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Greg Guimond
04-23-2010, 06:06 PM
Have you ever found yourself purchasing a "magic" prop? Last year I had to buy this one as it had a "magical' history.

mikev
04-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Spill the beans why is it magic love those black magic voodoo stories

Greg Guimond
04-23-2010, 06:17 PM
I kept looking at that prop, thinking, a prop with that history would need to end up on a unique boat. Something a bit different, with some history to it but with a look to the future. Kept looking at all the cool projects that you guys have developed over the many years wondering how I could maybe sneak in something unique. Hmmmmmmmm. It had to be a 16. Well maybe the prop was just magic to me, but it had been used by a gentleman who owned a 16 and broke the magical 80MPH on GPS with it. 80 in a 16 in "current" times seemed to be a pretty unique achievement.

Tim Morris
04-23-2010, 07:56 PM
Well maybe the prop was just magic to me, but it had been used by a gentleman who owned a 16 and broke the magical 80MPH on GPS with it. 80 in a 16 in "current" times seemed to be a pretty unique achievement.


Naw. Donnelly done this years ago. Ask him what prop will do the job.

mattyboy
04-23-2010, 08:10 PM
magic props are only made left Handed :p

BlownCrewCab
04-23-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm sure there are several 16's in the U.S. that have enough motor to do 80mph easily, it ain't motor thats Lacking, It's Balz, obviously this generation of 16 owner has some common sense (not saying Ed didn't) but Motor isn't the problem. It's mostly setup. Some guys think they can just stick a hot 406 or what ever in a 16 and think "I'll be over 80 no problem" until they ride in it and reality sets in and their bung hole tightens up just going 65, and every 1 mph for the next 15 is scarier than hanging on to the shuttles rocket booster for a launch knowing you'll never come back. I had a 16 with a 408 and the motor never turned more than 4500rpm (capable of 6K) cause "I" (the total on the water Speed Freak) was too Scared. Setup IS Everything, and the Magic Prop Is part of that setup..

Now, Whats so special about this one???? Was it Geooooo's???

Greg Guimond
04-23-2010, 08:41 PM
Last time I checked the only guy doing 80 in any 16 in 2010 on this board was Parnell aka Sweet Cheekz.

Back in 2006 an ad was posted on this board for another 16 that broke 80 back then. Here is the ad.

06-02-2006, 03:58 PM
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: miami
Posts: 85
Donzi-16' Baby Donzi Outboard
one of the original 200. 1974 owned since 85 and gone through several times. currently rigged with 96 200 evinrude.less than 100 hours on entire motor. not ported but the 3.0 has 2.7 heads and 225 carbs. bobs nosecone and torque tamer. multiple props for different running. 4 blade for violent hole shots and acceleration. 26 raker for fuel economy and 26 chopper for the rooster tail from heaven. 100% predictable on any pump gas. hydrolic steering. 32 gallon tank custom mounted. transom redone and psychotically reinforced. foot pedal. march wheel with CRT. hull modified with 7" pad meticulously grafted into place.custom bade B brackett. white with blue stripe,blue interior. almost prefect condition boat. tonneau cover and custom full cover. brand new $3500.00 south florida trailer custom fabricated with 18 poly rollers. boat is incredibly stable at all speeds. no chinewalk. 82mph benchracing on gps. (with me only, almost empty tank and a little tailwind) 76 every time with passenger and full tank. very unique and possibly the fastest and most stable baby in existance. pampered garaged covered doctors toy. 12,500.00 miami hardly ever come to this site so email me.

mattyboy
04-23-2010, 08:46 PM
younger is in that neck of the woods too

but he HAS 2 MAGIC PROPS

Greg Guimond
04-23-2010, 09:55 PM
Two, one, some, none ............

mattyboy
04-23-2010, 09:59 PM
well bolt on the magic prop and show us some numbers ;)

Conquistador_del_mar
04-23-2010, 11:12 PM
Have you ever found yourself purchasing a "magic" prop? Last year I had to buy this one as it had a "magical' history behind it.

Is the prop a Hydromotive QIV? It sure has that look. Bill

farmer tx
04-23-2010, 11:49 PM
That looks like Rootsy' prop.

Walt. H.
04-24-2010, 12:06 AM
Greg,
I understand the feeling, I have Geoo's old gold tall flame arrestor / air cleaner and it worked a little magic for me. :wink:
Best of Luck,
Wal

Ed Donnelly
04-24-2010, 06:25 AM
BlownCrewCab. It took me years and years of gradual changes to get to the speeds I reached.. This is why I respect Geo so much.. The twin turbos were the last change in my quest for maximum speed I made over 50 changes, some worked some didn't...............Ed

Greg Guimond
04-24-2010, 02:00 PM
Now that I have a prop, I needed a boat so I decided to reach back to when I was just a....ahem, a touch younger and grab a 16 weedeater :yes:

I can see them heading for the exit :outtahere:

Notice in the second photo, under the rubrail it says Drakes Creek Marine. Can anyone offer any type of background on who might have owned the hull when it was kept at Drakes?

Greg Guimond
04-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Why a wacker? Like most folks it has to do with past memory's and a general back to the future theme for the project :cool:

At this point it becomes clear that I neither have the time or the expertise to actually take the project forward, so I enlist the services of a master fabricator who shall remain nameless for the moment. Suffice to say that there will be a LOT of cooperation and communication to progress the concept. Should be a lot of fun. Not up to par with some of the incredible stuff done on this board but all of those provide a good dose of inspiration :wink:


But first ............off with its head !!

Greg Guimond
04-24-2010, 04:48 PM
The donor's foil tag ..........16 Baby (Outboard) Hull #63 - 1972

This little sidebar foil ID session generated a spirited set of posts under the post title -Help Identify This Donzi Hull

BlownCrewCab
04-24-2010, 07:11 PM
In the Mid 70's Brownie bought us a 16' Manta, It's Basicly a 16 Donzi bottom with minute changes to the deck, we allways had a 90hp Merc 6cyl on it and it went mid 50's. when we got rid of it(around 1980) a guy bought it and put a 2.4 Merc on it, It was He!! on water, went high 70's and handled like a dream. the outboard versions aren't all bad, some are Very fun/tough/memorable boats....I could go on and tell stories about it (but Brownie may read this :) )

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 06:02 AM
If "Brownie" is who I think it is CrewCab, that is pretty cool :yes:

I took some additional inspiration from this ad for what might have been the nicest 16 OB Baby ever restored. It is cruising somewhere in Canada now but has never been located again.

From: Frank
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:08 PM
To: Guimond, Greg
Subject: RE: Donzi 16 OB

You are right, but I wanted to keep it original. I sold it for 22K

30 gal. Fuel tank ( new ).Full canvas cover plus Cockpit cover.Ritchie compass. Sea Star HI PERF. Hydraulic Steering with hi-performance Hydraulic hoses by Mayfair Products. Bennett trim tabs system. Accon recessed bow light and popup cleats. Windline removable transom ladder. Bluewater electrical switches. Marine upholstery by Miami Prestige July 2002. Glass work and Awlgrip paint job by A-1 Fiberglas works July 2002. Burl wood Instrument panel by Ultra Panels. Matching steering wheel. All electrical cables replaced with Ancor copper conductors tinned marine grade 105-C (UL) July 2002. All fasteners were replaced with Phillips Stainless Steel 18-8 grade fasteners in July 2002. Sea volt deep cycle AGM battery and Gil battery box. T-H Pro HI-JACKER Jack Plate. Full U.S.C.G. Safety package.

TRAILER
2002 Continental trailers, customized features , Aluminum with S/S Hardware.

ENGINE
135 H.P. Mercury Optimax (new) including Mercury Marine extended warranty totaling 5 years to the buyer. SmartCraft system instrumentation--- 23" PITCH Laser II propeller

PERFORMANCE
Top End : 5500 RPM. Speed 54 MPH.
Cruising : 4000 RPM. Speed 40 MPH.
Fuel Consumption: WOT. 9.6 GPH---AT 4000 RPM. (cruising) 4.4 GPH.

Price ----------------------------- $ 19,500.00

FOR INFORMATION CONTACT: FRANK MEDINA
DAY TIME PHONE---( 954 )
HOME---------------( 305 )
E-MAIL---------------marine.com (E-MAIL-------------------@marine.com)

HIGH LIFE
04-25-2010, 12:03 PM
Greg, you should remove the windshield, for less wind resestince ! We should get together some day and compare boats. HIGH LIFE

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 02:03 PM
Thanks Walt for the kind words but any part from GEOO is not just magic but mythical!

High Life, that windshield is long gone but the windshield was a factory option as shown in the photo below-

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 02:11 PM
Hull restoration begins. Ground and reinforced strakes, reinforced bottom with slight alteration :wink: New transom installed with 1 1/2"" Coosa and 1/2" XL marine plywood from Greenwood Industries.

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 02:19 PM
In go new stringers and bulkheads ..........and the hulls sides get strengtheners glassed in. We also added a little something extra in the keel :thumbsup:

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 04:00 PM
As the project progresses, I start to think about overall balance and cg so for kicks we throw a sling under the bare hull to see what the cg on the hull alone is. Also, given the heavier motors that are the norm today versus 38 years ago I get some photos from fellow board members of a Baby or three at rest with modern power. Here is board member RPD's at rest in pic #2 and then an unknown OB hull in pic #3.

Greg Guimond
04-25-2010, 10:18 PM
And here is Andy D's that he swapped out OMC V4 power for big Mercury 225X power. He has the stock gas tank location up front and the weight of a jackplate which I think is another 40lbs.

Andy generated a lot of discussion under the post titled - Donzi 16 OB Horsepower Questions -check it out.

Greg Guimond
04-27-2010, 08:39 PM
Here is the start of the reinforcement of the new transom, single knee and lateral first. Later we will add two additional stringer knees. I also want to modify the splashwell so we do an overlay of the deck to eyeball the possible options for later in the build.

Greg Guimond
04-27-2010, 09:26 PM
We turn back to the hull bottom. All of these decisions become a compromise in one way or another but giving serious thought to blueprinting the stock bottom. Here it is stock ...........

mattyboy
04-28-2010, 06:16 AM
I think more and more the 16 bottom was worked on and modified sometime along the way even before the stop in production
those inner strakes look much longer then the ones on my 16.

I have a list of questions including that one for Walt Walters when he comes to the dustoff. He was the key designer of the 16 and most of Don's early boats.

might not be a bad idea for you to get up to the dustoff Greg

you can clearly see the difference in the strakes here they end way more than 22 inches from the transom.
Greg what year is that 16 you last posted on the straps and what hull number?
have you confirmed your inner strakes are the same measurement? the air born one looks more like the pic i posted

Just Say N20
04-28-2010, 10:28 AM
I didn't measure mine, but you can see they end almost 4' before the transom.

mattyboy
04-28-2010, 11:49 AM
I didn't measure mine, but you can see they end almost 4' before the transom.


Bill ,
same as mine, same as the brochure boat I would be interested in sweet cheeks that is the latest production skisporter I know of being a 79.

I would also be interested in the measurement on a baby 16. The one pic Greg posted the air shot looks like it is from the guy in the Caribean who has a mid 1980's donzi 16 outboard NOT! but I can't confirm that is the boat in the pic.

I have noticed that when Donzi "stretched" a design they lengthened the inner strakes to about 2 feet from the transom

18 and 22 from the 16
hornet II and III from the hornet

another question for Mr Walters

mattyboy
04-28-2010, 12:55 PM
ok the last pic Greg posted the air shot is the 1987 donzi 16 outboards discussed in length on scream and fly (Greek mafia) it is not a donzi 16 outboard of any kind as it has no well, and donzi made no 16 footers at all during the 80's
so we should leave it's bottom out of this

http://www.hi5.com/friend/photos/displayPhotoUser.do?photoId=553683638&ownerId=19704860&albumId=21515965

HIGH LIFE
04-28-2010, 04:20 PM
mattboy, Just went out and measured mine, 1976 #151. Strake ends 21" from transom. Michael "HIGH LIFE"

mattyboy
04-28-2010, 07:29 PM
so now we need a 76 ski sporter owner to measure their inner strakes, it is very well possible they used a different bottom on the OB Baby or it could be possible that they reworked the bottoms of all the 16s sometime in the mid 70's

the tape will tell

for the record mine and bill's 16s are 1967 hull 409 and 410 the red 16 I pictured is the 69-70 brochure boat

Thanks

Sweet Cheekz
04-28-2010, 07:43 PM
My boat is in Grand Haven so when I get back out there in a day or two I will measure mine. I never flipped my boat during the remodel The bottom was the only thing that didn't really need anything
Parnell

Greg Guimond
04-28-2010, 08:25 PM
Matty,
You are correct, the 3rd photo is Greek Mafia's converted I/O 16. I posted it because it was a cool shot :shades: that happened to show strake patterns with some resolution. The photos below are of my project hull. Like HIGH LIFE the inner strakes are 21" from the boats transom.

Just Say N20
04-28-2010, 08:31 PM
So, you're creating a pad bottom?

I believe Ed had a pad on his 100+ mph 16. Should be very interesting.

Greg Guimond
04-28-2010, 08:54 PM
Thanks, Just Say N20. I have a plan, but I also have "The Scientist" running some calcs. Here is what he wanted off the transom amongst many other math facts to run through the abacus :boggled:

Greg Guimond
04-28-2010, 09:14 PM
"The Scientist" has a lot of expertise in this area and he also wanted some running shots of the 16 OB Baby so we send him these to consider. At this point I should say that I have lifted a lot of content for this build, and can seldom remember who should be credited. Sorry for that in advance.

We are trying to get a feel for angle of attack given various wacker weights and fuel tank locations.These two pics both have stock gas tank locations, the first is a newer 150 motor and the second is an older 140 motor but obviously with a passenger. Then the third is actually an I/O that was converted with a bracket and a V6.

Just Say N20
04-28-2010, 09:21 PM
It will be interesting to see what "The Scientist" comes up with.

I half considered lengthening the inner lifting strakes on my boat, but then I remembered, I have the Magic BigGrizz prop that I haven't even run yet, and it was supposed to make the boat run really well.

So I decided to leave it alone.

Greg Guimond
04-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Then I lay over some dimensions.....as you can see I am no axelkloehn! More like a big kid with a Crayola!! Andy D and his wife allow for a concept overlay to be drawn.

Greg Guimond
04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
Just Say N20, all this stuff certainly falls under the "no guarantess from the management" so for the moment I have my :crossfing:

More later, as the "Master Fabricator" and I do a bunch of mock ups, with faxes flying back and forth and cryptic emails with descriptions finally turn out a design approach for Surface Tension. Clint is a very talented guy and is up to my pie in the sky ideas for the deck :lightning:lightning:yes:

mattyboy
04-29-2010, 07:08 AM
looks like a nice project with some great possibilities.

wondering if they changed the bottom around 71 when they started making the OB ???

I can see why the OB sits higher in the water now

Greg Guimond
04-30-2010, 11:19 PM
Thanks Matty. At some point I stumbled upon this Australian splash of a 16OB. Turns out that it makes for a good sketch base for the old crayola.

First - as is 16OB
Second - hmmmm
Third - we might be onto something here. From a post back in January 2010 - To that point, here is an Australian version of the 16 Baby, but with some guys wacky idea of turning it into a bench seat rumbler ..........those Aussies are a wacky bunch I guess.

Greg Guimond
05-01-2010, 08:28 PM
The project had initially started with a somewhat misguided idea of fabricating a removable bench to integrate with the lounge seating of the 16 OB Baby. I had given some thought to fabricating the removable bench in such a way as it would look factory and be super lightweight. The photo below gives a very rough idea based on another members efforts. I always thought this might be cool so we drew up quick fabrication sketch for the bottom mount.

Greg Guimond
05-01-2010, 09:16 PM
I had also been following and taking some key design inspiration from onsubdrvr in photos 1 and 2 below as well true perfection from the mystery owner's boat shown in the last photo below. Amazing work.

Check out onesubdrvr's ideas under the post title - 16' Bench Seat

Greg Guimond
05-01-2010, 09:50 PM
The design is coming together now and Clint and team start to lay out the options with masking tape. Measure thrice, cut once !!

Greg Guimond
05-02-2010, 07:39 AM
Now I turn my attention to the rear of the boat. I am trying to stay with the Back to the Future retro theme. I'd like to stay with a look that the factory might have turned out 40 years ago, but with tasteful updates. Here are some shots that I used to think things through.

The Critter has always been one of my favorite boats ............
I wonder if a fab into a rumble seat like pic 2 could be done ............
Pic 3 is a mock up of where I'd like to take the design .............

Well still lots of work to do :yes:

Greg Guimond
05-04-2010, 05:48 PM
The deck gets sliced to move pieces around ........no turning back now. As you can see in the third photo, the height of the actual back of the bench seat may become a problem. I am sure that the factory drivers bucket seats are higher then the height of the donor lounge seat, especially considering the fact the rear lounge section has a radius or dome. This will put the highest portion just where we don't need it, in the middle.

Not sure what to do on this just yet :confused:

Greg Guimond
05-04-2010, 09:17 PM
Deciding on how far back the bench should be from the dashboard is also a compromise. The more space alloted to the front bench, the less available to the rumble seats. I figure that the rumble seats will be used mostly by little people, so we decide to go with 25"x25" cutouts, and then line up the other pieces of the deck. Based on some site research, current owners comments, and live modeling, we pick a number to go with. Who knows what the final outcome will be ergonomically speaking as there are still kinks to work out.

Just Say N20
05-04-2010, 09:48 PM
This will be interesting to follow.

You are a brave guy. Just the type needed to make this work.

Parnell was the master of the sawzall and turned his 1+3 into a 2+2 master piece.

Sweet Cheekz
05-05-2010, 05:41 AM
Yeah, I went thru a lot of blades and a lot of glass. Greg your project is very interesting. Fun to see how you think outside the "boat" Looking forward to a lot of updates

Good luck

Parnell

Greg Guimond
05-07-2010, 05:34 PM
Thanks guys for the kind words. It is certainly a lot easier to create the concept and start, then it is to finish!

Here is the first step in the "puzzle" .......

Greg Guimond
05-08-2010, 02:46 AM
With the puzzle now laid out in human scale, I have some problems to contend with. The first is fuel tank size and location. I think I need a large fuel tank as we can't get premium fuel on the water where I boat. With that in mind I will need to carry enough 93 octane to at least get through a weekend when filling up on land if I decide to go with big power. We initially installed 4 bulkheads in the hull, two of which are shown in red with the one closest to the transom at 33" forward. We can either put a large tank in between bulkhead #1 and #2, or we can mount a tank forward of bulkhead #2 similiar to the location of the tanks that came from the factory which would really help balance the transom weight.

The second problem is the lack of any real storage. Given the bench seat design concept, I'll loose any floor locker. I plan on opening up the area under the bow so that area could house a floor locker. Not that easy to get to but could hold the anchor and life vests.

I have an idea :idea: Maybe we install the tank as outlined in yellow, then install ANOTHER, 5th bulkhead. Hopefully Clint agrees :wavey: Then the sliver shown in blue can serve perhaps as a small floor locker that can hold wallets, cell phone, keys and the like. It could be hinged so that it flips forward toward the bow and would be readily accesible to both driver and passenger with no contortions required. It would be about 20" wide between the stringers but not sure how long or deep. Any thoughts on the subject always welcomed. I will need to get another Center-of-Gravity "sling" result with the fully fabricated deck laid loose on top of the hull as well to help determine the placements.

Sweet Cheekz
05-08-2010, 07:30 AM
Greg What distance is it between bulkhead 1 and 2? I put a 62 gallon tank in mine and I can measure how long it is this weekend. We could take a pretty good guess as to the size of the tank with that measurement. If you wanted a bigger tank than that I would suggest removing the bulkhead forward and reinstalling it as needed over two tanks. 2 tanks would be more expensive, more to go wrong and theres the issue of how to feed one to the other.
Just my .02

Parnell

mike o
05-08-2010, 08:05 AM
You should make a plug when your done.:kingme:

mattyboy
05-08-2010, 08:22 AM
greg,

that first pic you posted with the driver behind the wheel looks like the plantiff in a case against a Kennedy cousin.

the old blue dot special

just the facts ma'am, the story you have just seen is true the names have been changed to protect the innocent

DUM DA DUM DA

LMAO

Greg Guimond
05-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Guys, when you are building a weedeater concept amongst this group you have to be careful with identities LOL lest you get "plugged" as Mike O mentions :uzi: Parnell, the distance between # 1 and # 2 bulkhead I know is 68". I am in London now for work so not exactly sure of the width between the stringers but I think it might be around 22" if that sounds about right? I believe there is a small rise in the stringer so that there could be a small step in the gas tank. It would all help but my biggest concern is having tooooooo much weight aft. I always reach back to the various elders that have commented on the forward OEM tank location on the 16 being FORWARD of my 2nd bulkhead. If you can let me know what your tank length and width is for the 62 gallon yield that would be a great help. Right now, I am favoring the floor mount glove box concept.

yeller
05-08-2010, 04:09 PM
You could always go with more than one tank to get the size you need. On my 16, I installed 2 tanks in the floor (separated by a bulkhead) and switched between tanks as necessary. I ran the back tank most of the time and filled the front one only when I was going to be out for a long time and didn't want to have to stop and fill up.

Greg Guimond
05-08-2010, 04:18 PM
I have been thinking through the rumble seat concept and trying to get a visual together. Rumble seat is a "bit" of an overstatement, as I started with trying to engineer a true rumble seat with flip and slide hardware, but could not get my "vision" to match my mechanical drawing capabilities :frown: so I think I have to give up and go the easy route. Anyway, I'll try and be a bit more descriptive with a the attached photos. Think of the hatch in the open, or up position using the hinges that you see. Now envision the hatch with a slant that would make it comfortable as a seat back, perhaps a 10-12 degree slant back? Now envision the hinges removed and let the entire hatch drop down into the hull with the bottom edge dropping into a stainless channel which means the bottom edge and a section of the hatch up top at the deck bridge would rest against an abrasion point that would scratch the gel over time unless there was some type of backer product that would stop that from happening. The product could be countersunk and attached mechanically, or perhaps glued via epoxy but the goal would be to protect the gel or paint from scratching over years of use. The chosen product can't be rigid as it will have to be formed to a radius albeit slight.

Greg Guimond
05-08-2010, 04:46 PM
Well, time to sling some glass ..........:yippie:

Greg Guimond
05-08-2010, 05:31 PM
Ideally, here is where the floor mounted "glove box" might line up. In front of it would be a larger floor storage locker and then behind it might be the 5th bulkhead and the gas tank from 33" to perhaps 60" instad of 68" ??

(sidebar) one of the great things with this site, is it allows you to publish and sort out your strategy as you roll through a project like this. Thanks to the owner for that. Helps a LOT !!

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 02:17 AM
I may also regret not lowering the bench seat height. Clint and I have been emailing on it and one of the possible solutions is to take the storage locker that would have been under the bench seat, and stretch the length. We would then sacrifice the storage aspect, but sink down the seat base to add some height and support to the seat back. I thought about doing the upholstery in such a way that it would be higher then the deck, but I am trying to maintain a "factory" look and smooth lines. I think I can use the existing leading edge of the bench in place and use it as for more thigh support which might be more comfortable?

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 05:17 PM
Here is the original deck before we decided to make the project much different ............

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 05:21 PM
And here are three shots of the flipped deck after the jigsaw puzzle of the Bench Seat concept began to come together............all the balsa core was removed and replaced with divinicyl(sp). The 16's had cored decks but no coring in the hullsides. We decided to remove all the core and do it right and for strength.

Just Say N20
05-09-2010, 06:47 PM
Holy Cow!

I have never seen a project of this magnitude come together so fast! Did you secretly have this project completed, and you took pictures of it along the way, so you can post them in rapid fashion?

Astounding progress. You are worthy! :biggrin:

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 07:02 PM
While all this is going on, I am still really struggling with gas tank placement and size. With very few 16 OB Baby's out there to begin with, there are even fewer that have moved the OEM gas tank. I keep digging up photos to see where the water line is at rest. Here are shots with gas tanks that are in the OEM location, which often seems to start just IN FRONT of the cockpit floor locker. The 4th shot is of a splash hull from Canada but it gives a good feel for waterline. The 5th photo is of a Baby with a 32 gallon fuel tank mounted 13" forward of the transom. It is 3/4 full in the photo. Then the last photo is of a converted 16 I/O with a bracket.

There will be three OB engine choices possible for this project, and respective weights will be either 375, 395, or 419, all certainly heavier then back in 1974 when standard factory power would have been a Mercury 115 I believe.

Sweet Cheekz
05-09-2010, 07:04 PM
Holy Cow!

I have never seen a project of this magnitude come together so fast! Did you secretly have this project completed, and you took pictures of it along the way, so you can post them in rapid fashion?

Astounding progress. You are worthy! :biggrin:

Amazing progress in 4 minutes :yes:

Parnell

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 07:09 PM
Yes, some of the project was "in the can" as they say and just never got around to laying out the dialogue and photos. Still a ton to do though.

Greg Guimond
05-09-2010, 07:28 PM
Another thing that I had to plan for was needing good weather to run the test mule which helps with the choices that will get applied to Surface Tension. In the meantime, in the spirit of Back to the Future, lets clean up the deck after Stage 1 ..............

Greg Guimond
05-12-2010, 06:20 PM
I started to use some of my very crude drawing skills to mock up a visual on the rumble seats. The Critter's came in pretty handy for this as you see in the pics below ..........

yeller
05-12-2010, 06:30 PM
Not sure I fully understand where the gel coat rubbing would occur, but could you not install a couple thin rubber bump stops where they wouldn't be seen when the hatch is closed? On the hatch, where it contacts the bump stops, you could mount small SS plates (similar to the ones Donzi uses as backing plates for the engine hatch rams on the classics).

Greg Guimond
05-12-2010, 07:20 PM
Yeller, we have gone back and forth on how to handle the hatches. One idea was to use SS channel to slide the hatches down into, with side pins as the guide. The underside of the hatch will be cushioned and act as the "seatback" when in the open position. I was also trying to figure out if I could hinge the hatches but that does not seem possible right now. When the hatches are open, the finished gelcoat top will be resting against the deck. I think I am going to go for a simple approach, that we are working on.

Greg Guimond
05-12-2010, 07:38 PM
Here is a little sidebar ...........It looks like this was posted on 1-08-07 by olredalert;

Steven,,,

------I was a dealer back in the early 70s and ordered two 16 eggbeaters. To my knowledge they were only available in white with either blue, red, or yellow trim. I may be forgetting one other. Interiors were all white. Now, its possible that special orders could have been made but John C told me at the time that they were trying to keep special orders down on the eggbeaters as options on them were a pain in the butt to implement..........Bill S

Greg Guimond
05-12-2010, 08:41 PM
After some back and forth, I decide on 25" x 25" hatches and the cutting begins .............

Greg Guimond
05-12-2010, 09:22 PM
The idea is for the rumble seats to be for the kids on the occasional cruise, but we want to get a feel for the scale of the seats. Not sure, but it looks like we may have given a little too much space to the front bench with a 42" dimension from dash to seat back. I wanted to leave a lot of room for thick upholstery.........we shall see :crossfing:

Greg Guimond
05-14-2010, 09:21 PM
I have been thinking of how to secure the hatches when closed. Kind of makes you go a bit crazy searching for hardware. Hopefully anyone who is searching for latches stumbles onto this build thread ........

Greg Guimond
05-14-2010, 09:27 PM
And more .........

Greg Guimond
05-14-2010, 10:07 PM
Some more progress on the hull. I'd like to set up a clamp down anchor hold ahead of bulkhead #1...........

Greg Guimond
05-14-2010, 10:15 PM
And here is the start of the rumble seat build up .........

Greg Guimond
05-14-2010, 10:34 PM
And some prep for the deck's future installation .............beefing up the top of the hull sides to accept mechanical fasteners.

Carbo
05-15-2010, 06:14 PM
Great....thanks Greg. It's not like i didn't have enough to think about in starting my restoration......and then you have to throw all these ideas in my head. And...you have #63 and I have #67....Very nice job your doing.

Greg Guimond
05-16-2010, 07:21 AM
Thanks Carbo, not sure where it will all end up but so far so good. This past week Clint's team added the outside knees to finish off the internal transom tie in. I wanted the tie in to include a horizontal cross in the design as I suspect I'll be airborne every now and then like I am in pic below. I like to be able to make the hull do what I want, when I want......so strength is the top priority of the project. I also wanted to close the splashwell. With today's O/B's being heavier it seems like the factory splashwell drain holes let water in and the well gathers a lot of dirt so we'll try a different approach. Here are a couple of pics...............

HIGH LIFE
05-16-2010, 07:33 AM
Greg, After looking at your transom knees it looks like it should hold a 300X with no problem !!! "HIGH LIFE"

Greg Guimond
05-16-2010, 07:59 AM
Thanks HIGH LIFE, even I don't have the brass _ _ _ _ _ for a 300X! That beast makes 330HP at the prop!

I am still struggling with where to locate the gas tank. It is pretty interesting when you dig up old photos of OB Baby's at rest and look at the water line as it relates the hull sides. It really shows how high the factory boats sit at rest with the factory gas tank all the way forward of the drivers bucket seat. We are going to take a new CofG look this week with the deck on and see where it ends up versus the first one of the hull only. Based on the results, we may have to move some sandbags around to see what the various effects of weight shift are. I am really determined to get the best balance we can. You can check out the thread titled Balancing the BOAT??????? for some additional discussion on the topic. For a little boat like Surface Tension, balance is a lot more important then it is for the longer hulls. The above thread got a bit confrontational but still some good information. This piece will be critical as I got back the information from "The Scientist" and we will soon be tackling the hull bottom soon with the possibility of extending the inner strakes :confused:

Greg Guimond
05-16-2010, 07:11 PM
In the search for balance, take a look I found these pics interesting. Of course, Parnell (aka "The King") shows what the proper angle of attack should look like. There is a reason he is in the 80mph Club.....running flat and rippin fast :shocking:

Sweet Cheekz
05-16-2010, 07:40 PM
Hardly a king but I was moving pretty fast there.
Greg Its interesting watching all the investigating you are doing on this. I know its been discussed on here before but running flat does give you a more stable ride in chop which is what everyone boats in most of the time. Yours is a very fun project to watch. Have you said what motor you are installing?
Parnell

Sweet Cheekz
05-16-2010, 07:46 PM
BTW Greg I don't know if you ever saw the video I posted last year running in 1-2 foot waves in Lake Michigan My boat ran very flat then and the bow never went sky ward. I think thats what Rootsy was talking about in the post George made in your other thread. I think people give too much credence to lightest weight possible is the fastest possible. Setup is more important and it looks like you are doing the work
Parnell

gcarter
05-16-2010, 08:09 PM
Yep!
Race boats have bow water ballast tanks for a reason.
Interesting project Greg.

Greg Guimond
05-17-2010, 09:35 PM
Thanks George, if I can ever make a choice on tank location and size I'd really appreciate your expert opinion on a few things. Parnell, I did see the video and your hull is landing straight and even on that run. The ideal attack angle is 5ish degrees so in my opinion, flat is where it's at :shark: I am wondering if that super long tank of yours helped? Rootsy (seller of magic prop) returned my pm and he did NOT ever change his inner strakes on his 16 so I was mistaken. His hull was factory stock as your 16 is Parnell. On the other hand, Ed D (see pic 1) put in the pad, notched it, and elongated the inner strakes right to the transom he said in his quest for the big 100mph figure. As a rat 'a tat tat I will be short a couple hundred horsepower LOL on all you guys so I'll need all the help we can muster. We decided to start with the attached pad (pic 2) while we figure out the full approach. I am swaying toward a dual height pad as shown in pic 3 and possibly stretch the inner strakes by 6". "The Scientist" approves of the dual height pad but is not so keen on my strake idea. The other option is install a delta pad like pic 4 :boggled: For fun, we lay down the factory grab rail on the deck and it lines up pretty darn well :yes:

gcarter
05-17-2010, 09:46 PM
So, what/whose hull is that in picture 4???

Sweet Cheekz
05-18-2010, 06:49 AM
Greg
Don't feel bad about being a few ponies short, I believe I have a motor thats half the hp's of Ed's!
I firmly believe my boat runs flat cause of my tank and the bulkhead I put in just forward of the helm

Keep up the good work

Parnell

Rootsy
05-18-2010, 07:30 AM
How did I miss this thread?

Nothing special about that prop.... It just happened to help the 16 be a bit more docile. The SS made all of the difference and she only had 350 CID...

Quad IV O/T....

mattyboy
05-18-2010, 07:39 AM
and I'm sure that 350 was stock too ;)

Jamie you are starting to sound like Bob Haver LOL

Sweet Cheekz
05-18-2010, 08:22 AM
I have a friend that raced cats that had 650hp out of a 350. :)

Parnell

Greg Guimond
05-18-2010, 07:42 PM
George, that is a Sidewinder hull in pic # 4. The West Coast crowd have frequently used delta pads with success including Howard. Agree that there certainly a few rigs with BIG horsepower out there. I never really could figure out what Ed D's had for ponies though.

Here is the BH layout pictures moving forward from the inside of the transom they are placed at 37" - 107" - 144"

gcarter
05-18-2010, 07:50 PM
I firmly believe my boat runs flat cause of my tank and the bulkhead I put in just forward of the helm
Parnell

I think I agree w/Parnell.

Sweet Cheekz
05-18-2010, 07:54 PM
I never really could figure out what Ed D's had for ponies though.
.

Rumor was a 1000 of them :shocking:

Parnell

Greg Guimond
05-18-2010, 08:59 PM
Why do I get the distinct feeling that I have brought a knife to a gun fight :eek:


To that end, I got a kick out of this from the archives. It looks like it was posted on 12-04-01 by :wink: some guy named Alan Brown;

I did the 7 meter, Harry Schoell did the Spitfire/Pescador. Stinkin' is a play on words from the "We don't need no stinkin' guns....." We didn't need no stinkin' outboards.... Nothing personal. I wish I had a 16' Baby (named for my raceboat, Donzi Baby) with a 2.5 offshore merc w/ sportmaster.
Brownie

This was in response to another post on 12-02-2001, by a past member named lou;

There were several 65 and 66 outboards sold. I have a "stinkin" 1965 16 outboard that was sold to Gerry Walin by Donzi. He used it as a test mule for the starflite IV and it still has the motor on it. I know of another 1965 "stinkin" 16 outboard that was used by Mercury for testing in 1966 on Lake X and was destroyed while in tow in Lakeland Florida. Donzi also build another "stinkin" 1965 19 foot outboard and it was built for the great Jerry Langer who drove it to first place at the 1965 Sam Griffith Memorial. I believe that Allan Brown is a treasure of Donzi history and a wonderful part of this registry. I am only sorry that my boat offends him so.
lou

Well at least I got a kick out of it. Now back to our regular programming!

Greg Guimond
05-18-2010, 10:06 PM
I still have a ton of things to think through. Some items include my concept for a fold down center armrest as shown in pic #1 and #2. I think it would add function, but also give your butt something to anchor against under speed on that slippery front bench. I'm also thinking about moving the stock steering wheel location a few inches to starboard. The #3 pic shows that there is plenty of room on the dash for that. Even giving some thought to having dual steering stations with removable wheel mount. I also expect to have a problem with the front right radius and how it will interfere with the shifters forward throw with the front bench pinching up against the stock shifter's location as shown in pic #4.

And then there is the real brain teaser, the Master Fabricator thinks we can actually set the hull up with removable pads. You have different props for different needs, why not have two or three different bolt up pads to experiment with like pic #5.:rofl: Hmmmmmmmm

mrfixxall
05-21-2010, 10:03 PM
Greg, the bigger boats usually have a notched transom with the pad,,now that would be interesting :)

Greg Guimond
05-22-2010, 08:56 AM
Thanks Fixx, the notch (as pictured below) was one of the points I discussed with "The Scientist" and we both agreed that a notch would not be a great help as the eggbeater allows as much up and down propshaft placement as might be needed. The data is back in and it is pretty interesting. Here is a snippet of the info .............I can't figure out how to convert it to a picture.

Greg Guimond
05-22-2010, 09:23 AM
And here is an interesting snippet that comments on the XCG or Dynamic Center of Gravity characteristics of the hull. Recognize that the calculations were all based on supplying a LOT of data on MY weedeater hull specifically. I got back an 11 page report once he ran it through the abacus.


The observation is that the location of XCGDynamic changes from 8.1 ft fore of transom at 25mph to 1 ft fore of transom at 70 mph. After the "hump" transition (at approximately 35mph), the "200 hp 16 Donzi With Pad" exhibits no overly dramatic changes in XCGDynamic through the higher speed operating range. This lack of "sudden" changes in XCGDynamic tends to make the "feel" of the hull one of general stability, and will contribute to a more confident ride, with accessible control, by the driver.

Greg Guimond
05-22-2010, 10:07 AM
It looks like the only Donzi 16 Classic I/O with a pad was Ed Donnelly's Twin Turbo monster. I know, I know, not everyone posts on this board so maybe there are others hiding.

Ed D, if you are out there, and realizing it was a ways back, any chance you remember who the dimensions were on your pad? It would be a big help :)

Ed Donnelly
05-22-2010, 10:37 AM
Greg;Sorry for taking so long to respond.. That was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long ago, but, I think
The pad was 8" x 6'
The step was 6" setback
The strakes were extended to the transom
Speedrails were added to the strakes

I ran 28 lbs boost on the Gale Banks twin turbo (350 chebby) with a stage 3 air to water intercooler..

I also had timing retard that was boost referenced..

Please don't quote me on the dimensions, as that was like 30 yrs ago...Ed

mrfixxall
05-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Greg;Sorry for taking so long to respond.. That was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long ago, but, I think
The pad was 8" x 6'
The step was 6" setback
The strakes were extended to the transom
Speedrails were added to the strakes

I ran 28 lbs boost on the Gale Banks twin turbo (350 chebby) with a stage 3 air to water intercooler..

I also had timing retard that was boost referenced..

Please don't quote me on the dimensions, as that was like 30 yrs ago...Ed


Ed do you still have that little monster? Also was their hydraulic steering on the boat ?

Greg Guimond
05-22-2010, 03:15 PM
Ed, thanks for the info. Those speeds are ever more impressive considering that your boat and the associated technology was 80's vintage. I can't imagine 100mph in a 16 Classic :kaioken:

Here is where I am coming out on the hull bottom choices. There seems to be a lot of information out there and it has been kind of fun to dig around for it. Put it together in no particular order and here is what we have.

1. Two 16 Classic I/O's have broken the 80mph mark
a. both went 80 with 100% factory stock hull bottoms
b. both had the benefit of SS drives
c. one had 400hp and one 500hp

2. One of the 16 Classic's got to 100
a. lengthened the inner strakes to the transom
b. installed a notch AND a pad
c. had over 900hp

I am thinking that if you have a pad then you probably do not need the strake exntensions. Strakes primarily give you lift and help with a transom heavy boat. If I go with a pad, that will generate lift on its own, thereby no need for the extended strakes. When you add the fact that Parnell and Rootsy both broke through 80mph, it tells you that the bottom CAN get there with enough horsepower. Then consider Ed's rough pad dimensions and compare to "The Scientist" who had run his data assuming a 12" wide pad and was calling for 11' long! I am thinking more to the 6' length and less to the 11'.

Greg Guimond
05-22-2010, 04:39 PM
Had some good weather so took advantage of it and logged 285 miles on the test mule. Also found one of the few marina's that still pump high test 93 octane which is hard to find on the water :frown:

Greg Guimond
06-11-2010, 05:18 PM
Progress has slowed lately, but we were able to put the hull and the deck on an electronic 2000lb scale. The hull weighed in at 698lbs. Then we did the reconfigured deck and it came in at 409lbs, more then I would have thought. Here is a pic ...........total weight unrigged and without gas tank is 1107lbs. As a point of comparison, Allison's comp V pad weighs in at 700 ish so the 16 Baby's have some Baby Fat left over!

AndyDiSario
06-14-2010, 04:32 PM
Greg,

Some comments, admittedly of little value.

Your thread is very interesting. And way over my head in practice, also. What a project! Nice to see mention and pictures of my boat, also.
:

>All of these decisions become a compromise in one way or another.

Isn't that the truth? All hull / boat designs and indeed, most things in life turn out to be compromises one way or another, that's for sure.
:

About notches in boat design. These can be interesting. I owned two Yamaha Waveraiders in the past: a 1994 700 twin, then an awesome 1995 1100 inline-triple. Each was the fastest stock PWC of its time, especially given flat water. They were amazing in their era, when running glassy-smooth water, noticeably lifting up onto their notched keels (at the jet pump), but again, only in very-calm water. The tradeoff was each was a wet, wild handful of a ride in rough water -- a costly compromise, in retrospect. It was a very exciting time, and I was addicted. I spent much of my free time then trolling for PWC victims to run in calmer water, especially hunting for those who had beaten my still-fun, but slower Kawasaki sit-down Jet-Skis a few years earlier.

Our Stingray 181RS bowrider has a notched transom which places its OB further forward than would be the case with a flat transom. This moves weight forward and shortens total length, saving me some garage space during storage also. Seems a tidy package for our "mini-van on the water."

Good luck with your ambitious project,
Andy

Greg Guimond
06-26-2010, 10:10 PM
Thanks Andy, progress is slow but steady.........

Now that the rework of the deck and hull are 95% complete, we wanted to check the Center-of-Gravity notations again. With just the hull itself, the CofG mark was at 75" forward of the transom as shown in the first picture below. Then, when we set the deck down loose on top of the hull and put the sling back under, the CofG mark moved back to 73". Then, we added sandbags to place the weight of the OB (400lbs) on the transom. The Center-of-Gravity mark moved back to 57" or 28% as shown in the second photo below. This is important as I need to decide on the final gas tank size and location, and determine if any bulkheads need to be moved.

Greg Guimond
06-26-2010, 10:57 PM
One rainy night I decided to check out the CofG on the existing hull. The test mule has a 32 gallon cell mounted 13" forward of the transom. The tank is 24"x24". Interesting to note that the CofG is at 53" foward of the transom for this setup with 1/4 tank of fuel. It was not that hard to check, I took a stray roller and put a jack under it. Fiddled around until the entire hull lifted off the trailer evenly, then took the measurements as a comparison to the new build. This was worth doing, as the test mule lands straight and true in the swells. Had the opportunity to test that yet again today. Left the Statue of Libery launch at 9:00am sharp this morning, ran across the Battery, up the East River, thru Hell Gate, under the Throgs and up to Westport, CT for a cup of coffee. The first leg is always easy, coming back there was plenty of airtime running down the Hudson from the GW into 4' rollers. At one point I drafted a Coast Guard cutter to help with the chaos of cruisers, ferries, and a nice north "breeze" :nilly: Still amazes me what a capable hull the little 16 Classic is over the course of a 133 mile run in a variety of conditions. The Turbo Fusion 4 prop is perfect for high control. Thanks Grizz! Certainly helped me make it back in one piece :cool:

Greg Guimond
06-28-2010, 07:33 PM
It is getting close to decision time on the gas tank. The long run this past weekend with the test mule made me re-think a few things. I like to lay things down visually kind of 3D like. Makes it seem a bit more real. The photo below shows where I think I'll end up with the tank layout................

Greg Guimond
06-28-2010, 08:48 PM
I also want to try and figure out some storage.............

Greg Guimond
06-30-2010, 10:00 PM
I think I may have the best compromise on the gas tank. I wanted to be able to carry at least 50 gallons of fuel as you can't always get 93 Octane on the water. I also had to think about balance, having a 57" Center of Gravity dry, which is about perfect. With both of those needs in mind, and a quick note to The Scientist, Clint and I believe this approach in the picture will be the best ...............forgive my grade schools sketches!

Greg Guimond
07-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Well it looks like we will go with a step tank. Will use dual fuel fills and mechanically tab in the tank in four locations plus foam in on the sides only. Have to get the exact dimensions together and send out for a couple of prices. Overall length will be about 68" and width about 22". Any comments on baffling and fuel sender options appreciated :boggled:

gcarter
07-12-2010, 08:18 PM
Both RDS and Florida Marine Tanks will build anything you want. They'll engineer the baffles too.
I bet you might be able to do better price wise locally.
Good luck.

Greg Guimond
07-25-2010, 11:20 PM
While Clint and I wrestle with which red to choose, he finished the mock up model for the gas tank. The thought is we can have much of the form rolled from aluminum stock and then weld the rest. It will be a step tank that we will foam in the sides only and then instead of tabbing we'll install top-stops, mechanically fastened. I want dual port and starboard fills as well for easy fill access and balanced bling. Have to get final figures but should be about 50 gallons and sit looooooow in the hull which should be a big help with handling on a Baby.

Here are some pics ..........The 4th and 5th pic is of board member Hi Life's gas tank. Mike has a bunch of cool boats and one of them is a late build 1976 16 OB powered by a 1993 Mariner 200HP. Notice that they had moved the gas tank back by this point which took some space away from the floor storage locker as shown in the last picture.

Sweet Cheekz
07-26-2010, 08:36 AM
Looking good Greg Make sure you thru bolt the battery box and buy a real good one cause that battery is going to take a pounding and you would hate to have it break loose. I'm sure you already thought of that but just a little reminder.
Parnell

Greg Guimond
07-30-2010, 05:58 PM
While we dial in which red gel to use, never mind which white, we have moved on the hull bottom. I have given a fair amount of thought to what I wanted to do here. First, I gave thought to extending the inner strakes. It turns out that Ed D had done this to his 16 I/O. I also have extended strakes on the Mule, as shown in Pic#3 below. My personal opinion is that I like the extended inner strakes as they really provide crisp turn in provided you show them the proper respect. I also gave some thought to a dual height pad as shown in Pic#1 below. Ultimately though I am finding the project going more toward pure hot rod with the goal to break 80 on GPS. With that in mind, we are going to keep the inner strakes stock and install a single level delta pad that will flare to 10" at the transom. By keeping the inner strakes stock, the re-entry will be a touch softer and all the lift will be generated solely by the delta pad at the higher speed ranges. Below that, the pad's small 90 degree sharp edges will help with tighter turns. I was REALLY close to the double height pad and I hope I do not regret my decision. Pic#2 shows Clint's prep for the pad installation. For those who care, Pic#4 shows a pad and driver at the height of capability.....and its red LOL. Don't worry though as Surface Tension is just a bit heavier then most :frown:

gcarter
07-30-2010, 07:39 PM
I think you're making all the right (correct) decisions.

Greg Guimond
07-30-2010, 08:41 PM
Thanks George and Parnell for the kind words. Although progress is slow, I think that is actually better in some respects as it allows for some extra research which is fun. We are going to spray two red test panels, one with white primer and one with black primer so we can compare the effect in bright sunlight. On the hull side, right now, the Mule likes its propshaft dead even with the pad or a little above. But that comes with a price - the Mule got its name when it almost tossed my arse into the drink. It was enough to snap the lanyard and shut the motor down.....ever since then.... "The Mule"! One of the reasons I believe this happens is because of the lower unit. Amazing lift and control right up to 70 and a great attack angle but then things can get interesting. I am going to change l/u configs next week and see what changes occur. I'll also change props and go over to a 3 blade. With the Sporty, the Fusion Rev4 is a great oveall pop. But when we change lowers I will try a Mirage Plus or a Tempest. All this will play a role on final hull configs :yes:

Greg Guimond
08-15-2010, 10:47 PM
Before we commit 100% to the hull config I have spent some time trying combos. At last count, I have 10 props up on the shelf and have the benefit of trying different prop shaft heights as well. I get a kick out of the amount of posts that talk about "what prop to use" as if there is an algorithm some where. I really do think that you have to try, try, and try again as there are so many water and hull variables to consider. I am feeling better about the single height delta pad approach at this point but still some testing to do and the full hot rod concept is now 100% of the focus for Surface Tension. I have a very specific goal in mind :hyper:

Sweet Cheekz
08-16-2010, 09:47 AM
Greg
I have tried 10 props on my 16 and I'm up to 6 so far on the 21 testing is the key and its way cool that you can change the drive height Thats 20-30 tests with the 10 props right there Good luck keep us posted
Parnell

Greg Guimond
08-17-2010, 08:05 AM
So true Parnell, there is no way around testing and I feel better that you had to go the same route with your 16. After it was all done, what prop did you finally decide was fastest? Below are some pictures for the archives. Maybe it will help others. One thing to note in Pic # 3 is that the factory skeg profile actually looks almost "bent". So thus far I have a couple of good data points to build on for the future goal :hyper:

Sweet Cheekz
08-17-2010, 09:17 AM
Hey Greg
My ss is not on the boat right now awaiting fixing so I will measure that same dimension when I get it back together soon. I never really finished testing because I hit 80 and that was my goal and then I wanted to go boating then the drive broke. I have a 26 3 blade turbo from grizz spinning 5800 for my 80 but I had 2 other props that ran 79 so I think there's a little left. Once spring broke I worked almost exclusively on my 21 to get it going and all my testing has been on that this summer. Keep us updated
Parnell

AndyDiSario
08-26-2010, 10:32 AM
Greg,

This is a very-interesting thread. I have just read through it to catch back up to your impressive progress. Some random comments on postings.

#27. Yes, my BMS 4" Ultra HD hydraulic jack plate weighs just 37 lbs at the transom. It is wonderful!

#55. For what it's worth, I am able to store necessary items under my stock bow deck. In the center bridge area, I slide two Fortress aluminum Danforth anchors with SS chains and line. In the starboard bow well is a pack of four lifevests. I attached pull lanyards (lines) for retrieval of items buried out of convenient reach. Seems to work. I understand your configuration will be different, as it will be custom. We stow much more under the center locker, the stern bench seat well, and under both the port and starboard hatches (in drybags, mostly). Storage is a big requirement to us and our guests, as it's amazing how many items people need for a long day of boating!

#85. What approach did you try by closing the splashwell? Did you redesign some sort of scupper? Even with the weight of the 225X, its extra noise insulation and redirected intake stream I added (making the cowling quite heavier, for example) and its jackplate, I ensured the scupper was retained. This was a priority when reinforcing the transom with a powder-coated SS wrap-around plate. At worst, the Donzi lets in an inch or so of water just at the transom while reversing, which quickly drains out when up to plane.

Truthfully, it pleases me how much cleaner the splashwell stays on the Donzi, as compared to our Stingray, which gets dirty mostly with grease and oil drippings. I attribute this mostly to the Promax 225X being a much cleaner motor than the old pre-mixed, carb'ed Force on the Stingray. This works out well as the Stingray has its own little integrated swim/boarding platform, whereas with the Donzi, we use the splashwell as the staging area for boarding after swimming, before climbing into the cockpit.

I like our outboard motorboats' scuppers so much, I (almost) tried drilling and plumbing scuppers into the forward-slanted footwells of our old Waverunner. The Waverunner retained several inches of water in its footwells. This I considered doing -- until realizing the bases of the footwells were *under* the waterline of the Waverunner while at rest! Doubly-well I did not attempt this, especially since the Waverunner is long sold.

#124. What were your findings when trying a 3-blade prop?

Regards,
Andy DiSario

Greg Guimond
08-28-2010, 08:02 AM
Andy,
At 37lb it is hard to go wrong. Is that an "advertised" weight or did you throw it on the scale along with the controls and harness?

When Surface Tension is done the factory splashwell will be history. The theme of the project is to re-create what the factory might produce today if they were to build a tastefully updated "2010" 16 Baby. Adios, closed, dirt gathering, stress crack targeted splashwell. Now one thing I have had to think through is the fact that with a open splashwell there will be no lip against which to brace oneself for the inevitable "at sea cowl removal" repair. I am giving some thought to a stainless spanner, represented by the red line in pic #4 below. Maybe there is a way to have some type of catch collar either on the engine clamp or the boat to accept the spanner on an as needed basis. Have not wrestled that to the ground yet, but an open waxed splashwell will be awfully slick at sea.

In the meantime, the Mule has taken to driving itself the project is going so slow LOL. It is one nasty Mule, very anti-social :eek:

Greg Guimond
08-28-2010, 03:44 PM
Meanwhile, it is back to making decisions on the build, specifically the colors. Here is what we have decided.......

1. Rub rail down will all be primed in black gel
2. Rub rail down final finish will also be gel
3. Inside hull and underbelly of deck will be white gel
4. Deck and c_ckpit will be paint
5. Stripe will be paint

The logic here is that the boat is a saltwater boat, and I would like to leave it in the water for a couple of weeks at a time without concern, thus gel below the rail. Topsides however, I'd like the easy maintenance and high gloss "pop", thus paint. I am stuck however on what exact final red color to use and also what manufacturers as well.

Options currently include Ferro, Valspar and Minicraft.

The first option (pic 1) is from Ferro and member Bert has used that on his super cool F-14 project. He kindly is going to get me the exact color code and I think that Ferro (Ashland Chemicals) was a Donzi supplier at some point. Check out the Ferro option below in pic #1

The second option (pic 2) is from a company called Valspar and this came from a West coast connection who is doing a superb restore of a 1984 Sleekcraft 26. Massive project and really really incredible execution. The left coast folks can really turn out amazing stuff as well as I'm sure you all know. Here is the color in pic #2. I am waiting to get the exact code for it as well. This project also called for clear top coat.

Mr. Carter graciously offered to help out if Minicraft RT822 becomes the choice. This is the 2003-2009 "Aronow Edition Red RT822" which is what Mr Carter chose to use on his current project. This finished color is shown in pic #3 and of course it is hard to argue with anything George decides to use.

My head is starting to spin with all the details that are passing through it on the build and I have not even had a perfect Manhattan yet LOL. Maybe I should to gain some "clarity". Clint sent me some color blocks (pic#4) where he primed with both black and white beneath the red to follow up on Mr Carter's thought. I am comfortable now that black primer is the way to go. Initially I even liked the red he chose, but then I found out it was a Wellcraft color from the late 80's. I don't think I want a Wellcraft color on this hull unless I can come up with a catalog shot from back in the day to see what it looks like. It is a big benefit to have "current" projects using the gel's in question. Even though it is still pictures, just gives some overall comfort..........I hope :nilly::bonk::hyper:

Greg Guimond
08-30-2010, 08:54 PM
The rumble seat bases are now finished and I think the height will work :yes:

Greg Guimond
08-31-2010, 10:13 PM
I got an answer back from the West. The Valspar gel product code # used on the Sleekcraft 26 is Red 5R-14 Represents colors available in pigment dispersions (whatever that means :boggled: ) Now I just need to find someone between NYC and Syracuse who carries Valspar product.


And for all you gel coat fans, here is some background info from the website.............

Introduction to Valspar Gel Coat

Gel coat makes fiberglass reinforced products attractive and practical. Technically, it is a surface coating of pigmented polyester resin which gels against the mold surface and cures with the structural laminate. It faithfully reproduces the mold surface, imparts color, and protects the reinforcing fibers from external elements. In many cases, the surface treated with gel coat is the only part of the structure that can be seen. To the homeowner, it is simply a reinforced plastic. Resins, fillers, pigments and promoters are carefully selected and formulated to develop the quality and surface appearance needed to make the product durable.

Key Points


The basic ingredient of gel coat is the polyester resin system, which provides the chemical composition that determines the chemical and physical properties of the gel coat.
Reacted into the resin, isophthalic acid provides greater levels of water and chemical resistance than does orthophthalic anhydride. Greater chemical, weather and corrosion resistance with a higher degree of flexibility are the immediate benefits when isophthalic acid replaces orthophthalic acid in the resin.
When the highest possible quality and performance levels are required, neopentyl glycol is reacted into the isophthalic resin in the proper mole ratio. This raw material can produce weathering and chemical resistance capabilities superior to resins formulated with other common glycols.
Pigments and their quality determine both the color we see and the color integrity, which simply means the ability of the color to resist change from exposure to various environments.
Extenders provide the gel coat with proper spraying characteristics and influence the cured physical properties.
The viscosity comes from the thixotrope. Its purpose is to hold the gel coat on a vertical surface.

gcarter
09-01-2010, 08:41 AM
And to add a little bit more info to this very informative post;
Light colors use a base w/white titanium powder added (this is your basic super white gel that's used for most everything). It seems to be a little thicker, may need to be thinned a bit, and the color is very dense, i.e., it takes very little to cover completely.
Dark colors, navies, reds, greens, blacks, etc., use a neutral (transparent) base, and needs tons of pigment to make the gel dense enough to cover. Gels like this cost substantially more (but red is the most expensive) due to the quantity of pigment needed. I think these gels require more gel to cover completely as I found the first coat could be somewhat transparent.

Greg Guimond
09-03-2010, 08:57 PM
More color info back with the help of board member Bert. The color used on his F-14 is a Ferro product. Evidently, Ferro used to have a plant in Florida that supplied Donzi with colors for a period of time. The plant burned down at some point, but Bert had gone to Mr. Brown for help.

Here is a quote from Bert's post...... The first 5 Gallons were a standard red from Fiberglass Coatings. It looked like tomato soup so I called Alan Brown (Brownie) and he said try Candy apple red from Ferro. They had three formulas on file from different years. They sent three chips and from that I picked the Candy red color.

Bert and his shop were able to contact Ferro, and amazingly, they had some old paper records from the late 70's that had made it through the fire. It is a custom color that is more toward Candy Apple and away from Lucan Red. Evidently, Lucan red was excellent for stripes, but not good for full cover. Bert's shop is willing order a pale for us if we go the Ferro route. Here is some more commentary on the application...... What you do, and I told him to do is to mix 1/2 Duratec clear and 1/2 red gel then the last coat will flow (somewhat) and then you don't have to start the wet sanding process with 220 grit. Maybe 400 to start. I was told by a pro that this is the way to do it today.

Trivia question for the elders.....what years did Ferro supply Donzi with colors?

Sweet Cheekz
09-04-2010, 07:24 AM
A lot of talent on this board and helpful people Bert and George have two beautiful boats Well done greg
Parnell

Greg Guimond
09-04-2010, 07:30 AM
Just searched up a post from member Greg back in 2004. Greg this is Greg, you still out there?

I have 2 original color charts that came with my '66 Donzi. The darker of the two colors that Mat spoke of is Kandy Apple Red, Ferro Mfg. # VF1830. I have two original color charts. They have always been kept in a folder out of sunlite. I've tried scanning them in, but my scanner does'nt give an accurate reproduction. I think the only way to properly reproduce them is to have them copied, colors checked and snailmailed.

Greg Guimond
09-04-2010, 08:41 AM
Very true Parnell, for the most part any time I have pushed out a PM the recipient has been willing to help out. In the meantime, I'll need to choose a color.

Minicraft 2003-2009 "Aronow Edition Red RT822"
Valspar "Red 5R-14"
Ferro Mfg. "VF1830-Kandy Apple Red"

Man, I wish I could see boats re-gel'd with these in person :yes:

gcarter
09-04-2010, 08:43 AM
Very true Parnell, for the most part any time I have pushed out a PM the recipient has been willing to help out. In the meantime, I'll need to choose a color.

Minicraft 2003-2009 "Aronow Edition Red RT822"
Valspar "Red 5R-14"
Ferro Mfg. "VF1830-Kandy Apple Red"

Man, I wish I could see boats re-gel'd with these in person :yes:

Come on down! :)

gcarter
09-04-2010, 08:46 AM
Trivia question for the elders.....what years did Ferro supply Donzi with colors?

Do you know?

Greg Guimond
09-04-2010, 08:49 AM
10-4 to that George. I better make a choice soon or Clint is going to string me up. Btw, here is an pretty interesting tech paper on Gel "blushing" that I ran across. Might be of use to some folks on the board who - unlike me - actually know what they are doing LOL

gcarter
09-04-2010, 08:51 AM
As far as thinning it w/clear.....if it works, great.
But I found the more I worked w/my spraying technique, and the more I got on the surface per coat, the better it flowed.
The key is, to slow down, it isn't paint.
You're trying to get on 20 mils, not 6 like paint.
It takes awhile to get the required minimum on the surface.
However, Minicraft makes a thin, shiny version that's supposed to require very little finish. Since I've not tried it, or the 50-50 mix you described, I sure couldn't compare them.

Greg Guimond
09-04-2010, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Greg Guimond http://www.donzi.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?p=576867#post576867)
Trivia question for the elders.....what years did Ferro supply Donzi with colors?



Do you know?

No, George, I don't know the answer. A wild guess is that it was before 1980 though just because the plant evidently burned in the late 70's.

Greg Guimond
09-09-2010, 06:41 PM
Some more progress on the hull bottom .......I have decided on a raised pad. It is 10" wide at the transom, then runs 6' long, finishing at about 3" prior to fair in. Then the hull gets skinned in vinylester in pic #2 and #3. I decided to keep the inner strakes at the factory location. There will now be a ton of body work to go through, including removing any hook that is present between the inside and outside lifting strakes. The pad will be dead flat and true both ways before it starts its transition.

Greg Guimond
09-09-2010, 06:46 PM
The Scientist had supplied some wetted surface analysis. If I could actually figure out how to resize the attached pdf and bmp, those who care can read it. He used a 12" pad width for his calcs, but I decided to drop to 10" for a variety of reasons. It'll be interesting to see how it all stacks up to the calcs.

Greg Guimond
09-18-2010, 05:21 PM
Time to start thinking about rub rail options. Sorry to say that a lot of sources have gone out of business with the far reaching economic troubles. It seems like Taco, Barbour, and Wefco Rubber were the only sources I could find. I have a couple of options so far, as shown in the pictures below. I even bought some red rubrail, the type that was used on some Whaler's. I guess a lot will depend on how the boat get's rigged. Right now I am thinking that every stitch of metal will be simple chrome. Isn't the factory deck grab rail SS though? Not sure how that would look. Anyone have a rub rail that they particularly like the look of, please post up a pic or two!

AndyDiSario
09-19-2010, 03:38 PM
Greg,

As best as I can tell, I have the stock rub rail on my boat. If you need me to go out to the garage and make any measurements, let me know.

-Andy

Greg Guimond
09-29-2010, 04:13 PM
Some more progress on the hull bottom as shown in Pic 1 below. Shortly the blueprinting will be done and the bottom will be primed in black. According to the Scientist and his calculations, at 54.5MPH we should have 2'8" or 32" of this pad "in" the water as wetted surface. This factored into the plan to start the gas tank 37" forward of the transom as shown in Pic 2. My goal was to allow for the possibility of heavier power being installed at a much later date. Right now though, the plan is for light, old school power :wink:

Just Say N20
09-29-2010, 07:06 PM
A little help with the bmp and pdf attachments. :yes:

Greg Guimond
09-29-2010, 09:46 PM
Thanks Bill for doing that. I could never figure it out!


Now that the hull bottom is almost done I decided to take a look back at the report that "The Scientist" generated when we were in the planning phases of the project. Here is an excerpt from that.......


Q) What would expected performance difference be w/ 200hp v 240hp v 280hp engine options?


Answer) A similar performance analysis for the 200hp 16 Donzi With Pad, was also completed for the 240hp and 280 hp engine alternatives with results as follows:


The maximum predicted velocity for the 200hp with pad is 78mph
The maximum predicted velocity for the 240hp with pad is 82mph
The maximum predicted velocity for the 280hp with pad is 86mph


These power ratings are well beyond the original design of the hull, and may be hazardous to your health if used on your setup without suitable precautions and driver experience.


These projections are interesting to me given what the Test Mule has shown so far at 75.8 and 74.1. There is not much time left this season to prove The Scientist right!

Greg Guimond
09-29-2010, 10:39 PM
I also have to re-focus a bit on the glass work that still remains to be done to fit out the inner hull properly. Although the boat is only a 16, I'd like to ensure that all the "little" things are added on and well thought out. For example, I am also starting to consider either removing the factory SS grab bar entirely, or changing it. I have to think on this one a bit.

Here is a picture (crayola version) of the hull "fitments" yet to be done. I'd like to find a really nice set of polished chrome marine grab rails that can be mounted right in front of the rumble riders. Not only will it give a great place for each rider to hold on, I also think a side benefit will be that it raises the site line off of the upholstery top with a nice transition. Maybe one idea is to shorten the factory grab rail and have it run from the original starting point back at the rear of the boat, and then only come across the boat in front of the rumble seats. Hmmmmm, I wish I could see how that would look.

Greg Guimond
10-06-2010, 09:01 PM
Starting to also think about a few rigging details. For example, I tried to open a dialogue with the company that makes the dual foot throttle pictured below. Ideally it would be great to have a dual use hand and foot throttle set up. Ironically, Land-n-Sea did one decades ago but they are out of the business. In-Control makes a unit today as shown in pic #2 below, but feedback has been mediocre on the hand throttle portion. This unit from Sweden is the only other combo unit I have found worldwide. It is no different then cruise control in a car. When you want to putz around at 40 you just set it with the hand throttle. When you want to do the solo routine and jump cruiser waves, you pull the hand throttle back and work only with the foot throttle to "stab" at the rpms.

Any board members live in Sweden? ............:nilly:

Greg Guimond
10-06-2010, 09:56 PM
I also need to figure out how to deal with the splashwell. We decided to modify it such that the transom lip will be gone. That means the splashwell glass will join the top of the transom at a roughly 115 degree angle. The join spot is shown below in pic #2. I'd like to carry the SS theme that will be present with the rubrail choice pictured below and somehow have the same 316 SS edgeing that will prevent any dents from affecting the splashwell edge. Not sure yet how to pull this off but I think we'll need it because we will have an all red hull and transom meeting a white splashwell.

Carbo
10-06-2010, 10:31 PM
I also need to figure out how to deal with the splashwell. We decided to modify it such that the transom lip will be gone. That means the splashwell glass will join the top of the transom at a roughly 115 degree angle. I'd like to carry the SS them that will be present with the rubrail choice pictured below and somehow have a SS edgeing that will prevent any dents from affecting the splashwell edge. Not sure yet how to pull this off but I think we'll need it because we will have an all red hull and transom meeting a white splashwell.

Are you doing a custom bracket? If you cut down the transom lip flush with the splashwell you loose the area for the top motor mount bolts.....Am I missing something? Or are you changing the top deck splashwell to meet the current transom height?

On another note.....my deck off has started....pics to come and it's own thread.....sending things out and ordering parts....

Greg Guimond
10-07-2010, 07:35 PM
Modified splashwell. Bolts accessed from within..........:yes: Second pic is a nice close-up of a factory well.

Carbo
10-07-2010, 09:46 PM
Wow....your going a lot further than I am.....that looks great. I got the transom part of the cap to come loose tonight....now my cap is loose and ready to pull off.......sent out vents, bow chocks, bow eye w/trim to be re-chromed today.....what model rubrail did you decide on? Who makes it...I got a list a mile long of parts to get....hyd steering, tabs, gauges....... soon as my cap is off pics and questions to follow....

Carbo
10-07-2010, 09:51 PM
Just looked at your cap picture again. I was going to have paint done while deck was off....but now I think it would be better to join the deck/hull first and then paint. The two halves take a bit of work to get together...:crossfing:

Greg Guimond
10-08-2010, 07:49 AM
Carbo, I decided to change the splashwell based on the project theme, which is doing things the factory might do if they were making the OB 16 today. Here are some pics. Pic #1 is what we found for the transom. Notice that it is not that thick where the splashwell would "join" it. We put in a new transom. Pic #2 shows how the lip was "raised" to allow for a modified splashwell. This could create a risky situation, as I want to use a 15" SS motor on the project so that shaft length may not work. We have to wait and see on that one!

Greg Guimond
10-08-2010, 10:48 AM
Pic #1 and #5 is a factory splashwell from a 1976 currently in Michigan. Notice the height of the lip? Pic #2 is the factory splashwell "at rest" of a 16 OB "pop" from Canada. Pics #3 and #6 are of the mid 90's factory OB with #3 being the splashwell of the rare 1995 16 OB Baby. Notice that when they did the (6) mid 90's OB hulls for the dealer show circuit, they changed the splashwell design. I always wanted to get a better photo of the lip height but never got a reply back.

Then, in Pic #4 is an interesting factory picture showing what looks like a dual level splashwell. Can anyone date this photo?

HIGH LIFE
10-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Greg, In the picture #2 it appears that the splashwell is a seperate piece, was this boat made as I/O too. "HIGH LIFE"

Carbo
10-08-2010, 07:32 PM
That transom waterline in the middle picture is NOT what our older 16's are like. I just looked at some pictures in the first couple pages of the 16 OB HP thread and they all have at least 4" more......that '95 transom is scary....I am having my transom redone so I may have it raised a few inches anyway, using a setback jackplate will give me a bit of adjustment, I plan on using a 20" motor. I do like your flush well though and am considering it....a lot of work though.

Greg Guimond
10-09-2010, 08:12 PM
Donzi Classic's in general, and the 16's in particular have limited storage as everyone has mentioned. I wanted to give Surface Tension as much hidden storage as possible. Clint came up with some good ideas and we have changed the wet storage cooler as shown in pic #1 below. The goal is to be able to fold down the center armrest and reach in for a for a cold soda. Behind that cooler, we hope to have a slim dry storage locker. This will be used for cell phones, keys or that kind of stuff for the rumble seat passengers. It won't be much as you can see in pic # 2, but better then nothing :crossfing:

Greg Guimond
10-27-2010, 08:45 PM
I also have to do a little more detail work on forward storage. I figure might as well think through the options. I am 100% on the front bench with fold down armrest and storage within as shown in pic #1. I'd also like to have Clint add a couple of recessed water bottle holder locations like pic #2. There might be enough room for them on the forward port and starboard wall and it would be cool to use LED to "glow" them a bit at night. Not sure they will fit but I think they will and I'll want them to look factory. No jumbo bottles, just enough for the 12oz screw top bottles or maybe have to drop down to 8oz to loose some height :crossfing:

Sweet Cheekz
10-28-2010, 09:38 AM
Gotta give it to you Greg You really think everything thru. Livorsi just came out with a cup holder that has a built in LED and I put them in my boat They are really cool at night

Parnell

Greg Guimond
10-28-2010, 08:32 PM
Thanks, right now we are slowed down a bit and starting to really want my gas tank to show up. Another smaller detail I am thinking of is a slight shock spring for the rumble seats only. It would be nice to soften the ride just a touch for the kids and I am wondering if a small glasswork change to the seat box bases would allow something like the seat spring in pics below to be installed into a recessed notch. As pictured, they stand far to proud, but I suspect they might come in various heights? The problem is I have NO idea who the supply company is, I only have these photos. Will 1"-2" of travel produce anything meaningful in added comfort?

Opinions or sarcasm welcome :confused:

Greg Guimond
10-28-2010, 09:13 PM
I also a thinking about something really wacky. I am told that Allison has a new nav marker light that includes, somehow, LED dock spots that are built in. Anyone have any info on these? The other option is to go with a standard classic bow light from the O/B or the split lense bow light from the early 16 I/O and find a way to "sweep" the top with a single LED white flood light controlled by a switch with a dimmer. It's always nice to have some extra lighting on the dock. Hmmmmmm, have to noodle this a bit.

Carbo
10-28-2010, 09:47 PM
I got one of these for my bow. LED bright and low profile.


http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/stealthliht.jpg

Planetwarmer
10-28-2010, 11:12 PM
I got one of these for my bow. LED bright and low profile.


http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/stealthliht.jpg
A feller at west marine told me that coast guard doesn't approve LED running lights because they aren't bright enough.

Greg Guimond
10-29-2010, 07:47 AM
Strange as LED is far brighter then normal lighting. Anyone have any knowledge of where I might go to research the Allison combo Nav lights?

Carbo
10-29-2010, 08:07 AM
A feller at west marine told me that coast guard doesn't approve LED running lights because they aren't bright enough.


Yep those West Marine guys are really knowledgeable sometimes. This model is CG certified for vessels under 20 meters. I think I'm ok. 90% less juice to run it and no bulb contacts to always clean works in my book.:)

Greg Guimond
10-29-2010, 03:23 PM
Well, today my tank came in.....at least the tank bottom... :yippie:
Clint and his team have been spot on with all there suggestions and the quality of the work so far has been outstanding. With that as backdrop, I went with The Master Fabricator's suggestion to use a local metal shop for the belly tank. Can't say that I have not been skittish so far as the tank quality and execution in this build is super critical, and I don't know anything about the shop doing the work. This approach is very unusual for me, but I trust the Master Fabricator so its "all on black" now. The metal shop prefers to use a huge break to bend, instead of weld, the 1/8" aluminum sheet into shape as a tank bottom. They then drop the bottom off at Clint's so the guys can eyeball the base on a dry set in the hull and suggest any small angle changes that might be needed.

Greg Guimond
10-31-2010, 01:35 PM
There have been a lot of threads on how to protect a new gas tank from rotting out over time. Mr. Carter is the source on most of what works and he was kind enough to provide some pm insights to me a while back. Last night, while guarding the castle on "mischief night", I decided to search up a bunch of details on the "best" way to handle a relatively inexpensive aluminum gas tank. Other materials have been talked about, but if you want to claw back every inch of extra fuel capacity with a custom tank, it seems like aluminum is the only choice that has acceptable weight. When my tank is fully fabbed, I will place it on the electronic scale to get a weight as it is two levels and roughly 6' x 2' so pretty big. I am assuming that it will weigh in under 100lbs in final fully baffled and valved config.

Greg Guimond
10-31-2010, 04:20 PM
I think I came up with the following key preservation steps when I merged all the various comments. This is even more important to me as we run in salt water. Anyway, here goes..........corrections welcome!

1. Scotchguard the entire surface of the aluminum tank and remove EVERY BIT OF SHINE on that aluminum.

2. Clean the entire gas tank surface with a mild soap like Dawn, then dry it with a towel and hairdryer.

3. Wipe down the entire tank with Acetone to remove any traces of oil or contaminants.

4. Now prime the bare gas tank with 3 coats of BASF R-M EP789 two part epoxy primer in black. This particular primer has a lot of zinc chromate. Second choice would be Interlux Primocon.

5. Next and final step will be to apply George Carter's coal tar epoxy treatment. I think this is the stuff...."Epoxy.com Product #216 Coal Tar Epoxy Coating Resin System" is a two component coal tar epoxy coating used to protect steel, concrete structures, timber, and other construction materials in corrosive environments. In my application, I think we will only apply to the bottom, sides, and ends of the custom tank.

The above 5 steps are all intended to protect the tank but as important is how to properly install the tank. On my project, I have no choice but to foam in the tank. I need to so that it adds to the overall structural rigidity of the hull stringers in general, and the pad in particular. This is where I could use some feedback from folks on the board if my choices are wrong. Right now, the plan is to bed the tank directly into a light foam base and also foam the sides and ends in. Then, the top of the gas tank will have mechanical cross fastener strips

gcarter
10-31-2010, 05:15 PM
Way to go Greg!

Aren't you glad you don't have to do the glass work?
I think you have this 16 figured out.

scippy
10-31-2010, 07:37 PM
I have no choice but to foam in the tank. I need to so that it adds to the overall structural rigidity of the hull stringers in general, and the pad in particular. This is where I could use some feedback from folks on the board if my choices are wrong. Right now, the plan is to bed the tank directly into a light foam base and also foam the sides and ends in. Then, the top of the gas tank will have mechanical cross fastener strips

After seeing the consequence of water saturation in and around the compartment where the fuel tanks had been placed in my 27 magnum, it leads me to believe there must be a better way to keep them dry plus keeping them in a stable bedding. Although, I don't have the structural rigidity issues you've explained, I do know that the tanks should have some sort of air circulation around them. On my tanks I intend to place 1/4" neopreme squares to the bottom just high enough for air to circulate around them. To the issue of securing them in?...... there will be welded brackets to the sides of the tanks for attaching to the stringers.......hope this helps.

Greg Guimond
10-31-2010, 08:49 PM
Thanks George. My thoughts, like yours, are although these small details are painful to think through and execute correctly, why not do it right while you have the access. I'd like to think this project gets passed down to our second grade girl decades from now. Scippy, pm me if you want some reading fodder on air flow mount options, I found a bunch of stuff. On my build one of the keys to making the pad work perfectly is to be 100% sure that the structure can't be compromised be even the tiniest amount of deflection at high speeds. The Scientist was adamant about this detail in his report and Clint went to great lengths on the layup. We all agreed that using the tank as almost a "joined" add to the pad would make a lot of sense, thus the need to foam. We still have to figure out exactly how to tab the top of the tank and then strap it. Once the tank is dry set and pictures taken, the options will come into better focus.

gcarter
10-31-2010, 09:35 PM
Scippy, it's been my experience that water finds its way into tank spaces through poorly sealed drains, etc.
The next thing to consider is proper coating. If it's done correctly, the tanks(s) won't corrode.
Foaming them in adds tremendous strength to the hull.
I know there's always exceptions, but in performance boats, where it seems tanks are almost always down in the bilge, it's hard to beat this arrangement.

HIGH LIFE
10-31-2010, 10:33 PM
scippy, In my MAGNUM I have a 1" PVC pipe at the keel that extends thru the bulkheads with a bedding to prevent water from entering area under gas tanks, 1 on each side of center stringer. I put 3/4" blocks at bottom of tank so the foam would flow under the tank. Had to lag 2x4 at top of tank secured to stringers so that tank would not move as foam activates. I would not put tabs on tank and secure to stringers, feel tank can flex. Should paint tank with zinc chromate, and seal floor hatch with silicone... done. "HIGH LIFE"

scippy
11-01-2010, 03:20 PM
Solid information as always from those that know!.........Sorry to sidetrack, but since we're on the subject of foam, a quick question? ......Was foam right there at the avent of the new dawn of fiberglass boats?..........or did it pre-date RPF boats and was commonly used around fuel tanks of earlier hull designs?

gcarter
11-01-2010, 05:31 PM
It's been around tanks since the '70's anyway.
The bad rap it gets has to do w/not following through w/ the other stuff...
Like properly sealed drain pipes. Donzi, and I suppose others, installed drain pipes w/douple sided foam tape?????? How dumb is that?
Also no coatings on the tanks. So water penetrates the space, the uncoated tank corrodes, but the real culprit wasn't the foam.

Greg Guimond
11-01-2010, 06:32 PM
I have no experience with foam so here is a question. I have always assumed that if you roll in a thin layer of foam on the keel of the boat and then set the tank on top, that the foam actually "kicks" and forms an adhesive that grabs onto the bottom of the tank. In addition to structural rigidity, is foam ALSO like Elmers glue?

gcarter
11-01-2010, 07:32 PM
I've only done a few of these. But the stuff grows and exerts an awful lot of force. The tank has to be in place and withstand that force or you can plan on starting over.
I can't conceive of playing w/the tank while that's going on.
That's why I clamp the tank to angles bolted to the stringers.
I just hope for the best w/the foam.

Sweet Cheekz
11-02-2010, 09:13 AM
I agree with George
It has to be mounted in place to the stringers or the foam will move it all around It finds all the little nooks and crannies and fills them.

Parnell

Greg Guimond
11-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Turning away from foam for a minute, it is interesting to read the thread from the start. On post #150, Sept 29
I published The Scientists predictions from his report. Here is the excerpt again.........



Question; What would expected performance difference be with 200hp vs 240hp vs 280hp engine options?

Answer; A similar performance analysis as presented for the 200hp 16 Donzi With Pad, was also completed for the 240hp and 280 hp engine alternatives.

The maximum predicted velocity for the 200hp with pad is 78mph

The maximum predicted velocity for the 240hp with pad is 82mph
The maximum predicted velocity for the 280hp with pad is 86mph
These projections are interesting to me given what the Test Mule has shown so far at 75.8 and 74.1. There is not much time left this season to prove The Scientist right!


11-5-10 End of Season Update shows that "The Mule", working with a 7" pad (which is 3" narrower then "Surface Tension" will carry) and 240hp was able to clock 79MPH on two GPS units before I had the accident. That is right in line with The Scientist's data above showing 82mph.


This leaves me pretty encouraged going into the next phase :yes::yes: :shark:

Greg Guimond
11-07-2010, 12:49 AM
To get the speeds with a wacker, the balance is critical. I'm still wondering how we will do with our custom gas tank location. One thing I came to realize was that Donzi must have changed the gas tank locations for the 16 OB Baby as more hulls were built. We know that the first 16 OB hulls were built in either 1965 or 1966 and the last one's were in 1978. I have always wondered where the gas tanks were located through the years. The only pieces of the puzzle I have been able to put together so far are for the 1972 hull. In the first pic below, Carbo's 1972 shows the tank location being 86" forward of the transom and running 32.5"x23" in size. By 1976, the factory had moved the gas tank rearward toward the transom as shown in pics 2 and 3 below of High Life's 1976 16 OB.

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 06:59 PM
Back at the business end, I'm starting to think through the options on engines and lower units. Most folks on this site seem to use the Alpha SS lower unit if they are trying to break 80mph, so I decided to take a few measurements to compare.........
Pic #1 is an Alpha SS. I'm not sure what the diameter is of the barrel where the prop meets it.
Pic #2 is an XR-6 lower unit with a Bob's LWP installed.
Pic #3 is the tried and true Sportmaster.
Pic #4 is the Torquemaster

Then Pic #5 ........quite a difference!

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 07:56 PM
And here is an excellent excerpt on lower unit dynamics .............

Most people think sporty's were designed to be sleek and make you go faster. Correct, but only if used properly. The reality is, the additional metal in the water can slow you down due to drag.

When the first crescent leading edge gear cases were made, they were actually designed to prevent blow out. Crabbing of the gear case can cause a ventilating bubble, that if allowed to grow long enough, will attack the high pressure side of the propeller blades causing the propeller to blow out. Since this takes a lot of speed to develop, the blow out situation can be dangerous.

While I was at Mercury in earlier days, we used to tell people you needed to be concerned about blow out above 80 mph with standard gear cases. We learned there was a lot more to it than just the gear case. The big variable was the dynamics of the hull. Some applications could run well into triple digits with standard cases and never experience the ill affect of blow out. Any body running into the 80's with outboards still needs to be aware of the possibility. But, Bravo drive cases are capable of higher speeds without blowing out.

So, to combat the down side of the longer case and extra metal in the water, the cases really need to run at extra high "X" dimensions. Keeping the case high and surfacing the props allows these designs to do what they were intended to do, make you go faster. So what you have is a bigger overall case with less material in the water than the smaller case. So here in lies the dilemma. Many boats can't carry the bow with the props on the surface. Bigger deeper V hulls may need the props buried to run well. So when considering Sportmaster style gear case you need to ask yourself a few important questions..........

Is my boat going to run into and above the 80 mph mark? __________
Also, does my boat need a lot of bow lift? ___________
Can it fly the front end at speed without too much trim? ___________

If you answered yes, no, yes, you may be the perfect candidate for a sportmaster style gear case.

Carbo
11-11-2010, 08:21 PM
If they moved the tank rearwards in the '76 model why does my floor bin look like it would fit that boat? The hole would expose the pickup like it did on my '72.....

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/deck%20off%20donzi/100_1243.jpg

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 08:35 PM
More importantly, where was your gas tank in relation to your floor locker when you got the boat? If your tank was forward of the inspection hole of your floor locker, or worse, the leading edge of your floor locker, I'd suggest that you have a "non" 1972 factory floor locker. Perhaps a floor locker from a 76, 77, 78.

Carbo
11-11-2010, 08:45 PM
With my floor locker in place the tank pickup was exposed by the hole. My point is that that '76 looks exactly like mine. From that picture of the '76 I do not believe the tank location changed from '72.

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 08:49 PM
Interesting. If anyone else with a 1972 or later takes a look at there tank that might help explain it. Perhaps you are right, perhaps BOTH tank locations were available and it was a random choice at the factory?

Carbo
11-11-2010, 08:58 PM
Found a picture.....looks like the same as the '76 to me......

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/bigsnook1/deck%20off%20donzi/DSCN7149.jpg

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 09:07 PM
HIGH LIFE has a 1976. Maybe he can take a measurement from his transom up to the start of his tank.

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 09:17 PM
And from a current member, here is a note about 16 gas tank sizes .........

the only change to the location of the tank in a 16 is when they went to the larger 40 gallon tank it was moved forward not back so the front bulkhead was moved forward hence so did the front lifting eye

gcarter
11-11-2010, 09:19 PM
Greg, when I did some workk on VonKamp's late '60's 18 barrelback, it had an insert that looked just like that.
I moved the aft tank frame rearward and installed a 41 gal. tank.
I had every intention of shortening the recessed portion of it while at the same time, lengthening the flat portion. Barry put it on hold so I never had the opportunity to do it.

Greg Guimond
11-11-2010, 09:36 PM
George,
Do you think that style of floor locker {----\____ }, the type that had two levels and had the round inspection hole, was a standard size floor tub that was around the factory for both 16's and 18's over many years?

gcarter
11-11-2010, 09:59 PM
I don't know, but I would guess it was in 18's for just a few years, but longer in 16's.

Greg Guimond
11-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Back to the lower units, if you read back through a variety of comments from site members there is always a lot of conversation around ideal trim angles. So far, my top speed of 79 has been reached with a Sportmaster lower and a Tempest + prop. Next in line was 77 with a Sporty and a Turbo Fusion 4 prop. Last was 75.8 with a Torquemaster and Turbo Fusion 4 prop. I was very surprised that the speeds were so close together given the major changes of the LU's. If I look for the best OVERALL balance, it has been with the Turbo Fusion 4 and Sporty.

Below are pics of the ideal trim of that combo and as you can see the bow is very high and thus is scrubbing off speed. The goal is to get the attack angle of pic #2 but get that when running at the higher speeds

I have another lower unit in mind for testing...........I think it may be the best of all worlds and still be able to take a beating. I'd like to think I could pick up "several" MPH.

mrfixxall
11-12-2010, 11:42 AM
Greg, are you using stock propellers?

Greg Guimond
11-12-2010, 01:13 PM
So far yes. I want to stick with stock first until I dial in the proper all around wheel and lower unit. Once that happens, then some prop labbing may be in order. I think I have the right wheel with the Turbo Fusion 4 but need to go from 24 to either 25 or 26. I do not however feel that the Sporty lower unit is the right fit and have a plan to change that.

HIGH LIFE
11-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Greg, Just measured... my gas tank is 89" transom to rear of tank. "HIGH LIFE"

Greg Guimond
11-12-2010, 05:42 PM
Thanks HIGH LIFE, that proves Carbo right. His 1972 tank is 87" forward and your 1976 tank is 89" forward so my theory goes out the window !!

Greg Guimond
11-12-2010, 07:39 PM
Parnell has the attack angle figured out with his 16 and runs an SS lower unit with a Turbo 3 Blade, but he also has a 6' long and low belly tank of 50 gallons + that starts right forward of the engine bay. Next to him is Younger's 16 Blackhawk. Not sure what speed he has here but I believe his gas tank is factory stock at 87" forward of the transom. These two guys are the fastest and have stock hull bottoms so it is interesting to see the attack angle of each.

Greg Guimond
11-12-2010, 08:07 PM
Younger's 16 bow is running a little higher then I would have thought.

Greg Guimond
11-14-2010, 12:31 AM
Here is my secret weapon ...............

gcarter
11-14-2010, 05:41 AM
Here is my secret weapon ...............

And the squirrel cage goes on top? LOL :wink:

I think something's missing! :wink:

That's an interesting lower Greg.
Outboards are something I don't know much about.
It's interesting following what you're doing.

Sweet Cheekz
11-14-2010, 08:58 AM
Parnell has the attack angle figured out with his 16 and runs an SS lower unit. Not sure what wheel, but he also has a long and low belly tank.

26 Pitch 3 blade turbo Grizz special

Parnell

Carbo
11-14-2010, 07:10 PM
Here is my secret weapon ...............

Props for that thing should be REAL easy to come by......:wink:

Greg Guimond
11-29-2010, 08:08 PM
I have NOTHING new to report on the build. We are off for the Xmas season :yes:

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 02:26 PM
:salute::salute::salute:

Carbo
11-30-2010, 03:48 PM
Greg, did they raise the front part of the transom well when they raised the aft to the transom top? I am wondering if I could get away with sort of hinging the well up at the rear and leaving it attatched slightly in the front and then glassing it. Or did they completely cut it out and replace it...if they cut it completely out did they re-use part of it?

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 04:26 PM
George C or others could better answer but here is my .02

I believe you are trying to create a "shortcut cheater" to re-doing your splashwell. In our case we just cut the whole thing out and then re-did it. This was AFTER i decided I didn't like the look of a flush inspection hatch in the spalshwell slope and wanted an uninterrupted surface with no grime catches. The factory spalshwell DOES have enough thickness to very carefully do a half slice at the forward edge. That would create a "hinge" and you could very gingerly change the slope of that piece of the splashwell UP to meet the factory transom lip height, or anywhere below. I suspect it would save you some work but others on the board would need to add comments on how much work would be saved. You would want to be very precise with your cuts and not rush any of it.

Carbo
11-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Exactly...the 1/2 slice hinge is what I had in mind. Just seems to me a complete removal would be more work.....

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 08:17 PM
I want to put recessed soda bottle holders in my hull. I like the 16oz size as it doubles as a handy 2 stroke oil holder in a pinch. It looks like it might be a tight fit though.

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 08:25 PM
It turns out that the deck tub narrows to where it almost meets the hull sides at the floor level. To make a Livorsi LED drink holder work you need 5" min at the base. That can't happen so we have to start raising the cut out UP the hull tub side which then interferes with the shifter. Have to think it over a bit as I'd like to put the same drink holder on the Port side in the exact same location. On the Port side there will be a vertical hand hold as well, in the same location as the shifter on the starboard side. They will both have to be higher on the tub then I might have hoped. Not sure how that will look but if it looks like crap I could perhaps re-purpose them to either cell phone/key holders or maybe speakers? Do speakers even come that small??

Greg Guimond
11-30-2010, 08:37 PM
I also have tried to get these guys to sell me something but no luck so far.

mermademarine
12-05-2010, 05:46 PM
Maybe this is of some use.

AndyDiSario
12-16-2010, 09:32 PM
Just catching back up. Here are some pointers I'd missed before.

Post #130. The 37-lb aluminum jackplate weight figure was as advertised, and also is the shipping weight. I did not have the opportunity to weigh the plate personally, though it is certainly believable to me.

Post #162. On storage space of the Classic 16 Baby. I guess everything is relative. Our OB Donzi offers tons of storage compartment space, especially as compared to the Personal Watercraft which we've stepped up from. The floor locker is small, however is complemented by so many additional areas. We store two anchors in the ski area under the bow, as well as four lifevests under the bow. There is generous space under the stern bench, but the stern lockers open to cavernous areas which just blow me away. Granted I had to bolt on drawstrings and tie them to drybags, but the space is generous for fenders and all sorts of gear. There is so much stuff we take boating!

Lately, I've taken to stashing ballast bags also to help keep the lightweight hull down from chinewalking, stowed in the more remote areas under and beyond these compartments.

I believe in "A place for everything and everything in its place" - Ben Franklin. Still, this is hard to follow as our guests seem to kick off shoes, leave towels, hats, sunglasses and all sorts of items strewn about the cockpit, often on the seats or floor. I have places to secure all these items, though they're not often used. This simply gives me more concern about items flying out of the boat at speed, but so be it. Regardless of warnings, once guests see items actually fly away and me circle around to hunt for them, they eventually figure it out and use a little more common sense. Funny thing is no one left these same items loose on the seats or floorboards of our PWC of the past! Oh well.

-Andy

BUIZILLA
12-17-2010, 07:37 AM
was the chine walk worse or better with the jackplate?

AndyDiSario
12-17-2010, 08:53 AM
I took the easy way out. I added several marine cup holders from West Marine to our Donzi. They are made of a crushable vinyl and do not get in the way. Obviously, cup holders were not commonplace in vehicles (if invented at all) in 1972.

One cup holder is used for a rechargable Eco-friendly marine air-horn which is powered by simple compressed air, refillable with a Shraeder valve exactly the same as a road-vehicle tire. I guess once in a great while, the environmentalists influence the market towards our direction (bang-for-the-buck performance motorheads) instead of away from it (such as choking 1970s car performance with premature emissions controls, or taking away R12 Freon).

Back to cup holders. I like to joke about these designed- and molded-in to our other boat, a Stingray 181RS, as the "world's-best." No one so far has disputed this tongue-in-cheek claim. These six are positively huge, holding all sorts of large cups or items. Also, they are self-draining in that each has a factory-drilled hole in its base which drains into the bilge. Pretty neat, and even the auto industry has not yet come up with cup holders this clever or useful.

-Andy

AndyDiSario
12-17-2010, 09:59 AM
I now view the jackplate, as well as the right SS prop as indispensible to this boat setup. Lower the motor for best hook-up and least noise also. Middle height works well for general use. Raise the motor to delay the onset of the dreaded chine walk, to approach maximum speed or simply to carefully idle out of shallow water.

Some of this varies with prop choice, of which I remain well on the learning curve.

In short, chine walk is delayed with motor up. Raising the motor obviously minimizes drag, but also seems to help push the keel down. Prop choice can be significant. At least for myself, most significant so far is simply the weight the boat carries. I've noticed so far by experience more weight holds the hull down, thus delaying the walk. Still more experimentation remains to be done.

More than ever, I believe one crosses through several orders of magnitude in doing what we've done to these little boats -- adding so much additional power and performance potential. Key word: "potential." The water is a far-different medium than the road when it comes to adding power and speed to high-performance vehicles. With the cars and motorcycles of which I am still-more accustomed, performance resulting from increasing power is relatively linear.

-Andy

Greg Guimond
12-23-2010, 08:59 AM
Maybe this is of some use.

Thanks, that deck weight of 343lbs is very interesting. What year is your 16 OB hull again and how did the core look on your deck when you removed it?

mermademarine
12-23-2010, 11:19 AM
1972 hull and only two small sections of bad core, both under the bench seat at drain holes. I added two foam filled boxes at the transom, outboard of the stringers for additional transom strength as well as flat storage shelves under the hatches. I have also added an additional hatch under the port side of the bench seat with a battery tray underneath. There will be a few gallons of additional gel coat weight as well. I intend to weigh the boat once it is reassembled before installation of the engine.

Greg Guimond
12-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Nice that you caught good core for the most part. We are almost done with all the little hull tweaks that are needed. Struggled a little bit with proper fab for a forward battery holder should it be needed. The tweaks do seem to keep popping up here and there. The last one to be added are little chart holders just forward of the opening below the dash. Even if the opening is only a few inches, there really is no place to store charts and papers so these will really come in handy. There is just enough recess to make the holders look factory :yes:

Greg Guimond
12-23-2010, 02:24 PM
We may also have to change direction on the recessed drink holder concept. The clearance is super tight down low, so the cuts would have to be moved up the tub wall. As they move up they may look odd and obstruct the shift lever.

I am thinking that it might be cleaner to "add" them to the chart holders in some fashion. You might then still be able to LED the base and integrate it into the chart holder. Then glass it all to the hull side and you are set.

Hmmmmmmmmm.........forgive my art work!

yeller
12-23-2010, 06:46 PM
What about recessing them as much as you can, then build out to accommodate? I think that would still look nice.

Greg Guimond
12-24-2010, 09:40 AM
Yeller, forgive my artwork, but something like this pic? Maybe use a piece of 3" or 4" PVC pipe to form the sleeve?

Greg Guimond
12-24-2010, 09:50 AM
'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, and the pad replaced the mouse!!

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 11:27 AM
A little progress before the New Year. Here are the storage cavities that will be under each rumble seat. Nice radius cut out and then primed. We are not going to prime ANY more of the hull now at this point until the full tank is finished and trial fitted and all the little checklist build items are gone through. It is surprising how even on a tiny boat like the 16 there always seems to be one more thing on the "list". It makes Mr. Carter's efforts all the more amazing.

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 11:36 AM
The transom will require a corner brace on both sides to be glassed in. These will be used to hang rigging pumps as needed. Here is a pic of a 12"x12" which will be raised up a bit to not trap moisture and also allow you to retrieve lost nuts and washers. There is 5" space behind so enough for your hand and wrenches.

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 11:45 AM
The battery location will be one of the last thing that gets decided so we need some flexibility for front to rear. The front location will be under the bow floor to keep as low a center of gravity as possible. It is 88" back from the bow tip in the second photo below. At the rear I also want something fabricated to allow for a ski pole.

yeller
12-31-2010, 02:41 PM
Hey Greg, in reference to your drawing in post 227, that's pretty much what I was talking about. You have a few inches to recess the holder, correct? Recess it as much as you can and then build outwards enough to accept a drink holder. If the transition is curved smoothly enough, I think it'll look real good.

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Thanks Yeller, we are looking into that. Also have to set up for a small Fortress Anchor. I'd like to have a set of SS chocks all the way up front in the nose for occasional use but a little worried about how it could be secured with no fear of ripping loose. I also think that we can use the two transom hatches to glass in fender holders. Polyform offers a small G1 3.5"x13" fender in red and I think we can glass in 3 sleeves per side so that there is an easy holding spot for extra little fenders as needed. You can't have enough fenders.

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 03:19 PM
Also coming back around to the gel pattern and if a small boot stripe is the best way to go. I am leaning heavily toward no boot stripe at all. Here are some photos of both.

Greg Guimond
12-31-2010, 04:51 PM
While there is still a lot of little glasswork things to complete on the hull, it is into 2011 with a freshly primed deck from Clint and the team. Nice.... :superman:

And here in pic #2 below is a flattie with a three person bolster. Done by one of the best shops on the left coast it is very cool. I wish I could do center steering on the build. Hmmmmmm :idea::idea: In thinking of how the upholstery will come together, I have catalogued different front bench photos for ideas.

I wonder how hard a deck plug would be and what weight it would save if done via vacuum infused composite. It weighs 409lbs pre-spray. If anyone out there, maybe Offshore Ginger, or others have a feel for weight reduction v strength I'd appreciate any input. Can the deck weight be reduced by 50%?

Greg Guimond
01-11-2011, 09:47 PM
16's have no storage so I wanted to use every space. I figured out a wet/dry storage locker set up between the rumblers and Clint and team did a nice job with the initial fabrication. I think we'll spray them red.

Carbo
01-11-2011, 10:02 PM
OK enough is enough. Every time you change something you get me thinking. Now I'm looking into changing the under front deck area to flat w/storage.......You got me changing the motor well also.......just finish it already. lol. Looks great Greg.:yes:

I'm still sanding/filling/priming top deck........bracing hull/sanding hull.......

Greg Guimond
01-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Every time I change something I get ME thinking :lookaroun: That is half the fun anyway. We now have a gas tank, it should be north of 51 gallons but not 100% sure by how much. At the last minute I had the sender location moved in hopes of using a different sender vendor. I have to look up the GC tank preservation procedure to make sure this thing last decades.

Greg Guimond
01-15-2011, 08:00 AM
Still have to ensure that the tank lasts forever. I'm thinking perhaps we should NOT foam the tank bottom. Here is a redux of the steps and foam. Any thoughts on the foam from those who have done it welcomed :crossfing:

1. Scotchguard the entire surface of the aluminum tank and remove EVERY BIT OF SHINE on aluminum.

2. Clean entire tank surface with a mild soap like Dawn, dry it with a towel and hairdryer.

3. Wipe entire tank down with Acetone to remove traces of oil or contaminants.

4. Pime the bare gas tank with 3 coats of BASF R-M EP789 two part epoxy primer in black. This particular primer has a lot of zinc chromate. Second choice would be Interlux Primocon.

5. Final step will be to apply George Carter's coal tar epoxy treatment. I think this is the stuff...."Epoxy.com Product #216 Coal Tar Epoxy Coating Resin System" is a two component coal tar epoxy coating used to protect steel, concrete structures, timber, and other construction materials in corrosive environments.

In my application, I think we will only apply to the bottom, sides, and ends of the custom tank. The above 5 steps are all intended to protect the tank but as important is how to properly install the tank. On my project, I have no choice but to foam in the tank. I need to so that it adds to the overall structural rigidity of the hull stringers in general, and the pad in particular. This is where I could use some feedback from folks on the board if my choices are wrong. Right now, the plan is to bed the tank directly into a light foam base and also foam the sides and ends in. Then, the top of the gas tank will have mechanical cross fastener strips. Below is an example.

Greg Guimond
01-17-2011, 03:44 PM
With the long weekend and no snow I got to thinking on windscreens and the like. Not sure I even like the idea yet, but came up with a thought that might stay within the project's resto-mod theme of what the factory might do if they were to build the 16 Baby OB today. Could also do a single middle and make it the L solid to match the stripe and deck color when in the down and flush position. I have heard that a "lip" at the top of the screen will significantly redirect the wind flow.

Have to give it some more thought, but off the cuff picture .............(sans shaggy dog in back window:))

mermademarine
01-17-2011, 05:30 PM
I just saw your last reply after suggesting a deployable wind screen on another thread.
In response to your another question, a foamed in tank will last forever if you can keep the water off of it, if not let it breathe.
If you have the space you can tape 1/2 foam board to your tank, cover it in plastic and foam it in. Once the foam has cured you can pop the tank, glass over the foam, and install the tank on dry deck or something similar.

Carbo
01-17-2011, 06:22 PM
I went the coal tar epoxy route. Sanded with 220 wiped down with acetone, sanded again lightly and washed with acetone again. Then rolled on 3 coats of Rustoleum 2 part coal tar epoxy. I found no need to prime as I tried a test area and could not remove the coal tar with a scraper afterwards. The can even said apply to clean degreased metals. I bet the finished coating is probably 3/16" thick. Came out great. I am going to foam it in place leaving channels between foam areas room for any water to drain out.

The area it goes into will not be sealed an will drain aft. I opted not to seal the area as I am sure water will at some point get to it. Pictures will follow on my resto thread later.

Greg Guimond
01-18-2011, 07:29 PM
Looking forward to the pictures.....thanks

HIGH LIFE
01-19-2011, 07:09 PM
The gas tanks in my MAGNUM had a 3/4" plastic hose on the keel, it was siliconeed as it passed thru the bulkheads, to keep the water from pooling. "HIGH LIFE"

Greg Guimond
01-21-2011, 08:53 PM
I've developed the retro concept a bit more with the help of several board members. I am starting to think I can create a design that works within the factory theme and does not look like chit. Goal is to have it look cool instead but the jury's out on that! The factory offered a windshield after all, right? It still needs some development but the thought is to do two windscreens, no more then 14" high as the factory screen is 14" high. They must be removable as they will be seldom used. I'll also set things up so that the windscreens can be used to shield the rumble seat riders if needed so as to help the little ones who want to take a spin. I have to think about where to store them and how. Thanks to Axel for working up some custom shots that helped me to visualize the concept, to Tony for opinions, and to Jay for giving me a bunch of measurements off his factory 16 windshield. Here is Tony's commentary............

Greg,
I sold my Ski Sporter to Jay Lurie (jl1962) about 6 year ago. He took the factory windshield off, but I'm sure he still has it and could measure it. My wife loved the windshield. When she sat in the wrap-around bench, with her back towards the bow and her legs straight aft, she would be entirely out of the wind...meaning I could go WOT whenever I wanted! I'm 5'11" and, by slightly slouching and leaning, I also could place myself entirely out of the wind.

To me, on an older Ski Sporter, the factory windshield looked fine. Coupled with the effectiveness of it, in my opinion it is a worthwhile item.

Good luck!
Tony

Greg Guimond
01-21-2011, 09:44 PM
Here are some pics for those who care. Helps me to see it all on "paper" :wrench::wrench:

Just Say N20
01-22-2011, 08:24 AM
I have owned a SeaRay 200 BR (20' Bow Rider), and spent a LOT of time in a 1984 Larson 17' bow rider.

When either was set up with the bow rider cover in place, which made it like a closed bow boat, but the center section of the windshield was left open (the walk through glass folded back against the passenger windshield), the resulting turbulence was such that you had to lean against the outside edge of the cockpit to avoid it. When the center section was closed, it was a completely different, and substantially better situation. The reduction in wind was substantial.

If you are building a windshield for the purpose of wind reduction, it might make sense to have the windshield span the entire cockpit.

Greg Guimond
01-22-2011, 08:47 AM
Good feedback Bill. I'm no aerodynamics ace but I wonder if the dual windscreens had a small amount of radius in them that it would help alter that. I don't have the hull in front of me at the moment, but I was thinking of duplicating the slight radius that the front of the _ockpit has. While full width would clearly be a more efficient windscreen, I think it might kill the "look" I'm going for. It also would make storage a significant issue, where with the duals I think I can work some options in this tiny hull.

Curious, was the glass you reference dead flat?

Just Say N20
01-22-2011, 10:12 AM
Curious, was the glass you reference dead flat?

The SeaRay windshield was curved nicely at the outside corners, and almost flat in the middle. The Larson windshield was done with plate glass, so no curves.

Greg Guimond
01-23-2011, 11:35 AM
Ok, put all the various puzzle pieces together in my head and here is where I ended up on the wind screen concept. Maybe if Axel is feeling kind he can work his magic to do a mock up whenever he has time. I believe to make it all work I'll need to figure out if I have to use glass, lexan or acrylic. Whatever it ends up being it will be clear. I also think to make it work I'll need hinged returns on both sides. This way I can still have two screens, but join the center wings if needed. On the rear rumble seats the mounting will not be a problem, but on the front deck, I still have to noodle that a bit. I want the screens to sit close to the factory hand rail, but there will be a lot of rigging in the way that close to the dashboard so mounting there may not be practical. Need the boat in front of me for that piece of the program. Also need to find an ace fabricator for the SS frames and hinges so lots to do.

axelkloehn
01-24-2011, 02:59 AM
Greg, here are some ideas:

I would do the center glass in one piece, you can still bolt it on or off, with two center pieces it looks too complicated. I think it also looks better if you leave it without the side wind-aways, just a center piece. And the center glass could be done in colored lexan matching the deck-stripe, in your case cause your deck stripe looks black make it very dark tinted- would be kinda cool...

Greg Guimond
01-24-2011, 09:46 PM
Big thanks Axel, I am getting the "picture". Doing the center as a single piece makes more sense. I think I would have a simple piece of glass that would just slide down into a recessed or hidden channel on the primary left and right screen frames. Those frame surrounds would be done out of 316 SS Mirror Finish. On the side wings, I kind of like the fighter plane look and there is no doubt that some type of wing significantly helps with the airflow buffeting function. There would also need to be a 1" "lip" at the top of the two primary screens to re-route the airflow above your head (hopefully) and send it back to the eggbeater. I'm also thinking the size of the primary screens would be about 14" high and 25" wide to match the width of the rumble seat hatches, and then set at a minor rake of maybe 15 degrees to the deck or fairly upright. We set down some 1x2 stock that followed the line of the rumble hatches to see how that transposed foward. The deck stripe will be 7" wide of the overall 53" width. Jay was also kind enough to take a look at his factory windshield and tells me that the rake is between 40 and 45 degrees. Thanks JL :yes: This may change what rake I decide on.

Greg Guimond
01-30-2011, 07:02 PM
The cool thing about this forum is it gives me a chance to go back in and add bunches of content well after the fact. It helps me keep the build straight in my head or else I would loose track of all the details as I'm certainly no blogger. Time to think about upholstery options so we decided to do a dry fit to see how things look. It's not like there is a lot of cushions. I will use solid red. Not sure of the exact details yet, but before we gel, I have to decide on what shade of red vinyl will be used. This way we can match the red gel to the red vinyl. If anyone has done solid red vinyls and has any input it would be welcome. I am not sure on pleat width and bolster patterning yet but I do know the pipe will be the same red. I want a crisp, but retro look.