hand laid fiberglass classic 18

[jacksonaills]

Question: Does anybody know the last year that an 18 classic would have been built with hand laid fiberglass?.. Also, is one constructed with hand laid glass a better or stronger hull?

[chappy]

'87.

Don't know which is better or stronger, sorry.

[gcarter]

I would say that all the classics have been hand laid.
There was discussion about at the beginning of the OMC era that
the new managemant wanted to use chopper guns, but I don't
know that it actually happened w/the Classic series.

[gcarter]

That being said.....
from the beginning, there never was enough glass in most of these boats until the AMH boats in '93.
I can surely show you where.....
I think pre AMH 18's are better than 22's and other larger Classics.

[mattyboy]

I am not really sure about from the begining being light on glass. they did have a few instances of bottom failure on the early boats pre 66 after they were repowered when stronger motors and drives came about. They learned from this the layup got heavier. there is a big difference in the layup of a 65 compared to a 67


but from what I have seen barring flat out neglect or abuse the early Chisholm/teleflex boats have held up well over the last 40 plus years.

they layup on my 67 was solid, as is the layup on my new 68 boat. you can see the difference in the mindset from quality , solid ride to a mindset of I don't care but it has to go this fast

[mrfixxall]

1977 was the last year for the heavy layup's then 1978 the boats started getting lighter and the chopper gun was introduced..

[BUIZILLA]

That being said.....
from the beginning, there never was enough glass in most of these boats until the AMH boats in '93. I can surely show you where..... [quote] dunno 'bout dat.. my '92-22 had the thickest hull of ANY 22 i've yet seen to date..

[quote=mrfixxall;559630]1977 was the last year for the heavy layup's then 1978 the boats started getting lighter and the chopper gun was introduced.. nope... study the 22's that started production in 78-79-80 and up for a few years and re-think that..

[mrfixxall]

[quote=gcarter;559627]That being said.....
from the beginning, there never was enough glass in most of these boats until the AMH boats in '93. I can surely show you where..... [quote] dunno 'bout dat.. my '92-22 had the thickest hull of ANY 22 i've yet seen to date..

nope... study the 22's that started production in 78-79-80 and up for a few years and re-think that..

ok mabe it was a sales pitch from the guy i bought it from back in 1985..

jack corbit back in 1985 is who i bought my x from and he bought it from a guy named jerry who was the oe owner of my boat which saw my boat being built when he bought it from donzi..im only going by what jack and jerry told me..at the time i got mine it had a 331 blown 671 sbc in it and over the transom headers in it which he use to race out at blarneys island every thursday night..when i got it he gave me the 350 lt1 motor with it..

thats just what i was told by jack from jerry..:)

[NJFASTECH]

Probably a chop hull which was in fair shape my 82 Hornet all cloth 0n the stringers,(pine to boot) actually dissapointed with the build but all gone now all new stringers 1-1/2" fully wrapped in with biaxle glass all chines had to be raked out and filled and glassed over,transom done too.Moseller tank.

[mattyboy]

to my knowledge a chopper gun was never used in any donzi production until OMC gained ownership 88ish.

the early 22s were tanks , the general feeling is that all OMC donzi boats were bad which IS not true once the molds made it to goshen IN. the classics that left there were very solid with great fit and finish

[gcarter]

I probably wasn't specific enough since there are so many caveats.


It seems that all 22's and Minx's had minimaly glassed stringers w/flat bottomed stringer cores w/voids under them.
The strake pockets were filled w/non hardening putty that often overlapped the area of the pocket and kept the inner and outer layups from bonding to each other and they seperated, causing layup failure. You can look at the red boat thread and see what I'm talking about. I don't know how they did it in Indiana. But boats were only built in Indiana for a few years. They were built in Florida for much longer. This all changed when AMH took over, despite the problems that AMH boats have had, they didn't have the problems I described above. Also, you can always find exceptions. For any anecdotal evidence to the opposite, you can always find exceptions.
Minx decks and all 22 pre AMH decks (again, Indiana built boats may have been built differently) are grossly under glassed and the cockpit floor, and rear seat back tops were sure to crack and perhaps break all the way through. The deck layup in the cockpit area consisted of (from the outside in) 1) gelcoat 2) coremat 3) 3/4" plywood blocks about 6" square 4) ONLY ONE COURSE of 0*-90* bidirectional stitchmat but oriented in such a way that only fibers layed in one direction were effective. The cockpit floor was woefully unsupported and contributed to the failure of floors and seatbacks.
It seems that where this scheme was woefully inadequate in a Minx or 22C, it seems it was sufficient in many 18's due to the smaller size.
Again, you can always find exceptions.

[RedDog]

to my knowledge a chopper gun was never used in any donzi production until OMC gained ownership 88ish.
the early 22s were tanks , the general feeling is that all OMC donzi boats were bad which IS not true once the molds made it to goshen IN. the classics that left there were very solid with great fit and finish

yep - the '90 18 I had from the IN plant had a great lay-up

[mike o]

Your not supposed to use coremat against the gel coat.:wink: There must have been a thin layer of something between. Coremat needs fresh juice on both sides.:yes: Even the 1mm stuff.:cool!:

[CaribouLou]

So cliffnotes here tell me my '90 22' is a big POS?

[gcarter]

Your not supposed to use coremat against the gel coat.:wink: There must have been a thin layer of something between. Coremat needs fresh juice on both sides.:yes: Even the 1mm stuff.:cool!:

Mike, I understand what you're saying and I agree w/you.
However, when you're trying to cut the coremat off the gel w/a 2" wide wood chisel, there doesn't appear to be anything in between.

[gcarter]

So cliffnotes here tell me my '90 22' is a big POS?

I'd never say that.
Your boat may be exceptional.

[CaribouLou]

I'd never say that.
Your boat may be excedptional.


That actually just made me laugh out loud....I love my boat, but its hardly "excedptional"

[gcarter]

Your not supposed to use coremat against the gel coat.:wink: There must have been a thin layer of something between. Coremat needs fresh juice on both sides.:yes: Even the 1mm stuff.:cool!:

After looking at my old pictures, I found my memory was faulty!!!:nilly:
Sure enough, there was a very thin course of mat inbetween the gel and the coremat.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39138&d=1222822928

[gcarter]

I like this picture particularly because it shows the extent of damage that can happen to the cockpit floor.......this floor cracked all the way through and into the center hatch.
It won't happen again!:yes:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39139&d=1222822995

[Cuda]

I never had an inch of deck cracking on my Minx. My 22 had a crack in the deck just forward of the rear seat. When I had the deck removed for a new tank, one of the bulkheads had come loose from the hull. I had them both repaired, a new tank installed, new rubrail, and plumbed with half inch fuel lines from the tank back. I also had a new hatch fabricated, because the previous owner had put a scoop right in the middle of the hatch, and it acted like a shower drain. They had to cut jigs from plywood to get the curvature back to where it was supposed to be.

[BUIZILLA]

speaking of your old 22...

what happened to Howard around here?

[mike o]

:cool!::cool!::cool!: Coremat is a print blocker for heavy rovings (18 oz +) and a laminate stiffener. Mat usually doesn't show print through. Heavy rovings do because the concentration of resin is different where the weave over laps itself and where it doesn't called a window. Cheap GP resins shrink (fast exothermic) ISO resins do not as much. So, at the overlap of the weave, due to a greater concentration of resin at the overlap, you get shrinkage. Thats why today you are seeing the heavier fabrics stitched to finer weaves. Instead of 24+Oz roving, like they used in the old days that showed a ugly profound print through to the outside of the gel. That mat looks like chopper gun stuff to me. You can tell by the length and the diameter of the filamintes.............:yes: Heavy rovings are OK........:yes: for Lobster boats.........:D:D:D

[mattyboy]

:cool!::cool!::cool!: Coremat is a print blocker for heavy rovings (18 oz +) and a laminate stiffener. Mat usually doesn't show print through. Heavy rovings do because the concentration of resin is different where the weave over laps itself and where it doesn't called a window. Cheap GP resins shrink (fast exothermic) ISO resins do not as much. So, at the overlap of the weave, due to a greater concentration of resin at the overlap, you get shrinkage. Thats why today you are seeing the heavier fabrics stitched to finer weaves. Instead of 24+Oz roving, like they used in the old days that showed a ugly profound print through to the outside of the gel. That mat looks like chopper gun stuff to me. You can tell by the length and the diameter of the filamintes.............:yes: Heavy rovings are OK........:yes: for Lobster boats.........:D:D:D


Mike

you see that alot on the early classics if you look close at the bottom in areas you can see the pattern from the roven my 67 had it as did a few others I've seen.

88 testa, begining of the OMC era with Genth and Houser at the wheel they had no one to tell them not to use the chopper gun. The previous owner Jack Staples wanted quality hand built boats that performed and rode well. G&H wanted mass production and top end speed numbers at any cost.

I was under the impression the chopper gun was a time and cost saver but has any methods of construction if not done correctly lead to a
product not at it's best.
I mean a nail gun or a hammer do the same crappy job if you don't hit the studs.

there is definetly a difference in an omc era donzi with a Donzi HIN and one with a Chris Craft HIN

finding the time line for when the construction "goals" changed is the key and not to say that there are not good boats and bad boats from all eras

they notched the stringers on x-18 didn't they???

[mike o]

Well, It could be just as simple as when the chopper gun was developed started to show up in all the shops. That would be the late 60's, early 70's. It was a pretty easy thing to sell, cause they do save time . They just tend to produce a resin rich (brittle) laminate,,,,cause of the amount of glass to resin ratio. And the thickness isnt as uniform. as cutting off the roll. Ive seen pictures of your old 16 and Cliffs 16 with the decks off. Pretty much the way everybody did it back then. Except Century, they used alot of 10 oz cloth in their old late 60's 1st glass boats. That why you still see a ton of old glass Century Resorters still around. Some of then Ive seen, the real early glass ones, the whole transon was built with 10 oz cloth.:yes:

[gcarter]

Mike,
FWIW, the strands on top of the plywood core blocks was from the 0-90 stitchmat they used. When I peeled it off the, some of the mat stayed behind.

[mike o]

10-4 Mr.C. :cool!:. I was hesitant to make that comment cause when U rip and tear or use a grinder..... Its harder to tell. On a virgin laminate, there is definitely a different appearance between the 2. When you cut off the roll, the 2nd dry piece absorbs the excess resin for the 1st. So the laminate is drier and stronger and more uniform, Generally.