Alpha owners want to go faster?

[Donziweasel]

I'm well aware of the history and D18 had nothing to do with it.
He has taken the initiative to do something that few(or none?) have done on this board. And instead of interest and support he gets thrown under the bus by many of you.


I have apologized to 18 and will leave it at that. Marlin is right, there is a lot of history with the maker of the drive. While honesty was a factor, the abuse directed at members (and it was alot of members) was almost a bigger factor. Not just here, but many places as well. Many people remember this.

I don't think anyone has a problem with 18. After what happened in the past, I think everyone is a little leary of the drive and company. 18 did not know the history behind the company when he purchased his drive. It is not his fault.

I do believe this drive vs. an Alpha SS or even a Bravo w/ -Imco deserves to be explored. Supposedly this drive has "beefed" up internals. I believe 18 reached his speed goals, which are comparable to an SS. Now the question becomes longevity. Will this drive stand up behind a Classic? If it does not, will the manufacurer stand behind his warranty?

[Cuda]

Now the question becomes longevity. Will this drive stand up behind a Classic? If it does not, will the manufacurer stand behind his warranty?
If you can find as SS drive, it won't be under warranty by Merc either. I just question a guy that knows more than the bevy of engineers at Merc.

[mattyboy]

when I first got the bug I remember talking to a guy who was deep into go fast stuff and was very knowledgeble.

he said speed = $$$$$$ and he said every MPH you want to go faster = $1000 bux as an average

I think most would sell their souls to the devil to get that in real life

a 7K investment for a 7 mph ish increase, I am sure some have sold even more and not seen that return. what other 7k investment can be done that will return those numbers???? bravo shorty??? new?? used??? the swap to a bravo and a shorty and all the little things that come along with it would be more than 7K wouldn't it?? used wouldn't come with a warranty anyway.

warranty doesn't bother me so much any thing that is built for hi po or racing usually comes from the mfg'r with very limited or no warranty at all.
what would worry me would be parts availability in the future if these are custom parts.


how may volvo owners would pay good ching for a working e drive for the chance to pick 4-6 mph knowing that if it goes there's no fixing it.

[Kirbyvv]

I always heard the first 10 mph of speed gain is $1000 per mph, then after that it goes up exponentially.

[mattyboy]

I always heard the first 10 mph of speed gain is $1000 per mph, then after that it goes up exponentially.

Not sure if it holds true for the first 10 mph or if it holds true for a benchmark like upto 90 mph or the service envelope of the hull??
maybe more a rule of thumb for performance upgrades that are non motor related in a stock setup?

there are always exceptions to the rule of thumb

[Sweet Cheekz]

there are always exceptions to the rule of thumb

Correct, like often its way more than 1000/mph :garfield:

Parnell

[mattyboy]

Correct, like often its way more than 1000/mph :garfield:

Parnell


Parnell

yeah but after you have done the way more than 1000/mph thing

the :( goes the other way round :) when you hold the throttle down :yes:

it all depends on the boat too if i had a stock 496 ho 22 and wanted high 70's low 80's a shorty might do in the 1000/mph ball park but if i wanted 10 mph from mid 70's to mid 80's I am at another ball game where the tickets are much higher. another example I have a mid 80's 22 shorty and 540 or something blue my next 5 mph are not going to be cheap never mind 10 mph

[Sweet Cheekz]

Aggreed, 10 mph in any non step v bottome is very expensive and it rarely ever reflects the fact that the boat really should be improved also strength wise which almost never gets done. My saber went from originally 84 to 102 and I did a year of hull improvements to make it strong ebough for that increase
10 mph is a ton
Parnell

[Carl C]

donzi18 classic, you have been quiet. Any updates?

[donzi18 classic]

No updates been really busy with work and havent had much time to get on the water. I am going to order a 23p hydromotive quad 4x here soon. When i ran 78 MPH the day DickB was out on the water with me and i tried his 25 mirage. well i was tinkering in my garage and pulled off my flame arrester cover and checked my throttle to see if it was opening all the way. And i found that it was only opening 3/4 throttle and couldnt figure out why it would only turn 5000 RPMs didnt matter what prop i put on it. So there is a good chance that i could have seen the magic 80 MPH that day but now i just have to wait a bit. It would not turn over 5000 RPMs though but when i get my new prop i will do some testing and get back on here.

[BigGrizzly]

Stop, That hydro will be too small re try Dick's prop,

[donzi18 classic]

Hi guys. Been gone for awhile do to a blown motor. The old 383 400 hp blueprint engines motor the rod bearings let go when I finally had gotten 80 mph. Now I ordered a patriot performace 383 500 hphas aluminum heads intake. I also bought lightning headers due to the big cam in this motor. I finally got enough time on it that today I went for a rip and seen 85 mph on gps.the rlc shortened drive is still working perfect and is probably the best upgrade that I have done on my boat.

[Just Say N20]

Congratulations! And I applaud you for coming back and posting time and again after all the nonsense posted in this thread. Certainly not the community's best foot forward.

I am just about to install and new 430 hp/ 486 ft lbs torque engine in my 16. I really wish there was someone who would provide a similar shortening for the old school Volvo 270/280/290 units. Not that I could afford one at the moment, but my ventilation plate is about 2" BELOW the bottom of my boat! No speed loss there.

And we all know the Volvo 290 is about as hydro-dynamic as a a watermelon.

Keep us posted.

[MR MAGOO]

Wow, what a wild ride! -Just read all 18 pages, so cool to read the replies from Big Grizz, he was quite a guy.:frown: So glad to hear the super shorty Apla has not only worked but held up to the 383 for some time. Really appreciate the update.

Kurt

[donzi18 classic]

I will keep everyone posted as to how it keeps going. Rlcboats.com has a new site up and has this drive in kit form. Rich has helped me and has answered all of my questions and has told me setups that do really work.without his advice I probably wouldn't be where I am today.his customer service has been great and couldnt ask for any better

[donzi18 classic]

Just drained the drive lube and it is as clean as it went in.the rlc shortened alpha is working flawlessly and I couldn't be any happier with the performance and durability of this drive.

[joseph m. hahnl]

You'll have to post your Specs :yes:

[Moody Blu']

hey guys, ya know me. Ive done a lot of crazy stuff with my boat and never listened to any of the nay sayers. I remember when I wanted to put a hood scoop on my boat, everyone said no... I did it and then other followed...

yall need to understand that what you fear is what you need to step into... the unkown is a great thing to go into and I applaud d 18 for going for it...

I also applaud triple digits... perhaps he needs to work on his communication and I use to be the guy who would flip out on people when I wasnt understood... perhaps his lies were not lies to him and the truth was twisted into a lie. ive seen all sorts of scenarios when **** like this happens and then the person just flip sout and gets on everyones cases.... no one takes responsibbility for egging the guy on to flipping out and he looks like the jerk well i say F-u---C---K-----Y---o----u to those people...

Havent any of you learned anything from Randy- god rest his soul- i shed a tear when i read his posts on this thread, man I miss him. It made me proud to read his posts because when i was doing different things with my boat and getting bitched at by others randy was always there to be like keep going dont let them stop you... That meant so much to me and I wish more people were like him :***********( damn i just poured from my eyes. The funny thing is that out of all the members on this forum and many others he is more the likely the TOP DOG of wrenching..

Guys he worked for Honda R&D, you know how he got that job????? he beat honda as a privateer and honda wanted him because Not to many poeple have beaten manufacturers in professional racing. HE DID. He also did oil testing for major oil maufacturers, mobil one to name 1, he built a motor for them put mobil one in it, drained it and then ran it at 5k for 120 hours and then it blew up... mobil one said he didnt build the motor good enough... they built one did the same thing and it blew up way earlier then 120 hours... He was my guru I was his apprentice.


CUDA, you got a lot of immature balls to be talking that way to griz. you said" you dont care if griz worked for honda" your daddy built cummings diesels... Wow, you reallly are a freaking douche. immature one at that.... Go look within yourself to figure out why you must act like a little freaking kid and try to bash one of the best guys we ever had on this forum... because you have issues you dont even know you have to talk that crap.


hey triple D why dont you make a shorty volvo upper you wont havemany customers but I will definately be a co designer gunea pig for you... Id rather have a shorter upper then raising my X

Or how about a some type of adapter plate for a volvo upper gear casing to allow a merc shorty on it???

[joseph m. hahnl]

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/y/U/F/M/l/o/tango-face-surprise-md.png

[Carl C]

Randy (Grizz) always had kind words. Cuda has been banned from every boating forum I know of and while not technically banned here there is a reason he is gone now.

Triple Digits had big time PR problems. He is notorious on all of the forums. I urged him to get professional help for his web site and PR work and it looks like he finally did. His site is very well written now and he even admits that the triple digits project came close but never hit 100 mph. He still has a lot of work to do to fix his reputation.

[Moody Blu']

well it doesnt surprise me that cuda was banned... I mean he is an old timer on this board and he was cool for a while but something happened to him at one point and he was just all of a sudden on a rampant rage all the time... I sort of remember it happening a while back...

Sound slike triple digits has a lot of apologizing to do... the thing is a lot of people on the boating forums are grown up adults with the maturity of a 7 year old and they own 200K+ boats so even if he does apologize hes probably gonna have some BS still but you know what? its better to apologize and be civil about it then not apologize...

I know plenty of mechanics that suck ass typing and communicating but they sure know their stuff... so triple digits really has to understand the whole deal with the internet and not take ANYTHING personally

good luck to him...

I actually contacted him about trying to do a shorty upper volvo.... and he responded and said he can do it... however I do know the volvo shafts are a lot stornger then any merc shaft so I am thinking the material used needs to be as good if not better then volvo and that may be hard to find if he has to make custom shorter shafts?

[Just Say N20]

I actually contacted him about trying to do a shorty upper volvo.... and he responded and said he can do it.

I would think he would just use an existing Volvo shaft and shorten it, then cut new splines or whatever into it.

If you pursue this, please keep us posted. I know of someone else that could benefit from this type of project :)

[MR MAGOO]

The Volvo is a very durable unit but incredibly inefficient. -My old 83 18 2+3 had a stock 260 Volvo Penta 280T (power trim) the boat ran 58 mph, (24 Volvo SS Ultra prop) several yrs later I installed a 350hp 355" motor. the boat ran 58 mph. (same 24 Ultra) Several more yrs later we bought a new MX 6.2 377 Merc package. The boat ran 58 mph with the Ultra and Solas 23. Glassed in and re cut the transom, installed a new Bravo and the boat runs 70gps (speedo 74)

The Volvo was like dragging an anchor.

Kurt

[Moody Blu']

hey magoo, dude how about switching props lol. I know volvo drives that hit 80mph+
ill let you know about the drive situation. it wont be for a while

[MR MAGOO]

Tried many props, the boat just seemed to hit a wall at 58. -Been playing with performance boats for decades, like the durability of the Volvo but never had one that actually ran fast.

[Moody Blu']

how am I at 62mph with a 24P prop? feel bad for you

[mike o]

70 gps (74 speedo) what prop? Thanks.......:kingme:

[MR MAGOO]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]

What max rpm and gear ratio?

[mike o]

18C/ 6.2L 377 /B1 1.65 / 5250 max rpm. Same as you, except maybe the drive ratio

[MR MAGOO]

My prop slip calculator says 26 pitch at 10% slip. My boat is running a 25 Mirage Plus.

[mike o]

[ QUOTE=$originalposter]{$pagetext}[/QUOTE]Thank you Sir, I have one also, but Ive been using a Laser II 25p.

[DickB]

d18 c picked me up at my dock yesterday for an afternoon of boating in his ride. Perfect day, not a cloud in the sky, and mid week the lakes were near deserted. We are on a chain of lakes, and with yesterday's wind the surface was different on every lake. Comparing to my own 18C 350 MAG FI which is a 60+ mph boat, his ride was a hoot. With two of us in the boat, nearly full tank of gas, hot and humid, the boat did 82.0 GPS best run of the day, and 80+ anytime the throttle was opened. I remember when first driving mine, running at a 2/3 throttle at 45 mph or so, then nailing it, the acceleration felt spectacular and top speed exhilarating. He let me drive his boat, and the experience is similar but amplified - at 2/3 throttle and about 60 mph (which is wide wide open on mine) then hit it and then you accelerate crazy fast to 80+. Still runs as smooth as mine at 60+. Great fun - puts a big smile on the face. My boat has a windshield; with no windshield on his the air hits you in the chest as well as the face and at 80+ it feels like your shirt is going to get ripped off. Quite a ride.

He's hit 86 or 87, I forget which, and is looking to see what it will do this fall as the air gets cooler.

[Just Say N20]

Very, very impressive. Sounds like the TD shorty has some significant performance benefits. Way to go.







Still wondering about an old school Volvo shorty. . . .

[Scott Pearson]

I took the windshield off my 18 and gained just over 8MPH, Then I removed the front lifting ring and gained another 2 MPH! I couldnt believe it! So I took off all 4 deck vents and mounted them on the transom...This forced the air down and gave me great stern lift and I picked up 12MPH!!!

I didnt want to stop there so I took the dash light switch and changed it over to a 1966 chevy floor mount high beam switch and low and behold!!! 16MPH!!!!! I also mounted woopie cushion under all the seats and everyone in the boat can jump up and down and make funny fart noises...I think I can gain another 2-3 MPH by doing this!

I will let everone know how I make out with other planned modifications....:eek:

[Just Say N20]

Scott, I'm missing your humor here.

It appears to me that you are suggesting ridiculous modifications with amazing speed gains, with the implication that Dick B is not accurately reporting the results he experienced riding in a boat that has a modified drive.

I'm not sure what Dick would stand to gain by doing so.

If this is not what you are implying, and are just having some fun, sorry I read more into it than was there.

[Scott Pearson]

Just having some fun. Im not implying anything.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Scott! The most impressive gain I got was pulling up the anchor:propeller:




http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/farsh/farsh1011/farsh101100003/8152261-3d-render-of-anchor-underwater-picture.jpg

[Scott Pearson]

HAHA....its amazing what kind of MPH you get when thats put back in the boat!!:wavey:

[Just Say N20]

I thought my GPS was pretty light, but it must weigh like a thousand pounds. Just putting it on board cost me 12 mph! :embarasse

[Ghost]

Lol!

[mike o]

It never leaves the barn.......:wink:.........:kingme:

[Scott Pearson]

Ok Mike....did we need to go down that road???:tooth::p

Yes removing the GPS is a great Idea!!!! I need to try that one!

[mike o]

Water, been waiting for a friendly show down between sharp vee and round vee bottom 18's with the same power..........;)

[DickB]

"Very, very impressive. Sounds like the TD shorty has some significant performance benefits. Way to go."

Let's be clear - the drive itself produces a 5-7 mph gain alone. d18C also has about a 200 hp advantage over my stock '99 at 300 hp. The combination yields an 80+ mph any day of the week and 86-87 under ideal conditions.

For me, the drama regarding the drive builder is just noise. I'm interested in the results achieved with hp, prop x dimension, and prop choice. This is the Donzi Performance Talk thread, is it not? What I am interested in is what alternatives are there to archive the same or better performance at similar cost. So, if I a wanted to take my 60+ stock boat to 80+, what should I do - supercharger? 383? Bravo + Imco shortened? Combination of what? d18C has one answer. What are the competitive answers? Not theories, but executed. What does it take to reliably hit 80+ in a Classic 18?

[Just Say N20]

DickB, I only know of one other 18 Classic that can run in the high 80s (Steve), and I haven't seen him around here in a while. I don't know the specifics, but I'm thinking he has a Bravo (or Imco) shorty, and north of 600 hp (supercharged).

Parnell has a 16 and a GT21 that would qualify him as a "been there, done that" guy. The 16 has an Alpha SS and over 500 hp. The GT21 has, well, a LOT of hp, and a shorty.

I'm hoping my 16 will hit 70, realizing I'm working with a pretty inefficient (but very robust) Volvo 290 drive. I'm hoping 500 ft/lbs of torque (@ 4,300), and 440 hp (@5,300) is sufficient to make good things happen. But my goal has never been to make a crazy fast 16. I want something that will cruise effortlessly at 45 - 50 mph.

[A2VeeDub]

So what was the final x-dimension of the finished project? This is measured from the lowest point of the "Vee" at the transom to the propshaft centerline with the drive fully trimmed down, correct?

For that matter, does anyone know the x-dim of a stock '72 2+3?

I read through the whole thread and there are several measurements thrown around but I am a little unclear of the exact final dimensions.

I have a whole spare alpha upper and was thinking of trying to do something myself like this.

I redid the transom in my '72 2+3 and fitted an alpha about three years ago. I lined the drive cutouts up about the same, but I can't garuntee I didn't change the x-dim some already. I do know the motor is as high as it can go without hatch mods. The spark arrestor and exhaust risers touch the hatch a little already.

Thanks for any help,

Bryan

[katanna]

You want your drive to be down but not all the way. Most drives when all the way down, will have a negative propshaft angle which helps you get on plane. Raise your drive up a little so the prop shaft is level with the bottom of the boat. Then you will measure from the approximate center line of the prop shaft to a straightedge such as a level coming off the bottom of the boat. Ultimate would be around 4.5 inches. My stock measurement on my Minx is 7.5, which is too deep.

Steve

[osur866]

Yes Bill been busy but pop in from time to time, ok my set-up
Whippled 383 dyno'd right at 600 HP @ 6,000 RPM, with Bravo -2" shorty runs high 88-89 any day full fuel, best of about 92 with me and 1/2 tank with a stock Bravo 32p, I like the handeling of a worked over 29p M+ better than the 4 blade but the 3 blade is 2 mph slower account I turn more RPM's wih it, I think if I labbed a 32p Bravo I could pick up a couple more but honestly 90 in an 18 is a hand full and not for the faint of heart, it's gotten my attention a few times, plus it looks stock and sounds mostly stock until you get into boost is good enough for me and I don't wanna loose the good handeling I have with the 3 blade. If you planning on upping the HP with a blower a Bravo and -2" is the only way to go and keep the drive alive. My .02 Steve

[A2VeeDub]

Ultimate would be around 4.5 inches. My stock measurement on my Minx is 7.5, which is too deep.

Steve

Thanks for the clarification on the x measurement. That makes a lot of sense about leveling the prop shaft.

What do you mean by ultimate around 4.5 inches?

Also any other info on different x dimensions on classic 18's and the results?

Thanks,

Bryan

[katanna]

Thanks for the clarification on the x measurement. That makes a lot of sense about leveling the prop shaft.

What do you mean by ultimate around 4.5 inches?

Also any other info on different x dimensions on classic 18's and the results?

Thanks,

Bryan

Ultimate would be the best all around trade off. It allows for increased speed with less drag and the ability to use more of a surface piercing prop and still be able to get on plane without too much effort. Any higher and getting on plane could be a challenge. Any lower and speeds will go down.
An alpha ss would be the ticket except that you need to add a sea water pump and through hull pick up because they are prone to clogging. Also very hard to come by. Have run several behind 407 small blocks and they were great. The next option would be a bravo shorty. Then you will sacrifice some of the horsepower to turn it. Everything has a trade off. Bravo shorty and 400-450 horsepower would be ideal. I plan on putting 400 through my alpha, but I have throttled many offshores through racing and can make it last a little longer.

Steve

[A2VeeDub]

Thanks for the info. I will need to get out and take some measurements of where I am now. Unfortunately that means putting the battery back in while it is 20 degrees out, since the drive is up right now.

I was actually thinking of modifying an alpha upper like TD did. I have a spare upper, a lot of alumimum welding experience, and access to a machine shop.

I know his project was questionable to many and the reliability/durability definitely comes into play, but for me it is something inexpensive to play with that I can always change out if it breaks since I have an extra.

Right now I top out at ~63mph at 4600 rpm. I have 100 shot of Nitrous that gets me to about 70mph and 5200 rpm.

If I could get those numbers up about 4-6 mph on and off the bottle that would be great. Ultimately I would love to see 70 off the bottle, but I think its a stretch with the current motor.

[katanna]

When you get the drive down, leave it that way till spring. The drive should stored down to increase the life of the boots. They rot faster when stretched in the up position.

[A2VeeDub]

Makes sense about the boots. Thanks for the advice. I just replaced them last season.

[DickB]

So what was the final x-dimension of the finished project? This is measured from the lowest point of the "Vee" at the transom to the propshaft centerline with the drive fully trimmed down, correct?
Bryan, at post 80 I measured the drive when it was first installed - 3-1/2" from the bottom of the hull to prop shaft center.

[jstrahn]

What an impressive thread. Just read it cover to cover.

An awful lot of good information mixed into all the BS.

[XMETAL]

Truly AMAZING! Thats all I can say. I didnt read the whole thread but scanned a few pages and called about one of these drives. When I spoke to Rich and by no means am I attempting to pass judgement. This is just my opinion. He made me feel like I was talking to a used car salesman who was very vague. When I asked about performance differences between an alpha and his drive he immediately stated 10 mph more from his drive. NOW THATS A BOLD STATEMENT! So my response was "and youre going to put that in writing?" His answer was no. Smart but how can you tell me that Ill get 10 mph yet you only know that Im building a Donzi Minx? Im sorry but a smell BS on this one. I hope Im wrong and whoever bought one of these drives is more than happy with performance gains and reliability.. If this is the case can someone inform me more on my concerns because Im getting ready to cut open my transon and Its a toss up between an Alpha and a Bravo XR?

[CHACHI]

XMETAL, I had a Minx, with a 350 MAG, stock. With the Alpha and a 21 cleaver it ran 62 MPH. Changed the lower unit to an Alpha S/S and it ran 62 MPH.

No difference. Stay with the stock Alpha unless you are going to run big HP.

Ken

[A2VeeDub]

I haven't checked on this in a while nor have I had time to mess with my boat yet. A bunch of other stuff got in the way, as usual.

I will let you guys know of any progress or results.

[Just Say N20]

So Moody Blu, did you ever move forward as a test for the shortened old style Volvo drive?

The more I read, the more I realize how inefficient they are. I have 430+ hp, and almost 500 ft lbs of torque, and can spin the Solas 23 to 5,300 and the best I have seen so far is 65.2 on the GPS.

Rootsy got his 16 running 80 with similar hp running the SS lower. . . .

Things that make you go hmmmmm.........

[osur866]

Bill, ya thinking of a re-rig with an SS?

[Just Say N20]

No. The cutout for the Volvo 290 is substantially larger than any Merc cutout I have ever seen.

Making the switch would mean pulling the engine, filling the transom, repainting the outside of the transom, cutting it for the Merc, and potentially having to redo the front engine mounts, which are solid and custom made for the Volvo engine height.

There is a plate out there that "adapts" a Volvo to a Bravo, which would make more sense. If I had another $10K to spend (I most certainly don't!) I could go to a bravo shorty, add hydraulic steering, and be running in the mid-70s.

My boat is WAY fun as it is right now. It does what I designed the package to do. It cruises easily; 3,500 @ 50 mph.

I don't think the Ski-Sporter is a very good starting platform if you are trying to put together a fast offshore boat. I think the 18 is a much better starting point.

I might be trying an Ultra 26 next spring. If the 26 behaves like the 24 I ran, that might get me in the upper-60s.