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Phil S
12-07-2009, 10:17 PM
...Okay, here's the debate:

Whom would you consider the greatest race car driver of all time, given the constraints of the era within which he drove, and given the constraints of the car's technology at the time ?

Better still: How about race boat driver ??
(never mind....it's Don....and it's timeless)

Mario ?
Dale Earnhardt Sr?
Ralph Schumacher ?
Mika Hanniken ?
Jackie Stewart ?
.....
Other nominations ???? And reasons why ? (heck, it's winter for awhile, why not ?).....

JimG
12-08-2009, 06:04 AM
Juan Manuel Fangio.

gcarter
12-08-2009, 06:27 AM
(Sir) Stirling Moss had, I believe, had a 60+% winning average.
And very smart. When he had a bad accident/head injury in '61 or so, he retired and never looked back.

VetteLT193
12-08-2009, 07:17 AM
A.J. Foyt.

I'm not sure what the guy didn't do / win.

24 hours of LeMans
24 hours of Daytona
12 hours of Sebring
Stock Car / NASCAR wins & championships
Daytona 500
Indy 500

probably a whole bunch more stuff that I can't remember.

Last Tango
12-08-2009, 12:55 PM
Well, if you are talking about winning mutiple series over multiple decades, then I would have to offer Mario Andretti: He won the Indy 500 in Indy cars, Daytona 500 in NASCAR, the Monaco Grand Prix in Formula One cars, and the Baja 1000 in Off-Road, just to name 4 out of hundreds.

But my favorite driver of all time was Mark Donahue.

From Wikipedia:
Mario Gabriele Andretti (born February 28, 1940) is a retired American automobile racing driver, one of the most successful Americans in the history of the sport. He is one of only two drivers to win races in Formula One, IndyCar, World Sportscar Championship and NASCAR (the other being Dan Gurney). He also won races in midget cars, sprint cars, and drag racing.

During his career, Andretti won four IndyCar titles (three under USAC-sanctioning, one under CART), the 1978 Formula One World Championship, and IROC VI. To date, he remains the only driver ever to win the Indianapolis 500 (1969), Daytona 500 (1967) and the Formula One World Championship, and, along with Juan Pablo Montoya, the only driver to have won a race in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, Formula One, and an Indianapolis 500. No American has won a Formula One race since Andretti's victory at the 1978 Dutch Grand Prix.[1] Andretti had 109 career wins on major circuits.[2]

Andretti had a long career in racing. He was the only person to be named United States Driver of the Year in three decades (1967, 1978, and 1984).[3] He was also one of only three drivers to win races on road courses, paved ovals, and dirt tracks in one season, a feat that he accomplished four times.[3] With his final IndyCar win in April 1993, Andretti became the first driver to win IndyCar races in four different decades[4] and the first to win automobile races of any kind in five.[3]

In American popular culture, his name has become synonymous with speed, similar to Barney Oldfield in the early twentieth century and Stirling Moss in the United Kingdom.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.J._Foyt
A.J. Foyt is certainly not second place to anyone either for Greatest Driver of all time.

Sir Sterling Moss is really a sports cars specific guy. Here is his own ranking of all-time great drivers:
In 2006, Moss was awarded the FIA gold medal in recognition of his outstanding contribution to motorsport.[6]

In recent years, Moss has been an outspoken critic of Michael Schumacher, but in October 2006 Moss ranked Schumacher co-fourth (with Tazio Nuvolari) in the pantheon of all-time great drivers, behind Juan Manuel Fangio, Ayrton Senna and Jim Clark.[7]

thehow33
12-08-2009, 07:12 PM
My Vote is for Michael Schumacher...
Out of 15yrs driving on the Formula 1 world championship circuit he finished in the top five 15 times...7 of them being 1st place & 3 being 2nd. Statistically he has to be one of the best drivers of all time....F1 requires the most concentration and precision of all types of racing in my opinion.

Next I would pick Mario

CHACHI
12-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Danica Patrick..............

no wait...sorry.


Ken

Phil S
12-08-2009, 11:51 PM
I need to read up further on Fangio....and look much, much, much closer at Danica Patrick.....for research purposes and all that....;)

I'm pretty sure I have a book written by Mr. Moss...thanks for the reminder Mr. Carter.

Who was the Brazillion (sp) (former F1 champ), his name has currently left me, that won the Indy 500 and dissed the milk for Orange Juice ? He was a pretty good at the time. Nigel Mansell, the Brit, how many F1 championships' did he win ? Jackie Stewart...not necessarily a fan of his, but he won a few.

Last Tango and VetteLT193 are definitely on the right track of discussion. Venues, timetables, available horsepower (technologically-speaking-wise). In my opinion, those guys won wherever they were racing, in whatever they were driving. I guess that is what I thinking about.

No mistake about it though, Michael Schumacher could flat-out drive an 1,100 hp Ferrari right by the field...in the rain...and often did. Then again, Mario and AJ didn't have traction control, abs brakes, launch control, rev-limiters, etc....nor did they have 1,100 hp to deal with.

So how should we decide ?

BUIZILLA
12-09-2009, 06:34 AM
Jim Clark

Dan Gurney

Mark Donahue

AIRGRADY
12-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Ayerton Senna................ Simply the best to ever get behind the wheel, in my opinion.

Track records set in the rain on slicks?!:bonk:

RIP Senna, you left us too soon.

Last Tango
12-09-2009, 10:09 AM
Every driver name spoken here so far is a legend in motosports. Perhaps some would add Dale Earnhart for the most NASCAR championships, Richard Petty for the most NASCAR wins, and Danica Patrick for the best body to ever fall out of a INDY car driver's suit. But let's not forget folks like Don Garlits (Top Fuel), Grumpy Jenkins (Pro Stock), Ronnie Sox (Pro Stock/Funny cars), John Force (Top Fuel/Funny cars) and his daughter Ashley Force for the other best body to ever fall out of a driving suit.

However, this list of folks, including the winningest F1 driver Michael Schumacher, all have one thing in common - they are all one series specialists.

If we are going to debate this for fun, then in my opinion the original premise of the best driver of all time would require drivers with multiple venues of success.
So that means that F1, Indy cars, and Dancing with the Stars winner Helio Castroneves is the only true multi-faceted driver. After all, the others only have major wins in motorsports. LOL!

silverghost
12-09-2009, 10:10 AM
Danica Patrick would win the award for the biggest EGO and biggest chip on her shoulder today !
She has a real attitude problem.
All the hype & publicity has gone to her head.

My vote would be for Tazio Nuvolari~
He was a madman !
He would win with inferior & outdated racecars on sheer guts alone.

Last Tango
12-09-2009, 10:14 AM
Naa, when it comes to ego, Danica is a low ranking amature among this group. Her only real claim to fame is one paltry win in Japan, and two features in SI, but only because she was willing to pose nude.

zelatore
12-09-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm going to have to go with the classics-
Fangio
Moss
Nuvolari
Andretti
Clark

Of the modern racing era, I'm going to vote Schumaker. He's really the guy who brought F1 to it's current standard and he simply OWNS the record book.

Current F1 drivers, I'm going with Fernando Alonso even though I don't like the guy. I think he's got more raw skill than anybody else on the circuit today. My personal favorite though would be Vettle - I'm waiting for him to take a championship one day.

Somebody nobody mentioned is Sebastian Loeb. Multi-time WRC champion. When it comes to outright speed and sheer concentration, I have to give it to the rally drivers. Plus he beat Schumaker in an open wheeler at the IROC races a couple years ago. The guy's good!

zelatore
12-09-2009, 07:12 PM
So that means that F1, Indy cars, and Dancing with the Stars winner Helio Castroneves is the only true multi-faceted driver. After all, the others only have major wins in motorsports. LOL!

Helio's cool and all, but I don't remember him ever taking an F1 win. For that matter, I can't even remember if he ever raced in F1 (and I'm feeling too lazy to look it up at the moment)

Last Tango
12-09-2009, 07:29 PM
Don,
That's OK. I didn't look it up either.

Addendum: Starting his career in karting, Castroneves later raced in the Paul Stewart Racing team, and finished third in the 1995 British Formula Three Championship. [1]




:convertib:

Phil S
12-09-2009, 08:16 PM
I agree that that venue is an awesome testament to driver skill. The cars have become dramatically different over the years as well. Didn't Hans Stuck drive in the WRC for a while ? Maybe Axel could chime in here...?

Last Tango
12-10-2009, 08:26 AM
Hans-Joachim "Striezel" Stuck (born 1 January 1951) is a German racing driver who has competed in Formula One and many other categories. He is the son of the legendary Hans Stuck. As a young boy, his father taught him driving on the Nürburgring. In 1969 he started his first ever motor race at the Nordschleife. Speaking about that day he said, "Getting to the grid was extremely exciting. All of a sudden, my wishes to become a racer came true. I just wanted to start the race and give everybody hell!"[1] Remarkably, the following year, at just 19 years of age, he won his first 24 hours race at the wheel of a BMW 2002TI. He won there again in 1998 and 2004, too, each time with a BMW touring car.

The always friendly and funny, tall and blond Bavarian, who is living in Austria, was immediately after his birth nicknamed Striezel by his grandmother, as she claimed that the newborn baby looked like one of the famous Stollen cakes of her Saxony area. He is also nicknamed "Regenmeister" ("Rainmaster") for his ability to race on wet tracks.

In 1972, Stuck teamed up with Jochen Mass to drive a Ford Capri RS2600 to victory at the Spa 24 Hours endurance race in Belgium. His campaigns racing the BMW 3.0 CSL "Batmobile" were very successful in 1974 and 1975, in the German DRM as well as in the USA together with Ronnie Peterson. Later in the 1970s he raced the turbo-charged BMW 320i.

After some success in Formula 2 with a March-BMW, he also entered F1 with March. Overall, Stuck participated in 81 Grands Prix, debuting on 13 January 1974. He achieved 2 podiums and scored 29 championship points. Stuck was quite successful at Brabham-Alfa in 1977, leading the 1977 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in the rain, but was replaced by Niki Lauda for 1978. Stuck missed an opportunity to join Williams F1 just before this team became successful.

Due to his height of 194 cm, he did not fit well into the F1 cars of the late 1970s that had the cockpit moved forward. Leaving F1 at that time probably spared him bad injuries to the leg, as suffered by Ronnie Peterson, Clay Regazzoni, Marc Surer and others.

Stuck continued racing touring and sports cars all over the world, winning the 24 hours of Le Mans twice with a Porsche 962. Stuck says the 962 is the favourite racecar he has driven during his career, describing it has having the "perfect combination of power and downforce".[1]

In the 1990s he tasted touring car success, winning the DTM Championship in 1990 with Audi, before returning to Porsche until the 24 hours of Le Mans in 1998. He resumed an official role with BMW after that. In 2006, Stuck raced in the inaugural season of the Grand Prix Masters formula for retired Formula One drivers after scoring 6th in the first race event at the Kyalami circuit in South Africa on 11-13 November 2005.

January 2008 saw Hans begin his current position with Volkswagen Motorsport.[2] This role has also seen him use his experience to help refine road cars, including the new Golf VI GTI.[3]

mphatc
12-11-2009, 08:36 PM
This topic will have many names with many great accomplishments . . but for overall wins in many different cars and conditions I have to say Andretti wins , Senna sadly left us way too soon, his skills were incredible.
M. Schumacher, sorry, after seeing what Jenson Button did this year I can't help but wonder how much of Micheal's success really belongs to Brawn! You have to factor in technology , when Ayrton and Mario drove, cars had no ABS, no traction control, you needed a clutch, and the speeds albeit a bit slower weren't that much slower than todays cars. Somehow I doubt Shumi could handle a track like Langhorne PA . . .

To me an outstanding athelete needs to be in top physical condition to be be competetive . . and if their chosen venue allows then to win w/o being in top condition then that venue does not qualify as worthy of bringing out the best . . .
as example, notice how round and plump JP Montoya now is since moving to couch potato racing, same goes for Tony Stewart . . .

I met M Andretti in 1996 at NHIS for the last CART event he drove there .. he was 56 years old then, and this guy was in shape!!!, I also met his son Michael, who was no where near the condition of his Dad! His career spanned many decades at the peak of his performance . . . how many other have done that?

Mario L.
biased by name :cool:

RPD
12-18-2009, 05:08 PM
1. Fangio
2. Moss
3. Jackie Stewart

in that order

gcarter
12-18-2009, 05:38 PM
Moss DID race in F1......and came in 2nd in points.....FOUR YEARS IN A ROW!!!!!:nilly::nilly:

I believe it's the only time that's been done, and in clearly inferior English equipment.
If only he hadn't retired when he did.

JimG
12-18-2009, 06:07 PM
RPD, your list is perfect...
I met Sir Moss a couple of years ago at Keels & Wheels. Pure class...

JimG
12-18-2009, 08:01 PM
Interesting thread, BTW.

All mentioned were/are Superman, without a doubt.

My choice of Fangio had naught to do with number of wins, different types of cars driven, etc. I read what the man did at the Ring in '57. Unbelievable.

http://www.nurburgring.org.uk/fangio.html

zelatore
12-19-2009, 01:00 PM
This is F1 - specific, but it's interesting none the less. The ratings were done by drivers with F1 experience.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1

Their top 5:
Senna
Schumaker
Fangio
Prost
Clark

The highest ranked current driver (discounting the story that MS will race for Mercedes next year) is Alonso at 9th.

zelatore
12-19-2009, 01:35 PM
One other man nobody mentioned - Surtees. Only guy to win world championships on 2 wheels and 4.

I only know one other guy with the potential to do that, though he's still unproven in F1.......they call him the Doctor.

CHACHI
12-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Don, I was just going to post John Surtees.

World championships in two different disciplens.

Untouched.

Ken

I spent most of the day trying to think of his last name.

gcarter
12-20-2009, 07:43 AM
Surtees is definately unique.
He was at the Amelia Island Concours several years ago.