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Phil S
11-04-2009, 10:42 PM
After a full spring / summer of no problems at all, she's been under the shed, and under a cover the last several rainy weekends we've had here down south. I pulled her out last weekend, hooked up to the hose, and she cranked right up...first turn of the key. Idled for probably 30 minutes to warm up, all gauges show normal readings...then shut her down. Checked fluid levels, all are normal....go back to crank it up again, and the starter sounds like the battery is dead ! Hit the key, the solenoid engages, pinion gear engages flywheel, but not enough "umph" to crank motor, then the solenoid / starter makes that "dead battery sound" if you hold the key...ticka-ticka-etc. Battery is 10 months old, and I have a brand new spare, never been used at all. I hook up the spare, same result. Put the old one on an overnight 2 amp charge, less than an hour later is shows fully-charged. Newer battery put on charge as well, shows fully-charged in less than a minute.
So, I check the connections to battery. Positive is suspect, so I replace it. Checked negative (replaced this spring), and still looks new. Check engine connections. Ground strap connection at engine is clean and shiny. On the solenoid, there was some signs of rust / corrosion, so I disconnected all of them, cleaned them up with sandpaper, file, wirebrush until shiny new. Thin layer of di-electric grease applied to all connections, re-connected, same result when I hit the key.
A friend came over tonight with a 200 amp dc charger (mechanic's floor model type) wanting to see if it would crank with it. Same result...tickaticka, etc.
Our summation is I have a worn out / weak starter at this point. Any other's opinions would be most welcome.
Looking at the starter on this thing (4.3 Ragazza), it is going to be a total pita to replace. Bench seat will have to come out just to gain access to it...then it looks like both the old and new starters will have to go under the oil pan to the other side of the boat whilst removing and installing...(any tips here would be most appreciated )
My last problem is when I looked on-line for replacement starters for this motor, I found marinized starters ranging in price from 59.99 to over 249.00...anyone have any advice on a source for a quality starter ? I damn sure don't want to replace this thing very often...if ever again:nilly:
Thanks in advance for any and all input.....
with kind regards,
Phil S.

axelkloehn
11-05-2009, 01:14 AM
Go to this thread, you might find some advices with checking your starter. De-installing/installing is really a mess with the engine in place... :boggled:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59887

gcarter
11-05-2009, 06:25 AM
If it's Merc, there's a booster solenoid on a panel w/your big breaker. If it's weak, it can give those results. It's cheap @ about $20, I think.

mrfixxall
11-05-2009, 08:20 AM
like stated,check the starter solenoid, if the starter sounds like its engageing put a braker bar on the crank pully and see it you can turn the motor by hand first..im just woudering if you may have got some water in your cylinders (just as a caution) if you cant turn the crank by hand pull the plugs and see if water comes out of the cylinders..

Just Say N20
11-05-2009, 08:24 AM
When I read his post, the first thought I had was also check for a hydro-lock situation.

I had an intake valve break off in my X18 while idling at 900 rpms. The starter did everything he describes, except make the ticka-ticka-ticka dead battery sound. It didn't do that. You could hear the gear engage the flywheel and then nothing.

Good test to try and spin the engine by hand (center/coil lead off as a precaution?).

MOP
11-05-2009, 09:10 AM
Before you go crazy check the block ground connections it can work fine one day and die the next. Any of the main voltage connection can produce the same condition you are having, also check the ends on the cables.

MOP
11-05-2009, 09:24 AM
That starter is a pain to get out, note there are four wires two are very easy to ID as they have a big lug to fit the large post. One is the battery feed the other comes from your alternator to charge the system, as to the other two one is for solenoid actuation the other goes up to the coil for hot start. Put tape or something that will not come off on the small outer wire for easy ID going back together, those wires are a biotch to get at it will make you some pizzed getting those two mixed up.

Phil S
11-05-2009, 12:26 PM
Thanks everyone....

Its an omc, so I don't think it has the starter solenoid (at least i don't think it does ?)...sorry, I should have told you what it was already.

I'm willing to re-check every connection, and will, before I attempt the starter replacement, because it does look like a bear of a job. You just can't get to it !

It's not sounding like a hydro-locked engine sounds, or at least the only one I've ever heard. When the pinion gear hits the flywheel, it has enough strength to barely turn the engine, but then it quickly tires. I'm hearing the carb "breathing" when it does this. I don't guess that necessarily rules out hydrolock. I'll pull the plugs and see if the starter will spin it with no compression. Heck, I'd almost rather have a hydrolocked motor than to have to replace this dang starter !

Again, thanks for the helpful replies !

With kind regards,
Phil

silverghost
11-05-2009, 01:00 PM
Sure sounds like a starter solenoid to me!
I have had the same issue with my BBC 454 over the years !
My engine eats marine starter solenoids !
I have replaced 4 in 12 years!
I only use top quality Marine solenoids!
They are supposedly completely sealed with rubber gaskets.
Still the condensation still gets sucked-in.
I keep my boat in the water for five months each summer!
It is also covered when not in use!
Slight bilge water & condensation create a damp environment in the engine compartment.
When boat engine under cover gets hot during the day then the cold damp outside air comes in or forms at night. Condensation then becomes a real issue! The cooling engine with the high humidity moisture filled air will create a partial vacuum that allows this moist air to be sucked inside the solenoid contact cap area..
Repeat this night after night and this solenoid contact cover cavity soon fills with quite a bit of water.
The condensation gets sucked-in and cannot drain out !
See my photos below~
Here is what I found in July after the exact same issues you are having !
I am surprized it started at all !
Pretty nasty corrosion !
When any water gets in there the electrically charged contacts just stew in this water!
My Dad says to drill a small hole to allow water to drain & escape.
But this defeats the purpose of an ignition protected UL listed Coast Guard Approved marine starter!
Any gas fumes might explode in bilge if all electrical engine items are not marine & completely sealed !
Gasoline fumes are heavier than air and thus lay low in the bilge~ exactly where most starters live .
This is why inboard & I/O boats are required to have bilge blowers and proper ventilation .
Replace your solenoid and you will be good to go!
I bet you a pizza the starter itself is fine!
Please excuse the blurry photos~ My digital camera does not like close-ups !
BUT~
You should get the picture !
If these sealed marine electrical parts had a small vent/drain hole in the bottom the vacuum would not form as the pressure would equalize and any little water would drain out before causing any corrosion problems.
With a drilled vent/drain hole you would then need to cover it with a very fine brass or Stainless Steel screen similar to screens used on fuel tamk pick-ups to act as a flash supressor ~ This would quench any spark or flame to retain the UL & CG marine spark ratings.
Mallory has been using this type of vent hole and screen on it's marine approved distributors for decades !

By the way~
You DO NOT want a hydrolocked engine !
The starter/solenoid issue is an easy cheap fix.
A hydrolocked engine ~ Is a very bad problem ! ; )

Kirbyvv
11-05-2009, 01:27 PM
I got a starter horror story. My starter went and we couldn't get the bolts loose. I took it to the local marine (a decent place). They ended up pulling the engine so they could get the starter off. Pretty pricey starter job. Antiseze on everything now.

mrfixxall
11-05-2009, 03:00 PM
Sure sounds like a starter solenoid to me!
I have had the same issue with my BBC 454 over the years !
My engine eats marine starter solenoids !
I have replaced 4 in 12 years!
I only use top quality Marine solenoids!
They are supposedly completely sealed with rubber gaskets.
Still the condensation still gets sucked-in.
I keep my boat in the water for five months each summer!
It is also covered when not in use!
Slight bilge water & condensation create a damp environment in the engine compartment.
When boat engine under cover gets hot during the day then the cold damp outside air comes in or forms at night. Condensation then becomes a real issue! The cooling engine with the high humidity moisture filled air will create a partial vacuum that allows this moist air to be sucked inside the solenoid contact cap area..
Repeat this night after night and this solenoid contact cover cavity soon fills with quite a bit of water.
The condensation gets sucked-in and cannot drain out !
See my photos below~
Here is what I found in July after the exact same issues you are having !
I am surprized it started at all !
Pretty nasty corrosion !
When any water gets in there the electrically charged contacts just stew in this water!
My Dad says to drill a small hole to allow water to drain & escape.
But this defeats the purpose of an ignition protected UL listed Coast Guard Approved marine starter!
Any gas fumes might explode in bilge if all electrical engine items are not marine & completely sealed !
Gasoline fumes are heavier than air and thus lay low in the bilge~ exactly where most starters live .
This is why inboard & I/O boats are required to have bilge blowers and proper ventilation .
Replace your solenoid and you will be good to go!
I bet you a pizza the starter itself is fine!
Please excuse the blurry photos~ My digital camera does not like close-ups !
BUT~
You should get the picture !
If these sealed marine electrical parts had a small vent/drain hole in the bottom the vacuum would not form as the pressure would equalize and any little water would drain out before causing any corrosion problems.
With a drilled vent/drain hole you would then need to cover it with a very fine brass or Stainless Steel screen similar to screens used on fuel tamk pick-ups to act as a flash supressor ~ This would quench any spark or flame to retain the UL & CG marine spark ratings.
Mallory has been using this type of vent hole and screen on it's marine approved distributors for decades !

By the way~
You DO NOT want a hydrolocked engine !
The starter/solenoid issue is an easy cheap fix.
A hydrolocked engine ~ Is a very bad problem ! ; )


Ghost, you need to pack the solenoid cover with dielectric Greece and you will have no more issues,i did a customers this way 10 yrs ago and haven't fooled with the starter since.. Fins a western snowplow dealer (that would be me) lol and use westerns dielectric Greece, it has inhibitors it that protect the contacts from the elements..

silverghost
11-05-2009, 03:09 PM
WOW: I and, several friends have been down that road and had to resort to pulling the entire engine.
This happens quite often in a Donzi C 16, 18. 22 engine hatch compartment & I am not a small guy !
Been there~Done that !
I always use anti-seze on most all engine bolts!
If you have a starter prone to failure in a boat that must be removed often you should consider a TOP MOUNT starter & bell/drive /housing.
If you can find one for your application.?
This puts the starter up top in the open for easy servicing.
Remember if you turn the starter around 180* on a top mount application you must use a reverse rotation starter with a reverse rotation starter drive bendix ..
These can simplify your life !

silverghost
11-05-2009, 03:18 PM
FIXX
I agree~ In most cases.
If you look closely at my blurry photos above you will see the old dried-up Dielectric lube is still in there!
Now~ I did not put it in there~
It was done at the solenoid factory (most likely in China or Mexico).
And we all know how good a job they do on their asembly lines!
Perhapps If I had opened-it-up and done a good job with the dielectric lube myself this would not have happened !
Does this dielectric lube not insulate electrical items?

Phil S
11-05-2009, 03:18 PM
I could probably replace the solenoid relatively easy compared to the whole starter, but I didn't think that it was a separate or separable unit.

I just found one from Go2Marine for $25.00 bucks.

I'm pretty sure it's not h20locked.

I have no idea how old any of these parts may be...it's an '89 and I have no history on any parts replaced over the years (or at least past the last 3). I like the thought of having a complete new starter/solenoid combo on it though...peace of mind I guess.

Many thanks for all your help.
Phil

MOP
11-05-2009, 06:22 PM
You have two solenoids in the system, the slave which is mounted by the engines circuit breaker and the starters solenoid. You need to do a process of elimination so as not to spend any unneeded $$$!!

Start with verifying the electrical contacts, then check the slave then the main solenoid, if nothing changes then pull the starter. The fact that it "does" try to turn the engine leads me to believe it is either the starter or connections and not the solenoids.

Phil

mrfixxall
11-05-2009, 06:29 PM
FIXX
I agree~ In most cases.
If you look closely at my blurry photos above you will see the old dried-up Dielectric lube is still in there!
Now~ I did not put it in there~
It was done at the solenoid factory (most likely in China or Mexico).
And we all know how good a job they do on their asembly lines!
Perhapps If I had opened-it-up and done a good job with the dielectric lube myself this would not have happened !
Does this dielectric lube not insulate electrical items?


if you pack it with dielectric greece it will keep the moisture out by not allowing room for it to build up..

gonzojessie
11-07-2009, 01:15 AM
I have a 25' ragazza with a 7.4 and a Bravo, and its a pain to change the starter, check the solinoids(both of them) and if they test good, and the connections are good, then pull the starter and have it rebuilt to save a few $$$'s be sure to bench test it first(don't ask me how I know this LOL), it would have saved me a little less blood in the blige and pulling the starter the second time, and use plenty of di-electric grease in and on all connections, and plenty of anti seize on all bolts(for future work) or to help the next guy that gets the boat...Good luck

joseph m. hahnl
11-07-2009, 05:10 PM
Take a power booster"quick start charger" and hot jump the starter at the solenoid. If the starter cranks over full.

You already implied that the solenoid is working when you said that the starter engages the fly wheel.

all the solenoid does is make a contact between the battery lead and the stater lead.

MOP
11-07-2009, 06:14 PM
Thinking about the GM solenoid on the starter, the contact disk may be burned and not passing enough current, could be the cause of what is going on. Over time the contacts burn down quite a bit, an old fix is to turn the main contact posts 180 degrees and flip the contact disk over WA LA all new contact surfaces.

silverghost
11-07-2009, 10:38 PM
MOP may be correct !
Just look at my solenoid photos posted above.
You can see that the disc & contacts are burned & corroded!
When I turned the key with the above pictured solenoid my starter solenoid would engage the starter drive bendix pull the starter drive gear fully out and then just click ! The bendix drive & gear would go all the way into the flywheel ring gear ~
Then because of the heavily corroded & burned disc & two main battery contacts the starter would not budge & just sat there !
These solenoid contacts would not allow enough battery voltage & current to actually turn the starter!
Again~
I would bet you a Extra Large Pizza that this is your starter problem too !

Phil S
11-28-2009, 06:06 PM
Update: I'm not exactly sure if it wound up being the solenoid contacts or internals on the starter, because I went ahead and replaced both with a new starter / solenoid. Actually, a friend referred me to a great local marine mechanic who replaced it :). I was going to replace it, but to gain access to it, the whole rear bench seat / hatches had to be removed. By the time I removed all of that (probably half the job), my back gave out !:frown: I ain't as good as I once was !

Anyway, the shop only charged me a half hour's labor to replace the starter...which I thought was super-reasonable.

While they had it, I asked them to replace the u-joint bellows, and to check my shift linkage, as my reverse gear was not shifting in and out smoothly. They traced down the problem to what I am going to call the "lever" that the transom shift cable attaches to in the lower unit. It was slightly bent, and a small groove in it was not "true" which was apparently not allowing enough "throw" in and out of reverse. That one little "lever" part was pricey, but they said it shifts smooth as silk now. They water tested it, but I haven't had a chance to yet, as we had to travel for the holiday.

I'm hoping the weather holds out for one more trip out to check it out before winterizing. At least with all the rear seats & such still out of the boat, changing the oil & fuel filters and winterizing will be a breeze. Then I'll have to enlist some buddies to lift that dang 100 lb bench into to the boat ! I won't take it out by myself again, I know that.

Anyway, thank you all for your helpful advice and suggestions. Hope you all had a safe & happy Thanksgiving.

With kind regards,
Phil S

Phil S
11-29-2009, 07:18 PM
Back from the Holiday this evening....first chance to check out my new mechanic's work.....

Keep in mind, 4.3 OMC, a new starter was just installed...new u-joint bellows, work on the shift linkage has been paid for, and, according to the shop I took it to, they water-tested it and it is shifting "smooth as silk".

I picked it up last Tuesday evening, haul it home, throw the cover on it, and we leave for the Holiday.

Get home tonight, anxious to crank her up and check out shifting the gears.....it cranks, but no start. It was acting like a "no-spark" condition. Keep in mind also that this engine normally starts, cold or hot, with less than 2 seconds on the key. Take the flame arrestor off and cranked it a few times and I see a "gas-mist" spraying up from the carb (engine is open as I haven't put bench / hatches back in yet).

I start checking coil connections, plug-wires, etc...tried it again...same scenario.

Then I shine a flashlight on the new starter motor, and notice something stamped on a sticker that sure doesn't sound "right" to me. "CCW"

Then the no-start, and the gas-spray up from the carburetor made sense to me.

If my thinking is right, this is NOT a CounterClockWise engine, and there ain't no way in hell it's going to start with that starter on it, much less could they have "water-tested it".

Did they install the wrong rotation starter ?

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong.

WKR,
Phil S.

MOP
11-30-2009, 09:14 AM
I had a few of my newbie mechanics do that. What does in many cases happen is turning he engine backwards sucks water up the exhaust and into the engine and it locks up. Talk about eating up profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your engine needs a standard rotation starter the same rotation as an automobile!

Brambo
12-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Check out Arco Marine http://www.arcomarine.com/xhtml/Tech%20Tips.html there are some good Tech PDF's.....