the exhaust, took so long because most of the bolts were so corroded and broke off in the head they were pressure checked and were fine!
2) upon removing the head it was discovered the exhaust valve for cylinder #8 was burnt.
3) also, cylinder #8 showed heavy rust.

My question is, why or what would have caused this?

And, as soon as I get back in town (Thursday) I will take pictures and post them for you guys to see. That's of course if you want me to.

See you guys as soon as I get back in town.

Larry


Looks like you were taken to the cleaners. Maybe the seller will make good and pay for the damages.:frown:

[handfulz28]

USED
AS-IS, WHERE IS
NO REFUND
NO WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED

Do these terms no longer mean anything these days? Am I the only one seeing a bad trend of buyers trying to shake down sellers AFTER a sale? And WITHOUT taking the opportunity to INSPECT IN PERSON either personally or by a professional BEFORE finalizing a deal.

Buyers are beating up sellers these days to get the best possible prices. I don't see how some can have the balls to then go back to the seller and ask for money back. :frown:

In this particular case, seems like a darn good excuse for the new owner to throw on a pair of aluminum heads...on his own dime.

:boat:

[Walt. H.]

Looks like you were taken to the cleaners. Maybe the seller will make good and pay for the damages.:frown:
FWIW
There's no reason to throw gasoline on a situation thats is under control and is being worked out rationally by the two gentlemen.

[tmdog]

FWIW
There's no reason to throw gasoline on a situation thats is under control and is being worked out rationally by the two gentlemen.


This is a forum. You have your opinion and I have mine. Maybe the shoe would be on the other foot if this happen to you.

[cutwater]

This is a forum. You have your opinion and I have mine. Maybe the shoe would be on the other foot if this happen to you.

If you had actually read the thread, you would know that "Need Opinion on boat sale" was a thread started by the SELLER, who was asking for opinions on how to handle the situation in a classy manner. It's clear from the thread that no one is trying to take anyone "to the cleaners."

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Here is a picture of the newer design CMI headers with what I think they call the cool tube which is designed to keep them from breaking at the junction of the inner and outer tubes. I have no idea if this is what possibly caused the problem here, but some of you mentioned the design difference. Bill

[mrfixxall]

Larry, i know you pressure tested the headers but i would hate to see you go through this again, look into where the tail pipe meets the header flange,if you see white spot's this would indicate reversion bur it would have been more then 2 cylinders..

Pressure test the headers again, fill the header with water then cap off one end, i like to use a garden hose and route the pressure towards the header flange towards the head..the pin holes in the welds bat be plugged by water deposits and or carbon and rust..While you have the header under pressure with the garden hose take a map torch and warm up the inner tube around the exhaust flange,,they may only leak under heat..

good luck :)

[Walt. H.]

This is a forum. You have your opinion and I have mine. Maybe the shoe would be on the other foot if this happen to you.
Engage your brain before putting your mouth in gear by reading all the previous post and also re-consider both things you said. This didn't happen to you either so your comment doesn't apply, even though you might be trying to relive a similiar situation that has once or twice happened to you as these things do happen to all of us during our life time from cars that have gone sour to house hold items and bad contractors that screw up a job.

If i've failed to read where the seller told the buyer go screrw and #@*% You! then you're right and i'm wrong and I apologize, but in this case I don't think so. We're all here to help not out, not stir the pot for some sick entertainment and I hope you'll agree with that opinion....

[Cuda]

Personally I wouldn't think of warrating a used boat engine. Buyer beware. If you want a warranty buy a new boat.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Here is a picture of the newer design CMI headers with what I think they call the cool tube which is designed to keep them from breaking at the junction of the inner and outer tubes. I have no idea if this is what possibly caused the problem here, but some of you mentioned the design difference. Bill

After George called me this afternoon, I remembered that the newer designed CMI headers have what is called a cool collar which you can see in the picture of my CMI headers. It is the expanded area where the exhaust double walled pipes start. Bill

[gcarter]

After George called me this afternoon, I remembered that the newer designed CMI headers have what is called a cool collar which you can see in the picture of my CMI headers. It is the expanded area where the exhaust double walled pipes start. Bill

This looks like a clever design. If there is a cracked weld, it will leak outside the exhaust pipe and not into the pipe. Also, the cool(er) water entering the individual header water jacket and w/the increased volume of the belled area should do a superior job of cooling the super hot exhaust pipe as it enters the individual header pipe.

[larry9901]

Personally I wouldn't think of warrating a used boat engine. Buyer beware. If you want a warranty buy a new boat.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

This has nothing to do with a warranty.

Call me old school or old fashioned, but what ever happened to integrity, accurately representing the item your selling? When someone tells you everything is fine and should run at least the rest of the year without any problems you believe them. I guess this falls under the “I’m old fashioned umbrella.”

Now please don’t misread this, I am not saying the seller does not have integrity. I am just saying that in general.

Also, someone mentioned here that buyers beating up sellers now to find the lowest price and then go back to the seller to ask for money back. Well, in this case this did not take place. I asked what it would take to have the boat and end the listing on ebay. Once I was told the price I said ok I’ll take it without haggle.

I know this is a tight knit community here and don’t want to have enemies.

But be certain, if I were to sell a boat, car, motorcycle or whatever. If there was a problem where I said there wasn’t or if a problem immediately arose after the purchase that was determined it was ongoing after it was said to be fixed without a doubt and without question I would absolutely make right of the situation.
But, thats just me though.

Now I understand there are people out there that try to get over on sellers after the purchase. But, this is simply not the case.

This is just my humble opinion. Time will tell what happens between me and the seller.

Either way, the boat is going to be fixed and hopefully will be able to enjoy it with what will be left of this short Michigan summer.

Oh, and I didn't have a chance to make it over to the boat today to check the headers again. I will be doing that hopefully Sunday.

Again folks, I am not saying the seller is a bad person or does not have integrity.
I was just using the above example how I thought just as a generalization.

Larry

[BUIZILLA]

Larry, when I bought my Criterion, the ONLY thing the seller told the truth about was the colors....you couldn't see the head bolt heads INSIDE the valve cover because the rust was so thick and chunky... 24k later on top of the purchase nut I got it where I liked it.... Bob is standup people, actually 99% of everyone here is... but you DID decline a pre-purchase inspection.. we all know you recognize that, and i'm sure Bob feels really bad, with that said I see an amicable solution between honest parties on the horizon, no need for everyone to beat up on either side..

[Just Say N20]

Sometimes things just happen.

I owned a Reflexx jet boat. I liked the boat, but didn't like the performance, so I removed the Mercury Sport Jet 90, and installed a rebuilt (by Mercury) 175 powerhead and 175 pump assembly. I was meticulous during every phase of the project, and once done I used the boat without any problems for around 50 hours.

I really wanted another Donzi, so I decided to sell it, and a buyer found the boat.

When I brought the boat home from storage in the spring, I noticed the left trailer light wasn't working. I did some quick testing, and determined it wasn't something simple like a burned out bulb, so I purchased new lights, a new wiring harness, and rewired the trailer. It's just how I am. I didn't want to sell something if I knew there was an issue with it. The seams were splitting on the seat bottoms of the front 2 seats, and the rear seat, and I had them reupholstered to better than new condition.

I believed that the boat was in 100% mechanical shape, and would provide hundreds of hours of trouble free operation if maintained correctly.

Shortly after the buyer used the boat for the first time, he called me and said he shut the boat off after running it for a half hour, and when he tried to start it the battery didn't have enough power to restart the engine. The battery was one year old, I had charged it before he picked up the boat, and I had never had this issue happen to me.

Thankfully he is a mechanical guy, and after replacing the battery (without any success), he pulled the flywheel off the top of the engine and found a couple burned wires. I never had an indication anything was wrong, and yet his first outing was a problem.

I sold the boat with 100% confidence it was almost perfect. I had gone out of my way to fix things I knew needed attention, and yet it failed during his maiden voyage. Boats are a bunch of mechanical systems, and as such, things are going to fail.

Sometimes stuff just happens.

[Cuda]

This has nothing to do with a warranty.

Call me old school or old fashioned, but what ever happened to integrity, accurately representing the item your selling? When someone tells you everything is fine and should run at least the rest of the year without any problems you believe them. I guess this falls under the “I’m old fashioned umbrella.”

Now please don’t misread this, I am not saying the seller does not have integrity. I am just saying that in general.

Also, someone mentioned here that buyers beating up sellers now to find the lowest price and then go back to the seller to ask for money back. Well, in this case this did not take place. I asked what it would take to have the boat and end the listing on ebay. Once I was told the price I said ok I’ll take it without haggle.

I know this is a tight knit community here and don’t want to have enemies.

But be certain, if I were to sell a boat, car, motorcycle or whatever. If there was a problem where I said there wasn’t or if a problem immediately arose after the purchase that was determined it was ongoing after it was said to be fixed without a doubt and without question I would absolutely make right of the situation.
But, thats just me though.

Now I understand there are people out there that try to get over on sellers after the purchase. But, this is simply not the case.

This is just my humble opinion. Time will tell what happens between me and the seller.

Either way, the boat is going to be fixed and hopefully will be able to enjoy it with what will be left of this short Michigan summer.

Oh, and I didn't have a chance to make it over to the boat today to check the headers again. I will be doing that hopefully Sunday.

Again folks, I am not saying the seller is a bad person or does not have integrity.
I was just using the above example how I thought just as a generalization.

Larry
Every boat I've ever bought I assumed would have problems. 3 years ago, I owned eight boats at one time.
I bought cars not expecting the seller to do anything if I found something wrong later.

I have no dog in this fight, it's between you and Bob, but I think he went out of his way to accomodate you.

Buyer beware.

[larry9901]

Every boat I've ever bought I assumed would have problems. 3 years ago, I owned eight boats at one time.
I bought cars not expecting the seller to do anything if I found something wrong later.

I have no dog in this fight, it's between you and Bob, but I think he went out of his way to accomodate you.

Buyer beware.

I understand buyer beware and all. But when you were assured that the boat is great, told you won’t have to open the hatch for “I think it was 2 years that was said”
Told everything works fine, you can drop the boat in with no issues. Then this happens, Along with other major issues not even mentioned here where do you draw the line? :frown:
I chose this boat from the seller based on the good reputation here on the forum.
I had my driver come all the may from Michigan to Florida with a check in hand for his asking price without any haggling and trusting him based on his reputation from this forum. Shame on me I guess:shocking:

Now I am giving the seller the total benefit of the doubt here. If he helps out based on his unknowingly misrepresentation of the boat that would be great. If he doesn’t than so be it.

I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt because I have not heard anything back yet.
I don't think the seller is a bad guy, I am not saying he is. Actually, I would like to have a beer with him some day in the future:)

Now moving forward I hope we can all not be upset, move on and talk about how bad to the bone this boat is going to be when it is put back together!!

[tmdog]

Good post Larry. We'll see what kind of stand guy the seller is.:wink:

[Cuda]

As far as I know Bob never tried to pass the boat off as brand new. I'd have a different opinion if I paid $60,000+ for the boat. but that is not the case.

[larry9901]

As far as I know Bob never tried to pass the boat off as brand new. I'd have a different opinion if I paid $60,000+ for the boat. but that is not the case.

Your right, the seller did not pass it off as brand new.


To your point about you would have a different opinion if you paid $60,000+. I see a major contradiction in this statement:wink:
What difference does it make if the price was $1,000 or $1,000,000? It's the principal that matters.

It's like saying if I paid $100,000 for something that was originally $200,000, would you then come back and say " I'd have a different opinion if I paid $200,000+? but that is not the case.

I'm not trying to argue with you:) Just friendly debate:wink:

Larry

[Cuda]

Your right, the seller did not pass it off as brand new.


To your point about you would have a different opinion if you paid $60,000+. I see a major contradiction in this statement:wink:
What difference does it make if the price was $1,000 or $1,000,000? It's the principal that matters.

It's like saying if I paid $100,000 for something that was originally $200,000, would you then come back and say " I'd have a different opinion if I paid $200,000+? but that is not the case.

I'm not trying to argue with you:) Just friendly debate:wink:

Larry
If it was used, it doesn't matter what the price. Used indicates it is not brand new and shouldn't be expected to be like a brand new boat.

[mrfixxall]

This looks like a clever design. If there is a cracked weld, it will leak outside the exhaust pipe and not into the pipe. Also, the cool(er) water entering the individual header water jacket and w/the increased volume of the belled area should do a superior job of cooling the super hot exhaust pipe as it enters the individual header pipe.


George, its still a chit design,now their taking a double wall and moving it out a inch or so..Now that inch will substain all the heated area and also the weight of the header will put a strain on that one inch section and possibly crack or even crack at the weld on the outter pipe:bonk:time will tell..

Now if they were to spend a little more time on the design of the header and added a sleeve over it then i would say it would last..

[larry9901]

If it was used, it doesn't matter what the price. Used indicates it is not brand new and shouldn't be expected to be like a brand new boat.

And I agree with you 100% The boat was never expected to be like new. As a matter of fact, not even close to new.

But it was expected to be as represented. Yes or no, Do you agree with me on that?

Larry

[Carl C]

In Michigan the buyer would have certain rights unless "sold as is" was written on the receipt. Also, it is better to test the headers by connecting them to regulated compressed air and putting them under water. It's much easier to see fine air bubbles. That's how I did my CMIs.

Hopefully it can be worked out between you two.

[mrfixxall]

In Michigan you would have certain rights unless "sold as is" was written on the receipt. Also, it is better to test the headers by connecting them to regulated compressed air and putting them under water. It's much easier to see fine air bubbles. That's how I did my CMIs.


What do i know?? i just work on the damm things:bonk::bonk::bonk:

[Carl C]

What do i know?? i just work on the damm things:bonk::bonk::bonk:

You know a lot. You amaze me sometimes. But the air testing method is easier and more effective IMO.

[larry9901]

In Michigan the buyer would have certain rights unless "sold as is" was written on the receipt. Also, it is better to test the headers by connecting them to regulated compressed air and putting them under water. It's much easier to see fine air bubbles. That's how I did my CMIs.

Hopefully it can be worked out between you two.

It was not sold "as is" and nowhere mentioned did it state "as is"

I hope it can be worked out.

I'm trusting we can come to some sort of amicable agreement!


That is interesting about the headers. I will have to see what version I have.

[Carl C]

Here is how I tested my headers. http://www.donzi.net/forums/showpost.php?p=511665&postcount=240

[mrfixxall]

You know a lot. You amaze me sometimes. But the air testing method is easier and more effective IMO.


I have done the air method several times,,sometimes it works and sometimes it don't..you cant heat a header with a map torch then drop it in a tote of water and watch for air bubbles,they just cool off so i use a garden hose then apply the water pressure which is up to 60 psi not 200 psi like my shop air compressor outs out(exploading pressure)..i like to test them with working water pressure and when i heat up the flanged end where the header gets the hottest from the exhaust they will expand and that's when you will see the water droplets..

So now it do it my way and don't waste no time finding out if the headers are leaking or not..


ok back to the trend :)

[Carl C]

I have done the air method several times,,sometimes it works and sometimes it don't..you cant heat a header with a map torch then drop it in a tote of water and watch for air bubbles,they just cool off so i use a garden hose then apply the water pressure which is up to 60 psi not 200 psi like my shop air compressor outs out(exploading pressure)..i like to test them with working water pressure and when i heat up the flanged end where the header gets the hottest from the exhaust they will expand and that's when you will see the water droplets..

So now it do it my way and don't waste no time finding out if the headers are leaking or not..


ok back to the trend :)

What oil should I run in my engine..lol. The main problem I see with your method is keeping the header exterior 100% dry while pressurizing them so that you will see that little tell-tale water spot. OK, back to business....

[mrfixxall]

What oil should I run in my engine..lol. The main problem I see with your method is keeping the header exterior 100% dry while pressurizing them so that you will see that little tell-tale water spot. OK, back to business....


The tell tail would be STEAM!!!

[mphatc]

I have a set of CMI E Tops on my Corsican, my engine had water reversion, caught during a routine inspection after the first run with the CMI's installed. Ateco and CMI were helpful to resolve the issue. Very gratiously I might add after they found my posts on another forum.

The issue with these failures and leaking is caused by the moment of inertia on the lower header elbow flange area where there are three welds. These headers are heavier than what one would expect, especially after adding the SS tubing and connections towards the transom plus filling them with water . . start running in waves and rough water the vertical impact of landing creates flex in the weld effected areas of the tubes, causing micro fractures . .

For big boats CMI was designing a tie bar to connect the port and starboard headers together with a connection bar. Especially recommended for big block applications.

Also, make sure your headers have the anti-reversion cone . . keeps water from wicking back to the exhaust port at low engine speeds and does not effect power.


Mario L.

[Cuda]

And I agree with you 100% The boat was never expected to be like new. As a matter of fact, not even close to new.

But it was expected to be as represented. Yes or no, Do you agree with me on that?

Larry
You would have to get a lawyer and a judge to define "as represented". Unless it was sold with a specific codicil that the headers don't leak, or that the cylinder was not rusty.

[joseph m. hahnl]

I just sold my (formerly my Brother's) 22 classic.

I tried 100% to be as honest as I could be. Before listing it on eBay I started it on the hose and posted video. Boat started right up, all seemed fine. I had no insurance on the boat and had not used it in a good 6 months. I told all this to the buyer.

After he verbally said he wanted it I slowed him down, asked if I could take more pics etc before he made the trip down from Michigan. I didn't want him to come all this way to find something off.

Buyer came from Michigan, turns out to be buyers buddy. Check was from another buddy. some red flags came up but it all seemed to work out. I previously offered a ride in the boat if he wanted it. turned that down. I offered to start it in the driveway, turned that down.

Over the phone he had asked about a misfire problem that he heard on one of the youtube videos. I explained how my brother was chasing the problem and I thought it to be fixed. it had seemed to run just fine for me. He had replaced all the ignition, wires, etc. while chasing the problem so I thought it was 100% taken care of.

Well, the new owner gets home, goes out for a run. calls me about steering being hard. I explained how it was always like that and went into further detail about how my brother contacted latham and had a mechanic check it back over and that is just how it is. I also explained how I had asked about the hard steering here and others also have the same issue, after that all seemed good.

This morning I get an email saying the engine is bad. Bad #8 cylinder. It needs 2-3k worth of repair and he wants money back from me.

I honestly 100% thought the engine was good when I sold the boat. I really don't know how to proceed. I haven't written or called back yet because I'm lost as to what to do. The boat is 23 years old, the guy paid what I think is a pretty good price of $16,000.

Any advice is appreciated.

You are all done with the boat. you don't need to do anything further.

(1) Buyer beware it is the responsibility of the buyer to determine there is something wrong. He could of done a compression test to determine the state of the engine.

(2) you have know idea what the guy did to the boat after it left you.
He could have rev'd it up to 4000RPM in neutral.

(3) you are taking his word that something is actually wrong with it.
A bad #8 what the Frig does that mean? $2000 to $3000 to fix?
Is he putting in a 383 stroker?

A bad #8 "I assume loss of compression". bad valve, bad rings, bad head gasket. Could be anything.

It cost about $300 for a rebuild kit for a small block +++ $200 for a big block. 20 hours of labor @$90ph if a shop does it, $000. if he does it him self.

Most warranties on used stuff , only covers the cost of parts .

It all leads to this one question.

Did you give him a warranty on the boat?????

[Carl C]

You are all done with the boat. you don't need to do anything further.

(1) Buyer beware it is the responsibility of the buyer to determine there is something wrong. He could of done a compression test to determine the state of the engine.

(2) you have know idea what the guy did to the boat after it left you.
He could have rev'd it up to 4000RPM in neutral.

(3) you are taking his word that something is actually wrong with it.
A bad #8 what the Frig does that mean? $2000 to $3000 to fix?
Is he putting in a 383 stroker?

A bad #8 "I assume loss of compression". bad valve, bad rings, bad head gasket. Could be anything.

It cost about $300 for a rebuild kit for a small block +++ $200 for a big block. 20 hours of labor @$90ph if a shop does it, $000. if he does it him self.

Most warranties on used stuff , only covers the cost of parts .

It all leads to this one question.

Did you give him a warranty on the boat?????

Not so fast there! If the boat was represented as having no major problems then the buyer has certain rights. Hopefully these two can work it out.

[larry9901]

I've seen valves burned much worse on engines that ran. I pulled the head off a six cyl Mustang and all six exhaust valves were halfway gone, and it still ran.

If this is the case with the mustang, and you've seen pictures I posted of the head off the boat. Surely then it isn't half as bad.

By all means you can have them back free of charge, I have no use for them as they are unacceptable for me. :wink: Just pay shipping.

[tmh]

I've been hesitant to enter this thread but I see many that want to pour some gas on a fire and I hope to help the situation rather than taking sides. I try to be objective and impartial and I hope I don't add fuel to the fire.

If I was selling a boat and I stated there may have been a problem but it appears to have been resolved then I would expect the buyer to do his due diligence. The seller did mention a potential problem which wasn't required. I don't believe the seller gave a warrenty of one season on the engine from what I've read. If the buyer had come to inspect the boat and found the compression off then the deal would have been put on hold. The problem would have been diagnosed and the seller would most likely have made a concession on the price. That didn't happen. If I were the buyer my best hope in this case would be for the seller to pay at best 50% of the cost of repairs. After the repair the boat should be worth a bit more than before the sale occurred as the heads have come off and been fixed. Knowing the heads were recently serviced makes the boat more valuable to a potential buyer.

When I looked at buying my 18C we (buyer and seller) identified that the power trim was acting up intermittently. As soon as I bought the boat the pump went bad. The seller, Smokediver, fixed the problem as he represented the boat as being in great condition. The seller took care of the repair, which I hoped he would do, but I realised I was at his mercy. He was an honorable seller and I appreciate his integrity.

If I were the buyer in this situation I would be hoping the seller would pay for half the repair. If I were the seller I'd probably consider chipping in a good $1000 towards the repair since the boat would have sold for at least a $1000 less had the problem been known at the time of the sale. As the seller the most I'd pay would be for the parts required for the repair. In reality any concession by the seller is gratuitous since there was no stated or implied warranty. Had I as seller represented the boat will last at least a good season of use I'd feel obligated to make some concession towards the repair. I'd be pissed at myself as a buyer for not doing a compression check on a boat of this age and I'd be happy if the buyer made any gratuitous payment towards the cost of the repairs.

Flame suit on for putting my nose where it doesn't belong, but I'm meddling in hopes of finding a reasonable compromise to a tough situation.
T.M. Hayes

[Cuda]

If this is the case with the mustang, and you've seen pictures I posted of the head off the boat. Surely then it isn't half as bad.

By all means you can have them back free of charge, I have no use for them as they are unacceptable for me. :wink: Just pay shipping.
I'm telling you the exaust valves were half gone. I didn't go back to the seller, I always expect something to be wrong with it, it's usually reflected in the price. I'd seen that boat, and heard it run. I think it was a steal, even if the entire engine needed rebuilt. It surely doesn't cost between 2 and 3 grand for one cylinder. You said the mechanic worked on it a half day an only got it half apart. First thing I would do is fire the mechanic and find someone who knows what they are doing.

[Cuda]

Not so fast there! If the boat was represented as having no major problems then the buyer has certain rights. Hopefully these two can work it out.
Where did you get your diplome as a lawyer?

[mrfixxall]

I'm telling you the exaust valves were half gone. I didn't go back to the seller, I always expect something to be wrong with it, it's usually reflected in the price. I'd seen that boat, and heard it run. I think it was a steal, even if the entire engine needed rebuilt. It surely doesn't cost between 2 and 3 grand for one cylinder. You said the mechanic worked on it a half day an only got it half apart. First thing I would do is fire the mechanic and find someone who knows what they are doing.



word!

needs to get the proper tools to handle the stripped and broken bolts out..
looking at the head i like like he got all but one out which shows signs of rust at the brake which also indicates that bolt was broken for a while :)

Now how about those pics of the cylinder ???

[larry9901]

word!

needs to get the proper tools to handle the stripped and broken bolts out..
looking at the head i like like he got all but one out which shows signs of rust at the brake which also indicates that bolt was broken for a while :)

Now how about those pics of the cylinder ???

Here is a pic of the cylinder. It has since been cleaned up and oiled prior to me taking the picture. They didn't know I wanted a picture of it when they tore it down. Also, who knows how much the rings cleaned up. Maybe when it sat, possibly it was at tdc??

Also, the price of 2-3k was an approximate. After you figure the cost of heads, gaskets, valve job, labor, and who knows what else you may run into etc etc.

I think I have a line on a lightly used set for like 900 bucks. I havent seen them yet though. I'll know by tomorrow.

It was probably time to be done anyways, it appears as if there is alot of time on this engine.

Also, fellas, come on, no need to get upset over this. I'm not even that upset and I am the buyer.

I never said or ever thought the seller was a bad person, I am just confused why the guy who owned this engine is getting so upset over this. I could be wrong though, but thats just the vibe I'm getting.

Lets get back on track and keep this positive.:)
Nothing good comes out of a pissing match.


http://priuschat.com/forums/members/larry9901-albums-cabin-filter-picture4437-sdc11747.jpg

[larry9901]

I've been hesitant to enter this thread but I see many that want to pour some gas on a fire and I hope to help the situation rather than taking sides. I try to be objective and impartial and I hope I don't add fuel to the fire.

If I was selling a boat and I stated there may have been a problem but it appears to have been resolved then I would expect the buyer to do his due diligence. The seller did mention a potential problem which wasn't required. I don't believe the seller gave a warrenty of one season on the engine from what I've read. If the buyer had come to inspect the boat and found the compression off then the deal would have been put on hold. The problem would have been diagnosed and the seller would most likely have made a concession on the price. That didn't happen. If I were the buyer my best hope in this case would be for the seller to pay at best 50% of the cost of repairs. After the repair the boat should be worth a bit more than before the sale occurred as the heads have come off and been fixed. Knowing the heads were recently serviced makes the boat more valuable to a potential buyer.

When I looked at buying my 18C we (buyer and seller) identified that the power trim was acting up intermittently. As soon as I bought the boat the pump went bad. The seller, Smokediver, fixed the problem as he represented the boat as being in great condition. The seller took care of the repair, which I hoped he would do, but I realised I was at his mercy. He was an honorable seller and I appreciate his integrity.

If I were the buyer in this situation I would be hoping the seller would pay for half the repair. If I were the seller I'd probably consider chipping in a good $1000 towards the repair since the boat would have sold for at least a $1000 less had the problem been known at the time of the sale. As the seller the most I'd pay would be for the parts required for the repair. In reality any concession by the seller is gratuitous since there was no stated or implied warranty. Had I as seller represented the boat will last at least a good season of use I'd feel obligated to make some concession towards the repair. I'd be pissed at myself as a buyer for not doing a compression check on a boat of this age and I'd be happy if the buyer made any gratuitous payment towards the cost of the repairs.

Flame suit on for putting my nose where it doesn't belong, but I'm meddling in hopes of finding a reasonable compromise to a tough situation.
T.M. Hayes

This is the kind of thinking I would like to see.:cool!:

I strongly believe noone here is out to get over on anybody.
We are all good people!

[Carl C]

This is the kind of thinking I would like to see.:cool!:

I strongly believe noone here is out to get over on anybody.
We are all good people!

I agree! Those cylinders might be OK. A valve job and new set of valves and springs would be a lot cheaper than a complete rebuild. The seller might be more apt to work with you on that too. I'd rebuild the heads, put 'em on and recheck the compression. And for the record, a warranty refers to a problem that occurs AFTER the sale!

[Cuda]

I guarantee the springs have maybe a season on them, so you won't gain anything by changing them. Carl, eplain to me how new springs will help the compression. If my mechanic came to me and said somewhere between 2 and 3 grand, I'd pack up what he had apart and take it somewhere else. That price is rediculous. Big block Chevy heads are a dime a dozen. Who told you $900? I'd have to put my foot so far up his butt his breath would smell like shoe polish.

[Cuda]

I agree! Those cylinders might be OK. A valve job and new set of valves and springs would be a lot cheaper than a complete rebuild. The seller might be more apt to work with you on that too. I'd rebuild the heads, put 'em on and recheck the compression. And for the record, a warranty refers to a problem that occurs AFTER the sale!

Umm, what do you think is the topic here?

Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

[handfulz28]

I strongly believe noone here is out to get over on anybody.
We are all good people!

I mean this in a respectable, debateful kind of way....but any time a buyer goes back to a seller in a private sale and asks for "consideration" for something that's identified AFTER the sale is concluded....is trying to get something over on the seller.

This kind of thing sets a bad precedent of entitlement. Everybody wants something for nothing and they want everything perfect but at a bargain price. And when something doesn't go their way, it's always somebody else's fault.

Now this is going to sting a little bit: Larry, you've said numerous times you don't believe the seller knowingly misrepresented the boat. You've said it's quite possible that he didn't even realize what was wrong or that anything was in fact wrong. Yet you still felt the need to go back and ask the seller for a concession.

Here's another line of thought: what do you say about a refund upon returning the boat? You know, just like how it's done on Ebay/Paypal. Do you think you got such a raw deal that you'd be better off starting over?

[yeller]

If I was selling a boat and I stated there may have been a problem but it appears to have been resolved then I would expect the buyer to do his due diligence. The seller did mention a potential problem which wasn't required. I don't believe the seller gave a warrenty of one season on the engine from what I've read. If the buyer had come to inspect the boat and found the compression off then the deal would have been put on hold. The problem would have been diagnosed and the seller would most likely have made a concession on the price. That didn't happen. If I were the buyer my best hope in this case would be for the seller to pay at best 50% of the cost of repairs. After the repair the boat should be worth a bit more than before the sale occurred as the heads have come off and been fixed. Knowing the heads were recently serviced makes the boat more valuable to a potential buyer.
+1 ......but should the seller be responsible for labor? Just because the buyer can't (or doesn't choose to) do the repair work himself, should that be the sellers responsibility?

The buyer declined to inspect the boat even though he knew there had been a previous problem. The seller thought he fixed all the problems and said the boat was a good runner. There is a bit of responsibility on both parties. As mentioned previously, had the seller checked the boat before taking it away, the problem would have been found (and I'm willing to bet the seller would have fixed it himself). BUT, the seller didn't do that and he took the boat. Now the seller has no control over what truly is the problem, or how to fix it.

If it were me, I'd pay 50% of the parts or get the buyer to return the boat so I could fix it myself.

[Carl C]

Cuda, the personal attacks are not called for or appreciated. We know you have am interest in this matter since you sold the motor originally. I won't post anymore on this. "Vette" has a good rep here and I think things will work out.

[larry9901]

Everyone please remember that it was not me that started this post.
This is why I did not want it to go public.

But I did feel the need to say my side. I feel I have been very calm and collective here.

It's a shame that a few people here were quick to jump and make me sound like the bad guy here.

Fact is, there is no bad guy.

I am surprised Bob has not said anything else.

But Bob has my contact information and I hope that he gives me the courtesy to follow up on this.

Until then, I probably won't post on this topic anymore.

When the boat is back together I will upload some pics to share.

Take care everybody.

Larry

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Everyone please remember that it was not me that started this post.
This is why I did not want it to go public.
But I did feel the need to say my side. I feel I have been very calm and collective here.
It's a shame that a few people here were quick to jump and make me sound like the bad guy here.
Fact is, there is no bad guy.
I am surprised Bob has not said anything else.
When the boat is back together I will upload some pics to share.
Take care everybody.
Larry
No Sh!t!!! Larry didn't start this thread, Bob did. I don't recall Larry asking for any money here either. He's just on the receiving end and trying to fix a boat that's not a hundred percent. If he gets a little help, okay. If not, okay too. It is what it is. When I bought our boat 2 yrs ago and the port motor blew a head gasket a month later, I wasn't going to go back to the dealer. What would he do anyway? Turns out the damn Mexicans that assembled the motor never torqued the head bolts to 68 ft/lbs like they were suppose to. 6 year old boat at the time, the repair was on me, sh!t happens.

[Cuda]

Cuda, the personal attacks are not called for or appreciated. We know you have am interest in this matter since you sold the motor originally. I won't post anymore on this. "Vette" has a good rep here and I think things will work out.
Like I care about your non-informed opinion. Don't you have some CD's to sell or something? Leave the wrench twisting to people who have done it. There is a picture of me about four years old helping my dad rebuild an Engish Ford. I've been working on chit all my life. My motto is if I can't fix it, it ain't broke.

[Carl C]

Like I care about your non-informed opinion. Don't you have some CD's to sell or something? Leave the wrench twisting to people who have done it. There is a picture of me about four years old helping my dad rebuild an Engish Ford. I've been working on chit all my life. My motto is if I can't fix it, it ain't broke.

I worked as a professional auto mechanic for 18 years before walking away from the career and starting a used media store.

Oh, and I specialized in heavy repairs; Automatic and manual transmissions, drive axles and...... engines.

[Cuda]

No Sh!t!!! Larry didn't start this thread, Bob did. I don't recall Larry asking for any money here either. He's just on the receiving end and trying to fix a boat that's not a hundred percent. If he gets a little help, okay. If not, okay too. It is what it is. When I bought our boat 2 yrs ago and the port motor blew a head gasket a month later, I wasn't going to go back to the dealer. What would he do anyway? Turns out the damn Mexicans that assembled the motor never torqued the head bolts to 68 ft/lbs like they were suppose to. 6 year old boat at the time, the repair was on me, sh!t happens.
Yes he did. What do you think he meant about consideration from the seller.
Only Chevy would put half in heads on the head bolts. Check out a small block Ford. The head on those bolts are 7/8.

[BUIZILLA]

$900 for a good takeoff pair of 088 heads is purty darn fair if the valves are inconel and the springs up to snuff...

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Yes he did. What do you think he meant about consideration from the seller.
Only Chevy would put half in heads on the head bolts. Check out a small block Ford. The head on those bolts are 7/8.
Okay, stand corrected, I recall something about 'consideration'. I guess I was getting at not seeing any specific dollar amount or any specifics regarding who would cover what (ie. labor or parts or whatever).

*****
As for the head bolts, had nothing to do with the size of the head bolts or stretching for that matter. The bolts were never torqued by the mexicans! I was able to get 1 1/2-2 full turns on every head bolt, and these bolts had never been touched since new (factory paint not chipped, virgin). Donzi/Mercruiser did not offer Fords in 2002 nor would I want them anyway. BTW, the head bolts on the starboard motor were just fine.
*****End of thread Hi-jack*****

[Cuda]

Okay, stand corrected, I recall something about 'consideration'. I guess I was getting at not seeing any specific dollar amount or any specifics regarding who would cover what (ie. labor or parts or whatever).
*****
As for the head bolts, had nothing to do with the size of the head bolts or stretching for that matter. The bolts were never torqued by the mexicans! I was able to get 1 1/2-2 full turns on every head bolt, and these bolts had never been touched since new (factory paint not chipped, virgin). Donzi/Mercruiser did not offer Fords in 2002 nor would I want them anyway. BTW, the head bolts on the starboard motor were just fine.
*****End of thread Hi-jack*****
The head bolts were rusty. Only Chevy would make such a small head on the bolt. I don't think they were even grade 8 bolts. I got most out by driving a 7/16 socket on them. Broke one socket, luckily it was a Craftsman and they replaced it without asking a question.

[Cuda]

I worked as a professional auto mechanic for 18 years before walking away from the career and starting a used media store.

Oh, and I specialized in heavy repairs; Automatic and manual transmissions, drive axles and...... engines.
Transmissions don't qualify as heavy repairs. Most can be fixed with what the call a "soft rebuild".
The first car I owned was a 64 Merc 390 with three in the tree. Took that transmission apart enough times where I felt like I had a zipper on it.

[handfulz28]

I don't recall Larry asking for any money here either.


It needs 2-3k worth of repair and he wants money back from me.

I'm glad the seller posted. Buyers need to take more responsibility for their purchases.

[HOWARD O]

Caveat Emptor, Larry. He went "public" regarding the buyer of his boat and asked advice from his friends. He didn't mention your name, you were anonymous to everyone until you popped in to let yourself be known. Please don't use the fact that he went public as an excuse to defend yourself as there really was no reason to do so.....as you were ANONYMOUS. :bonk: You should be ashamed of yourself for even trying that ploy.

I bought a boat, sight unseen, from a long standing member of this board. Except for having the engine in backwards (j/k), thankfully nothing else was unexpected. I say "unexpected" as can be of a 28 year old, used boat! But if it did have an engine problem and I had to throw a few grand at it, so be it! There is no way in hell I'd go back to the seller. If I had, I would hope and pretty much know that he'd tell me to give him a ride when I got it fixed! If you're buying anything used, with no warranty expressed or implied, I believe the honorable thing to do is to take your lumps. Personally, if I had bought a boat sight unseen, not personally checked out pre-sale, and to come back after the fact and ask for some kind of refund for a problem found after a sale, it would be a personal embarrassment. That would make me look stupid. And I sure wouldn't carry on with the "conversation" on a website forum that the seller has frequented for many years and has many friends. Especially when I was anonymous to begin with! Perhaps your ego couldn't stand him talking about you, Larry, even though NOBODY HERE KNEW WHO YOU WERE! I think it's pretty bizarre that you didn't keep it personal......he actually DID, as far as I can see. Did you think you'd post here, making yourself be known, and not be adverserial in the end? It's the internet! I would've been treating the seller with kid gloves, as he owes you not a thing. :boggled:

I'll give the seller the same advice as if the buyer were STILL an anonymous buyer. Vette, this guy had every opportunity to check out the boat. You offered a sea trial, offered to run the engine, whatever needed to be done before the sale. He could've taken advantage of those opportunities himself, in person. He could've had his "driver" do it for him. He could've arranged to pick the boat up at a more convenient date for him if he was unable to make the trip right away. You sold the boat in good conscience and provided all the pre-sale niceties anyone could hope for. Aside from the fact that it was out of your hands for how long? Who knows what went on? I would be telling him to pound sand, this burden is not on you.

[Cuda]

Caveat Emptor, Larry. He went "public" regarding the buyer of his boat and asked advice from his friends. He didn't mention your name, you were anonymous to everyone until you popped in to let yourself be known. Please don't use the fact that he went public as an excuse to defend yourself as there really was no reason to do so.....as you were ANONYMOUS. :bonk: You should be ashamed of yourself for even trying that ploy.
I bought a boat, sight unseen, from a long standing member of this board. Except for having the engine in backwards (j/k), thankfully nothing else was unexpected. I say "unexpected" as can be of a 28 year old, used boat! But if it did have an engine problem and I had to throw a few grand at it, so be it! There is no way in hell I'd go back to the seller. If I had, I would hope and pretty much know that he'd tell me to give him a ride when I got it fixed! If you're buying anything used, with no warranty expressed or implied, I believe the honorable thing to do is to take your lumps. Personally, if I had bought a boat sight unseen, not personally checked out pre-sale, and to come back after the fact and ask for some kind of refund for a problem found after a sale, it would be a personal embarrassment. That would make me look stupid. And I sure wouldn't carry on with the "conversation" on a website forum that the seller has frequented for many years and has many friends. Especially when I was anonymous to begin with! Perhaps your ego couldn't stand him talking about you, Larry, even though NOBODY HERE KNEW WHO YOU WERE! I think it's pretty bizarre that you didn't keep it personal......he actually DID, as far as I can see. Did you think you'd post here, making yourself be known, and not be adverserial in the end? It's the internet! I would've been treating the seller with kid gloves, as he owes you not a thing. :boggled:
I'll give the seller the same advice as if the buyer were STILL an anonymous buyer. Vette, this guy had every opportunity to check out the boat. You offered a sea trial, offered to run the engine, whatever needed to be done before the sale. He could've taken advantage of those opportunities himself, in person. He could've had his "driver" do it for him. He could've arranged to pick the boat up at a more convenient date for him if he was unable to make the trip right away. You sold the boat in good conscience and provided all the pre-sale niceties anyone could hope for. Aside from the fact that it was out of your hands for how long? Who knows what went on? I would be telling him to pound sand, this burden is not on you.
I agree.

[mrfixxall]

I agree.



ummmmm,, joe i think you owe howard a alternator!!!:yes:

[VetteLT193]

I hadn't posted because I was a) busy and b) I wanted to take step away from this and just think about it without reading anything to sway me one way or the other after getting your email last week. I don't think Larry has mentioned it in this thread but he has in fact asked me to pay for things that he considers wrong with the boat.

I have stressed for the last week + on what to do with this situation and I keep coming back to one simple conclusion. According to Larry they went out in the boat one time. So, had we gone for a test drive all of these problems that suddenly came up would have been exposed and would have been in my hands. Heck, had the friend/driver even looked at the boat when he picked it up most, if not all, of the problems would have been solved or at the very least still be in my hands.

the other oddity is Larry didn't actually buy the boat. It really was sold to someone else (a friend of Larry's is what I was told) but Larry is asking me to send him a check.

[larry9901]

I hadn't posted because I was a) busy and b) I wanted to take step away from this and just think about it without reading anything to sway me one way or the other after getting your email last week. I don't think Larry has mentioned it in this thread but he has in fact asked me to pay for things that he considers wrong with the boat.

I have stressed for the last week + on what to do with this situation and I keep coming back to one simple conclusion. According to Larry they went out in the boat one time. So, had we gone for a test drive all of these problems that suddenly came up would have been exposed and would have been in my hands. Heck, had the friend/driver even looked at the boat when he picked it up most, if not all, of the problems would have been solved or at the very least still be in my hands.

the other oddity is Larry didn't actually buy the boat. It really was sold to someone else (a friend of Larry's is what I was told) but Larry is asking me to send him a check.

Bob,
Good to hear from you.

Don't stress out or be upset about this.
I'm sorry if you are.

Heck, I am not even upset. None the least actually.
The only thing I was a little upset about was how I think some people blew this up and kind of took it out of context, as the intentions were not fully known. I should of realized that they are probably all your buds!

Yes, I did give you approximates on what was bad, and how much it might take to fix. Right or wrong for me to tell you? Who knows?
I just want to get the darn thing fixed and back together.
Oh, and yes, My friend and I bought the boat together. I guess thats where the confusion is.

But some people are right I guess. I probably shouldnt have responded at all since it is the internet.

Live and learn I guess.

Send me a email or call me.

Sound ok with you?

[tmh]

The buyer has been very nice about the issue based on his postings from what I've read. I've followed this from the beginning and I certainly haven't gotten the impression he is claiming he was screwed by the seller. The buyer has learned a valuable lesson for future reference. He isn't the one that started this thread either. The only hostility I've read is from list members against someone that has been polite, or attacking other list members and I'll probably be chastised as well for this posting, but I don't care in this instance. I find this list to be a tremendous resource and I hate to see someone attacked who has been very reasonable in the circumstances. I have to believe some of you would not be so aggressive if you followed this from the initial posting. FYI, I don't know the buyer or seller but this has been an interesting thread. Flame suit on!
T.M. Hayes

[fogducker III]

The buyer has been very nice about the issue based on his postings from what I've read. I've followed this from the beginning and I certainly haven't gotten the impression he is claiming he was screwed by the seller. The buyer has learned a valuable lesson for future reference. He isn't the one that started this thread either. The only hostility I've read is from list members against someone that has been polite, or attacking other list members and I'll probably be chastised as well for this posting, but I don't care in this instance. I find this list to be a tremendous resource and I hate to see someone attacked who has been very reasonable in the circumstances. I have to believe some of you would not be so aggressive if you followed this from the initial posting. FYI, I don't know the buyer or seller but this has been an interesting thread. Flame suit on!
T.M. Hayes

+1 :yes::wink:

[BlownCrewCab]

I think the two parties involved (Buyer & Seller) are handling this very well, The Flaming and Aggresivness is from & Between other parties and their opinions. It's certainly a "Unique" situation and Nobodies fault. Let them resolve it amongst them selves. :)

[mrfixxall]

Not a peep from either party the last few weeks,,so is it alive?

[Carl C]

The boat is running. I believe the head work was all it needed for now. I don't know how the situation was resolved and don't think it is anyone's business except the two parties involved! (no offense Fixx!). I did hear from the buyer and while he is not happy with certain things I am under the impression that it has been worked out. :)

[mrfixxall]

The boat is running. I believe the head work was all it needed for now. I don't know how the situation was resolved and don't think it is anyone's business except the two parties involved! (no offense Fixx!). I did hear from the buyer and while he is not happy with certain things I am under the impression that it has been worked out. :)


This trend went cold carl,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i asked a simple ? is it alive,i didnt need to hear the pop corn part of it....

Cool! he got it running again, that is all i needed to know :)

[Carl C]

Fixxy, the buyer sent me a PM which means that it was intended to be private. I was trying to respect that while passing on the minimal info that the boat is running. Some things turned out not to be too bad and some things he is not very happy about. I think it will work out between two good people :). See y'all in a week; I'm leaving for Alaska today. Need to cool off a bit ;) .

[larry9901]

Not a peep from either party the last few weeks,,so is it alive?

Hey Fixx,

Yes the boat is alive.

What Carl said is very accurate.

Although I still have not heard anything, not even a response from the seller. He must be busy or on vacation.

I still hope to hear from him, but highly doubt it.

[Cuda]

I don't know how Carl became the man who knows all.

[mike o]

I don't know how Carl became the man who knows all.Mike fixes all, Carl knows all, Cuda says all.......... Its ALL good.......:kingme:

[fogducker III]

Mike fixes all, Carl knows all, Cuda says all.......... Its ALL good.......:kingme:

That is funny stuff........:yes::wink::popcorn:

[Ed Donnelly]

That is funny stuff........:yes::wink::popcorn:


I concur............Ed

[Carl C]

Mike fixes all, Carl knows all, Cuda says all.......... Its ALL good.......:kingme:

That is funny stuff........:yes::wink::popcorn:

I concur............Ed

lol Stepping off the flight from Alaska today was like walking into a sauna. Had a close encounter with a brown bear.....What's that got to do with this thread? Not a gdam thing! lol

[mrfixxall]

Mike fixes all, Carl knows all, Cuda says all.......... Its ALL good.......:kingme:

not everything!! still trying to fixx fogdockers old lady :)

[fogducker III]

not everything!! still trying to fixx fogdockers old lady :)


good one.........:wink:

PS. Has she got rid of that nasty disease...?

[mrfixxall]

good one.........:wink:

PS. Has she got rid of that nasty disease...?


you mean the little ones you gave her? ya i shaved her box ! :)

[fogducker III]

you mean the little ones you gave her? ya i shaved her box ! :)

:eek: I am surprised she let you go there, I got rid of her because of her sex change, but if you are OK with that, all the power to you.....:wink:

[mrfixxall]

:eek: I am surprised she let you go there, I got rid of her because of her sex change, but if you are OK with that, all the power to you.....:wink:


the sex change part you are referring to was the breast reduction,,those baby's are nice and firm now..or you could have misunderstood her,she said the change of sex meaning going from you to me was incredibly better:yes::)

[fogducker III]

the sex change part you are referring to was the breast reduction,,those baby's are nice and firm now..or you could have misunderstood her,she said the change of sex meaning going from you to me was incredibly better:yes::)


man, you are a legend in your own lunch time aren't you...? :wink:

You realize you will wake up from this dream one day don't you...?

[Cuda]

man, you are a legend in your own lunch time aren't you...? :wink:

You realize you will wake up from this dream one day don't you...?

Can your old lady cook rice?

[fogducker III]

Can your old lady cook rice?


So now you are just following me from post to post...? Get a life Joe.................

PS> My old lady can actually speak English, can yours?

Oh, it is past your medication time BTW.....:wink::popcorn:

[Cuda]

So now you are just following me from post to post...? Get a life Joe.................

PS> My old lady can actually speak English, can yours?

Oh, it is past your medication time BTW.....:wink::popcorn:

Come on down and spoonfeed me. You have harrassed my from post to post. How does it taste? I got a life, it's giving you some of your own chit. It's ok for you to ask if my girlfreind can cook rice? That was totally uncalled for and childish.

[fogducker III]

Come on down and spoonfeed me. You have harrassed my from post to post. How does it taste? I got a life, it's giving you some of your own chit. It's ok for you to ask if my girlfreind can cook rice? That was totally uncalled for and childish.


I was just curious, most Ornamentals can't cook rice.........:popcorn:

[mrfixxall]

Come on down and spoonfeed me. You have harrassed my from post to post. How does it taste? I got a life, it's giving you some of your own chit. It's ok for you to ask if my girlfreind can cook rice? That was totally uncalled for and childish.


Cuda, im not taking anybody's side here first off but i have noticed that you have made some wise ass comments to several members on this board..Some have been wrenching, me and fog have been at each other throats about his x old lady.. Just to let everybody know it's all a joke between us and their is no hard feelings what so ever..
in fact i just got off the phone with jeremy and he is a really cool guy for being canidian(ha ha jk) so i suggest try getting peoples phone numbers and talk to them before you stick the knife in any deeper..Theirs a bunch of stand up members on here and some day i hope to meet them..mean whyle go find some good good smoke and mellow out..

and thats my o2! :)

[chrisc2]

Boy what an interesting thread. I have been gone for a bit and am catching up just now. Great to see the backbone is still here. I also appreciate an open forum!
That said, This BS from "Larry" is something to behold. That's where I am on it. I wish him well in his future endeavours.