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harbormaster
12-19-2002, 08:59 PM
1. Do we have any Turbine engine experts on the board?

2. Is there someone out there who know where a VERY good deal could be had on a Turbine engine. Preferably an (Allison 250-C18)

3. Is there anyway to rig them where you do not need the ear protection? I can't see the fun of owning a boat that requires earmuffs even in the summer.

These are just some preliminary questions I need to ask.

Greg Maier
12-19-2002, 10:40 PM
The ship that I was on in the Navy had GE LM2500 Turbines, 40,000 HP(if I remember correctly) and they weren't that loud at all. The thrust from the jets turned a turbine which drove the prop. I think the level of noise depends on how you plan on using the thrust. If you are using it to turn a turbine that turns a shaft(like a helicopter or ship), then it won't be that loud. If you are using the thrust to propel the boat like a jet fighter, then it will probably be very loud.

Woodsy
12-20-2002, 06:27 AM
Our illustrious student intern might have already had that idea... best to check with him!! wink wink

Yes, it would be loud.... would be very cool... but very loud....

Woodsy Von Rocket Scientist :D :D

Digger
12-20-2002, 07:36 AM
a turbine engine is going to be loud no matter how its configured. you can however, insulate the crap out of the engine bay and get noise outside the bay down to surprisingly low levels. the tradeoff here is heat doesnt escape as well, which does not hurt the turbine, but may hurt accessories around it such as pump modules, and hydraulics. Electrical components should be kept out of this area as much as practicable.

Greg Maier
12-20-2002, 08:54 AM
Sure, turbines can be loud, but they can also be quiet. I could stand right next to the exhaust pipes on my ship at WOT (Flank Speed in Navy speak). Don't get me wrong, there was some noise, but you could shout over it. I'm not sure what mechanism was used to quiet them, since I wasn't an engineer onboard, but whatever they used worked.

Woodsy
12-20-2002, 09:18 AM
Lets not forget about the heat... fiberglass & heat do not like each other. If you were to put a turbine in a fiberglass boat, heat would be your biggest worry. You can reduce noise with insulation, but that traps heat... Turbines in pleasure boats are not a big deal, providing you can provide enough airflow to to supply the engine and keep the engine compartment relatively cool, say no more than 160F...

The logistic of a turbine in a Donzi are not that hard to overcome, but given the limited size of the engine compartment, noise reduction would be an issue.

As far as the Navy boats go, they have alot of different systems that help lower thier noise signature... the best one being the sheer mass of the boats. If you have to shout, then its too loud and it will eventually damage your hearing. If its mounted in a pleasure boat, most of the noise is directed out the rear, so driving it should not be too bad. Just don't wear anythjing that could cause FOD.... that would be bad... very bad...

Woodsy Von Donzi :D :D

MOP
12-20-2002, 12:42 PM
Try contacting Hustler boats on Long Island, I saw one that they set up. I asked a few questions, HP, fuel etc. They said they thought they were 1100Hp and were converted to run Kero.

Gary S.
12-21-2002, 06:57 AM
You may find some useful information here www.howardarneson.com (http://www.howardarneson.com)

Gearhead99
12-21-2002, 07:34 AM
Several years ago there was a Fountain at the Ft. Liquiordale boat show with twin turbines in it. I didn't hear it run, but the man at the boat stated that it whins pretty good.

Also, it was thirsty. Not so much at WOT but when you pulled the throttles back to idle, etc. it drank fuel.

Lastly, at the Ft. Liquiordale boat show they had a Cary with turbine. I think it was 70 foot. Turbine in center and twin Diesel's, one on each side. VERY LARGE turbine exhaust center rear.

Cuda
12-21-2002, 09:21 AM
Here is a picture of Drambui on Ice poker run boat at the Sarasota PRA last April. It has turbines in it. What amazed me was how small they are. Check out the size of the air intakes though.
http://www.donzi.net/photos/jgriffdoi.jpg

http://www.donzi.net/photos/jgriffjet.jpg

Greg
12-22-2002, 09:44 AM
These guys really seem to know what they are doing. www.gas-turbines.com (http://www.gas-turbines.com) the SquirtII fly-by video is pretty good. There is quite a bit of good info and videos on their website. A Donzi like that would be awsome to say the least.

Tom Brown
12-22-2002, 10:49 AM
You might want to check out:

http://www.turbineboat.com/

The engine used is an Allison T63-A-700. He seems like a good guy who would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

-- Tom

HyperDonzi
12-22-2002, 11:36 AM
Scot, what are you planning?!?!

Gary S.
12-22-2002, 02:23 PM
If anyone wants to see some VERY impressive turbine powered boats, type "Howard Arneson" in your search engine. He is THE main authority and pioneer in this field and has more miles over 100 MPH than most have in boats period. The rest are following in his footsteps and have a long way to go to catch up and from what I have seen of his boats they have inclosed engine compartments and look like any other boat except for about a 16'' exaust pipe for each engine. Anyone looking for one should be able to have pretty good luck with major military surplus dealers, aircraft engines that have reached their TBO limit still have a lot of life left and shoud not need much if anything to run kerosene or diesel fuel, being the fact that they work on the same principal as your basic diesel engine as in they heat the air, thru compression, to a point where the fuel will ignight. If Jay Leno can tool around L.A. on a jet powered motorcycle, a boat should be a bit easier. Whats the thought's from the expert's here ???

Greg Maier
12-22-2002, 07:31 PM
For all of you who want to brush up on your gas turbine knowledge, there is a great Gas Turbine Primer at this link:

Gas Turbine Primer (http://www.howstuffworks.com/turbine1.htm)

CnV & Family
12-23-2002, 08:37 AM
I'm just a computer network junkie that has Donzitis. But here are my thoughs... turbine or otherwise.

I think it would be cool for Donzi to work with the Donzi Registry and build a project boat to showcase. This boat would be built by Donzi, using the input (and possible contributions) of the board as to provide the customizations for the project. Several members would be voted to be the voice of the board, at a bare minimum least two from each Donzi club and the harbormaster. It would promote Donzi and the Donzi Registry first, but also promote the individual Donzi clubs. This would not only be a reflection of Donzi's commitment to their customers, but also a reflection of the community that Donzi IS. Imagine seeing a 'community's work of art' built and showcased not only at boat shows and races... but at the Donzi gatherings.

Would this not be a great way to help push Donzi forward? In addition to a grand re-entrance to the racing scene and the excitement over the upcoming season... quality apparal (soon) and above all... timeles boats... I think this would top the cake as something that is a win-win for everyone.

Maybe I'm just dreaming... but most likey I'm far from adequately describing what i'm thinking. Nor would I have a clue about the logistics of such an undertaking. So... I'll leave it at that for now.

-C

P.S. - Chris is working at the factory right? :D

WOT-sup
12-28-2002, 08:07 PM
Turbine power is a wonderful thing... saw a street legal PT-6 powered Corvette about 20 years ago. It was at an FBO in, if I recall, Boca Raton. That would have been a ride.

Digger
12-28-2002, 09:31 PM
I'll add another couple of cents worth. First, Greg, I'm sorry to differ with you but I disagree. I understand completely how quiet a turbine engine can be, if you are standing at, or downstream of, the exhaust. Did you ever get the chance to stand next to the turbine itself, while it was running at 100% free turbine rated speed, under significant load? i.e underway at flank? I'll bet its loud in there.

Turbines, such as those installed in helicopters, are extremely reliable. Failures generally come downstream, in the transmission area or further down in the propulsion system, rather than in the turbine itself. But there are several very significant "Oh by the ways"

1. These motors are very expensive to overhaul. Lets start at the front. First is the intake section of the motor. The only function in life of this section is to get clean air into the compressor section. If you have no real fear of contaminants coming in, then this can be a straight intake. For helicopter installations we have to provide a system to remove dust/dirt from the intake air, which actually is done quite efficiently. After the intake section comes the compressor section. Compressor sections involve at least 5 and up to 10 "stages", (a "stage" is a set of turbine blades around a hub. This succession of hubs is splined to a shaft which is driven by the power turbine, or the turbine which comes just after the combustion chamber) the blades on each stage, as you proceed rearward in the engine, typically have shorter chord, shorter span, and greater angle of attack, progressively pressurizing and accelerating the intake air for efficient explosion of the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. In the combustion section chamber, fuel is introduced via a series of nozzles, explodes, and this volatile force then meets the next section, which is the "power" or "free" turbine. This section is generally only one to three stages long, and it is this power which is harnessed by a high speed shaft which eventually powers the drivetrain. Which brings me to the point of this paragraph; these turbines spin anywhere from 20-30,000 rpm. The tolerances involved are very tight. Anything that spins that fast will be expensive to fix.

2. what if a turbine fails? Regardless the reliability inherent to these motors, if one does fail, it can get ugly. Causes of failure are usually foreign object ingestion or improper fuel/air mixture. Foreign object damage, or "FOD" as we like to call it, is usually catastrophic to the engine. Say just for fun we throw a cotter pin, or paper clip, or a bb (get the idea?) into a running turbine motor. That object enters the 20-30,000 rpm cuisinart, and the result is intuitave. The other cause may be improper fuel/air mix, which can be caused a couple different ways. First, the fuel control has to be in rig. A turbine fuel control is the most complicated section of the engine. In order to provide the appropriate fuel supply, this "box" needs to know the current speed of the compressor (or gas) turbine, the current speed of the power turbine, the desired speed of the power turbine (normally 100%), the ambient air temp, the ambient atmospheric pressure, the pressure of the fuel being pumped in to itself, and about 5 other things that I cant remember right now because I'm drunk and trying to avoid the fact that I want a cigarette real bad. (the kind that smokes, not the boat). Point being the fuel control needs to be in rig. If you dont work for GE or Pratt/Whitney or etc etc you dont know how to do this. malfunction of this box generally results in some kind of compressor stall or flameout. neither of which are death inducing (when you're on the water vice in the air, thankfully) but will be an irritant.

3. theres other stuff to talk about but Ill get to that later if anyone is interested

Greg Maier
12-29-2002, 09:57 AM
Hey Digger, I was a Supply Guy, they never let me get near those turbine enclosures !

harbormaster
12-29-2002, 11:01 AM
Digger, interesting response. Please continue.

Digger
12-29-2002, 01:25 PM
LOL Greg :D

I should make clear (now that I am sober) that I don't have any boat related turbine knowledge, but I do have a large experience base with turbine powered helicopters. So I guess I'll just share some experiences/general knowledge which may apply. I was talking about the fuel control unit, (FCU, or ECU as its sometimes known) for automatic regulation of fuel. The alternative is to manually meter fuel into the turbine. This is tricky business, but most helicopters have this capability in case of FCU malfunction. Essentially YOU become the FCU by means of a lever which is routed via pushrods and bellcranks directly to the fuel flow divider, or that point downstream of the FCU where fuel enters the casing. This requires a delicate touch, but also gives an appreciation for WHY the FCU requires so many inputs to function correctly. In my terms (i.e. simple) there is either too little fuel, just right, or too much. The FCU keeps the flow at "just right". Too little fuel usually results in a lean flameout (flameout=instance where intake air literally blows out the flame) Too much fuel usually results in overtemp (1200-1800 degrees celsius are typical numbers sufficient to fry a combustion section, depending on type of turbine) or a compressor stall. As load is increased fuel flow has to be precisely increased, as load is decreased, the fuel flow must be correspondingly precisely decreased.

some interesting turbine facts:
-2/3 of intake air is never combusted, it is ducted around the combustion section to cool it. If you didnt do this temps would be destructive
-around 75% of the power produced by the turbine is used to power the gas generator (the part up front that is squishing and accelerating the intake air) you actually get only about 25% of the power transferred to whatever it is you're spinning, be it a propellor or a helicopter rotorhead.

accessory section. most if not all turbines employ some kind of accessory section. This consists of stuff that is bolted to the side or underneath the turbine, and is powered by a radial shaft that splines to the axial shaft (axial shaft=long straight thingy that goes from front to rear of motor, the main shaft in other words. radial shaft: picture a small shaft coming off the main shaft in a perpendicular (usually downwards) direction from the main shaft) this shaft is necessarily speed reduced and then powers stuff like fuel pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, etc. other subsystems, like hydraulic pumps and electrical generators are not normally mounted to the turbine itself. These components are fed further down the driveline, and are normally bolted to a transmission or "mix box", part of the speed reduction process. A turbine would provide enough power in a boat to power all electronics via hard mounted generators and associated busses, any hydraulics necessary could be provided for (kplanes/drive trim/steering) by mean of pump modules hard mounted to the transmission.

next topic: fuel. oh yeah, and a fun part: starting a turbine

Greg Maier
01-06-2003, 05:30 AM
Hey Guys,
Go to this website Turbine Boat (http://www.turbineboat.com/)

Scroll to the bottom of the homepage for the videos.

This guy has a turbine powered Glastron, and a turbine powered Baja. Lots of cool videos of the turbineboat in action.

And, yes Digger, the turbine does seem to be loud as evidenced by the hearing potection worn by the driver and passenger :D

KMLFAMILY
01-06-2003, 06:11 PM
Then there is the insurance issue.Besides the fuel consumption & noise.Some machine work to make output shaft brake, to allow forward&reverse . Safety blanket (that covers turbine in case of failure) mandated use by racers(expensive).Corrosion issue also.But they sure are Bad azz toy"s for the rich !

http://www.aquatoystore.com/gallery/viewlisting.php?list_id=63&stock=408&view=All Boats

http://www.callanmarine.com/

eek!