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roadtrip se
09-18-2009, 12:54 PM
So I am sure I am not the only one that has grown accustomed to smelling race gas exhaust fumes in the air while running at AOTH. It's become kind of a tradition...

Well, Potter said that my 500 ECM showed way too much time beating up on my knock sensor and on top ot it we had four of the eight injectors clogged. Not good.

He wants me to monitor my fuel quality a little better and utilize an octane booster to bump octane and clear fuel injectors. Ironically, he is not worried about ethanol, as long as the gas is stabilized during storage like we all do any way.

He recommends the concentrated 104 Octane Booster. I have had others throw out Torco and Lucas products in conversation.

What is the real world scoop? And please, if you don't have any real world knowledge or experience on the topic, please save it for the next "which kind of oil do you use" thread this winter.

Thanks for the feedback...

fogducker III
09-18-2009, 01:04 PM
When I first got the Scorpion up here I was worried because right on the engine it states to use 93 octane fuel............it is not easy to find that around here and damn near impossible to find it at any marine gas dock...

I tried numerous octane "boost" products, using 89 octane fuel when I had to as well as 91 octane fuel which is readily available at my local Shell station......I did not find one bit of difference, not just engine performance but when I changed plugs and oil etc......what it does internally, I don't know, I have not had to tear the engine down yet....:crossfing:

From what I understand, you would have to add an aweful lot of octane boost into your fuel to make any difference.......I just stick with the 91 octane and top up the tank with 89 when out on the water.

BUIZILLA
09-18-2009, 01:12 PM
when you find something that really works...

let us know

otherwise, anything from a bottle is a waste of time

VetteLT193
09-18-2009, 01:19 PM
There are many ways to raise octane. you should do some real searching and educate yourself. If I had to do it on a boat I'd use my own mix because the products are available for very cheap compared to what the pre-bottled stuff costs and it's a whole lot of gas to treat

search for toulene, xylene, methanol, ethanol, MTBE... and I know I'm forgetting a few. that will get you started though.

you are probably going to have to run at least a 10% ratio to do much of anything (couple of octane points).

mrfixxall
09-18-2009, 01:20 PM
your best bet would be to put 5-10 gallons of racing fuel in your tank then top off with 93..

and when the boat sits use seafoam as stablizer instead of the red crap stabal which stains the inside of your injectors red..

BUIZILLA
09-18-2009, 01:23 PM
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

I happen to have an Audi 1.8T Avant Quattro with a chip... excerpt from article below....

>>The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.

VetteLT193
09-18-2009, 01:35 PM
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

I happen to have an Audi 1.8T Avant Quattro with a chip... excerpt from article below....

>>The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.

That's a pretty good read. I didn't know MTBE is now considered bad. It's impossible to keep up with this stuff.

gcarter
09-18-2009, 02:06 PM
That's a pretty good read. I didn't know MTBE is now considered bad. It's impossible to keep up with this stuff.
MTBE is seriously bad, and gets into the ground water.

Last Tango
09-18-2009, 02:35 PM
A couple years ago, on this very forum, we had a long and protracted discussion about this very topic. A couple of the oldtimers suggested toluene and there was much skepticism and plenty of nay-sayers who mostly had never tried the additive. My memory is weak on this subject, but it seemed like the recommended amount was only a few ounces per tank at that time. This article suggests using about 1-2 gallons for every 14-16 gallons. For my boat (52 gal tank), I am not certain I wish to bump up that cost right now, especially with my stock engine configuration and mild usage pattern. But I think it would be trick in my Porsche! And I plan to try it there and see what happens.
Since my engine is bone stock and Mercury recommends 87 octane, and my marina now sells 89 octane that is Certified Ethanol Free, I'm hoping to try a few tanks of that first just to see, before adding toluene.
Hard to do a truly scientific test here since I was using gas station 87 octane for the last few years in the boat because it was on a trailer. Now I dry stack at that same marina with the CEF gas. I don't like to run my gas tank completely dry on the boat before refueling. Also the weather is cooling off... Lots of variables.

I also want to add that the date of the article was almost a decade ago, is in respect to very small displacement 4 and 5 cyl turbo and supercharged engines for the street, vs large displacement V-8's on the water, and even the updates are prior to the recently mandated 10% Ethanol requirement in automotive pump gas, now.

The original question was about octane boosters, but the complaint was really about the quality of the fuel being pumped into the tank.

handfulz28
09-18-2009, 02:45 PM
And please, if you don't have any real world knowledge or experience on the topic, please save it for the next "which kind of oil do you use" thread this winter.

And you're exempt from everybody's $.02 why? :D

Toluene...plus a respirator for everybody behind you...

BUIZILLA
09-18-2009, 03:02 PM
Since my engine is bone stock and Mercury recommends 87 octane, and my marina now sells 89 octane that is Certified Ethanol Free, I'm hoping to try a few tanks of that first just to see, before adding toluene. Mark, I think you should skip the Toluene, and stay with the above program on the boat...

now, as for the Porsche.. :kingme:

as for my previous 15% thought, I started using this about 1973-1974 for race day stuff.... in today's world, with even lower compression than the 70's, a 10% mix would be okay, maybe even down to 5-7%

what I do NOT know yet is how Toluene would settle out with the current E10 crap...

there's some oxygen generating agents out there as well, but the exposed air life is less than 1 hour for crispness

roadtrip se
09-18-2009, 03:34 PM
There are many ways to raise octane. you should do some real searching and educate yourself. If I had to do it on a boat I'd use my own mix because the products are available for very cheap compared to what the pre-bottled stuff costs and it's a whole lot of gas to treat
search for toulene, xylene, methanol, ethanol, MTBE... and I know I'm forgetting a few. that will get you started though.
you are probably going to have to run at least a 10% ratio to do much of anything (couple of octane points).

but I respect real world experience right here. Two cents for the rest of it.

I do have access to race gas here at the pump and pulled off an octane blending chart this afternoon.

I am also considering additives for when I don't have this luxury. The concentrated 104 octane boost claims to raise octane count by up to seven points per bottle for every 25 gallons. The stuff after rebates is about $6 per bottle, so it will be cheaper than blending fuel too. I have been told not to use Torco. So far, none of you believe in the elixer in the bottle. Okay then.

What I am not going to do is start blending my own stuff by looking to rip off a local meth lab or a farmer's fertilizer storage facility.

I'm only looking for a 95 or 96 octane, nothing radical.

Keep it coming. Again real world, not raiding the local high school chemistry lab.

BUIZILLA
09-18-2009, 03:41 PM
The concentrated 104 octane boost claims to raise octane count by up to seven points per bottle for every 25 gallons. that takes 92 to 93.4, at best, for a 50 gallon mix... BFD... then your spark plugs, valve heads, head chambers, exhaust ports, valve and seat faces, and piston tops get this reddish crusty crap permanently imbedded... such a deal :nilly:

The Hedgehog
09-18-2009, 05:46 PM
Is that 7 points or .07 points? 7 points per can would be mathematically impossible. I am sure it works but not at the quantity they suggest.

Real world? I only use 110 like Fixx said. That comes from personal experience, talking to pilots and folks like Eddie Young.

I will be picking up 10 gals of the 110 tomorrow am. It is not that expensive and is PROVEN to work. If the cheap stuff worked the rednecks from McMinnville would buy it by the case for their mud bog engines. They won't touch it. On Fri and Sat they are all going to either Precision machine, Sonoco or the airport to get the real stuff.

The only reason I could imagine using the 104+ stuff is if it had any properties to clean your injectors.

I would think you could get race gas somewhere around Cumberland.

roadtrip se
09-18-2009, 09:17 PM
Thanks guys. We will be blending octanes... screw the boosters.

I've got a fuel injector cleaner that several have recommended here too, so I got that covered.

Done deal.

Conquistador_del_mar
09-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Just this week, I was faced with getting some higher octane fuel for my boat. After calling around, I ended up going the route of MrFix (Mike) and Hedgehog (Bill). I have not heard good things about Octane Boost out of the can so I added 10 gallons of 110 to 25 gallons of 93 - if my math is correct, I ended up with about 98 octane. One of the places I called sells a booster additive which is 40% nitromethane. Supposedly, 1 qt will treat 10 gallons to a 100 octane level. I didn't trust it to be safe or not take on water over a little time since nitro is known for that. Maybe there is a good additive out there, but I have not found it yet. Here is one article you might read - it looks at some of the common additives. Bill

http://volvospeed.com/Reviews/octane_boosters.html

yeller
09-18-2009, 09:57 PM
Thanks guys. We will be blending octanes... screw the boosters.Probably the best choice. I asked the same question 2 or 3 years ago. Buizilla recommend toluene then, but I'm guessing he's changed his mind because of the ethanol that's now in the fuel. All the info I could collect at the time was that a 7 point boost was a 0.7 octane increase or 87 to 87.7.

Tony
09-18-2009, 10:14 PM
I've got a fuel injector cleaner that several have recommended here too, so I got that covered.

What product would this be, Todd?

:beer:

Dr. David Fleming
09-18-2009, 10:33 PM
I don't think there is a more misunderstood part of the gasoline engine than octane. Octane is a test measurement where a test engine is run on heptane or octane and then a test sample of gasoline is run and compared to these to baseline fuels. This test engine is a variable compression engine so the fuel can be tested until it produces knock. Two methods for rating octane commonly used.

The octane rating is a measure of how much compression a given fuel will take before it no longer burns but goes into explosion. It is the explosion that is so dangerous to engines because it beats the parts to pieces. Cranks, rods, pistons none can take prolonged explosion or as it is called in the automotive world - detonation - or engine knock.

ONe of the great breadthroughs in engine design was during WWI when the British were trying to develop an airplane engine with power and the fuel of that time would only take 4:1 compression ratio. A British scientist studied this problem and found that combustion chamber shape was significant. This was Sir Harry Ricardo who developed the wedge shaped chamber with the squish band to help stop the knocking and detonation of the engine - these are significant designs used in engine building today - to keep the piston head clearance in the squish band of the combustion chamber to under .060. This is mechanical octane designed into the engine.

One of the great developments of gasoline in the 1930's automotive and a development that generated great horsepower was the use of ETHEL fuel which is advertising name given to the great fuel component TETRAETHEL LEAD. This is the all time best octane improving ingredient in gasoline and which generated huge development in engine power. Unfortunately it is extremely toxic to handle and is enviornmentally unsafe. For this reason the consumer cannot buy it.

By the way there is no difference in the power in low octane and high octane gasoline - they have the same power or as scientists call it "latient heat." The difference is how much the fuel can be compressed before it goes into detonation - knock.

ONe of the easiest ways to get an increase in fuel octane is, therefore, to put some leaded fuel in unleaded gasoline. Lead is still used in fuel available for racing or for aircraft use. The old 100 octane aircraft fuel is still one of the best and cheapest gasolines available. Because octane in unleaded fuel is created by refining the gasoline to a higher degree, when leaded gasoline is added to unleaded a really high octane fuel is available.

Additives sold to consumers as increasing gasoline octane usually increase the money in the pocket of the person selling them. Racing gasoline is usually used by professional racers who know enough to stay away from messing with chemicals they do not have the education to understand.

Morosso did make a fuel additive for hot rodders which was "anayline oil" and was marginally effective until they were restricted on the chemicals they were using.

Dr. d

Dr. David Fleming
09-18-2009, 10:43 PM
I don't think there is a more misunderstood part of the gasoline engine than octane. Octane is a test measurement where a test engine is run on heptane or octane and then a test sample of gasoline is run and compared to these to baseline fuels. This test engine is a variable compression engine so the fuel can be tested until it produces knock. Two methods for rating octane commonly used.

The octane rating is a measure of how much compression a given fuel will take before it no longer burns but goes into explosion. It is the explosion that is so dangerous to engines because it beats the parts to pieces. Cranks, rods, pistons none can take prolonged explosion or as it is called in the automotive world - detonation - or engine knock.

ONe of the great breadthroughs in engine design was during WWI when the British were trying to develop an airplane engine with power and the fuel of that time would only take 4:1 compression ratio. A British scientist studied this problem and found that combustion chamber shape was significant. This was Sir Harry Ricardo who developed the wedge shaped chamber with the squish band to help stop the knocking and detonation of the engine - these are significant designs used in engine building today - to keep the piston head clearance in the squish band of the combustion chamber to under .060. This is mechanical octane designed into the engine.

One of the great developments of gasoline in the 1930's automotive and a development that generated great horsepower was the use of ETHEL fuel which is advertising name given to the great fuel component TETRAETHEL LEAD. This is the all time best octane improving ingredient in gasoline and which generated huge development in engine power. Unfortunately it is extremely toxic to handle and is enviornmentally unsafe. For this reason the consumer cannot buy it.

By the way there is no difference in the power in low octane and high octane gasoline - they have the same power or as scientists call it "latient heat." The difference is how much the fuel can be compressed before it goes into detonation - knock.

ONe of the easiest ways to get an increase in fuel octane is, therefore, to put some leaded fuel in unleaded gasoline. Lead is still used in fuel available for racing or for aircraft use. The old 100 octane aircraft fuel is still one of the best and cheapest gasolines available. Because octane in unleaded fuel is created by refining the gasoline to a higher degree, when leaded gasoline is added to unleaded a really high octane fuel is available.

Additives sold to consumers as increasing gasoline octane usually increase the money in the pocket of the person selling them. Racing gasoline is usually used by professional racers who know enough to stay away from messing with chemicals they do not have the education to understand.

Morosso did make a fuel additive for hot rodders which was "anayline oil" and was marginally effective until they were restricted on the chemicals they were using.

Dr. d

silverghost
09-18-2009, 11:53 PM
I have never had any success with additives such as 104+
I mix-up Aviation gasoline with the highest pump gas I can buy 93 !
Family members of mine Own & run the Philadelphia Jet Center in NE Phila.
There are always racers & old high compression collector car guys knocking on the door with several five gallon gas cans in hand!
One guy is there every week getting fuel for his 1967 427 High-Compression Vette!
If you dont want to do this change (retard) your dist. timing setting and go up two jet sizes if you are running a carb set-up!
That is what all the 60s-70s muscle car guys are doing !
By going-up two carb jet sizes you reduce the chances of pre-ignition or pinging & engine knock. You will use more fuel by doing this!
It is easier to get away with this Band-Aid fix in a car than in a boat where the engine is under heavy load at all times!
A richer fuel mixture runs cooler combustion chamber temps and is much less likely to pre-ignite!
Keep a low temp thermostat in the engine also!
You fuel injection guys cannot do these things but the ECM computer & knock sensor should be able to adjust to settings your engine will like!
Your performance will however suffer as a result!
As a last resort swap-out your pistons to a lower compression flat top or dished set; or put on thicker head gaskets to lower compression or add heads with larger CC combustion chambers!
Alumium aftermarket heads will also work well to eliminate preignition as their combustion chambers run much cooler! These work very well & with larger ports & valve sizes your overall horsepower will also increase !
Also you FI guys out there should check your knock sensors !
In my 1991 454 SS I found on a scan that my knock sensor was sending a very high incorrect knock count to my ECM.
The Knock sensor, actually a tuned crystal transducer, was failing !
What happens is the rubber that suspends the crystal transducer element dries-out and results in the crystal rattleing in the can.
This sends a wrong signal to the ECM to retard timing because it thinks the engine is knocking when in reality the knock sensor is bad!
Also loose belt drive accessories can also send false signals to a knock sensor!
Failing waterpump or Alt. or steering pump bearings can
send similar false knock signals!
If you do an ECM computer scan and find abnormally high knock counts check that all engine & accessory bolts are tight and the knock sensor itself is still in good shape!
Modern FI engines can usually dial-in themselves to almost any octane you use~even 87 !
Also beware that even if you are paying for 93 octane does not mean you are actually getting 93!
In the Phila area several large well known gasoline retailers were caught passing off 87 octane as much more costly 93!
This was caught by a sting uncovered by a local TV news station!
All three grades 87 89 93 were in actuality only 87 octane !
The state of PA does not police the octane level or quality of fuel sold in our state! The Russian Mob which now controls much of the gasoline sold and transported from New York to Washington DC has been caught doing "midnight dumping" of waste PCBs solvents, & paint thinners from auto body shops, and dumping other illegal chemicals into tanker trucks full of gas to easily get rid of 55 gallon drums of this banned stuff; while collecting big money to properly dispose of this stuff under EPA rules!
The Russian Mob now operating freely in the USA !
What a Country !
God Bless America !
Why are we letting these criminals into the USA in the first place?

If I should suddenly disappear, or have an untimely "Accident" after posting this~ You will know what really happened to me!

Just my two cents!

Conquistador_del_mar
09-19-2009, 12:57 AM
The Russian Mob now in the USA !
What a Country !
If I should disappear or have an untimely "Accident" after posting this~ You will know what really happened!

Just my two cents!

Informative post.
I know this is off the topic, but I thought some of you would get a kick out of it. The Russian mob has been doing business here for quite some time from what I have heard. About 7 years ago, I met a lawyer concerning a lawsuit at my condominium complex where I was treasurer. Somehow we got to talking about insurance scams since we were dealing with a "black mold" lawsuit (total BS in this case). I mentioned hearing about a Russian mob setup in California where they were staging accidents and collecting huge insurance settlements from the insured parties using guys they would pay to be the victims by causing the "accidents". They had their own lawyers, doctors, driver "victims", etc. on their payrolls. The lawyer I met got a big smile on his face and told me he was one of the lawyers who helped shut them down with all the details - fascinating stuff! OK, back to the subject of octane boosters - sorry. Bill

BUIZILLA
09-19-2009, 06:41 AM
a loose or broken motor mount will play havoc... as will a loose coupler spline..

absolutely do NOT overtorque a sensor on installation..., nor do you use anything on the threads..

Dr. David Fleming
09-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Silver Ghost - Ah I knew him well before the Ruskis got him, man what a story!

All this octane talk shows the quality of the Mercruiser MAG and MAG,MPI engines. The "forged" crankshaft, rods and pistons take the beating when the engine deals with problems. "Cast" engine components are standard in automotive engines addapted for marine use and some serve a fairly long life - but if you beat them - use supercharging etc. you can kiss them goodbye. The last few years the Mercruiser 496HO was switched from "forged" components to "cast" and the pistons have been blowing out if used with supercharger etc.

The 454MPI which is 7.4MPI and 496MPI use "cast" components and usually two engine knock sensors, one on each side of the engine - The MAG MPI engines only one sensor. The purpose of this crystal or sensor is to set up a vibration if knocking is present - that is also an electrical signal and shuts down the ignition advance on the engine computor.

I see some folks are supercharging the 7.4MPI in an attempt to get around the small cylinder head ports and mild camshaft. This is really putting a load on the weak link. Boost in this supercharger setup is really limited 3 PSI as is engine life. Usually a supercharged 7.4MPI runs about like a good stock 7.4MAG MPI because you just can't put the power to it.

When it comes to gasoline octane the compression ratio of an engine must be matched to it. All the stuff about cold thermostats, retarded timing, rich fuel mixture just hide the real problem and when the power goes to the engine it won't protect it from the detonation.

ONe other thing from the automotive - if the engine is shot, worn out, the cylinder pressures are so low from the shot condition that the engine may not be sensitive to the poor fuel with high compression. But if you fix the motor with new pistons, good valves etc. the detonation genie will appear!

Dr. d

Last Tango
09-19-2009, 02:48 PM
One more thought about Toluene as an additive.
I stopped by my local Ace Hardware to see what a gallon on that stuff costs in current money. They wanted $19.95. Ace is definitely not The Place for that. I'm certain other places may be cheaper, but by how much? Even at $16.00 a gallon that would effectively add $1.00 per gallon to the current cost of a tankfull in the Porsche (I guess that is still cheap compared to gas a year ago). Unless I am planning to go to an autocross, I won't be pumping up the octane in the Porsche with any of that. We have 93 octane here at the pumps and even one Sunoco in town that sells 98 Lead Free (I haven't checked their prices for that stuff in quite a while).

roadtrip se
09-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Anybody know where to find the race juice around Lake George? Hate to haul a full bag of fuel 16 hours...

BUIZILLA
09-19-2009, 10:02 PM
call Performance Marine in Bolton...

or try here>

Valley Energy Favorite for Oil,Propane,VP Racing Fuels in Columbia, Greene & Dutchess counties (http://www.valleyenergy.com/)

or here>

Insinger Performance Inc. - Methanol, Race Fuels, and Oils (http://www.insingerfuels.com/)

The Hedgehog
09-19-2009, 11:14 PM
call Performance Marine in Bolton...

or try here>

Valley Energy Favorite for Oil,Propane,VP Racing Fuels in Columbia, Greene & Dutchess counties (http://www.valleyenergy.com/)

or here>

Insinger Performance Inc. - Methanol, Race Fuels, and Oils (http://www.insingerfuels.com/)

That is good stuff. I don't even want to know how you come up with things like that on a short notice. Great info.

silverghost
09-20-2009, 01:12 AM
All of the Band-Aid fixes I mentioned will work to control pre-ignition if you are just over the edge on pinging!
Sure it's always best to have proper octane for your engine's compression ratio~ But this is not always possible due to fuel availability!
If you have built a high compression beast or are running high supercharger boost you just may have to hunt for that now elusive high octane fuel.
But if you have a factory built modern marine EFI engine~
The marine engine builders have got you covered.
The Auto & Marine engine builders have already designed their EFI ECM computers to deal with this issue by using knock sensors to tell the ECM onboard computer to retard the engine's timing to just below the pre-ignition level!
This is a Fact !
You can test your EFI engiine's ECM and Knock sensor with this simple test.
Use a scan tool set to engine timing function ~Or a simple timing strobe light on your engine balancer timing marks.
Run engine at 1500 RPM.
Take a 9/16" wrench and sharply tap the engine head, block, or exhaust manifold.
Do not strike these castings too hard or they WILL crack!
You should see the ECM EFI computer back-off the engine timing slightly; then it will slowly return to normal.
The auto, and marine engine builders designed this knock sensor/ECM to retard timing in the event of pre-ignition ping or knock to protect the engine.
They knew that you could not always count on the octane quality of the fuels around the country!
This system was designed to protect your engine from serious pre-ignition knock & pinging damage!
Saying that retarding engine timing does not work is simply not true!
Your car or modern marine engine does just this all day long in a split second! And It does this all the time!
You might never know it is happening.
Brad Hunter

silverghost
09-20-2009, 01:31 AM
Before you run around looking for elusive high octane racing fuel, Av Gas, or Octane boosters be sure to check the basic engine itself!
Do not underestimate what loose bolts and brackets, motor mounts, bad drive damper plates, and old failing ball bearings in pumps, drives,alts, and engine accessories will do to your EFI ECM and it's knock sensor!
Your onboard computer might just think you have a pre-ignition ping or knock when you really do not!
If you see abnormally high knock counts on your engine scan check your entire engine & drive!
It may just be a simple fix!
I have seen many low engine performance problems that can be traced to false knock sensor issues.
These knock sensor crystal transducers hear everything ; not just pinging!
And they do fail !

silverghost
09-20-2009, 01:47 AM
If you have a marine engine that is starting to knock, ping, or showing other signs of the dredded & damaging pre-ignition issues you just may have heavy carbon deposits on the engine's piston tops, combustion chamber, or valves.
This carbon build-up can glow and light-off the incomming fuel/air charge prematurly causing a knock or ping.
This carbon could be caused by bad year-old fuel, water in the fuel caused by condensation, or your fuel dealer's leaking underground tanks, prolonged slow running, or engine storage fogging oil. spark plug miss etc.
There are several over the counter products that can remove much of this carbon without pulling the engine cylinder heads.
One product that I have had much success with in removing this carbon is Valve-Tec carbon remover. Most marine parts stores carry it.
GM & Mercruiser,Volvo as well as outboard mfg also sell simiar products!
Follow instructions on the can & repeat twice.
My Dad's Merc. 454 HO had carbon ping issues this June that were fixed in thirty min. with this treatment!

The Hedgehog
09-20-2009, 09:28 AM
Before you run around looking for elusive high octane racing fuel, Av Gas, or Octane boosters be sure to check the basic engine itself!
Do not underestimate what loose bolts and brackets, motor mounts, bad drive damper plates, and old failing ball bearings in pumps, drives,alts, and engine accessories will do to your EFI ECM and it's knock sensor!
Your onboard computer might just think you have a pre-ignition ping or knock when you really do not!
If you see abnormally high knock counts on your engine scan check your entire engine & drive!
It may just be a simple fix!
I have seen many low engine performance problems that can be traced to false knock sensor issues.
These knock sensor crystal transducers hear everything ; not just pinging!
And they do fail !

Good point on the knock sensors.

I am pretty sure that Tripper's engine is pretty tight right now. All the mounts have probably been well inspected by Ron, Brian and I don't see Trip himself not taking a close look.

Cuda
09-20-2009, 09:41 AM
There are many ways to raise octane. you should do some real searching and educate yourself. If I had to do it on a boat I'd use my own mix because the products are available for very cheap compared to what the pre-bottled stuff costs and it's a whole lot of gas to treat
search for toulene, xylene, methanol, ethanol, MTBE... and I know I'm forgetting a few. that will get you started though.
you are probably going to have to run at least a 10% ratio to do much of anything (couple of octane points).
Toulene is what most of those small bottles of octane boost have in them. I put a gallon in about 100 gallons of three year old gas in the Formula. The engines had 10 to 1 compression, and it didn't knock. Originally the gas was 93 octane, which I always ran in the boat.

BUIZILLA
09-20-2009, 09:49 AM
knock sensors are tuned for specific frequency's... it's VERY important to stay with the frequency that a specific ECM is tuned to listen for... you'll either get fake knocks recorded... or a mountain of melted metal in the tailpipe...

been there, done that... I lost a 14k turbo Buick engine due to this malady once...

roadtrip se
09-20-2009, 10:32 AM
and I will plug this thing in once I run a few hours this season, just for giggles. Can't hurt to check.

One thing I do want to be clear on, my mounts were always tight before, as I checked them every time I ran the boat, and believe me going forward, the thing is bolted in rock solid. Potter did check the sensor during the re-build, so I'll stick with his assumption of crappy fuel.

If anybody thinks they are going to start wrapping on my engine to test the sensor, they will have an appointment with a knuckle sandwich. Interesting idea, but it ain't happening. You want to see a grown man cry, ask to get into m y engine compartment with a hammer.

I am going to try my first tank of blended fuel this week. Potter wants octane, we'll see what it does. Heck, with the octane boost additive crap.
My research on toulene shows that it is a solvent. Not here...

So Tony, onto another additive topic I have been researching. Four of the eight old injectors were clogged, bad fuel again. Several of you have recommended in conversation that I run Lucas Cylinder Conditioner and Fuel Injector cleaner. Others have recommended the new Marine Stabil, that supposedly takes care of the ethanol and has injector cleaner in it. Potter says just use good fuel.

Thoughts?

I will say that I have run the Lucas stuff through my Ex 6.0 and the fuel economy is up 15%. I am impressed...

BTW, I was just commenting to Jill that this IS the kind of information exchange this board was founded on. While some of the topics may have been kicked around before in various flavors, I appreciate the information. Thanks everyone.

BUIZILLA
09-20-2009, 10:49 AM
Todd, Toluene has benzyne, benzyne is also a solvent, gasoline is a solvent.. gasoline has benzyne... make sense yet?

roadtrip se
09-20-2009, 03:14 PM
Todd, Toluene has benzyne, benzyne is also a solvent, gasoline is a solvent.. gasoline has benzyne... make sense yet?

but there is the too much of a good thingy issue too. About a 50-50 shot on what I have read on whether it is the miracle cure or a complete disaster. Not practical for a marine application, expensive, and questionable value. So you try it first, okay? I will be watching.

I got your solvents... Pissed because the local BP was out of the 110 when I drove by today because their supplier stopped carrying it. Oh well,
guess I wait. If they had it, $5.50 a gallon too. For now, I stick with good ole 93.

Why do I get a visual of Buiz driving up at a rally with a VP Racing tanker truck with a side Toulene dispenser on the side. Completely nuts.

roadtrip se
09-20-2009, 03:21 PM
While the mounts were tight before, the damage to the block would indicate an issue somewhere that put a lot of strain on it. Could have included adding a harmonic to it that tripped the sensor..?? I would replace the sensor myself, but I am sure Potter covered the bases...

Who really knows. It was a very small crack and rusty, which implies it was that way for a long time. Potter didn't have a really good theory on why it was there. Casting flaw, freeze damage, or maybe a stress crack. Who really knows.

Good points though, and I am going to scan the ECM before I winterize it just for peace of mind this winter....

silverghost
09-20-2009, 06:23 PM
While we are sidetracked on the subject of Knock Sensors~
A friend of mine replaced the stock Iron/Steel & rubber harmonic balancer damper with a racing "Rattler" damper he got from Jegs performance.
He was pulling his hair out trying to find out why his ECM EFI computer was always dialing his timing back to an extreme retarded setting which ruined his performance.
Finally it was suggesed that the Rattler racing balancer was sending out vibrations that the knock sensor reported as a pre-ignition ping or knock.
The Rattler damper was driving the Knock sensor & EFI ECM computer nuts!
This balancer was pulled & another solid steel racing type was installed.

Problem solved!

By the way~
If you don't want to strike your engine with a wrench just use a large punch & hammer on top of one of the exposed head bolts instead!
Nobody wants a "Knuckle Sandwich " !

BUIZILLA
09-20-2009, 06:47 PM
Todd, why can't you view live knock screens on a scanner when running? like a Diacom? I used a ProLink handheld all the time with my turbo cars... in fact, we used to use a red-yellow-green light little knock monitor thingamajig mounted on the dash... anything 6 knocks or less on a run was great... I've logged several hundred on a run, that's about 100 knocks every SECOND, I might even still have one or two boxes laying around... Dennis Kirban, Kenne Bell, and ATR all used to sell hundreds and hundreds of them... I think Kirban still does... could be usefull here... the dyno I use has one built in..

Dr. David Fleming
09-20-2009, 07:51 PM
Brad,

I still take issue with you on the pre-ignition and detonation. These are really two different issues but related.

Thermal Efficiency and Volumetric Efficiency are two way engineers develop power in engines. Thermal Efficiency is the most heat production from each ignition of fuel mix - this is the compression ratio subject. The higher compression the great the power and the fuel efficiency of the engine because greater heat production is released from the gasoline. As it is gasoline engines only use about 30 percent of the energy in the fuel. Most of the rest is lost in friction or in the cooling or out the exhaust pipe. Increasing the compression is the scientific way to efficiency but there is a limit. That limit is the gasoline. This is why diesel is so efficient because it can tolerate compression as high as 14:1. Engines all need about 10 to 38 degrees of igniton timing regardless of the compression ratio and gasoline. When you try to run a high compression engine on low octane gas by retarding the timing there is a limit to what you can protect by retardation. Otherwise Mercury would use 10:1 or 11:1 compression and just let the ECM deal with it - won't work. You must match the fuel and compression this is why 8.75:1 is common in Marine and 9.4 in automotive - to cover the marine fuel. Racing gas can make 11:1 or 12:1 compression available as is common in high power drag cars.

By the way the other measurment - Volumetric Efficiency is the one most people mess with - this is the supercharger, bigger camshaft, larger valves big carburator, header exhaust large engine displacement. Volumetric Efficiency is the art of burning more gasoline by volume in a given period of time - sucking it down - suck that tank dry and get all that heat power. It is a lot easier to do that changing pistons and gasoline octane which increase power and fuel efficiency.

Dr. d

farmer tx
09-20-2009, 07:58 PM
For what it's worth I use this stuff. You guys with the fancy sensors may not be able to run it, I don't know.

http://www.kemcooil.com/categories.php

BUIZILLA
09-20-2009, 08:02 PM
This is why diesel is so efficient because it can tolerate compression as high as 14:1. actually, that's not right, diesels START higher than that number, and go as high as 22-1

The Hedgehog
09-20-2009, 08:23 PM
Todd, why can't you view live knock screens on a scanner when running? like a Diacom? I used a ProLink handheld all the time with my turbo cars... in fact, we used to use a red-yellow-green light little knock monitor thingamajig mounted on the dash... anything 6 knocks or less on a run was great... I've logged several hundred on a run, that's about 100 knocks every SECOND, I might even still have one or two boxes laying around... Dennis Kirban, Kenne Bell, and ATR all used to sell hundreds and hundreds of them... I think Kirban still does... could be usefull here... the dyno I use has one built in..

You can view knock real time with the MEFI. You will be driving around with a laptop but it is doable. I think you can actually get knock gauges.

A2VeeDub
09-21-2009, 09:14 AM
actually, that's not right, diesels START higher than that number, and go as high as 22-1


Your right on that one. Non-turbo diesels run in the low 20's and the tubo apps usually drop into the high teens. I actually turboed a stock non-turbo diesel in an old VW and left the compression at the stock 21-1 and melted the pistons and part of the aluminum head. First time I had seen a detonation related failure in diesel.

Some Sunoco stations sell 100 Octane on pump. I haven't bought it in a while. Last time was a few years before gas shot up above $2/gal. Then it was around $4.65/gal. We would just fill up on that stuff and crank up the timing and boost for the test and tune nights at the track on Friday's. I am not positive any of them still sell it with what the price would probably be now.

A2VeeDub
09-21-2009, 09:23 AM
Anyone ever looked into Methanol/Water injection? I haven't really messed with it much, but it is becoming popular real quick in the forced induction world. A lot of guys are running it instead of intercooling on drag cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

BUIZILLA
09-21-2009, 09:35 AM
I ran alky injection back in the 90's on my turbo Buick's... if set up right it can be very good, in fact we had it dialed in soooo good we actually created an alky race class just for this setup, it really really works.... pretty funny when every Walgreens in every town we raced in ran out of rubbing alchohol on every race weekend :kingme: I still laugh at racers 6-10 deep at the checkout counters... Crower used to push a water injec sytem back in the late 70's with a special cam package...

BigGrizzly
09-21-2009, 10:55 AM
Lets get a few things straight first. On Todd's hp500 he did not use 93 in it If I remember it was 87 and or 89. This and the loose mount caused the knock issue. Next the ECM on that engine is a Dumb computer it has no way of monitoring the engine except by Knock which is hardly enough. the race cars have o2 sensor and a very complex computer, at leas the Honda's do, I know this from being there. Even the racing motorcycles are way out there. As for additives well, none live up to the claims. Putting lead in a today's engine is a bad thing. We have don this and it contaminates the oil and causes a sludge type thing shown in oil tests. I went all through this whole thing on my engine twice. I run 9.5 compression without any issues on 93 octane. I some times usr a octane booster, but not as a boster but as a cleaning agent. Toluene, if done right is not a bad thing. I do have access to TEL and it was not a good result in the engine. DR Flemming, Merc an not use a variable ECM because it has no O2 sensor in it which is the main issue in most Marine engines. The first successful O2 sensor use in a production Marine engine was done by Honda. We even had issues until we designed one to work in the wet environment. Granted I did my engine differently, I built it around the application, which includes the availability of fuel. I am tired of carrying around special fuel and/or additives. In my case bad fuel can be a real expensive proposition. All this said, when you travel 900+ miles to an event with special fuel, then run out you park it-not me Wanda. In 8 years I did not finish two events and were because of a transmission and a starter motor.

Dr. David Fleming
09-21-2009, 11:36 AM
Sorry about the diesel compression as 14:1 this was a typo 22:1 is correct.

Dr. d