Toyota Recall

[Phil S]

Pretty aggressive damage control methinks. However, having owned a Camry in the past that made it to 250k miles before I simply got tired of looking at it and sold it, and a Sequoia with 234k miles on it now and counting (everything still works), I find this stuck accelerator bit about as believable as the old Audi 5000S story. I had, and loved my old 5000s quattro, which was replaced by an Audi 200 quattro, and if I'm remembering correctly, it was later proven that there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the car...driver error.

Please correct my memory if I'm wrong...but I'll betcha there will be a future study proving there ain't a damn thing wrong with these cars.

...and another thing...that 911 call that ended in tragedy....why did he not put it neutral, or if nothing else, turn the damn thing off ? Gearshift and key stuck too ?

JMHO...would like to hear thoughts...

WKR,
Phil S

[mrfixxall]

Their aint a damn thing wrong with the older Toyota's but with the new technology having a computer deciding where the gas pedal is kinda pisses me off when having to work on them..i think they should go back to the old cable style throttle body and they won't have this kind of a problem..thease newer cars bow Ada's have no way of snapping the throttle from under the hood! if you remove the air filter tube it throws a service code and or wont run because of the mass airflow sensor..

now merc is doing the same thing,cable less throttle bodies watch,,next their will be run away boats..


I agree with you on that video, i think its bs that nobody in that Lexus did anything to try to avoid that situation..120mph what should i do? i don't pity stupidity and that was plane stupid...

[gold-n-rod]

...and another thing...that 911 call that ended in tragedy....why did he not put it neutral, or if nothing else, turn the damn thing off ? Gearshift and key stuck too ?
JMHO...would like to hear thoughts...
WKR,
Phil S

I agree that a cop, of all people, should know to put an uncontrolled accelerating car in neutral. The key thing is different. The (loaner) Lexus he was driving had a push button starter. Turns out you need to hold the button down for 3 seconds to turn it off. Not sure I would have known that until I read about it. Certainly not in a panic situation.

[RW2003]

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx

Here's the latest official release from Toyota. At first I thought the solution was going to be a complete replacement of the accelerator pedal unit. Now it seems that there is a "fix" for the existing units.

From the above link....

How Toyota Will Fix Recalled Vehicles


Toyota has pinpointed the issue that could, on rare occasions, cause accelerator pedals in recalled vehicles to stick in a partially open position. The issue involves a friction device in the pedal designed to provide the proper “feel” by adding resistance and making the pedal steady and stable. The device includes a shoe that rubs against an adjoining surface during normal pedal operation. Due to the materials used, wear and environmental conditions, these surfaces may, over time, begin to stick and release instead of operating smoothly. In some cases, friction could increase to a point that the pedal is slow to return to the idle position or, in rare cases, the pedal sticks, leaving the throttle partially open.

Toyota’s solution for current owners is both effective and simple. A precision-cut steel reinforcement bar will be installed into the assembly that will reduce the surface tension between the friction shoe and the adjoining surface. With this reinforcement in place, the excess friction that can cause the pedal to stick is eliminated. The company has confirmed the effectiveness of the newly reinforced pedals through rigorous testing on pedal assemblies that had previously shown a tendency to stick.

Separately from the recall for sticking accelerator pedals, Toyota is in the process of recalling vehicles to address rare instances in which floor mats have trapped the accelerator pedal in certain Toyota and Lexus models (announced November 25, 2009), and is already notifying customers about how it will fix this issue. In the case of vehicles covered by both recalls, it is Toyota’s intention to remedy both at the same time..

Here's another with pretty much the same info:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyotas-official-announcement/

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/Pedal_Assembly-prv.jpg

[Just Say N20]

The value of the Audi 5000 was destroyed by the fraudulent "unintended acceleration" claims.

The last edition of Car & Driver, did another test, similar to the one they did with the Audi.

In every case, the brakes of the car (even including a 540 hp, stage 3 Roush Mustang) were able to over power a floored out engine, and stop the car. They did this from 70 mph and 100 mph. Only the 540 hp Mustang brakes didn't do well from the 100 mph.

I find it amazing that anyone, in a panic with the adrenaline pumping, wouldn't be able to use the brakes to stop the car.

Fortunately, Toyota's reputation is starting off in a way better place than Audi's was.

[Phil S]

I agree. No doubt, Audi 5000s quattro wasn't the easiest car I have ever worked on, and when something went wrong, it was expensive....just for the parts, as I used to do all repairs myself. Nevertheless, it was the most "capable" car I had ever owned....a 200 5-speed quattro followed, and again, a very very capable car indeed. 5-cylinder turbo, enormous brakes, a slug around town, 80 to 100 in a couple of seconds on the highway, and unstoppable in the snow and rain....very capable...

Never once did my accelerator "stick"....(unless on purpose...points on my license can attest to) :lookaroun:

[Phil S]

I'm not knocking American made cars btw.....I own one and it has been just fine as well, maintenance goes a long way. Still have an older German one too...same goes for it. My personal experience has been that Toyota's have been the least expensive to maintain.

Tort meets Toyota.....????

WKR,
Phil

[Phil S]

I agree that a cop, of all people, should know to put an uncontrolled accelerating car in neutral. The key thing is different. The (loaner) Lexus he was driving had a push button starter. Turns out you need to hold the button down for 3 seconds to turn it off. Not sure I would have known that until I read about it. Certainly not in a panic situation.


I agree wholeheartedly, that you shouldn't have to have read a frickin' cars manual to know how to a) shift it into neutral (which should be mechanical for the American Public no matter), nor b) turn the damn thing off with a frickin' button.....

(isn't why this start button and push-button gear selector fad went away in the fifties anyway ? )

WKR,
Phil S

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Seems that Mr. Toyoda san doesn't care to say much on the matter either.

I'll just say it, I can't stand toyota's! I have never liked the looks of their cars, their trucks, they even built an ugly boat! Even when I would race in some SCCA events, the doorknobs in the pits that raced toyota's were some of the more arrogant asses there, one or two laps later I showed them who owned the class! I know, it can work both ways, but when ya try to be polite and to someone ya don't know and they cut down your ride, the gloves are off!

Kinda hard to argue your endurance success Phil. I give credit to you and your maintenance schedule, that along with a cooperative piece of equipment. I gotta believe that if the accelerator was stuck (with as many miles you have logged) that you are certainly capable of shutting down any vehicle.

just my $.02

[silverghost]

Some lawyer is going to make a billion $$$ here with a Class Action Suit scam against Toyota!
The car owners will get a credit letter good for $500 off a new Toyota.

I do not like "Fly By Wire" cars, boats, or aircraft !
Electronics can and do fail !
When they do fail crazy things can and do happen !

[Phil S]

...doubt that I am qualified to "shut-down" any electronically-controlled vehicle anymore...Fishin', even if that was your point...no harm, no foul if it wasn't....Toyota or not.....

[Phil S]

Again, no harm, no foul Fishin'.....

...my worthless opinion is that there is not a machine out there causing reckless havoc among their owners.

Call it tort, call it hyperbole, call it sensationalism...news ?...

Methinks tort. Again, no harm, no foul Fishin'.

With kind regards,
Phil

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Pretty aggressive damage control methinks. However, having owned a Camry in the past that made it to 250k miles before I simply got tired of looking at it and sold it, and a Sequoia with 234k miles on it now and counting (everything still works), I find this stuck accelerator bit about as believable as the old Audi 5000S story. I had, and loved my old 5000s quattro, which was replaced by an Audi 200 quattro, and if I'm remembering correctly, it was later proven that there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the car...driver error.

Please correct my memory if I'm wrong...but I'll betcha there will be a future study proving there ain't a damn thing wrong with these cars.

...and another thing...that 911 call that ended in tragedy....why did he not put it neutral, or if nothing else, turn the damn thing off ? Gearshift and key stuck too ?

JMHO...would like to hear thoughts...

WKR,
Phil S

I know that things can and do get designed poorly. I don't know the facts about the recent Toyota recall, but I am glad to hear that they are taking the bull by the horns. I had a new 1979 Datsun 280ZX (first year of the ZX) that once got the accelerator pedal trapped under the factory floor mat after I floored it in Dallas traffic. Fortunately, I was quick enough to knock it out of gear and kill the ignition before any damage was done, but I thought about how many others this must have happenned to who weren't so quick. Bill

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Again, no harm, no foul Fishin'.....
...my worthless opinion is that there is not a machine out there causing reckless havoc among their owners.
Call it tort, call it hyperbole, call it sensationalism...news ?...
Methinks tort. Again, no harm, no foul Fishin'.
With kind regards,
Phil
No worries Phil, we're all good (well, I realize I am questionable:boggled:). Don't sell yourself short, you can find neutral with the shifter. Who hasn't ever wanted to be one of those test engineers where you are challenged to blow something up (like a motor)?

[CHACHI]

I agree with you on that video, i think its bs that nobody in that Lexus did anything to try to avoid that situation..120mph what should i do? i don't pity stupidity and that was plane stupid...

120 MPH is impossible with a throttle stuck in a "partially open position".

The throttle would of have to have been stuck when the driver was flat footin' it.

I would think in the normal course of driving if the car accelerates "by itself" it wouldn't be a throttle pedal issue.

Besides a stuck throttle at highway speeds, just like cruise control.

Ken

[mrfixxall]

i dont think the pcm would let the vehicle go 120 mph, i believe most cars are regulated bt the pcm so they cant go over 109 mph?

[VetteLT193]

The fundamental issue is driver training in the US is horrible. I swear I could train a monkey to pass the driver test.

I think age should be less of of a concern. Ability should be the main concern.

[zelatore]

Seems that Mr. Toyoda san doesn't care to say much on the matter either.

I'll just say it, I can't stand toyota's! I have never liked the looks of their cars, their trucks, they even built an ugly boat! Even when I would race in some SCCA events, the doorknobs in the pits that raced toyota's were some of the more arrogant asses there, one or two laps later I showed them who owned the class! I know, it can work both ways, but when ya try to be polite and to someone ya don't know and they cut down your ride, the gloves are off!

Kinda hard to argue your endurance success Phil. I give credit to you and your maintenance schedule, that along with a cooperative piece of equipment. I gotta believe that if the accelerator was stuck (with as many miles you have logged) that you are certainly capable of shutting down any vehicle.

just my $.02

I held off from saying anything, but since you opened the door...

When I first heard about this my reaction was 'HA! Take that Toyota!'. not very nice, I know, and probably not even deserved given that I really doubt Toyota is (100%) at fault here. But I really dislike Toyota as a company based on the fact that they produce 'driving appliances' - i.e. the least offensive product in the most non-decrepit and boring way possible.

As for their vaunted reputation for reliability, I've always thought it was more a matter of the low expectations of the average Toyota owner. Example: my mother-in-law used to drive a toyota (paseo). She thought it as a great car. One day I decided to be nice and detail it for her because that great car's red paint was faded to a hazy pink from the tropical Indiana sun. I picked the car up to drive up to my house for the day and nearly lost my mind! Yes, it started right up, but it drove so badly (transmission, brakes, steering, CV joints, etc...) that I couldn't believe she hadn't crashed off the road in a huge ball of flames 20,000 miles ago! I started to point this out but Michele pointed out that her mother only drives around town to shop and go to work, has probably never even driven over 75 mph in her life, and has never reved the car past 3000 rpm (yes, it was a stick at least). She just used so little of the car's designed potential that as long as it started and the radio worked, it was the definition of reliability! To anybody else, it was a huge POS! But guess what? She still thinks Toyota is the end-all, be-all of reliability despite all the recalls.


i dont think the pcm would let the vehicle go 120 mph, i believe most cars are regulated bt the pcm so they cant go over 109 mph?

Don't know about that. I think I've driven pretty much every car I've owned over 109 mph. Some recent examples:

'93 F150 Lightning
'94 F150 Lightning
'99 Saab 9-3
'04 Audi A4
'05 Dodge 1500
'08 BMW 335


The fundamental issue is driver training in the US is horrible. I swear I could train a monkey to pass the driver test.

I think age should be less of of a concern. Ability should be the main concern.

Couldn't agree more!!!!

[rant on]

Example: went up to Yosemite over the weekend for some snowshoeing. Got up to the park entrance and they were requiring chains or 4WD W/snow tires. WTF?? There was barely anything on the roads at all!?! I eventually blew it off and drove through anyway, even up to Badger Pass around 6500' - the only place I encountered the least bit of slippery road.

What amazing snow car was I driving? An SUV? Maybe a Subaru? Even our old Audi quattro? No. A rear drive BMW 335. But I must have had snow tires, right? No. All season tires then? No. Summer only, max-performance Eagle F1 asymmetric's thank you very much! And yet I was able to pull off this amazing feat of driving with no problems. So does this mean I'm a winter driving god, or (sadly for me, more likely) that they have such low expectations of the general public that as soon as a single flake hits the road everybody panics?

Best just to lower everything to the lowest common denominator. Why try to actually teach anybody how to drive? Personal responsibility? naaaa...better to require ABS, traction control, skid control, tire chains, etc...

Here's an idea - how about we crank up the driving standards about 200%, and give the rest of the idiots a buss pass! :mad:

[/rant off]

[FISHIN SUCKS]

I held off from saying anything, but since you opened the door...

Don't know about that. I think I've driven pretty much every car I've owned over 109 mph. Some recent examples:


+1 Don, LOL on your remarks. Call me the doorman, I've been called worse (wowsy wowsy woo woo).

I can honestly say that my '07 Corvalanche (Corvette edition Avalanche) is regulated at 100 mph. I found out one day on the way to work when some douche bag (no, not a toyota, haha) in a Bonneville was screwin' with me. Made a call immediately to the dealership and they told me it was regulated. If I wanted it changed, it would void my warranty. I decided 100 was enough, keep the warranty. Wanna go fast? I'll take the car to the track.

[zelatore]

Wanna go fast? I'll take the car to the track.

Oh, well, of course all my exploits were on the track under controlled conditions. I'd never endorse exceeding the posted speed limit. :wink:

As a side note, on our way back from Yosemite we went down part of hwy 49 known as the 'little dragon' among local bikers. Most of it I had to myself before catching up to a few people. At one point we passed a warning sign about (rock) slides. Michele asked if I thought 'slide' meant the car.

...did I mention I had disabled the traction control before entering the fun part of the road? 2nd gear corners, an empty road, and a lot of torque can be fun. :convertib:

[Just Say N20]

I had been told that cars are "chipped" to be electronically speed limited based on the tires they came from the factory with. I have personally seen cars with the identical engines/transmissions have more than a 40 mph difference in top speed.

My Hemi Magnum came with "H" rated tires. Sure enough, it marches right up to 130 on the GPS, and that's all she wrote. You can take you foot back to about 1/2 throttle and maintain the speed.

I read reviews of a Hemi Magnum that came with "V" rated tires, and it ran 146.

[Just Say N20]

Oh, well, of course all my exploits were on the track under controlled conditions. I'd never endorse exceeding the posted speed limit. :wink:



Seems I remember a post about a certain speed you would have seen, had you looked down at the speedo on your motorcycle (155), but of course you never did look at it. :wink:

I posted the 130 in the Magnum on a private road, with the owner's permission. :biggrin:

[BUIZILLA]

Tom, your governor is at 96 mph...

but it can be set to infinity...

my Dmax is set to 132...

[zelatore]

Tom, your governor is at 96 mph...

but it can be set to infinity...

my Dmax is set to 132...

Geez - 132 in a 1-ton truck is hauling the mail! I wouldn't want to be on my bike when you came by at full steem - the wind blast might knock me into the next county! But I bet I could drop in behind you and pretty much shut it off and coast along in the draft:shades:

[Tony]

120 MPH is impossible with a throttle stuck in a "partially open position".

The throttle would of have to have been stuck when the driver was flat footin' it.

I would think in the normal course of driving if the car accelerates "by itself" it wouldn't be a throttle pedal issue.

Besides a stuck throttle at highway speeds, just like cruise control.

Ken


My bro-in-law has been in, or on the peripheral of, the auto-parts industry in the Grand Rapids area for his entire career. He told me recently the inside buzz is that the problem is a matter of two seperate computers not communicating with each other successfully. The floormats and the pedal shims are stalls/PR moves while they try to figure out the real solution.

While I'm not sure I believe it, it does come from a fairly credible source...

[silverghost]

If I owned one of these cars I would want a NEW gas pedal assembly and not a 25 cent shim !
Toyota is trying to pinch a penny on the repairs!

I still suspect that this problem is a FI engine computer or firmware issue & not a stuck gas pedal !

In a "Fly By Wire" engine control system like this there should be some connection to the brake pedal switch as a safety backup to tell the computer to slow the car if brake pressure is applied for a period of time.
Cruise control systems have had several back-up dis-connect systems connected to the brake pedals for decades !

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Tom, your governor is at 96 mph...


Dang Jim, why ya always gotta hold a brutha down??? LOL

Tony, I think I'm pickin' up what your bro-in-law is layin' down. I have also heard this from a couple of other sources and sounds like it makes the most sense.

[Ghost]

ANYTHING can be in software. While lots can go wrong with mechanical controls, my experience is that software people face incredible test challenges with combinations of logic and state/conditions, and generally don't think they need to test as much as they should. Both mechanical systems and software systems re-use components in newer designs. But a great deal of the interactions of the components are pretty intuitive in mechanical systems. In software, there may be lots of old holes that never mattered because of other logic, essentially hidden bombs waiting to go off. When combined with new code, the resulting malfunctions can be *very* unpredictable. A LOT of testing is needed to really be safe.


EDIT:

An old joke illustrates the complexity problem.

The king wants a toaster. He summons an engineer and a computer scientist, and asked them how they might make one.

The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and quantizes its position to one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as the index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay, it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Wait 'til next week, and I'll show you a working prototype."

The computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few years.

"With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent solution to the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods. Specialize this class into subclasses: grains, pork, and poultry. The specialization process should be repeated with grains divided into toast, muffins, pancakes, and waffles; pork divided into sausage, links, and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled eggs, hard-boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various omelet classes.

"The ham-and-cheese omelet class is worth special attention because it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy, and poultry classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be properly solved without multiple inheritance. At run time, the program must create the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook yourself.' The semantics of this message depend, of course, on the kind of object, so they have a different meaning to a piece of toast than to scrambled eggs.

"Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis phase has revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any kind of breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered some derived requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want the eggs to get cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent processing is required, too.

"We must not forget the user interface. The lever that lowers the food lacks versatility, and the darkness knob is confusing. Would-be diners won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen. Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on the foods they want to cook.

"Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An Intel 80586 with 16MB of memory, a 1.2GB hard disk, and a SuperVGA monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking, object oriented language that supports multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a four-bit microcontroller)."

The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and the kingdom lived happily ever after.

[Walt. H.]

You're correct S.G.,
I heard this yesterday evening on the radio, a spokes person from Microsoft "I forget his name" said that he feels its a software problem not a hardware issue. Kinda makes makes more sense now in how this scenario could happen.
This is why I like old cable and linkage with a back-up toe-strap on the pedel, heck cable came in mid 60's over straight linkage rod and bellcrank for safety. If you broke a motor mount you wouldn't have to worry about the throttle sticking open cause it would not effect cable movement if the engine rocked up a few inches like it would with a steel linkage rod.. :yes:

Now its fly by wire processors $hit and someones microwave cell tower fed it a bad stray command and resulted in a family being killed.:frown:

[BUIZILLA]

Steve Jobs said he thought it was a software problem...

this coming from a guy, with a battery powered car, with cruise control..

now, think about that.... cruise control on a battery powered car... how's that gonna work again... if it doesn't work on a golf cart it ain't gonna work on your grocery getter either.. LOL

[zelatore]

Steve Jobs said he thought it was a software problem...

this coming from a guy, with a battery powered car, with cruise control..

now, think about that.... cruise control on a battery powered car... how's that gonna work again... if it doesn't work on a golf cart it ain't gonna work on your grocery getter either.. LOL

I heard that sound bite, but was it Jobs? I thought it was one of the other guys, but could be wrong.

Regardless, I remember him saying how he set the cruise on his Prius and it ran up to 100 mph and he was pretty scared until he got it shut down. My thought was this: Just how long does it take a Prius to reach 100 mph, and do you also get scared riding the kiddy-coaster at the theme park?

[Craig S]

i dont think the pcm would let the vehicle go 120 mph, i believe most cars are regulated bt the pcm so they cant go over 109 mph?

Althought my 4x4 cummins '6 Dodge has only been up to 110, I hear it shuts down at 116.

(My Rubicons would only go 96mph.)

fwiw I've got 20,000 miles on an '09 Yaris (their cheapest US product), and am very happy. It does what it suppose to do, and does it well.

[dr]

I’m a little dismayed at this problem given my experience…I’ve been a supplier to Toyota for years going back to when you had to go to Japan to bid business….before their first NA plant….

Back in the 70’s and 80’s there was a huge difference in the way the Japanese and US car companies did business… accordingly I’ve purchased nothing but Japanese cars since 1976….American Trucks until recently

I’m not as close to that now. I had a serious problem ironically enough dealing with braking….

Well and after the problem was contained and on the way to being resolved I had to go to Japan and explain the ‘corporate board’ in my best Fred Willard impersonation….. ‘What Happened?’

I found first and foremost they wanted a sincere apology…..and wanted me to be shamed…..both of which I was unable to pull off…..of course the repercussions, fiscal and otherwise came much later….

[FISHIN SUCKS]

I heard that sound bite, but was it Jobs? I thought it was one of the other guys, but could be wrong.

Regardless, I remember him saying how he set the cruise on his Prius and it ran up to 100 mph and he was pretty scared until he got it shut down. My thought was this: Just how long does it take a Prius to reach 100 mph, and do you also get scared riding the kiddy-coaster at the theme park?
LOL, kiddy coaster!!! That piece of schit was probably going down hill (and down wind).

It was Wozniak, not Jobs.