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silverghost
01-05-2010, 02:14 PM
Has anyone on this board ever "stuffed" their Donzi bow or any other boat bow badly ?
I would think a 16 or 18 might be fairly easy to "stuff" ?
How about swamping their boat by suffing the bow ?
Or sinking it this way ?

Each summer in very rough water, usually on some idiot's big Sport Fisherman's wake, I get 5-10 gallons of ocean water over the bow of my 24' American Skier Super Eagle Skiboat.. It is a bowrider .
This summer had a 10-15 gallon boat-wake wave go over my bow and run down the center isle to the motorbox.
This year I was hit by a wake so badly that my automatic bilge pump went on, and ran for two min !
This ski-boat has full floatation foam from bow to stern on each outboard side of the stringers.
I chased this idiot down
in his Big 45' Egg Harbor and chewed him out in front of his passengrs !
I boat 90% of the time in Ocean City's Great Egg Harbor Bay & Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Atlantic City NJ.
Each year it is getting much worse dealing with the "More Money Than Brains Crowd" and their big wakes.
I have been boating there for 45+ years.
I am now wonderig if I should foam-in my "Benchseat" 18 project from the bow back to the engine bulkhead on the outboard sides of it's stringers?
I see most here do not do so while restoring their older boats. Only foam-in new gas tanks.
Foam is fairly cheep.
In fact there is a guy in the area with a foam insulation truck that will spray-in Urethane insulation foam of various density.
But the downside is the fact that foam absorbs water.
What Does Donzi do today as far as foam floatation?
Will the current production Donzi 16 & 18 sink if badly swamped?

jg480
01-05-2010, 04:11 PM
I've stuffed my 18' twice, Once idling out from the boat launch into deep water. No big deal but the second time I was running about 25 mph through a 4-5' following sea. Most of the water cleared the cockpit but I got soaked! I was bringing the boat home from the cottage in late October. Made for a chilly ride.
Jim

Tony
01-05-2010, 04:38 PM
I took an awesome shot of Randy Oak (Ranman) stuffing his 18 on Lake St. Clair. The pic makes the boat look very small (well, yeah, since about half of it is underwater) and makes Randy look like King Neptune or something...enhanced by the fact that he is already about 7' tall. It's a pretty cool shot but I'd have to hunt to find it.

I would stuff my old Ski Sporter coming out of the Grand Haven or Muskegon channels, on days when Lake Michigan was "angry"...kind of a controlled on-purpose slow speed stuff. The cool factor was very high, and there were no wetness worries because of the factory windshield.

Another time I circled Randy Bell off the Frankfort shoreline with my 22' for some action shots, and MY wake swamped him and his pansy windshield. About a ton of water dumped right into his wife's lap. She was a great sport about it, though, and even kept MY camera dry for me!

:beer:

RPD
01-05-2010, 04:49 PM
I have a '76 16 OB .... I have stuffed it once coming across the bay, lots of water in the cockpit (I don't have a windshield) and broke a speedo bracket on the bow .... other than that, yes, big boat wakes will sometime bring water over the bow (normall only after the Blue Angels show) but I'm usually going slow for them so I don't consider that stuffing .... as for foam, you should be able to get some closed cell foam that won't soak up water ....

fogducker III
01-05-2010, 06:06 PM
If you haven't "buried" the bow, you haven't run the boat....:boat:

I have found, from my first experience in the 18, it is easy to do if you are not watching the water and don't know the querks of the boat......after that, you get to realize these are VERY forgiving boats...

Just make sure the bilge pump works and you have something dry to put on...:kyle:

zelatore
01-05-2010, 06:35 PM
I did it first time out in my 'new to me' 22 a few years ago. It was a nasty day, but I had a new toy and couldn't wait to play with it. Cracked the windshield and had to replace it. Now, having put in more seat time, I could run in the same conditions and keep the bow out of the water. But that first time out I was trying to take it easy and lifted when I could have just carried more power/speed and gone from wave top to wave top. You live, you learn.

Just curious as I don't know Egg Harbor at all, but was the big sport fisherman (from the first post) running in a no wake zone? Or was he on the open water? Delivering yachts I've put in plenty of time running big boats, and I have to say if I'm out on the bay in open water I'm not going to slow to a stop just because you're coming at me in a small boat. If I'm in the delta running in a small restricted channel that's another story. Although I'm pretty sure I could make a good case against some of the fishermen who anchor or troll in the main shipping channel. I slow down for them when running a large boat lest I sink them, but they sure are annoying as hell and they seem to think they own the place. :nilly:

NJFASTECH
01-05-2010, 07:56 PM
I have stuffed my corsa in Pt Pleasant to the rub rail in race condition 6 to 8 foot seas busted all the bulkheads out and the nose was fractured In OPA race spun the serp belt and got a 2 hour tow boat ride home at the tune of 375.00 lead shot ballast ate the bildge pump so manual pump for 2 hours to keep it a float. Worst part ego Rookie race 3/4 lap out front and lost the belt I would have put it on the beach if I could have finished And that is pushed to near 80. Stuffing comes down to reading error nearly stuffed my 35 fastech in barnagat inlet and chesapeake during a poker run after trippng on a swell. The classics need to know the limits as you can not always carry the sets. That is a very dangerous situation not to be taken lightly.When you see the water at the rub rail at 80 mph your azz may eat your shorts!

The Hedgehog
01-05-2010, 07:58 PM
I did it first time out in my 'new to me' 22 a few years ago. It was a nasty day, but I had a new toy and couldn't wait to play with it. Cracked the windshield and had to replace it. Now, having put in more seat time, I could run in the same conditions and keep the bow out of the water. But that first time out I was trying to take it easy and lifted when I could have just carried more power/speed and gone from wave top to wave top. You live, you learn.

Just curious as I don't know Egg Harbor at all, but was the big sport fisherman (from the first post) running in a no wake zone? Or was he on the open water? Delivering yachts I've put in plenty of time running big boats, and I have to say if I'm out on the bay in open water I'm not going to slow to a stop just because you're coming at me in a small boat. If I'm in the delta running in a small restricted channel that's another story. Although I'm pretty sure I could make a good case against some of the fishermen who anchor or troll in the main shipping channel. I slow down for them when running a large boat lest I sink them, but they sure are annoying as hell and they seem to think they own the place. :nilly:

The Egg Harbor is a nice looking sport fisher.

I know what you mean about the no wake thing in the big boat. Some guys are just A$$holes and they probably give us a bad name. I try to be kind to the small guys but if I came down from plane for every bass fisherman in the big ole Tn river system, well....As a rule I do pretty much the same as you in the small and more congested areas. I am responsible for my wake and don't want to jar anyone. That being said, I have been flicked off by more than one small boater. It is usually someone that is running at 45 mph in open water and does not have to run into the steep part of my wake to get pounded out in the middle of something like Lake Guntersville when I am running a whopping 14 knots. They usually don't know how to cross a wake either.

When in big performance boats the story is different. We can run from Nickajack dam to Chattanooga in a 26-42 footer. Folks on their pier get all sorts of pissed when we come running by toting a 6" wake. For some reason they are just fine with it when some clown in a Chapparell comes by half planed plowing a 2 foot wake. Ok, so there is a good 37 miles of water with hundreds of docks and I am supposed to drop down from 70 or so to 5 mph at each dock. I don't see the bass boats that have the same wake doing that. I guess that it is all a matter of perception.

NJFASTECH
01-05-2010, 08:10 PM
BTW if it crest at 80 that will rip you out of the cock pit, better be wearing your lanyard and a vest:wink: cause now it is a submarine!:shocking:google it on you tube it ain't no joke!
Be safe, Jim

Donzi Vol
01-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Yep. Been there, done that. It's like slow motion to see the ripple of water run down the bow toward you. It's fun the first couple times. As long as the second time somebody new gets wet, that is! After that, you learn the water in relativity to the boat, and vice versa.

As for foam, I haven't the slightest...

dclassic
01-05-2010, 09:36 PM
You did great taking this one. Figured I'd save you the time of looking.

gold-n-rod
01-05-2010, 10:06 PM
Another time I circled Randy Bell off the Frankfort shoreline with my 22' for some action shots, and MY wake swamped him and his pansy windshield. About a ton of water dumped right into his wife's lap. She was a great sport about it, though, and even kept MY camera dry for me!
I remember it like it was yesterday. Here you were...... pre-swamping!
http://denalitrucks.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/Tony_s_summer__07_Donzi_album_407.jpg

gold-n-rod
01-05-2010, 10:07 PM
You did great taking this one. Figured I'd save you the time of looking.

A balls out moment and a fine bit of photography, Tony!

Tony
01-05-2010, 10:14 PM
dclassic, thanks for finding that pic. You sometimes take about 100 shots that are crap but it only takes one like that to make it worthwhile.

Randy, that was sure a memorable outing. Some of my best pics were taken that day, many of them by Sheila. Another thing that made that day great was that I didn't need a tow!

:beer:

VetteLT193
01-06-2010, 07:01 AM
....

Just curious as I don't know Egg Harbor at all, but was the big sport fisherman (from the first post) running in a no wake zone? Or was he on the open water? Delivering yachts I've put in plenty of time running big boats, and I have to say if I'm out on the bay in open water I'm not going to slow to a stop just because you're coming at me in a small boat. If I'm in the delta running in a small restricted channel that's another story. Although I'm pretty sure I could make a good case against some of the fishermen who anchor or troll in the main shipping channel. I slow down for them when running a large boat lest I sink them, but they sure are annoying as hell and they seem to think they own the place. :nilly:


I'm curious too... big boat running in a no wake zone, or just running legally? Unfortunately the big guys can't slow down for everyone:lifeprese:

zelatore
01-06-2010, 10:03 AM
You did great taking this one. Figured I'd save you the time of looking.

Well it's clear what the problem here is. Anybody who rides or does track days knows the first thing they teach you is 'look where you want to go'.

And he's looking down....:wink:

zelatore
01-06-2010, 10:15 AM
When in big performance boats the story is different. We can run from Nickajack dam to Chattanooga in a 26-42 footer. Folks on their pier get all sorts of pissed when we come running by toting a 6" wake. For some reason they are just fine with it when some clown in a Chapparell comes by half planed plowing a 2 foot wake. Ok, so there is a good 37 miles of water with hundreds of docks and I am supposed to drop down from 70 or so to 5 mph at each dock. I don't see the bass boats that have the same wake doing that. I guess that it is all a matter of perception.

I know that feeling! Some moron comes by plowing a huge hole in the water with his little 18-25' boat at about 10 mph and nobody seems to mind. You go by on plane with a tiny wake but going 40+ mph and they scream like you've just propositioned their 6 year old kid.

My favorite was a small marina in my hometown on the delta. I came past in a 10' inflatable on plane. Probably leaves all of 5" of wake, but I was running around 15 mph. Some old hag on a crappy houseboat that clearly hasn't left the dock in 10 years starts waving her arms and yelling. I couldn't figure out what she was on about so I turned and ran over to her where she started in about No Wake! I'm going to call the sheriff! I told to please do, and while she was at it ask him to check the safety gear on here (barely) floating derelict barge because if the 4" of wake from my 100 lb inflatable are a hazard to you, you've got bigger problems.

Obviously, my wake wasn't the issue. There would be bigger waves from a stiff breeze. But I was going 'fast' in her little neighborhood and she was the self-appointed marina cop.

Man I hate those people.

BigGrizzly
01-06-2010, 10:16 AM
most of the Egg harbor are Barnigate are 36 footers Some guys have brains some don't. Living there for 35 years and driving a 16 and 18 around there, before moving, If he is in the channel and it is not a slow speed wake zone, he can actually do what he wants and since you have the more maneuverable boat you need to be a where of everything around you. The only tine I stuffed my 16 was in the Manisquan before they made a slow speed wake zone, and it was MY fault. I stuffed under the first bridg before the new one was put up. This is not to saw you were wrong, but every boat does not have to slow up for you. If that Egg had slowed up in a hurry he would have flipped you(seen it happen). I don't know if you were even moving or how fast you were going, but if you were idling in the channel that is not good in a deep V hull with big water. this is just a note to keep you alive. I have owned Donzis since 1966 and have well over 10,000 hours in them and I still don't know all the answers except expect the unexpected, because it will happen!!! SORRY that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but one yelling match won't change anybody, even that guy. In ten minutes your conversation does not exist to him, or anybody else on that boat.

MDonziM
01-06-2010, 10:55 AM
Wasnt really a stuff but years ago, coming out lighthouse pt inlet in pompano fl. in my 16 to see what the ocean looked like, was met by tightly stacked 8 footers.(outgoing tide/onshore wind) One rolled right over the boat, completely swamping the cockpit. Found religion quick, did a 180 on the face of the next wave and made it back in. Pretty hairy...

When I put a blackhawk on my 22 the attitude and response of the boat changed a lot. Coming from behind a 45' cruiser, cut across a 5ft wake at only 30-35 mph but with less bowlift, my rubrail at the bow was deflecting water on re-entry.

silverghost
01-06-2010, 11:14 AM
This was a No Wake Zone !
In fact he had just passed a state white No Wake plastic can that was clearly marked; so he could not miss it.
We were in the Intercostal behind the 18th street lagoon area of Ocean City.
The thing that really angered me was the fact that my Dad who was then 91 y/o was on board my boat and was slammed-around along with me.
You don't slam a 91 y/o around !
This guy had a brand new boat.
I later talked to his neighbor who also has a lagoon-front home next to this guy.
The neighbor told me that the Egg Harbor owner had just bought the house and movedhis boat in.
The neighbor has three boat slips; and usually rents two of the three out and keeps the third for himself.
When his neighbor moved in he came over introduced himself and told the young fellow:
"I have a new expensive boat and I don't want you renting out that slip next to my boat. If your slip renter hits my boat while docking I will sue YOU !"
"I'm a lawyer !"
He did not offer to pick-up the rent.
He also pulled-out the old common piles next to the neighbor and put in new bigger piles. spaced out longer for his bigger boat. He then made the statement. "Those are my new pilings~Not YOURS. I don't want you or your renters tieing onto or drilling into them !"
The young fellow was so intimadated that he told his renter that he could not offer him the slip that year. He lost $1500. slip rent last year!
I drove over there to confront this idiot~ But he had already gone home to Philadelphia.
I talked to his son and chewed his father out!
That's when I talked to his young nieghbor.
This is the kind of self-centered bully we were dealing with !
If I was his slip neighbor I'd set him straight on that issue too!
A week later his son & wife came up to our boat while drift fishing for flounder. They appoligised for the father's boat driving. I have yet to hear from this idiot "Lawyer".
.

Conquistador_del_mar
01-06-2010, 11:29 AM
Wasnt really a stuff but years ago, coming out lighthouse pt inlet in pompano fl. in my 16 to see what the ocean looked like, was met by tightly stacked 8 footers.(outgoing tide/onshore wind) One rolled right over the boat, completely swamping the cockpit. Found religion quick, did a 180 on the face of the next wave and made it back in. Pretty hairy...

In the 70s, I did the same thing coming out of Miami (government cut if I remember the name correctly). A high roller came over the deck of my 1971 18' Donzi and put about 4" of water in the cockpit when we were only at about 1500RPM trying to keep the bow up. We turned back into the safety of the intercoastal after that. I have never actually stuffed a boat unless that incident counts. Bill

VetteLT193
01-06-2010, 11:53 AM
This was a No Wake Zone !
In fact he had just passed a state white No Wake plastic can that was clearly marked; so he could not miss it.
We were in the Intercostal behind the 18th street lagoon area of Ocean City.
The thing that really angered me was the fact that my Dad who was then 91 y/o was on board my boat and was slammed-around along with me.
You don't slam a 91 y/o around !
This guy had a brand new boat.
I later talked to his neighbor who also has a lagoon-front home next to this guy.
The neighbor told me that the Egg Harbor owner had just bought the house and movedhis boat in.
The neighbor has three boat slips; and usually rents two of the three out and keeps the third for himself.
When his neighbor moved in he came over introduced himself and told the young fellow:
"I have a new expensive boat and I don't want you renting out that slip next to my boat. If your slip renter hits my boat while docking I will sue YOU !"
"I'm a lawyer !"
He did not offer to pick-up the rent.
He also pulled-out the old common piles next to the neighbor and put in new bigger piles. spaced out longer for his bigger boat. He then made the statement. "Those are my new pilings~Not YOURS. I don't want you or your renters tieing onto or drilling into them !"
The young fellow was so intimadated that he told his renter that he could not offer him the slip that year. He lost $1500. slip rent last year!
I drove over there to confront this idiot~ But he had already gone home to Philadelphia.
I talked to his son and chewed his father out!
That's when I talked to his young nieghbor.
This is the kind of self-centered bully we were dealing with !
If I was his slip neighbor I'd set him straight on that issue too!
A week later his son & wife came up to our boat while drift fishing for flounder. They appoligised for the father's boat driving. I have yet to hear from this idiot "Lawyer".
.

That just stinks. hopefully you can get the upper hand on the guy. ridiculous.

Walt. H.
01-07-2010, 12:09 AM
Sounds like that lawyer needs to have his bilge plug re-adjusted at about 2:am by a scuba commando on a rainy night.:blub:
They say justice is blind and no one seen anything! :jestera:

BigGrizzly
01-07-2010, 09:33 AM
Now I have the full story, AND you did what I would have and have done, the only difference is one of the marine police is a friend of mine and happened to be around and he helped me out. Come to think of it that was an Egg or a Pacemaker.

Ranman
01-07-2010, 11:02 AM
That's a great photo Tony. THat boat looks like a go-kart with me behind the wheel :shades:

For fun, here's an anti-stuffing shot of the same boat.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31822&d=1190664646

Barry Eller
01-07-2010, 12:09 PM
I haven't stuffed my 22, but I stuffed my 16' Tahiti several times.
Here is a video of a stuffing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw2zB7ElwRs&feature=related

Dr. David Fleming
01-09-2010, 09:47 AM
I grew up on the Detroit river watching the lake freighters swamp the local pleasure boats. Some really threw the water and put fear into boaters. Some of the most famous were the "Bob Lo" amusement park steamers.

Actually, one of the greatest small boats in the open ocean was the New England whaleboat like those used by Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. Sort of a "Deadliest Catch" of the 19th Century - men risked their lives in all weather in on the sea - and these 22 foot boats with no bilge pumps - they had "sea keeping" ability to ride out the waves with bows high.

Just read "Halseys Typhoon" a book which recorded the naval loss of Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts to waves in the Pacific Ocean in WW II most of these losses were atributable to errors of the Captains comanding the ships refusing to head into the waves - the destroyers that kept on assigned course rolled and were lost at sea - the move Cain Mutiny with Humphry Bogart records the Hollywood version of the event.

Generally on the Great Lakes you are not suposed to be out in swells greater than the length of your boat - 16 foot swells have a bigger than 16 foot boat. General rule is slow down, get the bow high as possible and take the wave. Let the designed "sea keeping" quality of the hull ride out the waves or wake. Hope to god that these aren't rollers and will flip the boat over backwards as with some Tusnami.

"Stuffing" as I understand it is running at high speed leaping from wave to wave as in off-shore racing. If you trip the hull the bow goes down at speed right into the next wave and the boat becomes a submarine. All of the energy of the hull, this is the weight of the boat times the speed is suddenly stopped by immovable force - Newtons law F=MxA - the strain on the hull is tremendous and breaks the boat. Some nice pics of this on U-tube.

You Classic guys need to appreciate the ZX/ZR for what they are, an off-shore hull that handles the waves and wakes - look at the video clip on this cite about the "classics racing the ZX" and which boat is clowning around doing the stunts -

Yah - and there is more to performance than speed. There are boats and then there are Donzi!

The Hedgehog
01-09-2010, 10:12 AM
That is a horrible story. Folks like that should not be allowed to even own a boat.

Sounds like the guy is a real piece of work. I would have been waiting on him at the dock.

What goes around comes around for folks like that.

BUIZILLA
01-09-2010, 10:56 AM
Generally on the Great Lakes you are not suposed to be out in swells greater than the length of your boat - 16 foot swells have a bigger than 16 foot boat.
You Classic guys need to appreciate the ZX/ZR for what they are, an off-shore hull that handles the waves and wakes - look at the video clip on this cite about the "classics racing the ZX" and which boat is clowning around doing the stunts - I think your crazy.. :pimp: are you really going to take your 22' boat out on 22' swells? do you have ANY idea what kind of water that is? :nilly: clearly, you've NEVER been in BIG water.. :shades:

standard SMART rule of thumb down here is >> wave height no more than the beam of the vessel your in... and that's assuming you've got freeboard equal to 1/3 the beam... otherwise you in deep doo-doo..

Barry Eller
01-09-2010, 11:10 AM
I think your crazy.. :pimp: are you really going to take your 22' boat out on 22' swells? do you have ANY idea what kind of water that is? :nilly: clearly, you've NEVER been in BIG water.. :shades:

standard SMART rule of thumb down here is >> wave height no more than the beam of the vessel your in... and that's assuming you've got freeboard equal to 1/3 the beam... otherwise you in deep doo-doo..

LMAO!!! I don't go out if its more that 2' in Pensacola Bay because the waves are too close together.

The Hedgehog
01-09-2010, 03:23 PM
I think your crazy.. :pimp: are you really going to take your 22' boat out on 22' swells? do you have ANY idea what kind of water that is? :nilly: clearly, you've NEVER been in BIG water.. :shades:

standard SMART rule of thumb down here is >> wave height no more than the beam of the vessel your in... and that's assuming you've got freeboard equal to 1/3 the beam... otherwise you in deep doo-doo..

I have been telling Tex that the length vs swell height is a good rule of thumb. That way we can do the crossing in his Pacemaker in anything up to 48' swells. :nilly: Come on Jim, ride with us!:shocking:

gcarter
01-09-2010, 03:42 PM
Many of us have crossed Tampa Bay attending one of the wonderful Homecoming events Mike used ot put on.....One of those occasions was the only time I took a wave over the bow of the Minx. It was right at the mouth of the ship channel and the Gulf. I was glad for the extra freeboard of the Minx. Just enough forward motion to keep the bow up.

Another thing Elaine and I enjoyed doing was to put in at Ormond Beach and take the water way up to San Augustine for lunch. It's about 45 miles each way and a great trip.
In the fall, when all the large yachts are moving south, they invariably bunch up in groups of 3-6 and move along at about 8-12 knots leaving huge wakes which rebound off both shores.........it turns into a real guessing game trying to guess the best route through the maze.

BigGrizzly
01-10-2010, 10:18 AM
Dr. Flemming, unless you have driven both styles of the same size as I have, I am against that statement of zx/zf. Since I have done so on the same water the same day within about ten minutes apart then switching back again. The flaw in the statement is most of the zx and zf s are larger. Driver plays a good amount of the handling of the boat as does wind and direction of rogue waves. Buiz is closer to reality. However even when it is that big I stay home.

Sweet Cheekz
01-10-2010, 10:49 AM
[quote=Dr. David Fleming;552872]Generally on the Great Lakes you are not suposed to be out in swells greater than the length of your boat - 16 foot swells have a bigger than 16 foot boat.
quote]

Dr
Not to question your source but there is not an offshore boat of any size on the great lakes that wouldn't be history in 16 foot waves on Lake Michigan even if you could get out the channel, which you couldn't. A 16 foot wave on Lake Michigan would break completely over a 47 Apache. These waves are not the ocean. Anything over 5 foot waves here is big problems in any classic and anything over 8-10 feet is a big no go for any offshore boat regardless of size.
Parnell

zelatore
01-10-2010, 05:10 PM
I think your crazy.. :pimp: are you really going to take your 22' boat out on 22' swells? do you have ANY idea what kind of water that is? :nilly: clearly, you've NEVER been in BIG water.. :shades:



yup.

CHACHI
01-10-2010, 06:33 PM
I have been out in 2 meter waves (so said the bouy), in Lake Ontario on a 10 foot watercraft. I WOULD NEVER GO OUT IN MY 22 CLASSIC IN THAT KIND OF SURF. I would have to be crazy.

Ken

Dr. David Fleming
01-10-2010, 10:48 PM
I think we are discussing two different things here. "Swell" is the distance between wave crests. "Wave height" is the height of the wave and the trough. The US Navy "Blue Jacket Manuel" discribes ways of discussing waves. In the past Marine forcast generally in Michigan give swells. A twenty foot boat would crest two waves in a twenty foot swell. When swells are larger than this, the hull can lift the prop and rudder out of the water and the boat is on the verge of being out of control. The general rule is the boat has to be longer than the swell.

Naval rule is generally againsts landing small boats in a surf because the wave height rises as the water shallows and the boat can be flipped end over end in surf. Get the Blue Jacket Manuel and read up on small boat handling from the folks who do it professionally for a living.

There are some awsome videos of Coast Guard Rescue hulls fliped end over end in extreme wave height conditions. There is no subsititue for knowing your hull and what water it is safe in.

BUIZILLA
01-11-2010, 06:19 AM
Get the Blue Jacket Manuel and read up on small boat handling from the folks who do it professionally for a living.
you gotta be serious.... :nilly:

Cuda
01-11-2010, 07:31 AM
There are a ton of big cruisers running the ICW at Daytona. It was the same way in the ICW in St Pete. The rougher it is running on the outside, the worse the big cruisers are in the ICW. I've never stuffed a boat, or ridden in one that stuffed. I learned my lesson at 16 years old, when I thought a freighter was going to swamp my dad's 19 footer. I was about two miles away from it. I couldn't tell how big the wake was until it hit shallower water. I did break the cabin door off my Formula 242 going over the wake of a cruiser. Passing a cruiser in close quarters is a skill unto itself. Getting to the top of the wake, and knowing when to accelerate to keep steerage is a skill you can't learn in a book.

I don't know that foam will make too much difference in the floatation off a boat. If you put water where the foam is, is it really going to make that much difference?

I talked to a guy in St Pete that stuffed a 38 Formula at Pass-A-Grill Pass. He said it knocked him out, broke his windsheild, and knocked around the passengers in his boat. He said it was lucky it was cool outside and they had windbreakers on, or they would have gotten cut up.

Just remember, Mother Nature ain't no lady.

VetteLT193
01-11-2010, 07:57 AM
From Destin... sorry about the annoying chick, I couldn't find the raw video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJpFhGreXM

gcarter
01-11-2010, 08:12 AM
From Destin... sorry about the annoying chick, I couldn't find the raw video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJpFhGreXM

Interesting video.
I wonder if they had an accelerorometer on board if it would have hit 20 G's.......

Ouch!

VetteLT193
01-11-2010, 09:01 AM
Interesting video.
I wonder if they had an accelerorometer on board if it would have hit 20 G's.......

Ouch!

The original video format was so much better and clearer...

After it comes out of the wave the passenger side window glass is gone. literally gone. The windshield frame is bent to hell. I don't know if the passenger hit it or it was just a combo of boat flex and water rushing into it but either way it's not good.

gcarter
01-11-2010, 11:49 AM
If you watch carefully, it seems one of the passangers is airborn at one point.

zelatore
01-11-2010, 12:03 PM
I didn't check the original footage, but the posted link didn't even look like that bad a hit over all. Obviously, it was pretty harsh judging from the broken pelvis - My mother did that in a motorcycle accident a few years ago; took a looong time to heal, I wouldn't want to wish that on anybody.

The fact they weren't going all that fast (a little over 70 they said?) should be a good precautionary tail for any of us...there are plenty of boats on this site that run those speeds or more.

(granted, I don't think I've ever hit that sort of speed in water that confused and don't want to try!)

zelatore
01-11-2010, 12:06 PM
you gotta be serious.... :nilly:

I'll say it again.

Yup.

Funny thing about swells, if I look at any weather buoy info the swell is measured in xxx feet at yyy seconds. If they only give one number, such as '20 feet', they are refering to the height.

Please show me where wave period is measured in feet. I don't seem to recall seeing that anywhere.

For that matter, I would think wind waves would be the bigger threat on the great lakes, much like they are on SF bay. Swell is usually easy(er) to deal with, but short, steep wind waves on top of a swell can be a real killer.

Sweet Cheekz
01-11-2010, 12:10 PM
And he cuts off another boat and he's trimmed out too far and ect ect Complete poker run tool. 3 months of no weight on your legs is harsh. Glad it wasn't worse.

Dr
I agree two different things but NOAH forecasts wave heights in the Great Lakes. No one here ever talks about swells cause we don't have them like the ocean and there is not a big navy precense in Lake Michigan. A 20 foot wave in Lake Michigan is straight up, breaking and deadly in any pleasure craft.

Parnell

BUIZILLA
01-11-2010, 12:38 PM
there is not a big navy precense in Lake Michigan. :rolleyes: :biggrin.: :rlol:

Dr. David Fleming
01-11-2010, 02:00 PM
I think they tried to explode a comerical jet flying into Detroit at Christmas. A very large airforce base, Selfridge, is located on the shore of Lake ST. Clair, home to Marine, Airforce, Naval, Coast Guard units formerly was SAC base for nuclear weapons etc, may still have them.

I have regularly seen the US Navy on the Great Lakes. In WW II they had an aircraft carrier to teach naval pilots at the Great Lakes Navy Training Center - George Bush Sr. trained as a pilot on Lake Michigan. This lake has one of the largest salvagable supply of wrecked WW II combat aircraft on the bottom of the lake. Canadian Navy also patrols the Great Lakes, I recall seeing a destroyer docked in Windsor last summer. THis year both navys were patroling the Detroit River and Lake St. Clair, the US Navy every day or so. US Navy ships and Coast Guard ships are regularly docked in both the St. Clair and Detroit River.

I always try not to pace them or even run in the channel with them, and give them a wide birth as there are Home Land Security rules about approaching any ship on Lake St. Clair and the Detroit River. Within 100 foot is considered threatening. Casual passing in transit is the only safe approach.

Rules are continuing to change and the river bank is barb wire protected and limited to civilians at 50 to 100 feet except where park lands have prohibited them from restricting public access. Any boater stopped on the river is considered by law a "Captain at sea" and accorded these privlidges. Usual inspection stops by the Sherif, or Coast Guard include under the guise of "inspection for safety" a seeking of contriband and or terrorist devices. Authorization for 50 cal. live fire range on Lake ST. Clair was reciently given. Fire arms are prohibited and flare pistols can be confiscated by Canadian authorities which prohibits ownership of all firearms. IF you anchor in Canadian water you must declare yourself upon re entry into the USA pending confiscation of your boat and legal problems. Entry must be made at a nautical imigrations station or you must have NEXUS identification for all members on the boat. Most restaurants and marinas in Canada that relied upon American traffic are out of business. I regularly attend the Detroit Boat show to talk to the Homeland SEcurity, Coast Guard and Canadian Coast Guard every year just to get up on the rule changes. The Detroit Area is one of the most common access points for illegal entry into the USA and has the larges Arabic population in the USA.

I will admit that being 60 years old I have heard more marine broadcast than a lot of folks. Swell size was more common in the past and wave height more used now. This is of course because Detroit was filled with Navy veterans from WW II who used the marina services and boating on the Great Lakes as their playground. My yacht Club, Bay View included membership that was and still is regularly part of the Naval Reserve. Of course now days most boaters are part of the "baby boom reserve." THe same seamanship rules apply no matter what sea or generation you are in and DAvy JOnes is the happy hunting ground of those who don't know them. Lets get our sxxx together!

Cuda
01-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Many of us have crossed Tampa Bay attending one of the wonderful Homecoming events Mike used ot put on.....One of those occasions was the only time I took a wave over the bow of the Minx. It was right at the mouth of the ship channel and the Gulf. I was glad for the extra freeboard of the Minx. Just enough forward motion to keep the bow up.

Another thing Elaine and I enjoyed doing was to put in at Ormond Beach and take the water way up to San Augustine for lunch. It's about 45 miles each way and a great trip.
In the fall, when all the large yachts are moving south, they invariably bunch up in groups of 3-6 and move along at about 8-12 knots leaving huge wakes which rebound off both shores.........it turns into a real guessing game trying to guess the best route through the maze.
The most scared I've ever been in a boat was in Tampa Bay, right under the Skyway in a 23 foot John Almand. I've been across the bay many times, and often it's not for the weak of heart. As I grew older, I grew smarter, and just didn't challenge that bay.

Cuda
01-11-2010, 02:04 PM
I think we are discussing two different things here. "Swell" is the distance between wave crests. "Wave height" is the height of the wave and the trough. The US Navy "Blue Jacket Manuel" discribes ways of discussing waves. In the past Marine forcast generally in Michigan give swells. A twenty foot boat would crest two waves in a twenty foot swell. When swells are larger than this, the hull can lift the prop and rudder out of the water and the boat is on the verge of being out of control. The general rule is the boat has to be longer than the swell.

Naval rule is generally againsts landing small boats in a surf because the wave height rises as the water shallows and the boat can be flipped end over end in surf. Get the Blue Jacket Manuel and read up on small boat handling from the folks who do it professionally for a living.

There are some awsome videos of Coast Guard Rescue hulls fliped end over end in extreme wave height conditions. There is no subsititue for knowing your hull and what water it is safe in.
I have my dad's copy of the Blue Jackets Manual. I use it mostly for learning how to tie knots.

mike o
01-11-2010, 02:06 PM
I have been out in 2 meter waves (so said the bouy), in Lake Ontario on a 10 foot watercraft. I WOULD NEVER GO OUT IN MY 22 CLASSIC IN THAT KIND OF SURF. I would have to be crazy.

KenOne and only one, following you.:yes: Got my 1000 Island freighter wake bounce back from the shore (where that come from) lesson.:kingme::kingme::kingme:

Cuda
01-11-2010, 02:07 PM
:rolleyes: :biggrin.: :rlol:
The Naval bootcamp is on the Great Lakes.

BUIZILLA
01-11-2010, 02:09 PM
any submarine sightings on the Great lakes?? :wink:

VetteLT193
01-11-2010, 02:26 PM
any submarine sightings on the Great lakes?? :wink:


http://glnmmorg000.web151.discountasp.net/Apps/DNN/mydnn/Portals/0/Images/SilverSides/Silversides%20At%20Dock%20-%20small.jpg

Dr. David Fleming
01-11-2010, 02:31 PM
I think Chicago has one of the surviving NAZI U-boats that was the first ship taken as a "prize of war" on the high seas by the US NAVY since 1812.

Detroit had a WW II diesel submarine as part of the Navy Reserve - used to be docked at the Naval Reserve Center in Detroit at the Bell Isle Bridge. Detroit also has a floating dry dock capable of lifting ships. The Detroit marine terminal and most of its facilities are being radically changed as the USA border changes. A great deal of ship construction has taken place in Detroit, lake freighters, military ships etc. as well as repair. I would say this is changing also.

Canada still does a lot of ship repair and construction on the Great Lakes.

Sweet Cheekz
01-11-2010, 03:58 PM
The sub pic is the Silversides docked in Muskegon. The U505 is the sub in the mueseum of Science and Industry in Chicago. The Glennview Naval Air Station north of Chicago is the naval training base for aircraft that is no longer operational. I was unaware of all the Naval activity in the Detroit area however there are no borders on our side so we do not see the navy on Lake Michigan
Its funny how times change because I remember in the fall of 1998 running along side a carrier after we sat in Port Everglades and watched it pull out. We had guys on the deck waving as we throttled past them heading into the gulf stream. I figure we would be shot now.
Parnell

CHACHI
01-11-2010, 04:34 PM
One and only one, following you.:yes: Got my 1000 Island freighter wake bounce back from the shore (where that come from) lesson.:kingme::kingme::kingme:

Mike, that wasn't a bad trip across 40 acres. :wink::wink::wink:


Those rogue ones do have a way of "sneeking up" don't they?

Ken

Dr. David Fleming
01-11-2010, 06:48 PM
Chicago, city of America's future - thats right boys and girls - they can't even rebuild the World Trade Center the way it was before in old New York. I counted 7 new skyscrapers in Chicago under construction last year!

Chicago the only city home to Al Capone and the Al Capone museum and the Biograph theater exactly the same as it was when they shot John Dillinger - yet they ban the ownership of firearms against the US Constitution. What a city!

Chicago, with Lake Michigan as a playground - they need a harbor!

Chicago, where you can play on the water without being watched by a US Government spy satalite. I am afraid to kiss my wife on the boat even at night because I know are watching me while they look for drug runners.

Chicago - the only city with a metro area encompassing four states - Illinois, Indiana, Wisconson and Michigan. That four state police forces, Chicago police, Gary police, Michigan City police, Waukeegan police, and the Federal Government covering all crimes of an interstate nature.

Chicago not with the largest Arab population like Detroit but with the largest Mexican.

Yah, Chicago!

Donzi Vol
01-11-2010, 09:42 PM
From Destin... sorry about the annoying chick, I couldn't find the raw video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJpFhGreXM

Does anybody know anything about the picture of a powerboat rammed into a pole that is in this clip? It's been around for a while, and looks pretty crazy. Mythbusters even did a segment on it, judging it a myth. They said it can't happen because of the curvature of the bow. I would agree and add on the rub rail as a reason.

Sorry, this is waaaaaaaay off topic, but I've wondered about it for a while.

Just Say N20
01-12-2010, 10:05 AM
http://glnmmorg000.web151.discountasp.net/Apps/DNN/mydnn/Portals/0/Images/SilverSides/Silversides%20At%20Dock%20-%20small.jpg


USS Silversides, in the channel to Lake Muskegon.

Nice picture, BTW.

We had a slip at Great Lakes Marina for years.

kcatucci
01-12-2010, 10:56 AM
I have never stuffed the Minx.

In 79/80 i had an 18' Starcraft. I used to take water over the bow all the time on purpose. The way the windshield was, the water came across the bow, up the windshield, over the front seat passengers and landed on those behind me. Of course I had to duck just a little. :biggrin.: It was always fun surprising a new passenger.