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gcarter
01-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Next thing up is locating the outer ends of the steering cylinders;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53444&stc=1&d=1264272497
While I think I understand the principles of outboard steering systems, I've not installed one.


Some observations;

The secondary (bottom) plate can be mounted below the bracket (as shown), or above. I just checked this and the secondary plate would interfere w/the shower if it were mounted on top.......
The horizontal 1" blue masking tape above the gimbal housing is there to measure from vertically .
The cylinders are 9" stroke and are positioned at half stroke (see tape on rods).
The existing outboard mounting pad marks on the tape on the transom are from an earlier (half hearted) attempt, and are meaningless.
My main question is;
Where do the outboard pad ends go in a vertical reference compared to the horizontal gimbal pivot point?:confused:
I really need this in additional thoughts on the subject.
Thanks in advance.

I wanna drill some holes, so answer quickly!:yes:

zelatore
01-23-2010, 01:40 PM
Don't know how much it will help you, but I scanned the install info from my Zieger system for you...

MOP
01-23-2010, 01:52 PM
The pads need to be on the same plane as where they attach to the drive or they can work against each other when raising the drive.

MOP
01-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Not sure but it looks as if you were about to mount them to high looking at your transom taping.

BUIZILLA
01-23-2010, 01:58 PM
what is the total ram throw?

gcarter
01-23-2010, 02:08 PM
Thanks Don.
It looks to me that on the Zeiger system the center of the outer horizontal pivot is on the driveshaft C/L.
I can certainly understand why it would be so important on such a close coupled system.
My outboard bracket ends are located an additional 5" further outboard.
I wonder how much leeway I have?????

fogducker III
01-23-2010, 02:10 PM
I seem to recall 1" above OR below from driveline horizontal....:wink:

gcarter
01-23-2010, 02:10 PM
what is the total ram throw?

If you're asking the stroke, it's 9".
The outer edge of the outboard bracket is approx. 17 5/16" from the edge of the gimbal housing.

BUIZILLA
01-23-2010, 02:12 PM
put the rams exactly mid stroke with all hardware attachments and the drive centered..

then see where the plates fall against the transom

gcarter
01-23-2010, 02:13 PM
The main issue I have is mounting the Hynautic Power Planes.....you can see the outline drawn on the transom. I've already planned on moving them inboard a bit. But I don't want to get into the stringer w/the mounting bolts.

fogducker III
01-23-2010, 02:14 PM
http://www.cpperformance.com/Instructions/Instruction-137-9204.pdf

Similar to above but a little more detail.

fogducker III
01-23-2010, 02:33 PM
I just have to run out and buy some stock in 3M tape.......:eek::yes:

MOP
01-23-2010, 02:37 PM
George looking at the type of ends you have I am pretty sure you can cant them to gain some clearance without having any issues with binding.

gcarter
01-23-2010, 03:11 PM
OK, more info.....

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53448&stc=1&d=1264281045

After carefully measuring, it seems the center of the inboard rod end is approximately 1" above the bell housing pivot pin center line.
I marked the approximate bell housing pivot centerline on the transom (look at the horizontal marks in the picture) and another horizontal line 1" above the pivot center line.
In this picture, you can see the outer brackets approximately centered on the line 1" above the pivot center line. They are also both in mid stroke.

I still have to make room for the tab brackets to fit outboard of the stringers.

One thing I could do would be to make some 1" SST spacers to help offset the cylinder outer brackets for tab bracket clearance.

gcarter
01-23-2010, 04:47 PM
Here's a picture of Catch22's steering (before shorty and blower).
This is a Marine Machine system w/what I guess are 9" stroke cylinders.
Notice the rod ends are located above the bracket. I suppose this is to give clearance for the K-Planes. Also notice that the bracket looks to be identical to mine.
The K-Planes are very similar to the size of the Hynautic Power Planes.

Anyone else have any pictures of similar setups?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53449&stc=1&d=1264286775

MOP
01-24-2010, 07:40 AM
George this may well call for a Presidential Solution!

BigGrizzly
01-24-2010, 10:53 AM
George, Mine are centered with the pivot but the 1" rule is safe. The problem is when they are too high and you bring the drive all the way up. Now the reasing for the center rule is to help support the Gimble housing, which this 1" rule works well. George I am going to have cancel our lunch date because I can't go the Miami show, I was looking forward to the lunch and viewing of your boat.

MOP
01-24-2010, 11:01 AM
See I told you George you have to do better than hot dogs & Fresca!

Ed Donnelly
01-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Hope this helps

gcarter
01-24-2010, 11:13 AM
George I am going to have cancel our lunch date because I can't go the Miami show, I was looking forward to the lunch and viewing of your boat.
Randy, I'm sorry to hear you're not going to make it! I too was looking forward to it.
Randy will tell you I took him to the finest dining that Leesburg and the Villages has!

gcarter
01-24-2010, 11:56 AM
OK, using the example of Catch's boat w/the long stroke Marine Machine system and the cylinders and secondary bracket mounted above the main bracket;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53449&stc=1&d=1264286775

I've duplicated the configuration.....while losing the EMI shower in the process! Oh darn!

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53455&stc=1&d=1264355561

The cylinders are located approximately 3" above the bell housing pivot point.
I don't believe it's an issue though.
Here's why;
If you look at this CP Performance site, thanks Fogducker, http://www.cpperformance.com/Instructions/Instruction-137-9204.pdf
at the example of the two cylinder, single engine schematic, you'll notice the outboard end of the port cylinder is hydraulically tied to the inboard end of the stbd cylinder, and vice versa. So as the drive is trimmed up, the two steering cylinders are self compensating as to volume.
In other words, if the drive is trimmed up, the distance between the inner and outer mounting points of the steering cylinders decreases and the pistons move in relation to the cylinders. The fluid displaced at the outer ends of the cylinders moves through the hydraulic tubing to the inboard end of the opposite cylinders, i.e., the fluid displaced by the outer end of the stbd steering cylinder is routed to the inner end of the port steering cylinder etc.
There probably an extra hydraulic load on the trim cylinders due to the movement of the fluid in the steering cylinders, but everything is new.
But the most importand thing is it gives me the room to mount the Hynautic Power Planes.

CHACHI
01-24-2010, 12:23 PM
George, with the cylinders mounted that far above the centerline of the gimble, is there "enough play" in the rod ends to allow enough "trim in" of the lower unit?

Ken

gcarter
01-24-2010, 12:51 PM
George, with the cylinders mounted that far above the centerline of the gimble, is there "enough play" in the rod ends to allow enough "trim in" of the lower unit?

Ken
That's a good question and I'll check it out before I drill any holes.
But Ken, at least when it's anywhere near straight, the cylinders are at mid stroke.

gcarter
01-24-2010, 12:59 PM
I finally got the tab mounting bracket positioned on the transom.....sort of.
I'll assure you that the inner lower mountig hole is at least 1" outboard of the stringer.
If this configuration works, it'll solve all my problems. In the following pictures you'll see the parts in place w/the drive straight, and at full lock.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53456&stc=1&d=1264359441

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53457&d=1264359441

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53458&stc=1&d=1264359432

Yes, I know the tabs won't be as effective located this far inboard, but then they're pretty big tabs.

mrfixxall
01-24-2010, 03:58 PM
A little heads up grorge, you dont want to mount the cylinders at the end of their srtoke whyle turning...you need a little cush at the end so the hydrolics dont bolw the ends off the rams with the pressure from bottoming them out..

just myo2 :)

gcarter
01-24-2010, 05:29 PM
A little heads up grorge, you dont want to mount the cylinders at the end of their srtoke whyle turning...you need a little cush at the end so the hydrolics dont bolw the ends off the rams with the pressure from bottoming them out..

just myo2 :)

Yep, I agree w/you

HallJ
01-25-2010, 12:31 PM
If you run the piston into the endcap and it pushes the end cap off of the cylinder, you've got something terribly wrong. How else are you going to limit the steering travel?

Jeff

gcarter
01-25-2010, 04:05 PM
I think what I meant is to try to limit the number of times that while turning, you hit the end of the stroke. Since the opposite ends of the cylinders are tied together, it cant build pressure on the caps the pistons are moving towards.
But it is important that the two cylinders are "timed" so that both rods reach the end of the stroke at the same time.

MOP
01-25-2010, 05:09 PM
George when you had the rams apart did the pistons have the ball check reliefs, trim cylinder piston have the, so you can't overload them in addition the pump has reliefs. I am pretty sure your system has some reliefs built in either the pistons or helm. You encounter some hydraulic bind with the 3" offset, either the trim rams will work like heck or the steering will unload the excess.

gcarter
01-25-2010, 06:07 PM
There is some self compensation due to the fact that the cylinders are cross connected, but there is some differential of volume in the cylinders. any excess oil volume will go back to the helm, the pump and relieve in the pump......I think.
But the good thing is there's not a lot of volume to be unloaded.

NJFASTECH
01-28-2010, 07:06 PM
Why don't you forge a new direction and go ITS or go to a shorter ram system to completely rule out any interference with the tabs.ITS would be really cool and make for an awsome set up.
Here is an observation from OSO classified of a shorter ram

gcarter
01-28-2010, 07:19 PM
Why don't you forge a new direction and go ITS or go to a shorter ram system to completely rule out any interference with the tabs.ITS would be really cool and make for an awsome set up.
Here is an observation from OSO classified of a shorter ram

That's a good question.
Two real good reasons though, not to.
1) For the last 18 months disposable funds have been almost non-existant for purchases. This resto is taking a long time becaused of it.
2) But the most important reason is this '88 model boat had these Hynautic steering cylinders, and the Hynautic Power Planes installed on the boat (but in an entirely different manner) in about '93.
In other words, they make the boat period correct and they cost only the price of rebuild kits.
But thanks for the suggestion.

NJFASTECH
01-29-2010, 05:37 AM
That's a good question.
Two real good reasons though, not to.
1) For the last 18 months disposable funds have been almost non-existant for purchases. This resto is taking a long time becaused of it.
2) But the most important reason is this '88 model boat had these Hynautic steering cylinders, and the Hynautic Power Planes installed on the boat (but in an entirely different manner) in about '93.
In other words, they make the boat period correct and they cost only the price of rebuild kits.
But thanks for the suggestion.

I am with ya on disposable income:yes: Were the hynautic a factory installed option? Or were they aftermarket add ons? You say added in 93?

VetteLT193
01-29-2010, 07:01 AM
Plus, those short rams have got to suck around the dock. Even the regular length Latham setup limits the steering a good bit. The setup on Eddie's boat is mounted roughly where the hoses are running into the setup above. Just outside of center-line of the exhaust tip. Those are well inside of center-line of the exhaust tips so the overall drive travel has to be greatly reduced.

The Hynautic rams have a cool look to them too :yes:

gcarter
01-29-2010, 01:10 PM
Were the hynautic a factory installed option? Or were they aftermarket add ons? You say added in 93?

This was the setup in the '80's and early '90's.
They were options on some boats of the period, but I don't know about Donzi.
When Morse-Teleflex bought out Hynautic, some of these things went away and the tabs actually were discontinued before the sale.
I suspect they were pretty expensive.

gcarter
01-29-2010, 06:37 PM
Plus, those short rams have got to suck around the dock. Even the regular length Latham setup limits the steering a good bit. The setup on Eddie's boat is mounted roughly where the hoses are running into the setup above. Just outside of center-line of the exhaust tip. Those are well inside of center-line of the exhaust tips so the overall drive travel has to be greatly reduced.

The Hynautic rams have a cool look to them too :yes:

I agree the short, close coupled rams don't have very good geometry and probably put a real strain on the transom, not to mention the lack of steering scope.
I also agree the Hynautic have a retro brutish look to them.
They are stout.

MOP
01-29-2010, 07:22 PM
Besides and our Southern brother would say "Just because it is old don't throw it away" we all know they don't build them like they used too!

gcarter
01-30-2010, 08:54 PM
Jeff Hall sent me some pics of some older boats w/some interesting examples of external steering.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53545&stc=1&d=1264906211

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53546&stc=1&d=1264906211

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53547&stc=1&d=1264906211

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53548&stc=1&d=1264906211

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53549&stc=1&d=1264906211

HallJ
01-30-2010, 10:37 PM
Here's one I did on a friends XK.
A bi directional relief is a good idea as well.

Jeff

gcarter
01-31-2010, 01:03 PM
I've had the gimbal assembly and upper on and off the transom several times lately, so I've left it bolted together.
It saves a lot of time, but it's pretty heavy, bulky, and not real easy to manipulate.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53564&stc=1&d=1264964375

I've continued to fool around w/positioning all these components on the transom, trying to come up w/the most optimal location for them.
Some things became very clear as to would not work, so I decided to first locate the steerinng cylinder outer ends first in the best possible position for them.
I made some templates out of a manila folder of both the cylinder outer bracket and the tab mounting plate/bracket.
So I first mounted the cylinder outer brackets. The templates are great because I was able to very accurately transfer the mounting hole center lines to the tape on the transom. If you look carefully on the tape,you can see the marked centerlines.
This was a little more involved than it would seem. After mounting the cylinder outer brackets, I located the tab template where I thought it should go. Once the template was taped into place, I held the actual tab bracket in place over the template. After moving the drive upper into all sorts of positions, I was able to fine tune the tab bracket positions to eliminate any sort of interference.
After marking the tab bracket mounting bolt center lines, I removed the outer cylinder outer brackets from the transom, and drilled the mounting bolt hole pilots.


http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53565&stc=1&d=1264964375

So after drilling the 14 holes in the transom for the tabs, I stuck some bolts in the tab brackets and bolted them onto the transom.......
So, what do you think?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53566&stc=1&d=1264964375

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53567&stc=1&d=1264964375

Planetwarmer
02-02-2010, 01:25 AM
Nice lookin hiney!

breeze400
02-07-2010, 10:04 AM
George, After looking through this post. Looking at all the pics of the older boats. Witch by the way some of the installs, the rams were deffinatlly higher than the centerline. What you ended up doing should work like A charm. :yes::yes::yes:. But I am concerned about th inward mounting of the tabs. Guess when you put her in the water, you will find out how well the tabs work. Sam.:cool!::cool!::cool!:

PS When you are at speed the tabs should be up anyway.