Raylar vs Whipple

[Titan]

Time to add some HP to my 496 Mag and looking for some opinions. Seems like I have been reading for weeks and having a hard time coming to a conclusion. Both kits seem to have their advantages/disadvantages but reliability relies on proper tuning, so I think air/fuel monitoring is a must on both kits. Will consider forged internals but both companies state if tuned correctly are not needed, maybe that can be next winters project after more hours. Will probably add a shorty at the same time as Carl seems to love his. Will save prop testing twice! Is there anyone out there that has tried either on a 22C ?

Thanks in advance for any input!

[gcarter]

I think Hotshot has a Raylar.

[VetteLT193]

I don't like the high boost on the whipple at low RPM.

Procharger makes a kit, but Jamie from Lakeside said they aren't too good these days at support. If it weren't for that fact it is the route I would personally go. If you want to deal with a few issues it's still the route I'd go for a great balance of speed Vs. reliability.

[BUIZILLA]

I don't like the high boost on the whipple at low RPM. why not??? it's doing EXACTLY what it's supposed to do

how many FACTORY pro-charger units have you seen versa wacky paddle FACTORY installations???

must be a logical reason why EVERYONE uses wacky paddles..

[undertaker]

Titan make sure you PM Hotshot (Mick) he has the raylar and will give you an honest opinion on his boat (he is a no bull crap guy), he has run his two seasons I believe, also Jaime @ Lakeside he did a whipple on his 26ZX with a 496 HO, he knows his stuff, and Buizilla is no light weight either, beat on these guys ears and you will learn a lot of good information, which will help in your decision making process:)


Now for my two cents.....if and when I go more HP, I am going to look at the Blue motors, I know a lot of guys running blue motors and have seen and ridden in there boats and IMO blue motors in our 22's are the ticket. I am seriously thinking shorty first (maybe in spring:):nilly:), then more HP in the future....good luck keep us posted on your decision....


Undertaker:pimp:

PS Some blue motor guys you can talk to are....Air22, Roadtrip, Dr. Dan, Carl C to name a few.....:kingme:

[Titan]

I decided against the pro-charger for a few reasons. One being I don't want to notch my stringer for clearance and two I've seen a few failures locally and it seems to come down to lack of fuel management precision.

Blue motor would be nice, but trying to stay away from spending the 20-30k, as well as the wiring and transom changes.

[undertaker]

There are some 500EFI blue motors out there for a lot less than 20-30K, 525 motors there are a few out there for under 20K....you are going to spend 10-12K on a whipple set up the right way for a 496....like I said talk to the guys that have already done it and you will be way ahead of the game IMO


Undertaker:pimp:

[The Hedgehog]

I would look closely at trying to find a 500 EFI. It won't have quite the smash of the 525 EFI but they go for a good bit cheaper.

In the end if you do a Raylar and go into the internals you will be within shooting distance of a 500 EFI conversion.

[LKSD]

I have done a lot of supercharging & other NA upgrades to engines for many years. Both kits (raylar & whipple) are good kits & will get you more power & speed. The whipple for the money will get you more speed & power. However tuning & set up is critical. I have did the whipple upgrade to my last personal boat & have done it on others as well. I also have a client that we set up with a whipple that has been running it for a while now with no bad feedback. He actually bought a shorty from me this fall as well. It adds a noticeable ammount of power. The important part is the set up & not being too greedy for boost on the 496. I ran mine for 3 seasons & when I parted ways the compresstion in the cylinders was as good as the day I installed it. I did however do some other enhancements to mine that I also offer..

If you are interested in either the whipple or raylar set up feel free to give me a ring, I can give you some rought pricing as well..

Also steering clear of the procharger on the 496 was probably a wise Idea. they can work, but by the time you go buy everything else you will need & spend the time in dialing it in to be reliable like the whipple, you could have just gotten the whipple & have been done.. Or have been close to getting the whipple anyway.. The prochargers stuff was IMO best suited to the 454/502 Mag mpi stuff & earlier mpi SBC merc stuff.. Before & after that there are better & other options IMO.. ;)

Jamie / Lakeside 570-639-2628

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[VetteLT193]

why not??? it's doing EXACTLY what it's supposed to do

how many FACTORY pro-charger units have you seen versa wacky paddle FACTORY installations???

must be a logical reason why EVERYONE uses wacky paddles..

The factory has to make engines for all boats not specific applications. If we were talking a cat hull that would be running into the triple digits you need the power down low to get moving in a reasonable amount of time. In that application I would prefer whipple (and as they say, you gotta pay to play... go into triple digits and it will cost you one way or another).

22 Classic? Does anyone have a problem with planing times and feel like they need more power down low? Even the fastest of 22's won't have planing problems that more power would solve.

If I were merc I would do what they are doing... the big boost down low will work in all applications at a cost of engine life (which they can further make money on with re manufacturing). If I were boosting up a 22C I'd do it with less boost down low because the big boost does hardly anything (if anything) for a 22C except reduce the life of the engine.

History also proves my point. Look at as many procharged 22's and compare them to as many whippled 22's and the life they live (or lived).

[LKSD]

Vette,

The boost coming on at lower rpm & staying in thru the rpm range would have more to do with drive life if one were not easy on the sticks at lower rpms. However on the 22 there is not a ton of weight in front of that drive anyway.. The boost alone wont kill the engine. Incorrect fuel & spark delivery & HEAT will do the deed.. The whipple kit with the ecm cal for that unit is more precise over any of the other kits that you can put on that particular engine..

Also the whipple has a valve to regulate boost on the engine, if it doesnt need it it wont use it. It also helps in efficency.

I dont know that I personally would crucify something based only on when the boost gets applied, I also wouldnt necessarily say that boost from idle up will kill an engine sooner either.. There are more variables to consider.. ;)

Jamie / Lakeside

.

[gcarter]

I know this isn't a marine engine and would require some modifications, but the "Standard" pump gas setup is 620 HP and they're available for $13,700.00 @ a dealer in PA.

https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/images//gmpp_images/12498827.jpg

[The Hedgehog]

I know this isn't a marine engine and would require some modifications, but the "Standard" pump gas setup is 620 HP and they're available for $13,700.00 @ a dealer in PA.

https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/images//gmpp_images/12498827.jpg

The ole gm crate. Nice motors.

You can get over $20k quick by the time you accessorize it and get it in the boat.

[gcarter]

The ole gm crate. Nice motors.

You can get over $20k quick by the time you accessorize it and get it in the boat.

Maybe so, but you'd still have a nice, simple, N.A. carbed engine.

[Titan]

I'm keeping all options open. The 500 would be cheaper but would have to add fresh water cooling as 99% of my boating is in the chuck. Haven't seen any out there, there is a 525 that isn't to badly priced as far as 525's go but still think I'm in for at least 28k by the time I get it to Canada and installed with the shorty. I guess I have to consider what I could get for the 496 but still wouldn't that # under 20k.

[MOP]

IMO the Pro Charger is much easier on the drive train as it develops its power at higher RPM's roots type blowers have tremendous low end torque which so say helps to destruct the drive if you push it.

[Carl C]

This board convinced me to lose the 496 and go Blue. I found a low hour '07 model HP 525 EFI on OSO for 20g. I never regretted it and the motor is ready for reliable blower power if I decide to go all out. Don't put money into the 496. They don't even make them anymore. If you put a blower on a stock 496 you never know when it may let go. JMO.

[Titan]

This board convinced me to lose the 496 and go Blue. I found a low hour '07 model HP 525 EFI on OSO for 20g. I never regretted it and the motor is ready for reliable blower power if I decide to go all out. Don't put money into the 496. They don't even make them anymore. If you put a blower on a stock 496 you never know when it may let go. JMO


What did you have to change Carl? Exhaust through hulls, engine mounts, what had to be done with wiring to make it plug and play? What prop are you running now? I saw your posted speed, very impressive! What do you think you spent on top of the motor to complete the install?

Thanks for the insight!

[Carl C]

What did you have to change Carl? Exhaust through hulls, engine mounts, what had to be done with wiring to make it plug and play? What prop are you running now? I saw your posted speed, very impressive! What do you think you spent on top of the motor to complete the install?

Thanks for the insight!

Engine came with headers but the exhaust did not line up. It cost me about 4g for special y pipes to keep the Q&Q and relocate exh tips and repaint transom. Wiring harness was about $600 and requires a reprogram to send analog gauge signal. Prop is a BBlades 28p Bravo1. Engine mounts are stock but I did a significant ammount of reinforcement to the hull and stringers. The Bravo x drive blew up after 7 hours. I already had the Imco shorty but had to pop for a xr upper for another 4g or so. The whole job cost about 30g but i have a late model high tech motor that goes well with my '05. I sold the 496 for 8g to offset part of the expense. It's not for everyone. I boat on the Great Lakes and wanted a reliable, durable motor that will go the distance. I also didn't want to give up certain features that the 496 offers such as closed cooling and distriutorless ignition. I guess it's your call. I have $90,000 into my boat so I am either stupid or a Donzi fanatic. But I have no regrets and love my little hot rod boat. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. I will be glad to help in any way I can.

[catch 22]

imo the pro charger is much easier on the drive train as it develops its power at higher rpm's roots type blowers have tremendous low end torque which so say helps to destruct the drive if you push it.
i love my pro charger. And the stock 454 it's strapped to.

[Carl C]

i love my pro charger. And the stock 454 it's strapped to.

Yeah, I've heard a lot about your set-up. What drive?

Mop, I am pretty sure it was the air time and re-entries that broke my drive.

[yeller]

Titan, I have the procharger on my 496 and there is a noticable difference in power, even in the midrange where a lot of people think they don't make power.

The engines you heard of that blew up, do you know what octane they were using? It's my opinion......and only my un-fact based, uneducated opinion that a lot of these motors go because people run the 87 octane that procharger claims they use. I never, ever run less than 91. I try to go to Chevron and get the 94 as often as possible.

You could make a different mounting bracket that relocates the blower so you don't have to cut the stringer. I saw a thread on another sight where a guy did just that. (Sorry, but can't remember where it was).

I love the smartcraft warnings/safeties on my boat and would hate to be without them, but if you don't care about losing all that and want power as cheap as possible, pick up a solid carbed 454 and slap a blower on it. Sell the 496 and I bet you'll be into it for well under 10K (depending on how much work you can do yourself).

[catch 22]

The drive is a stock.......11 year old B1 with merc upgrade upper. 2'' shorty......lab 31 Q4, and CNC 31. This pix is pre blower.

[Titan]

The engines you heard of that blew up, do you know what octane they were using? It's my opinion......and only my un-fact based, uneducated opinion that a lot of these motors go because people run the 87 octane that procharger claims they use. I never, ever run less than 91. I try to go to Chevron and get the 94 as often as possible.

You could make a different mounting bracket that relocates the blower so you don't have to cut the stringer. I saw a thread on another sight where a guy did just that. (Sorry, but can't remember where it was).

I love the smartcraft warnings/safeties on my boat and would hate to be without them, but if you don't care about losing all that and want power as cheap as possible, pick up a solid carbed 454 and slap a blower on it. Sell the 496 and I bet you'll be into it for well under 10K (depending on how much work you can do yourself). Hey Yeller, I am not sure what fuel they were running but that is possble. I saw one of the pistons and it had been destroyed by detonation.

I want to stick with modern technology. I am also not stuck on a blower, I just want to step it up to the 500-600HP range. I just installed external steering in preperation for some more fun!!

Next is to decide which route to take and then yank the motor, I want to strengthen that area in the bilge before it becomes an issue.

[Titan]

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52868&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1261609284 (http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52868&d=1261609284)

Hey Catch did you take this picture yourself while running at 92? Those K-planes must keep that thing pretty stable! What kind of boost are you running to get that out of a stock 454?

[catch 22]

The picture was taken after the pass. (GPS recall). The K-planes are high and dry at that speed. I ran 5lbs of boost for 3 years while the Pro-Charger was under warranty, then about 1 1/2 years ago I put a 7lb pulley on it. There was no difference in the top end with the new pulley, but a lot more mid-range pull.

[Carl C]

Catch, very nice. I will be eating humble pie at Lake George I fear. I was after reliable mid 80s and that's what I got. I can cruise at 80 conditions permitting. That gets me to Put-in-Bay in a hurry! Next summer I will go a bit further and do an over nighter at Cedar Point.

[gcarter]

I suspect Jim's big obstacle at this point is air resistance.