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View Full Version : chine, out of control feeling, 22C



Bamboo Loui
09-03-2009, 06:21 PM
Hi guys, I wrote in a couple of threads that were not related to performance that I felt a little -- OK-- alot- out of control with my 05 22C 496/425 classic. I am a newbie to say the least, but I received a couple of suggestions from Road trip se (Todd ) and from Scot, encouragement from Carl C. The suggestions were to try a 4 blade prop--- or another prop than what I had.
Here were my symptons---- at any speed or rpm, I had to use the tabs alot -- and I mean alot-to keep her from porposing--- and at WOT she would dance in a way that made me feel totally out of control. I was bouncing from the the throttle to the trim to the tabs while watching where I was going-- everything was happening too fast for me to keep her under control.
At 5150rpm I was indicating on the Livorsi speedo 73 mph. But this was totally white knuckles--- and any rider was holding on to anything they could hold to. she as dancing like crazy.

I talked with the previous owner and he said the boat was extremely tab sensitive-- Todd had ridden in the boat and confirmed the previous owner was constantly working the tabs. Today I took her out with the new prop-- I started with the tabs all the way up. As I accelerated I knew I had to adjust the tab(s) to adjust for my weight or the tork of the engine-- just a couple of taps on the tab button-- she cruised at 30-40- 50 with very gentle porpoising- almost soothing--
I could get rid of the porpoising with a little throttle or change in the trim.
Once rounding the end of the lake I opened her up a little-- went to 60, a little porpoise but it went away quickly with a little throttle and trim- half way accross the lake I opened her up a little and started to trim her up. I could not believe it-- no problems- no dancing, just wonderful sound and feeling of acceleration. About a quarter of a mile from the end of the lake I went B*lls out with full trim and WOT and hit 5k rpm and indicated 76mph. No chining what so ever-- a little left to right nose, but that was it.

I talked with Brad at BBLADES and he thinks we can do a little with the nose moving. He thinks we can maybe improve speed without loosing the stability. Right now I am extremely happy. I am writing this for all the guys who feel a little out of control-- the answer for me was a new prop.

Don't be afraid to try it- could do wonders or maybe not, but it is worth a try.

For next year, I am thinking hyd steering and much more prop work.
What a great day!!!!!!!!!!

thanks guys for your help!!!

BUIZILLA
09-03-2009, 06:32 PM
what prop is on it now?

VetteLT193
09-03-2009, 06:33 PM
Fixxall has a prop guy that I plan on sending my props to... maybe this winter when I'm not using it as much. Less money.

Bamboo Loui
09-03-2009, 06:43 PM
Bravo 1 26p. Talking with Brad we may change it to a 27 with some other little changes to take out some of the left- right at WOT. Any little change for the good is great, but I am still thinking of Hyd steering this winter.

Pismo
09-03-2009, 07:11 PM
The 22 seems happiest around 60-65mph then it starts to get crazier. Hydraulic steering will certainly help. Do you have any slop in the steering now? Tighten those two nuts on the top front of the gimbal ring, do it every season to help keep things tight. FWIW I use a MPlus 25", no tabs, lots of trim at top speed and she will almost settle in but still needs lots of steering input. Tabs, despite their reputation, don't always make things steadier, they often make it more reactive or over-reactive. Right around 75mph. I have never tried a 4 blade.

Seat time will gain you a great deal. Try 60-65 first then head up. She likes to sway and roll on that round keel.

Good luck, get some more seat time in before spending a lot.

Bamboo Loui
09-03-2009, 07:38 PM
Thanks Pismo-- seat time is definately needed now. she is a totally different boat than last week-- better- much better. Just think- before the new prop, I was messing with the tabs all the time- today, really- just a couple of bumps to balance the weight or the torque- after that nothing- tabs were not all the way up at WOT ( couple of bumps from up on one) and I think I would have had a little more of the front walking- but really- I can not say enough about the difference. This boat had every rider and myself white knuckled way before WOT- and at WOT- WOW!! scary-- even dangerous in my mind. Now I am faster and way more stable-- I will check tomorrow on your suggestions and thanks for those. Looking forward to learning lots more.
DougL

Bamboo Loui
09-03-2009, 07:42 PM
Pismo-- my first prop was a MPlus 25

dougL

Carl C
09-03-2009, 09:12 PM
A lot of us are running Bravo 1s. Mine is a BBlades 30p. The 25 M+ is the factory supplied prop for the HO '05 22C. You should not have had those problems with that prop. I didn't. It sounds like it is running right where it should be now though.

MOP
09-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Find the torque spec for the tiller nuts, it is not good to ever tighten them.

JustMercMe
09-04-2009, 07:55 AM
You deffinately have to work the tabs at lower speeds....When you get into it just bump the tabs and the trim up...It will go away..Mine does the same thing...

I'm actually running a 27 Mirage plus @ around 5 grand...speed is 75-76 according to the Livorsi GPS guage. I've tried a 28 Bravo 1 and it torques a lot (tilts the boat to one side) at lower speeds and I lose a lil top end....Great mid range prop though.

Bamboo Loui
09-04-2009, 08:30 AM
Brad at BBlades was thinking about taking me to a 28 since I hit 5k in just 50-100yds from indicated 60, but I told him I thought getting some seat time and finding out if the boat will go 5100 or better with this set up before we do anything else. If I hit 5150 I may try the 28 or may have the prop fine tuned alittle after I get to know it. Maybe lab it to a 27 or add some cup or flair depending on what I find- problem for me is I am slow at things- I tend to drive it and then think about the experience to see if I can figure somme things out myself-- like how am I affecting the boat-- example, as I mentioned I did bump the tab to balance the additional torque-- or my weight, but I do not remember ever really pulling the tabs all the way up once I was on it-- can one tab lowered-even slightly- cause or contribute to the left-right at WOT?
After I check her out today to check if everything is tight I am going back out and learn some more.. JustMercMe- You are about one thing-- MID RANGE IS GREAT!

Air 22
09-04-2009, 09:34 PM
FWIW...It Brett Anderson @ BBlades(owner)...not Brad...:nilly:

Brett will set you right...great guy:yes:...he will get your boat where u want it based on the info you give him...He dialed our 22C in as well..running a labbed Bravo 28 w HP500EFI 80-81GPS:)

Carl C
09-04-2009, 09:54 PM
For top speed you need to raise both tabs and trim the drive out enough to keep the boat level.

MOP
09-04-2009, 10:11 PM
Carl you trim to lift the bow decreasing wetted surface, a flat boat is a slow boat!

Air 22
09-04-2009, 10:16 PM
a flat boat is a slow boat!


Umm...not always...see pic:wink:...


I believe Carl means running level on the last 2-3 feet of the hull(running surface)...:)

Carl C
09-05-2009, 06:54 AM
Umm...not always...see pic:wink:...


I believe Carl means running level on the last 2-3 feet of the hull(running surface)...:)

Yes, I mean flat side to side. With the prop shaft even with the hull the boat will list to port. positive trim raises the bow and off-sets the prop torque so the port tab can be raised completely. More trim increases speed but can increase squirelliness (is that a word?). I can trim mine to the point that my shorty stops getting sufficient water. Just below that is the sweet spot. All other times except flat out I am dragging a little port tab to keep the boat from listing. On rough Great Lakes water I sometimes drop both tabs to help keep the boat running flat but the port tab will be lower.

Bamboo Loui
09-05-2009, 08:16 AM
FWIW...It Brett Anderson @ BBlades(owner)...not Brad...:nilly:

Brett will set you right...great guy:yes:...he will get your boat where u want it based on the info you give him...He dialed our 22C in as well..running a labbed Bravo 28 w HP500EFI 80-81GPS:)

I do not think I had the pleasure of talking ot Brett, Brad always discussed my file with "the Boss" before getting back to me. I could be wrong but I do not think so.

Took her out to play yesterday to try some new things with this new prop- ran her without tabs at all. Still porpoising at mid range which is OK and much improved over the MP and was really just a learning experience.
Left the tabs up and started to accelerate and trim and the porpoising increased a little until she settled in a little with lowering the trim -- again this was still upper mid range BECAUSE-- as I was accelerating I happened to notice our local Sherriffs department with either radar or field glasses on me-- he was tucked in between two piers-- ruined my testing day. Probably won't get too much chance with all the labor day visiters and general last weekend of the summer activities on the lake. -- maybe Monday after everyone goes home.

Carl C
09-05-2009, 08:23 AM
Brett will talk to you if you ask for him. Before I plane out I lower my drive all the way and drop the port tab for 4 seconds (no indicators). This gets the boat running flat. After planing the drive starts to come up right away and I adjust the port tab to keep it flat. For all out speed runs I go back and forth between the tab and trim switches until the tab is all the way up.

Bamboo Loui
09-05-2009, 08:35 AM
Yes, I mean flat side to side. With the prop shaft even with the hull the boat will list to port. positive trim raises the bow and off-sets the prop torque so the port tab can be raised completely. More trim increases speed but can increase squirelliness (is that a word?). I can trim mine to the point that my shorty stops getting sufficient water. Just below that is the sweet spot. All other times except flat out I am dragging a little port tab to keep the boat from listing. On rough Great Lakes water I sometimes drop both tabs to help keep the boat running flat but the port tab will be lower.

carl- you explained my first post better than I did-- on the first day out at WOT I was dragging just the port tab one-maybe two bumps and she ran real flat at near full trim--probably had another trim bump left there, maybe two.
I brought her to shore and there is a little slop or play in the steering- I think some service or going Hyd will fix this as I have Bblades tune the prop further:crossfing:

Air 22
09-05-2009, 08:59 AM
Get the Full Hyd Steering soon...@ 70+ you really need to consider it...plus the boat will settle down:wink:..not to mention the safety factor:yes:. You loose steering now @ those speeds your and luck will run out:eek:

Bamboo Loui
09-05-2009, 09:43 AM
Brett will talk to you if you ask for him. Before I plane out I lower my drive all the way and drop the port tab for 4 seconds (no indicators). This gets the boat running flat. After planing the drive starts to come up right away and I adjust the port tab to keep it flat. For all out speed runs I go back and forth between the tab and trim switches until the tab is all the way up.

That is what I was doing before the new prop-- except I often had to play with both tabs-- mostly but not exclusively because there would be a rider. I have not had a rider with the new prop yet, but I bet it will be better than before. Gets to be alot of work and concentration on a lake only 2 miles long with traffic. with the old prop it was heart pumping scary. I'll try your combo if the S-DEPARTMENT isn't out- thanks for the input.:)

Bamboo Loui
09-05-2009, 09:51 AM
Get the Full Hyd Steering soon...@ 70+ you really need to consider it...plus the boat will settle down:wink:..not to mention the safety factor:yes:. You loose steering now @ those speeds your and luck will run out:eek:

Love the Zeiger- that is what is in the plan. Kind of a catch 22- trying to get more info on the new prop for tuning, yet the info will change after the steering is done-- probably should just be careful until the steering is on and then do the prop work in the spring-- or winter if I take her to Northern florida this winter for a few months. Have asked Zeiger if they had a preferred rigger in Michigan- nothing.

Perhaps if some michigan guys read this they could recomend someone. My local guy is nice BUT!

oledawg
09-05-2009, 09:48 PM
Don't feel bad, I am 454 CC owner and I bought a '88 Donzi Classic 22 this week and got it wet yesterday, definitely a different experience! The CC is for riding, the Donzi ya gotta drive. The trim tabs are a science for sure, I was rolling along in 2 foot waves at about 65 when all of a sudden the boat rolled to the left sort of on its side and I thought OK, I'm toast, but I held steady on the wheel and throttle, read, no sudden moves, and it pulled back straight. Got a real pucker on that one, held it down the rest of the day. This is a boat that I bought on eBay and am still trying to figure out where everything is, and what I am going to have to fix. A blast to drive, but really scary when you are used to something that is rock solid no matter what, albeit much slower, ie less than 50mph. This Donzi is a dancer!:cool!:

Bamboo Loui
09-06-2009, 07:15 AM
yesterday the lake watchcop left mid afternoon after the lake settled down a little and 90% of the wakeboarders and jetskis were off. The other 22c that I have seen a couple of times was out running wide open which meant to me it was safe to go out. I had spoken to this guy before- nice guy, just bought the boat in the spring from his brother in law- either an 89 or 99 with a 454 and alot of engine work-- sometimes he has to put gas in the carb to start it. when he stopped by earlier in the year we discussed tabs-- he said he had never used them as he didn't know how they worked so he just used the trim-- he always ran smooth. A friend of mine and I went out and the Blue boat dropped his wife off and came back out. The water was rough from the days activities and I was running the straights at around 70 indicated but with a rider I was on the tabs again:confused: alot -just like before the prop change. I never could get above the 70 mark or 4800 and the blue boat literally flew by me- he was stable as could be while I was really working, my rider noticed as well that he was just driving by- no chine, no nothing - just pure flat speed-effortless.:confused:
We are out at a function today- hope he is around tomorrow for a one on one plus I would like to ride in that boat to see what the difference is.:embarasse

Air 22
09-06-2009, 08:08 AM
Love the Zeiger- that is what is in the plan. Kind of a catch 22- trying to get more info on the new prop for tuning, yet the info will change after the steering is done-- probably should just be careful until the steering is on and then do the prop work in the spring-- or winter if I take her to Northern florida this winter for a few months. Have asked Zeiger if they had a preferred rigger in Michigan- nothing.

Perhaps if some michigan guys read this they could recomend someone. My local guy is nice BUT!


Ck with Brian41 on this site....he does great work and is in Michigan:cool: Click on link below..select the Contact info tab and send him a message!

http://www.donzi.net/forums/member.php?u=8383

Bamboo Loui
09-06-2009, 08:30 AM
Thanks Air- will do

Doug

Bamboo Loui
09-06-2009, 09:39 AM
on the question of trim-- I go by my indicator when it is real busy out- no time to look around to see for indication. are all indicators about the same for stock Bennetts? I was running a bit over half way up-- been thinking about yesterday- I think I was over driving the boat- throttled up and trimmed up and them tried to drive by jumping from tabs to trim. I had started right and tabbed for the weight difference of having the rider, but left the tabs there until wide open-- I think I was driving her backwards-- should have raised the tabs slowly earlier as I was trimming and increasing the throttle? or I just plain panicked as my butt was being handed to me:nilly:

Air 22
09-06-2009, 10:04 AM
on the question of trim-- I go by my indicator when it is real busy out- no time to look around to see for indication. are all indicators about the same for stock Bennetts? I was running a bit over half way up-- been thinking about yesterday- I think I was over driving the boat- throttled up and trimmed up and them tried to drive by jumping from tabs to trim. I had started right and tabbed for the weight difference of having the rider, but left the tabs there until wide open-- I think I was driving her backwards-- should have raised the tabs slowly earlier as I was trimming and increasing the throttle? or I just plain panicked as my butt was being handed to me:nilly:


Doug...Usually... 22C's dont require tab's running WOT...sounds like u may be over complicating the whole process....try leaving the tabs up(all the way up)... adjust the drive trim only to find the sweet spot...bump the drive up and down in small amounts to make adjustments when your near WOT....driving a 22C WOT takes seat time. Your not going to learn it in one or two outings....play with it...have fun...if you have the opportunity to have an experienced driver drive your boat...or ride in their's...try that....but in the end you know your boat...seat time, varied water conditions and trying different props are key...as you experience more seat time...you will become more comfortable with your boat.:wink:... Go have some fun and enjoy your boat...:beer:

Bamboo Loui
09-06-2009, 10:24 AM
Doug...Usually... 22C's dont require tab's running WOT...sounds like u may be over complicating the whole process....try leaving the tabs up(all the way up)... adjust the drive trim only to find the sweet spot...bump the drive up and down in small amounts to make adjustments when your near WOT....driving a 22C WOT takes seat time. Your not going to learn it in one or two outings....play with it...have fun...if you have the opportunity to have an experienced driver drive your boat...or ride in their's...try that....but in the end you know your boat...seat time, varied water conditions and trying different props are key...as you experience more seat time...you will become more comfortable with your boat.:wink:... Go have some fun and enjoy your boat...:beer:

Air-- I agree - the more I think about it I was over complicating it--I should have let the boat do her stuff- should have eased into it more and played with the throttle and trim- still wonder if I am letting her trim out enough to run as flat as she could 1/2 may not be enough for her specially with two people-- more seat tim tomorrow-maybe get a ride in the guys boat that handed me my butt- Thanks

Pismo
09-06-2009, 11:06 AM
Well, not to burst anyone's bubble here, but some 22's require no tabs and MORE trim to eliminate the bobble..


I agree...Likes lots of trim at high speed.

Carl C
09-06-2009, 02:52 PM
I agree...Likes lots of trim at high speed.

The Imco shorty loses water pressure at high trim.......:nilly:

Bamboo Loui
09-06-2009, 06:17 PM
Put the tabs ALL the way up. If the trailing edge is not higher than the leading, do a search for a thread on modifying them. Once they are out of the way, pull the fuse out, toss it in the lake. Then go enjoy learning how to run it sans training wheels :) :)

Thanks----I think I have the scoop on bringing ths tabs up further by breaking off the end stop.-- understand Hydrualics pretty good. I will do that after I try running with them full up by the control- I think I can do the mod while the boat is is the lake without ever getting any (Al Gore would be proud)oil in the water-- but need to do it on a calm day.

In south west Michigan weather is supposed to be crappy tomorrow, but will give it a try-- if I can't, Thursday will be my first chance.

Air 22
09-06-2009, 06:56 PM
Air-- I agree - the more I think about it I was over complicating it--I should have let the boat do her stuff- should have eased into it more and played with the throttle and trim- still wonder if I am letting her trim out enough to run as flat as she could 1/2 may not be enough for her specially with two people-- more seat tim tomorrow-maybe get a ride in the guys boat that handed me my butt- Thanks


Make sure your trim gauge is accurate....they do falter now and then...

With your boat on trailer...level....trim the drive level with the bottom of your hull(running surface-last2-3ft)...use a straight edge from the bottom of your hull accross to the drive cavitation plates(flat area under lifting rams)...then note the needle on your drive gauge....that is neutral trim...make note of it..so when ur running U know where the drive actually is:wink:

Your drive trim can be adjusted if needed...but 1st things first...good luck...have fun...:pimp:

Bamboo Loui
09-07-2009, 07:53 AM
Thanks guys- today is labor day and the transients will be pulling boats and docks out so no fun at the access. If rain doesn't show up I'll just have some fun and do the work next weekend. Gonna try tabs all up and trim to the heavens.

Air- Brian PMd me and I will give him a cal re Zeiger instal this week.

thanks to all -- I'll write if things are interestingly better today-- have to try it with and without rider

the other DougL

Bamboo Loui
09-07-2009, 08:37 AM
Tabs up: check

Trim to the heavens: Wrong..

Trim is kinda like tequila shots. In moderation, a good thing. Too much, the results ain't pretty. Run without the tabs, get the feel for the boat. You should be able to feel it loosening up as you trim, but you do not want to break it free. I reccomend just tapping the trim switch vs push n hold. You go up a step at a time, get the feel for that, then go up another step..

And the best trim indicator is your keester...

Sorry- I should have described it better- been on the lake forever but the classic is a new animal to me - I sure would do things incrementally- worked pretty good at the beginning of the week- took things slow and got settle at speeds with the trim and throttle but I was dragging the port tab a little- by the Heavens I was referring to my wondering if I was under trimmed a little - My keetster wan't puckering-- quite:wink:
I sure have appreciated everyones input:yes: thanks.

Air 22
09-07-2009, 10:22 PM
Like there is no replacement for displacement...there is no replacement for "Keester time" other than more "Keester time":nilly: ....it takes time and patience to run a 22C to its potential:wink:...but thats some of the fun....learning your boat...its potential... and your's as a driver...Have fun:)...but most of all be SAFE and take your time!:wink:

BigGrizzly
09-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Let me jump inhere on the prop. There4 is no way you will turn a 28 unloess they change the pitch to less. Now the rest is seat time. You NEED to get that before spending money on props.

MOP
09-08-2009, 03:22 PM
I second Scott on the trim issue, I can remember when trim was first offered. So I have been playing with it for many years, one of the first things I did on my 22 was to remove the trim gauge. Trim is mostly all feel and is different depending on sea conditions, so the gauge in my eyes is only a general indicator. I would much rather have oil temp, water pressure or something else useful trim gauges are like speedometers close but no cigar!

roadtrip se
09-08-2009, 08:50 PM
Looks like you are getting a chance to run the boat out and get a better feel for it Doug. Good deal.

Before commiting to any lab work, I would get the steering done and try some more props. The labbing should be done when you find something that is close and you want to tune it to run a little better. I would try the 28, but I doubt you can turn it as Griz said.

I would also try a Hydro Q4 and a Precision TXP, before commiting to a specific prop and going the lab route.

Get the steering done at Brian's and then plan on bringing it down to AOTH for some running and prop testing in the Spring. Plenty of experience and props to try at the run!

BigGrizzly
09-09-2009, 09:18 AM
I am with trip on this one. I Will be at Cumberland with prop testing. In my case after I put steering I had to do the prop thing all over again. So don't waste money on props now. Remember Labbing is not always the best thing. there are several boats that noticed no difference between some labbed props and some out of the box prop. You see like trim different boats react differently to props. Some props may be a tad faster but come unglued without warning. This is not a nice place to be. Most of the fast guys have all experienced this.

Bamboo Loui
09-09-2009, 11:39 AM
Trip- BigGriz,MOP,AIR-- thanks to all- Just spoke to Brian41 at noon. I am planning on stopping to see him tonight or tomorrow morning on my way home from Canada-- Maybe I'll get to meet Trip before he gets his boat in the water.
Will get some more seat time I hope from Thursday afternoon thru Sunday or Monday weather permitting.
If wife is permitting!! :eek:-- I may have the boat to Brian for the steering in a week and a half and then hope for more seat time with the steering before I have to take her out of the water for the season.

I'm listening to you regarding the prop testing. I will leave the Bravo one on until Cumberland-- going to need to get to know the boat with the new steering before doing more anyway. Will have Brian do the tab work while he has it and he is going to do a general routine check on the boat while it is there. If you have any suggestions let me know and I will add it to the work order.
Trip if you still have my cell# let me know what time uoi might be at Brians - If I need to sign a confidentiality agreement I can bring one:wink:
Doug L the other DougL

Pismo
09-10-2009, 08:29 AM
Electric trims gauges are shaky at best, mechanical are good but the same electric trim gauge will show two different readings at the same trim spot regularly so I agree, go by feel and sound. As far as trim goes, all boats are different, some like trim others don't. The 22 to get max speed, not max control, wants lots of trim.

BigGrizzly
09-10-2009, 10:08 AM
Trust me on this we on the board have a LOT more experience with props on that boat then BBlades. Put the brakes on a labbed prop at this time and wait. Seat time, seat time and more seat time, is what you need. I don't care if you were borm in the water and had a hundred boats this is different. I have been running Donzi s since 1966 and still haven't got it all figured out. I do prop testing for several companies and I still get surprises. Just last week I got a prop surprise on my own boat.

Bamboo Loui
09-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Electric trims gauges are shaky at best, mechanical are good but the same electric trim gauge will show two different readings at the same trim spot regularly so I agree, go by feel and sound. As far as trim goes, all boats are different, some like trim others don't. The 22 to get max speed, not max control, wants lots of trim.

Thanks Pismo-- my thinking is this-- just more seat time- + getting the steering done- stopped by Brian41s place today-- saw Road Trips boat and discussed my boat-- I am not going to worry so much about what the guage has to say- I am going to learn the boat as best I can -- and then relearn it after the steering is put in.:)

Bamboo Loui
09-10-2009, 05:14 PM
Trust me on this we on the board have a LOT more experience with props on that boat then BBlades. Put the brakes on a labbed prop at this time and wait. Seat time, seat time and more seat time, is what you need. I don't care if you were borm in the water and had a hundred boats this is different. I have been running Donzi s since 1966 and still haven't got it all figured out. I do prop testing for several companies and I still get surprises. Just last week I got a prop surprise on my own boat.

I do trust the guys on this site-- at least a few-- OK more than a few- so far I have learned more than I expected - I truly respect much of the info you all are so kind to give me-

Griz-- I was on this site as a guest for a long time before I became a member- grateful for your interest and input- I have wanted a Donzi since I can remember-- at 57 I'm still glad that I bought one. It sure is an exciting experience. I am planning to get as much seat time as possible these last few months before and after I have Brian put the full Hyd steering in-

My wife and I will be at the AOTH IN 010- I will worry about props then thanks to your previous note.

I can't tell you all how great it is to have people who actually care about how another Donzi-- or other -- is doing- You guys are great.

as I mentioned, I stopped by Brian’s and got a peek at the flower pot-- I am in great envy of RT-- and Brian is a great guy-- thanks Air for the contact.

If you guys don't mind-- I will keep writing as I learn before and after the steering change--- maybe it will help another newbie

Thanks guys

PROPS ARE ON HOLD!!!

The other DougL

yeller
09-12-2009, 03:32 PM
Put the tabs ALL the way up. If the trailing edge is not higher than the leading, do a search for a thread on modifying them. Once they are out of the way, pull the fuse out, toss it in the lake. Then go enjoy learning how to run it sans training wheels :) :)MadPoodle......you trying to kill the guy. :wink: You can't get away with that on the newer boats. I took that advice when I first got mine and soiled a perfectly good pair of shorts.

The other 22c that I have seen a couple of times was out running wide open which meant to me it was safe to go out. I had spoken to this guy before- nice guy, just bought the boat in the spring from his brother in law- either an 89 or 99 with a 454 and alot of engine work-- sometimes he has to put gas in the carb to start it. when he stopped by earlier in the year we discussed tabs-- he said he had never used them as he didn't know how they worked so he just used the trim-- he always ran smooth. A friend of mine and I went out and the Blue boat dropped his wife off and came back out. The water was rough from the days activities and I was running the straights at around 70 indicated but with a rider I was on the tabs again:confused: alot -just like before the prop change. I never could get above the 70 mark or 4800 and the blue boat literally flew by me- he was stable as could be while I was really working...I don't know what the real difference is, but the older boats aren't as difficult to drive as the new ones. I tried a bunch of different props and my 04 still likes to porpoise and do a funky nose dance at high speeds. 4 blades seem to be worse on my boat. The Mirage + has been the best prop to date. That's opposite from what most on this board have found. I've found some guys with similar year boats have the same problem as me, and others don't. As far as I know Donzi has two molds for the 22 and one is supposedly better than the other. I've come to the conclusion that I need to try blueprinting the bottom.

BUIZILLA
09-12-2009, 03:51 PM
I can tell you Sue's clone boat to yours loved the 24 Turbo... ask Clifff.. WFO, trimmed up, and no hands, for at least a mile or more at one point...... not as much as a burble in attitude.. :shades:

BigGrizzly
09-13-2009, 09:00 AM
Props on hold- good idea. Now the main hull difference between the old and new is the reverse chine on the newer boats. this is to lift the boat and let it plane at slower speeds. As for learning the boat Poodle is right on the mark. On any boat I do not use tabs unless I absolutely have to. Yeller, you had an issue with the Hydro, I stayed almost out of that conversation because we were going to do it right, now we will have the chance at PK. On my boat I have found only two 4 blades that are acceptable the Fusion and the New OXP. All that being said Bamboo, wait until the steering is on before anything else is done. Only make ONE change at a time period. That way you know what caused the difference, the primary rule. You only have a short time left this season use it.

Carl C
09-13-2009, 09:23 AM
I need to plane out with full negative trim and if I don't have a little port tab down the boat lists heavily, to the point of being dangerous. I would rather use training wheels than drive the boat with a list and the list only goes away with quite a bit of positive trim. That is only possible on fairly flat water. It seems these boats are all different:confused:. The two mold hypothesis is interesting.

BigGrizzly
09-13-2009, 09:30 AM
Poodle, can I help it if my change is bigger then most.

BigGrizzly
09-13-2009, 09:57 AM
Carl, you have a shortie, a big difference, trust me.

oledawg
09-13-2009, 10:02 AM
Been following this thread and have to say that I have actually learned a lot, which I have also put to use. Great run at Lake Tillery yesterday, which is a MC and CC lake, which means that a Donzi C22 gets a lot of attention. Especially at 60+ mph ( done carefully, safely, of course ). Waves were in the 1-2 range and I didn't feel a thing, boat was extremely stable when trimmed out properly.

Only downside was perhaps from expecting the boat to best 70 as the previous owner said that it would do. Not that I needed to, but just wanted to see if it would. Used my Garmin Nuvi to make sure that speed was accurate so perhaps VDO speedo was a little optimistic for the prior owner! Actually the best ride was at about 45 mph turning about 2800 rpm. Smell the roses time!

Again, great tips, great ride! :cool!:

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 10:03 AM
Thanks all again-- she is going in for steering on the 21st. at the same time -at the suggestion of one of the members there is going to be some hull checking-- severe hook on the left is what I was told and he has been on the boat.
The tabs will be checked to see if I can get some more retaction, and will check the trim gauge for accuracy or if I have some negative trim at full trim down. Will be taking her out today and I will try to get 3-4 hrs trying different things and seeing what results I get.
I can say that with the Bavo1 I did not really have to use the tabs much when I was alone-- I did drag the port tab a little because my boat like Carls' seems to list at and before plane.-- But I will try with and with out the port tab and I will really work hard on the throttle trim combo. I am hoping for full up on the tabs and proper trim to get the bow up to see how she handles-- of course after the steering I will be back at it again relearning--unles the hook is there and real bad. If that is the case I might as well just get the work done now and take her to Florida when she is done. The will be the real test then-- unfamiliar water in a new (different) boat-- Whats close to Tallahassee for good water in the winter?

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 10:20 AM
Props on hold- good idea. Now the main hull difference between the old and new is the reverse chine on the newer boats. this is to lift the boat and let it plane at slower speeds. As for learning the boat Poodle is right on the mark. On any boat I do not use tabs unless I absolutely have to. Yeller, you had an issue with the Hydro, I stayed almost out of that conversation because we were going to do it right, now we will have the chance at PK. On my boat I have found only two 4 blades that are acceptable the Fusion and the New OXP. All that being said Bamboo, wait until the steering is on before anything else is done. Only make ONE change at a time period. That way you know what caused the difference, the primary rule. You only have a short time left this season use it.
Grizz-- I own a small custome machine engineering and manufacturing company for the Auto industry:bonk:The one thing I have been teelling my people to do from the beginning is "one change at a time"-- I am having the tabs and trimmed checked because it will be there and why not-- the steering is going to be a good thing any way and those two items are probably not huge issues---- The hook if it is there and if it is bad could be-- The shop knows way more about it than I do so I thought it would be better to have someone way more qualified than me check it out.
Not sure I understand "reverse chine"

Yeller-- regarding two molds-- that is a big difference-- but Donzis are not exactly High volume boats-- my guess is that no two boats are layed up the same or even by the same people-- plus you have other variables- weather = heat and humidity- chemical batches, on and on and on.

joseph m. hahnl
09-13-2009, 10:30 AM
Don't feel bad, I am 454 CC owner and I bought a '88 Donzi Classic 22 this week and got it wet yesterday, definitely a different experience! The CC is for riding, the Donzi ya gotta drive. The trim tabs are a science for sure, I was rolling along in 2 foot waves at about 65 when all of a sudden the boat rolled to the left sort of on its side and I thought OK, I'm toast, but I held steady on the wheel and throttle, read, no sudden moves, and it pulled back straight. Got a real pucker on that one, held it down the rest of the day. This is a boat that I bought on eBay and am still trying to figure out where everything is, and what I am going to have to fix. A blast to drive, but really scary when you are used to something that is rock solid no matter what, albeit much slower, ie less than 50mph. This Donzi is a dancer!:cool!:


The 24 degree dead rise is a shocker at first. after a while it won't even phase you.
Watch the 22 in this video
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5619553/14746188 (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5619553/14746188)

Did you see the Gunwale under water:shocking:?

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 06:18 PM
:confused:OK guys-- I just finished 3-4 hrs on the lake. I was wrong about the 4 blade- I was wrong about everyting I have written that made me feel I was moving ahead or doing better.
Today I was an a lake with just a few boats out--- I could easily work my through them- the boat worked good-- but bot great up to 60 indicated- in truth- she did not do that well.

I started at tabs all the way up and left them there-- I ran myself around the lake at varois speeds and at various trims---- at one point I decided to open her up and just work with trim-- OK__ BIG DISASTER WAS GOING TO HAPPEN-- she was rocking left to right- or the other - right to left- but it not controlable. The boat has tons of HP-- she wants to run- but she cannot run straight-- she cannot run on the chine-- she cannot get stable-- she wants to go crazy-- I a talking dangerous.

OK-- I know this is my first 22c--- but I am not that much of an idiot-- there is something wrong here. This boat is out of control without tabs.

Here is the deal-- the first hour---- NO TABS. I was able to experience a pretty good ride to 30-40 mph. I was even able to stabalize her to around 50-60 without tabs--- BUT I was really porpoising during the speed or rpm changing-- IF at those settings = no tabs plus some trim, I was to open her up-- she would just go crazy-- I mean huge left and right and I mean huge big porpoise -- could I balance her -- yes-- but only by backing off on everything.

I hit indicated 70, 60, 50 today--- not happy, confused, wonder if I bought a project.

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 07:28 PM
OK guys-- I wrote my last memo when I WAS PRETTY p****ed off. What I would like is a solution--but I know you cannot give me one- I have to find it for myself.
One thing I did not mention in the previous message is that on the second or third hour I started to drap the port tab. Why? -- the first hour my right side of the boat (starboard)) side of the boat was allways on the wrong plane. -- never the less I left her that way thinking she would balance out at full or near full trim---- never did--- but I left the tabs all the way up for miles-- no change in the boat handing- but did it anyway as a learning experience.
Once I had had enough of the really bad behavior, I raised the starboard tab and lowered the port tab----------- remember--- I started with all tabs up--- with the port tab down, I did better-- but not good enough-- I could hit 70(indicated) but the front end was getting really loose-- I was experiencing some huge - near violent rocking from left to right. My wife and friends were watching from shore and could notice when I had to back off completely to start over-- and I did - time and time again.

Sorry guys- there is something wrong here-- ready to go to a ZXO and do some family riding--- just fustrated:frown: Don't know what to do.

blackhawk
09-13-2009, 07:31 PM
Bamboo Loui I sent you a PM. You didn't buy a project, you just need seat time experimenting with tabs and trim position until you find the right combo for YOU and your boat. I went into detail in my PM.

BUIZILLA
09-13-2009, 07:35 PM
what prop was on it today?

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 07:50 PM
the 26 Bravo 1

joseph m. hahnl
09-13-2009, 07:55 PM
:confused:OK guys-- I just finished 3-4 hrs on the lake. I was wrong about the 4 blade- I was wrong about everyting I have written that made me feel I was moving ahead or doing better.
Today I was an a lake with just a few boats out--- I could easily work my through them- the boat worked good-- but bot great up to 60 indicated- in truth- she did not do that well.

I started at tabs all the way up and left them there-- I ran myself around the lake at varois speeds and at various trims---- at one point I decided to open her up and just work with trim-- OK__ BIG DISASTER WAS GOING TO HAPPEN-- she was rocking left to right- or the other - right to left- but it not controlable. The boat has tons of HP-- she wants to run- but she cannot run straight-- she cannot run on the chine-- she cannot get stable-- she wants to go crazy-- I a talking dangerous.

OK-- I know this is my first 22c--- but I am not that much of an idiot-- there is something wrong here. This boat is out of control without tabs.

Here is the deal-- the first hour---- NO TABS. I was able to experience a pretty good ride to 30-40 mph. I was even able to stabalize her to around 50-60 without tabs--- BUT I was really porpoising during the speed or rpm changing-- IF at those settings = no tabs plus some trim, I was to open her up-- she would just go crazy-- I mean huge left and right and I mean huge big porpoise -- could I balance her -- yes-- but only by backing off on everything.

I hit indicated 70, 60, 50 today--- not happy, confused, wonder if I bought a project.

Hold up a minute! porpoising is when the bow pops up and down
" Not Side to side"
Side to side would be Chine walking.

:crossfing:this might help:crossfing:
http://www.kencook.net/Chinewalk.html
http://www.bassboatcentral.com/new_page_2.htm
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/chine-walking-17405.html

BUIZILLA
09-13-2009, 08:02 PM
I firmly believe that prop needs to come off,and stay off... but that's just MY opinion... you have wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much stern lift going on..

I'll be quiet now..

Carl C
09-13-2009, 08:08 PM
OK, Yeller reported similar problems and all of this was hashed out with him. Then an experienced 22C pilot drove his boat and verified that there were issues. Bamboo Loui is not a rookie boat driver. I went through a learning period with my boat but never had these problems. Something is going on here and I don't think seat time or prop testing will fix it:confused:.

Bamboo Loui
09-13-2009, 08:42 PM
thanks Carl- I am not inexperienced- oh - I know a 22c is different than any other boat in the world-- sorry don't believe it-- hydrostreams where different too, but I could drive them all day long. there is something wrong here-- I wish someone who knew the boat would just speak up and we could go on from there-

Carl C
09-13-2009, 09:20 PM
I never had these issues with the stock Bravo 1 and stock lower. Bravo 1 and shorty, Bravo XR and shorty, 25p M+ or Bravo 1 4 blade.

BL, where are you in Michigan? I'd like to drive your boat.

roadtrip se
09-13-2009, 09:26 PM
Doug, I don't think anybody is going to be able to help you remotely, other than the hull check, prop testing, and steering install recomendations you have received. Have Brian check your gimbal and existing steering while it's at his shop, too. Something could be out of whack.

All of this said, there is simply too much going on to triage it without seeing and feeling it. I would move on and try some other props, but I wouldn't rule the Bravo out completely. Just remember every boat reacts differently to every kind of prop.

It may sound patronizing, but seat time IS going to help. So get back in the saddle and go do it again. These boats are NOT point and shoot. Never have been and never will be. I am getting the friendly reminder of this principle as I go through my break-in hours, the boat is different than it was and I am having to listen to what it tells me.

But there is nothing more exciting than running one of these things with precision and skill. I personally will be happy to come run this boat with you and see what happens, if you would like. I'll let you know next time I am in the area, if you wish to take me up on the offer.

EDIT: I see that Carl has made a similar offer as I was typing this out. I see no value in driving the boat personally. Helping you get the hang of driving it is my offer, after we figure out together why it is doing what it does.

oledawg
09-14-2009, 01:19 AM
As a newbie I certainly can't advise, but also as a newbie to this boat I know that it has to be "driven", it is not for "riding" as I found out the first time that I took it out. Was a pucker day for sure. Had to throw those shorts away! However in less than a week I am now getting the hang of it, AFTER listening to what folks have told me. Previous owner: once you set the tabs don't be messing with them while running at speed. This was excellent advice that I didn't listen to on my first run. Kept trying to keep the nose down too much and balance for my big self, BIG MISTAKE, I porpoised all over the lake, scaring me and half the boaters out there. Finally what worked for me was to set the Bennetts all the way up and equal and not touch them again, then used the outdrive trim to keep the nose up. Other thing is to not slam the throttle down, but to bring it up giving the boat dynamics time to adjust to speed. Boat is most comfy over 40mph and totally wonderful up to 55mph, after that it is still good but takes total attention and gentle adjustments with a firm hand. Got to "feel" the boat. After all, 60+ mph in this size boat is pretty fast and not for the timid. Awesome ride! As folks on my lake have told me, there is nothing like a Donzi with open exhaust at full throttle and nothing but the last couple of feet of hull in the water doing a flyby! Now, if I want to relax I get in the big old Correct Craft and can run 45mph all day without a care, holding the wheel with one hand and refreshment with the other, but that is riding, not driving. Big difference. :)

Carl C
09-14-2009, 08:37 AM
B L, you might want to read this thread:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44610

And then this one:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53323

I would still like to drive your boat and would let you drive mine.
(My last boat was a Hydrostream Vegas XT mod vp w/modified 2.4 200 hp merc, hyd. jackplate, foot throttle, NO2. Yikes!! Hang tight to that wheel!)

Bamboo Loui
09-14-2009, 10:29 AM
RTSE & CarlC-- thanks to both for the offer and I would be pleased to accept your offers. Carl- thanks for the threads to read- My feeling is it will be tough to take either of you up on your offers this year.
Here is the scoop---I go to Canada to my shop 2-3 days a week- normally Tuesday-Thursday. Next Monday the Boat goes to Brians for the steering and check up per Todds recomendations. Brian thought he would have it for 1 1/2 weeks. So I will get her back probably the end of the 1st week in October. I leave for Florida to baby sit the new Grandson on October 10th, returning November 2nd--- doesn't leave much time. I doubt I will be taking the boat to Florida until late fall or early winter so I will need to get her winterized before I go in October.
Carl- your threads you sent-- today I feel like Yeller- she just isn't much fun to drive right now and I feel a little down. The original Mirage plus was doing the same I experienced yesterday with the Bravo except I do think there was or is more torque effect with the Bravo.
RT--- read some of your threads re driving clean without Porpoise- I can't seem to find it with either prop--- or its me. The Bravo when first put on showed some promise. I originally thought I liked it more than the Mirage but in the end I find it has its own traits that I really do not like- shouldn't have bought it.
Today I have an aquaintance stoppping by -- he has had a 16-(1st on the lake when I was a kid)an 18 & a 22c-- it has been years since he owned them so I doubt he will offer much help -- I think I will just take hime for some slow rides to avoid danger and mistakes.
I may put the Mirage back on today just to see the difference again. Todd- you were in the boat when it had the Mirage-- either the driver or the prop or the boat was getting alot of tab work then - maybe he and I are just not that good as drivers.:boggled:

I think it will be at the AOTH that any improvement might be seen by tring some different props. Steering will be on and everything else should be checked out including any severe hook. Thoughts?

Bamboo Loui
09-14-2009, 10:33 AM
QUOTE --"Hold up a minute! porpoising is when the bow pops up and down
" Not Side to side"
Side to side would be Chine walking."

I actually meant what I wrote-- I was getting severe rocking left to right or visa versa-- not normal chine walking--- plus I was getting some side to side at the same time making it harder to control.

Carl C & Road trip this link shows where I live-- at the bottom there is a map than you can zoom in or out. http://www.fishingworks.com/lakes/michigan/st.-joseph/klinger-lake/klinger-lake/

I appreciate both your offers and the offers from others.

Bamboo Loui
09-14-2009, 06:48 PM
OK guys-- here is today's update-- I did take my acquaintance for a ride-- he is the one-- same age as me - mid 50s - who had the first Donzi on the lake and then an 18 on this lake. Later while living and going to school in California he bought a 22--- so it has been years since he has been on one--- so I take what he has to say with caution-- an 89 22c is not the same as an 05 22c-- but we went for a ride anyway.
Here is what I did-- because yesterday was such a disaster for me as a driver, I was really upset about even taking him for a ride- but he showed up so I did. I started with tabs all the way up--- took off really slow-(the engine was not up to temp) and reached a cruising speed at plane or 35-40mph-------- never -- not even once in that episode did any porpoising happen-- problem solved need more weight in the passenger seat!!!! Kidding-- we went around the lake quite a few times-- 6,7,10, not sure. But everything I did today was slow- no quick reactions to anything. I let the boat do her thing---- except-- he would tell me to lower the drive (trim) tabs were still full up.
I started to ease into the throttle a little and raise the trim a little-- all was OK. we worked up to 50 and experienced a little porpoising--- (too much for him as I watched him grab the handle)-- no blame on him as he did not know what I was going to do next.

We went around the lake a few times and I noticed a pattern-- the boat on the straights at 40-50 mph would find a place to settle after maybe a minute or two.

OK-- so I am still at tabs all up.
Next round- I speed up a little and she wants to porpoise- I tab her down as this is the first time she is listing towards the passenger-- same weight + 20lbs than me. she settles in again at around 50. I decided to increase the throttle a little-- and I brought the tabs up-- everything was great until we slowed to make our turn around the end of the lake-- eased off the throttle and lowered the trim a little-- got some porpoise but not real bad- made the turn and increased the trim to where it was and more porpoise-- it did settle but it took a while.
Next round-- tabs were more down as she was favoring the starboard side- trim at less than 1/4 but brought the throttle up while just bumping the trim-- took her to 60-- no real big deal but he was a little watchful and ready to grab a handful of grab rail.

60 is about as fast as I took her today-- I did not want to scare the heck out of him-- all told I have a great boat to drive between 40-55 mph.

When he left he told me that he never experienced his 22c being so out of control where I was actually pretty happy--- here was my thinking-- you have all told me about seat time-- so I worked from 30- 55 with a comfortable ride-- so should I hope for a learning experience that will take me higher?

BUT-- I also noticed that on this really slow ride that anything I would do that was quick or mildly drastic gave horrible results-- so the question is-- his question too is why should I drive a boat-- take an hour to settle her in and hope to go faster?

He felt I had a prop problem but did say he was no expert except he never experienced anything like this on his old boats when he had them.

Tomorrow I aim going to try to duplicate the run with just me or another friend-- I am going to push harder after the settled in feeling-- I will try to
incrementally increase everything.

I know I said I would do no more prop work until the Next AOTH-- but I figure I have a brand new Bblades prop on-- why not talk to them?
There have been huge numbers of non liker's of the Bravo1-- this again is a 26.
I have put a call into Bblades-- still cannot get to Bret and Brad will call me tomorrow.

Carl sent a good thread from Yeller-- I hope there is a little hope out there besides seat time-- I would like at least some of it to be enjoyable

Tony
09-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Bamboo, I feel for you but can offer no help.
(This thread has a lot of good advice, though, and is no doubt helpful to others who have handling issues.)

On second thought I can offer you a simple, guaranteed, (but expensive!) solution:
Swap to a Volvo DPX, 1.78:1, E-4 propset. Zero chine, zero porpoise, literally hands-free operation at WOT.

About halfway through this thread I describe the DPX more thoroughly:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51936&highlight=rails

Good luck!

:beer:

Bamboo Loui
09-14-2009, 07:42 PM
Thanks Tony- have had a few dp Volvos--and I really liked them. Unfortunatley $$$$$$$$$$-- but I also do not think that is my problem. There were things that I like about the Volvo and things I wished were different. I guess we are all tht way.

I really love the boat-- but she is truly a wild animal in my hands-- I say that because I am not sure if it is the boat or me.-- I want to believe I am a good enough driver to get her to work, but I also question that. On the complete other hand-- I make and sell really expensive equipment- I mean millions of dollars for one machine ( Idon't make millions)-- My customers expect a machine that will perform as expected-- this is the difference-- I bought a boatt that for some is a drivers boat-- I accept that-- but others have bought the near same boat and have no problems. It is the luck of the draw and maybe I will be better for getting the shorter end of the stick.

Doug

Bamboo Loui
09-14-2009, 07:50 PM
yesterday I had a huge response from tons of great guys that are all really trying to help.
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate everyones comments- I did not answer everyone- things were coming too fast-- but thanks to everyone- no message was unread and no message was taken less than serious or without gratitude. thanks all:bighug:

Doug Lammon

BigGrizzly
09-15-2009, 10:28 AM
Loui, the porpoise in turn is a normal thing but tabs make it worse, usually, Use trim only. Baby steps with trim When over trim down then trim up in small increments. The prop, you should stick to your original plan. By the time Blades is done you will be in big $$$$. Ask Tripper. This is not black magic. The props you have can get you on the right track. Yeller went fot the Hydro first and it was terrible, many stories like it however there are almost just as many in reverse. You will find that MOST 22C's on this board use either Turbo1 or TXP props. Here is another glitch Pitch also can be a culprit as well especially with the bravo, the Mirage gets real funky at 27 and larger on that hull. Here is another issue, most people will give advice on props who have only tried one or two styles of props. Carl for instance has mostly and on his new engine ,used Bravo1( labbed I believe). Yeller has had two different styles on. Tripper, Mick, Poodle and I have had no less then 7 each and we haven't stopped yet. Poor Tripper has to start from scratch again. Trust me the labbed thing will not be his first test prop unless it is given to him to try. so have fun and don't get caught up up a frenzy.

Bamboo Loui
09-15-2009, 03:13 PM
Big Grizz-- I pretty much felt the Mirage 25 was loose all the time-- but it is summer on this small lake so maybe the water was not clean enough--
The 26 Bravo one has been on for a few weeks-
Thanks to another member I was able to figure out at least one thing-- when the water is smooth I can run controlled. When I am into the wind in 1-2 footers-- no problem. When I am with the wind in the same, again no problem. Have a wake to cross-- no problem (with care applied)--

My best time on the boat was the day I received the Bavo 1--- that day the lake was real calm-- yesterday was calm, today is--- but when there are twenty boats out-- 10-15 jet skis and the water is coming from all directions is when I have the big problems-- When the guy in the 89 Navy Blue 22 ran by me we had the same water--rough-- he was up on top-- crashed through my wake like it was nothing and I was struggling not to kill my passenger- His takes the rough and mine does not----YET-- OK some of it is me, some of it is the boat somewhere- prop, steering, etc.
That is what I need to figure out.

OK- I know these boats are different- my natural instinct when I see some rough is to trim her up to avoid being steered by the nose instead of the steering wheel- with the other boats I would trim up and skip along the top keeping the nose away from the waves-- perhaps that is wrong with this boat but I have been pushed around by waves when trimmed to far down-- any thoughts from anyone is welcome.
I have read Yellers Thread and Carls before the transformation- I am sure there are more.
Are my natural instincts right to want to raise the bow when it is rough? not just for speed but to ride on top? A big part of me wants to think I need some bow to cut the waves, but be riding on the stern as much as possible to be smooth and not be pushed around by them.

This sounds like I am asking for a beginners lesson in boating- but I know this is different than big old Larson's or bravos or sea rays or any of the inboards running at 55-60 in chop with full trim (IOs only not the inboards)-- different boat- narrow, even small compared to some I have had.




thanks

oledawg
09-15-2009, 03:56 PM
My 22C with a Mirage 27p and my limited experience seems to work best at speeds above 50-55 when tabs are up and trim is up pretty darn good also. If I slow down I have to trim down to get "bite" again, but while trimmed up at speed the boat is very stable, handling almost any wave from any direction, just sort of goes right over the top versus trying to plow through. Trying to plow through at speed produces all sorts of strangeness, so I am keeping nose up! :wink:

Bamboo Loui
09-15-2009, 04:20 PM
I really don't mean plow- I mean cut-- using the last half or one third of the boat-- to plow or when the bow is down it is ugly at any speed above 40-50

oledawg
09-15-2009, 04:27 PM
My 22C does not like to have the bow down at any rpm above 2,000. That I know. My best rides are keeping all tall! :cool!: Yes, I have to bring trim down to accelerate otherwise I get some serious prop spin with little movement. Still am not touching the Bennett's, just leaving them full up, no matter what I am doing. Might as well be fixed instead of moveable. Has worked really well for me. Simple is good. :kingme:

Bamboo Loui
09-15-2009, 04:33 PM
Wish it was that simple for me-- maybe it will become that- right now different circumstances require different settings-

BigGrizzly
09-16-2009, 09:12 AM
Louie, This is typical of a normal hull experienced person. If you steer away from wakes the boat rocks side to side, not comfortable to newbies. Now every wave is different. That boat can ans should be used at an digressive angle. Speed plays a big part. Slow is not usually the best. I will bet just everyone else that after you get a handle on it, you will not be happy with other hulls. I still say drive what you have for now and wait for ATOH. You don't have enough time left to do the props right. Lessons are free. We transformed Mick into a capable driver, and he has driven cars as fast as anybody, but had much to learn. There are countless others too. Relax, my wife finally got a handle on HER Corsican. Yes My son and I lost it last Memorial day weekend:cool::cool: It all of a sudden clicked and she spent an hour telling me how good it felt. All it happened to be was seat time ALONE without me:yes: Quite frankly she is better putting it on the trailer then me. It is just practice and she does it well. Now to turn her loose in the Ocean:yes::yes:

oledawg
09-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Great advice, Big Grizzy! Patience and "feel" are key. :cool!:

Bamboo Loui
09-17-2009, 12:09 PM
"" I still say drive what you have for now and wait for ATOH. You don't have enough time left to do the props right."

Spoke with Bblades today- asked them to just keep my file open for next year and I spoke with Brian41 re/ the Steering and other work scheduled to start next week. He would agree with me keeping the boat for a couple more weeks for more seat time and then take her for the steering and what ever else we decide to do. Have not decided yet but I think I may keep her in the water for the next couple of weeks but will check again with Brian.

Oledawg-- please keep in mind, I am not having much of any problem running smooth or anything unless I am 65+ or up to the indicated 75 I am getting- that is when I am having the problem. I too keep her trimmed at anything other than putting around as if I was in a CC = Chris or Correct Craft. With patience she is real sweet-- it is when I get aggressive that I have the problems-

I am thinkiing steering will help - tons of seat time before and after training @AOTH and then some prop work- unless there is time for that at AOTH too

The added seat time I am getting is helping-- talking with people and this board has been a help and a confidence builder. Tiny incremental changes work the best- I just need to learn - as in feel the time to make them so that I can do it as fast and smooth as I would if I was wearing her like a glove.

I'll let you guys know if she is going to brians monday or not-- if so she may not get back into the water this year-- in Michigan anyway.

oledawg
09-17-2009, 01:10 PM
I guess the max 60 - 65 gps mph that I get out of my 454 mag is just way too slow for the guys in this forum thread! Can't speak to driving anything over that for sure, not even sure that I want to, not sure that on my little lake it would even be safe, way too many idiots on PWC's. Think that I am just going to be happy with the speed that I have and work on giving the 22C some TLC. "If it ain't broke, no need to fix it". That is the great thing about a Donzi, it sounds and looks like it is going fast even when it is not. The SMILES PER HOUR factor is phenomenal!

Now don't be dissing my ole CC, she is a great boat! Put that bimini top up, crank up the sound system, keep a cold beverage in the hand ( wheel in the other ), and just let that 454 lope on up the lake. AND, if anyone wants to ski, she has the skipole and can pull 3-4 without even thinking hard about it. Different kind of boat, NEVER has let me down. It is at Race City Marine right now getting stainless straight pipes put in to "improve" the riding ambiance. Not a Donzi, but still a great boat!


:beer:

Bamboo Loui
09-17-2009, 01:49 PM
I guess the max 60 - 65 gps mph that I get out of my 454 mag is just way too slow for the guys in this forum thread! Can't speak to driving anything over that for sure, not even sure that I want to, not sure that on my little lake it would even be safe, way too many idiots on PWC's. Think that I am just going to be happy with the speed that I have and work on giving the 22C some TLC. "If it ain't broke, no need to fix it". That is the great thing about a Donzi, it sounds and looks like it is going fast even when it is not. The SMILES PER HOUR factor is phenomenal!

Now don't be dissing my ole CC, she is a great boat! Put that bimini top up, crank up the sound system, keep a cold beverage in the hand ( wheel in the other ), and just let that 454 lope on up the lake. AND, if anyone wants to ski, she has the skipole and can pull 3-4 without even thinking hard about it. Different kind of boat, NEVER has let me down. It is at Race City Marine right now getting stainless straight pipes put in to "improve" the riding ambiance. Not a Donzi, but still a great boat!


:beer:

Don't worry-- no dissing from here-- I had my 1st CC, a mustang-- bright yellow just like my 22c, it had a 289 when I was 16. 3 more CCs since then, I love them. My current favorite is my best friends resorter 18-(sorry it is a Century)- has a 318 with some kind of cam in it-- beautiful. My point was she is out of control-- or I am at WOT and 5000rpm not at 4000 rpm-- it will probably be me in the end-- by the way- my lake is only 2 1/2 miles long- maybe 950 acres-- we have the same idiots and it is real scary-- I try to drive fast when there are only a couple of boats on the lake-- just don't trust the other guys-- most of them are big city folks who come in with their friends and kids and We are grateful and happy that no one gets killed on busy weekends-- I don't take the 22c out unless most if not all of the traffic is off-- but the lake stays churned up for a couple hours.:wink:

yeller
09-21-2009, 01:27 PM
Bamboo Loui,
I posted earlier, trying to run without tabs would kill ya. You boat sounds exactly how mine runs. Try going over 80, now that's a short soiler.

Carl posted a couple threads I started about similar problems. I thought I had it all figured out when I went to the M+, but unfortunately that day must have been simply the perfect water conditions for my boat. It is way better with the M+, but still far worse than what others here are experiencing. The boat hates 4 blades and stern lift. (Keep in mind, mine is S/C'd and requires larger props, so what helped mine, may not help yours). I still experience what Bamboo Loui is experiencing.

I honestly don't mean to disrespect anyone here, but if you haven't driven a 496 boat then you really can't understand how different they can be. There is absolutely no comparison between an 80's boat and the 496's. Just ask Farmer TX. He drove mine and hates it.
There is definitely a difference between 496 boats as well, so there must be a difference in the molds used. (I have been told there is more than one used).

Even the 'good' 496 boats require more tab adjustment than the older ones. Need For Speed sold his older 22 and bought an 05. Although he never complained about the problems Bamboo and I are experiencing, he did comment on how much more 'tab sensitive' the newer one was.

My suggestion is don't spend a ton of money on props, but definitely try anything you can get your hands on....and take RTSE up on his offer. He has a lot of experience with Donzis....and believe me, he'll tell ya if your full of sh##. I truly wish someone could show me that the boat is great and I'm a crappy driver. I'd easily accept that as a solution to the problem.

roadtrip se
09-21-2009, 01:46 PM
My suggestion is don't spend a ton of money on props, but definitely try anything you can get your hands on....and take RTSE up on his offer. He has a lot of experience with Donzis....and believe me, he'll tell ya if your full of sh##. I truly wish someone could show me that the boat is great and I'm a crappy driver. I'd easily accept that as a solution to the problem.

And of course, since I am so willing to tell you when there is a load present, many here feel the need to tell me when they feel I might have a load present. And sometimes they're right! The Mack Truck goes both ways on the BS highway. Wouldn't have it any other way, actually.

As for trouble boats. I have had, as well as many others here, the opportunity to sort out a couple of tough cases in the past. I am not going to go into details here, because it is up to the owners to pipe up about their boats if they want to, not me. Handling can be impacted by several items on a long list and you just have to keep clicking through them, until something works or addresses the issue.

Starting with props, getting some more seat time, and having Brian go through the mechanicals is a great place to start.

Happy to help, if I can.

Bamboo Loui
09-21-2009, 02:32 PM
And of course, since I am so willing to tell you when there is a load present, many here feel the need to tell me when they feel I might have a load present. And sometimes they're right! The Mack Truck goes both ways on the BS highway. Wouldn't have it any other way, actually.

As for trouble boats. I have had, as well as many others here, the opportunity to sort out a couple of tough cases in the past. I am not going to go into details here, because it is up to the owners to pipe up about their boats if they want to, not me. Handling can be impacted by several items on a long list and you just have to keep clicking through them, until something works or addresses the issue.

Starting with props, getting some more seat time, and having Brian go through the mechanicals is a great place to start.

Happy to help, if I can.


A boat whisperer. as always thanks for all your suggestions and I certainly hope I will be able to take you up on your offer. I guess I will find out more in a week or so after Brian gets his hands on it. I was bothered by not knowing and I have done as much driving and researching as I can find time for. I am getting better at the driving but, I tend to want to just go. You know-- faster.
Interesting-- at the shootout-- You, Carl, Air and a slew of others are going to take off from the starting line and accelerate, get up on trim as fast as possible-- I am still finessing things-- going faster all the while but making small adjustments as I go to fix where I over do things-- I am talking trim and throttle more than the tabs-- I am getting better at the tabs up- except-- once I get to 4k+ it starts to get hairy-- like I said-- getting better but not there and hope Brian-- and then you guys can help me get the rest of the way-- one thing for sure-- if it is hull related, I have to fix it-- can never go bigger (HP) if the hull is the problem. But that is getting ahead of myself.

BigGrizzly
09-21-2009, 05:28 PM
One thing I will say is Trip, Poodle, Catch22 and I will be the last to plane out, thats a fact these kind of starts cost too much$$$, so don't fall into that trap.

Bamboo Loui
09-21-2009, 05:51 PM
One thing I will say is Trip, Poodle, Catch22 and I will be the last to plane out, thats a fact these kind of starts cost too much$$$, so don't fall into that trap.
Hey Grizz-- big hopes on getting her to Tallahassee this winter-- you are 4-5 hrs away-- do you put your boat away in the winter?
Is Eufala OK through the winter? I have never lived there in the winter months. If there are places to play that are day trips I would like to know.-- could learn allot over the winter if I can get her down there-- depending on hull work.

doug(Loui)

BigGrizzly
09-21-2009, 05:59 PM
I really do not put the boats away, I sort of winterize them. I have closed cooling systems so it is pretty easy for me. In Atlanta it does freeze, but USUALLY it is not long. I also have a heated garage for my boat, just for that reason. Now Tallahassee is quite a bit warmer, talk to Forrest on that one. Eufaula is 3 hours south of me but worth the trip for events. I Live on lake Lanier in Georgia so I do not have to haul anywhere if I do not want to.

Bamboo Loui
09-21-2009, 06:38 PM
here in Mi. you just have to winterize-- I have a heated polebarn- finished inside-- but I still worry about power outages if I am not here. House has the generator so no problems-just moved here last fall and I did not set up a generator for the polebarn- Tallahassee would be different for the boat.

I'll check with guys who live there. My daughter says it is perfect weather- 65-80 days. occasional freeze but rare. clear skies.

Hoping Eufaula could have some nice days during the winter-- we will see.
Could always go way south-- or even to Jacksonville and learn my way through the intercoastal. Thanks for the reply

Air 22
09-21-2009, 08:10 PM
Tally you can get away with a goldenrod (http://www.goldenroddehumidifiers.com/) or even a light bulb in the bilge during the rare cold snaps...


What's a "Cold Snap" in Miami?...is that the sound of a cold beer being opened? or the sound of ur fingers asking for another round?....
Awwwwww SNAP...:angel: :pimp:

Tborisch
04-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Did you get your boat sorted out. Yours sounds alot like my 2003 496HO boat.

I've only been out a few times in it, but it's a handful to drive. I think i scared my wife out of the thing for good today. The boat rolled right up on it's side today in a turn.

Im going to try a new prop, but this thing is doing some stuff i've never seen before. I raced boats in the apba, ive driven off shore, etc. Im not a rookie..

I don't think i would trust this thing if my wife wanted to take the kids for a ride.

Any update would be really handy.

Tom

oledawg
04-16-2010, 08:45 PM
My 22C gave me a couple of scares until I "learned" that: got to run with the tabs full up, handles best at above 45 mph, it is a deep V so at many speeds it will roll on its side for sure in a sharp turn, it is not for running slalom courses, it is for straight line speed, balance is very important, need to wear PFD and use the kill switch cord for high speed runs, etc.

I love this boat, but no way my wife or kids are going to be driving it. I have other boats for that, ones that are much more forgiving. If you don't think that some Donzi's will bite you, you shouldn't be driving one hard until you get used to it. At 70 mph my 22C is as stable as can be, just slides right over most rough water, but no way I am going to make a ski boat type turn in it, sure recipe for disaster. :cool!:

Tborisch
04-16-2010, 09:21 PM
I turned the boat today going about 30mph with no tabs. The boat rolled so far up on it'd side it almost dumped my wife right out of the back seat with my 3 year old. We wear pfd's... That doesn't make it any more fun to drive thru something like that. It felt like the boat was almost riding completely on the freeboard. I thought it was going to slide right out.

Tom

Carl C
04-16-2010, 10:24 PM
Did you get your boat sorted out. Yours sounds alot like my 2003 496HO boat.

I've only been out a few times in it, but it's a handful to drive. I think i scared my wife out of the thing for good today. The boat rolled right up on it's side today in a turn.

Im going to try a new prop, but this thing is doing some stuff i've never seen before. I raced boats in the apba, ive driven off shore, etc. Im not a rookie..

I don't think i would trust this thing if my wife wanted to take the kids for a ride.

Any update would be really handy.

Tom

I agree an update would be good.


My 22C gave me a couple of scares until I "learned" that: got to run with the tabs full up, handles best at above 45 mph, it is a deep V so at many speeds it will roll on its side for sure in a sharp turn, it is not for running slalom courses, it is for straight line speed, balance is very important, need to wear PFD and use the kill switch cord for high speed runs, etc.

I love this boat, but no way my wife or kids are going to be driving it. I have other boats for that, ones that are much more forgiving. If you don't think that some Donzi's will bite you, you shouldn't be driving one hard until you get used to it. At 70 mph my 22C is as stable as can be, just slides right over most rough water, but no way I am going to make a ski boat type turn in it, sure recipe for disaster. :cool!:

Word.


I turned the boat today going about 30mph with no tabs. The boat rolled so far up on it'd side it almost dumped my wife right out of the back seat with my 3 year old. We wear pfd's... That doesn't make it any more fun to drive thru something like that. It felt like the boat was almost riding completely on the freeboard. I thought it was going to slide right out.

Tom

You have to go into the turn with just enough drive tuck and speed to stop the porpoising. As you exit the turn start raising the drive; And port tab if you had to drop it. As soon as you feel the boat rolling too far start raising the drive, then straighten out the boat. I want to drive your boat.

Tborisch
04-16-2010, 10:29 PM
Sounds good to me. Let's get together this week. I will call you Monday morning. Maybe Parnell, you, and I could go out this week Tuesday or wedensday?

Tom

Carl C
04-16-2010, 11:17 PM
Sounds good to me. Let's get together this week. I will call you Monday morning. Maybe Parnell, you, and I could go out this week Tuesday or wedensday?

Tom

I'm in if weather permits.

Tborisch
04-17-2010, 06:22 AM
I'm in if weather permits.

nice! I'll get some insurance before we go out. :)

Carl C
04-17-2010, 06:45 AM
nice! I'll get some insurance before we go out. :)

Insurance is good but not mandatory in Michigan. I have it of course. We will most likely be OK for one day if you don't get it in time. Right now it looks like thursday is the best weather day but you know how that changes!

Bamboo Loui
04-17-2010, 08:00 AM
I agree an update would be good.







You have to go into the turn with just enough drive tuck and speed to stop the porpoising. As you exit the turn start raising the drive; And port tab if you had to drop it. As soon as you feel the boat rolling too far start raising the drive, then straighten out the boat. I want to drive your boat.

Carl is right about turning from my limited experience so far after one season-- 1st day out in the boat I did the same as you-- trim tuck is the key (I think)-- it is mentioned in the reviews I mention later--

TBORISCH/ Carl-----No update yet, I am curently visiting my daughter and Grandson in Tallahassee and the boat is in Mi. still under wraps in the pole barn. Our house sitter says our docks are in but the boat lifts are still not- I imagine by the time we get back they will be in and we can get the boat out and see how the new Hyd steering works-
- I am pretty sure it will be a little help. Been writing and talking to a few guys-- some seem to think that a shorty might help and more prop work -- AND more seat time. I do have to say I could drive the boat better in the fall than in the spring when I bought her. They are different boats for sure.

Carl-- I looked and could not find the recent thread with reviews of the 22C by different boating mags- do you remember the thread??-- I thought the handling characteristcs described were interesting and useful.
If Not-- Tborisch-- pm me your email and I will send the articles to you by email- I did downloaded them on the 28th of March.
Doug:wink:

Tborisch
04-17-2010, 08:46 AM
I guess what bums me out is I have ridden in other classics, and none of them were as much of a fight to keep under control as it sounds like this one will be.

Tom

oledawg
04-17-2010, 09:05 AM
These boat are not happy at certain speeds, might be that 30ish is one of those, a point where the "V" wants to fall over, too much for it to stay in the water, and too much so that is on the "V" instead of the rear. At speed only the rear 4 feet or so is actually in the water along with the drive, at slower speeds it is riding on the "V". I too have "fallen over", and it is weird, the seat time to me is the most important, you have to learn the boat. My Correct Craft with a 454 is much different, you can crank it hard at almost any speed and it sticks, as it is supposed to do due to the hull design. The 22C is made for straight line speed and it does an excellent job of it.

Carl C
04-17-2010, 09:33 AM
Carl is right about turning from my limited experience so far after one season-- 1st day out in the boat I did the same as you-- trim tuck is the key (I think)-- it is mentioned in the reviews I mention later--

TBORISCH/ Carl-----No update yet, I am curently visiting my daughter and Grandson in Tallahassee and the boat is in Mi. still under wraps in the pole barn. Our house sitter says our docks are in but the boat lifts are still not- I imagine by the time we get back they will be in and we can get the boat out and see how the new Hyd steering works-
- I am pretty sure it will be a little help. Been writing and talking to a few guys-- some seem to think that a shorty might help and more prop work -- AND more seat time. I do have to say I could drive the boat better in the fall than in the spring when I bought her. They are different boats for sure.

Carl-- I looked and could not find the recent thread with reviews of the 22C by different boating mags- do you remember the thread??-- I thought the handling characteristcs described were interesting and useful.
If Not-- Tborisch-- pm me your email and I will send the articles to you by email- I did downloaded them on the 28th of March.
Doug:wink:

I got the impression that those test drivers were clueless! i think I printed out all of the articles. I will look for the thread


These boat are not happy at certain speeds, might be that 30ish is one of those, a point where the "V" wants to fall over, too much for it to stay in the water, and too much so that is on the "V" instead of the rear. At speed only the rear 4 feet or so is actually in the water along with the drive, at slower speeds it is riding on the "V". I too have "fallen over", and it is weird, the seat time to me is the most important, you have to learn the boat. My Correct Craft with a 454 is much different, you can crank it hard at almost any speed and it sticks, as it is supposed to do due to the hull design. The 22C is made for straight line speed and it does an excellent job of it.

Tounament ski boats can spin 180s because of the fins on the bottom. It soaks everyone in the back seat! They are so slow and boring to drive though.

oledawg
04-17-2010, 10:05 AM
Exactly, that is why I love my '88 Donzi 22C, it is for "driving", the CC is for "cruising", etc. Again, seat time is hugely important at various speeds and conditions to "learn" what works and what doesn't. It is a beautiful, fast classic that gets a lot of attention whenever it is out. I would not call it a "family" boat necessarily, but it can be once you learn it and understand the parameters. :cool!:

Bamboo Loui
04-17-2010, 12:38 PM
I guess what bums me out is I have ridden in other classics, and none of them were as much of a fight to keep under control as it sounds like this one will be.

Tom

My feelings exactly after first taking delivery of the 22. I had lived on the lake almost my entire life-- 58 now!! so thats allot of time on a lake even in Michigan-- I really like the boat- it does look and sound great--thrilling to drive-- but not always a safe feeling-- I have heard others have boats that do not require the care while driving--and I believe it-- but I also think their are some drivers that are better AND some drivers that like the crap scared out of them or they just aren't scared at all and should be.
I've looked at allot of videos and their does seem to be boats that do not require anything special-- but I myself could not be out driving like in Mishis post re his Whipple instal-- I guess that is why I gave up driving on the track too-- gettin old and my reaction time is not what it used to be, nor is my stomach -- feeling more mortal now days.

Where in Mich are you??
pm your email and I will send a short quick time to you of me doing around 60-- I think you can see the start of the uneasy ride developing-- at only 60!!!! but -- I can now drive 60 totally smooth without any of the rocking-- 70 is a different matter and above that is still crazy-- maybe some will improve with time- ( indicated not GPS speeds)

Carl C
04-17-2010, 12:59 PM
My feelings exactly after first taking delivery of the 22. I had lived on the lake almost my entire life-- 58 now!! so thats allot of time on a lake even in Michigan-- I really like the boat- it does look and sound great--thrilling to drive-- but not always a safe feeling-- I have heard others have boats that do not require the care while driving--and I believe it-- but I also think their are some drivers that are better AND some drivers that like the crap scared out of them or they just aren't scared at all and should be.
I've looked at allot of videos and their does seem to be boats that do not require anything special-- but I myself could not be out driving like in Mishis post re his Whipple instal-- I guess that is why I gave up driving on the track too-- gettin old and my reaction time is not what it used to be, nor is my stomach -- feeling more mortal now days.

Where in Mich are you??
pm your email and I will send a short quick time to you of me doing around 60-- I think you can see the start of the uneasy ride developing-- at only 60!!!! but -- I can now drive 60 totally smooth without any of the rocking-- 70 is a different matter and above that is still crazy-- maybe some will improve with time- ( indicated not GPS speeds)

Tom and I are getting out next week. Looks like Tuesday. Come along and we'll drive each other's boats and get to the bottom of this. We'll be near Grand Rapids I think.

Bamboo Loui
04-17-2010, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the offer Carl-- I will still be on vacation -- will be in Myrtle Beach seeing my other daughter-- not getting back until the 27th or later.

Hey-- just looked at DonziBlues vid in the video posts-- I think that is what we are looking for

Doug

Bamboo Loui
04-17-2010, 01:11 PM
Too bad-- you'll be close too:garfield:

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 03:07 PM
Hi Guys-- thought it was time for the update about the handling issues now that I have had the steering on.
The big question-- did it fix the problems? Yes and NO. Just what you expected, right?
The steering is really great and I love it. I can honestly say the boat needed it and it ( the steering ) by itself has improved and enhanced my enjoyment of the 22C. I can and do handle the boat throughout the mid and lower upper portion of the performance window on this boat with no comparison to last year with the stock steering. The boat turns and tracks throughout the ranges much better and without any drama. I can drive the boat faster around my lake than before with much more confidence-- SO-- thanks to all for the recommendation!!
However-- I or the boat, or the boat and I still have a couple of problems. As mentioned in the thread by myself or even others with 22C experience, things can happen that are scary and even dangerous.
I still have the 26 B1 on the boat and am experiencing porposing from take off to what ever speed I am driving-- let me explain-- I can take off either with no tabs or with tabs and drive slowly but deliberately faster to what ever cruising speed I choose by accelerating and letting the boat settle or get out of a porpoise with throttle only--- but I will in either case of using tabs or not go through phases of porposing-- each porpoise has to be throttled out of. Similar to last year but it is a quicker process this year with the added stability of the steering.
I can cruise at nearly any speed to 65 without trimming, but only if I stay on the throttle and always throttling out of porpoises-- when and if I trim with or without tabs I can open her up -- everything is OK and then BAM! she gets upset!! Unlike the porposing throughout the ranges that are something I want to get rid of even though I can handle it, this mishandling event that comes on out of the blue with no warning is very troubling.
I have been driving the boat in sort of a test mode, trying to keep everything the same I I drive her to get a feeling of what single thing happens or what is the root cause. I start each day with a full tank of gas and the only other variable is weather and lake conditions-- in the case of lake conditions I have even tried to keep that the same or nearly the same.
The OH BOY LOOK OUT event happens at the upper range of throttle with a little trim with or without tabs. Sometimes just happens or if a wave happens to be there-- BAM-- just that fast the boat is upset.
So last years chine out of control feeling has translated this year into a severe blowout of control that is unexpected compared to last years gradual build to out of control-- all in all I think the steering has helped allot - but now I get this breaking point where the boat gets really upset and it happens so fast it is hard to react to-- this year there is no hints to let you know it is coming.

What's next? I think that maybe I have a situation where the B1 is doing an OK job but I should not be going through the proposing to the extent I am-- I do expect some and some is ok-- but it is more than I think most on the board would accept, and then when all H*ll breaks loose it may be a miss match with the B1-- it just can't do more for me.
Or-- I need faster tabs, because of the size of water I am on, the slow Bennett's cannot react quick enough--- not sure-- ? why should I need quick tabs? if the boat did not get upset, slow tabs would be fine.
Or-- would a Shorty improve things?
Or-- as 22times2 has suggested, maybe a blackhawk would improve handling like going to a DPX/DP

First thought is prop-- I wonder if the B1 just gets out of its element with this boat at speed?

Going to duplicate everything (the tests) with the Mirage this weekend but I expect worse.

thoughts? comments? Thanks to all
Doug

VetteLT193
06-07-2010, 03:32 PM
you shouldn't need tabs. If I were you I'd take the boat out and not use them at all. I know all the 22's are set up differently but I can't see why you would need them at a decent speed.

I can send you a prop to try if you want, just pay shipping or pick it up next time you are down my way. 25 M+ blueprinted but not labbed.

My brother HATED the Bravo on his 22. I never tried it so I can't say. He likes the Hydromotive.

The porpoise thing is a seat of the pants feel so it is tough to say. Either the prop and your boat don't mix or maybe it is just a trim thing. too much in or out will cause porpoise. I think the average joe assumes to trim in more but that isn't the case. Eddies 22 loves trim so I have to wonder if you just need to trim out more?

Regardless of all the above guessing... nothing will change the feel, attitude, etc. of a boat more than the prop(s) so look there first

gcarter
06-07-2010, 04:21 PM
'and the crowd chanted;
Shorty!
Shorty!
Shorty!

and a whole bunch of props.....
Ya gotta do somethin' different to get a different result.
W/a 2" shorty, a 1" spacer, and 5 or six "different" props,
you'll fix this thing!

ITTLFLI
06-07-2010, 04:21 PM
Has anyone run a bravo III drive on a 22? :shades:

gcarter
06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Has anyone run a bravo III drive on a 22? :shades:

MOP ran a Blackhowk w/B III props.
He didn't have the Oooomph to run the props, so it was inconclusive.

gcarter
06-07-2010, 04:28 PM
I recently read an article about aerodynamics in race cars and how it takes some big changes to generate some decent, measurable results.
I think there's a corollary.....

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 04:34 PM
Quote-- Vette--"you shouldn't need tabs. If I were you I'd take the boat out and not use them at all. I know all the 22's are set up differently but I can't see why you would need them at a decent speed."

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't-- I tried to expain, but I think it is hard to explain everything, but I did these runs and tests -- with and without tabs. I have no problems running without them. Different than many posts I can take off with out any severe listing--most of the time and never use a tab until the blow out. But the same is almost true with tabs-- with tabs I have to do more work to keep the boat stable SOMETIMES-- other times the tabs actually help a little-- no I take that back-- Tabs have not been much help and add to the boat getting unsettled. why is that???

Bob-- thanks for the offer on trying the prop-- might try it- but I still wonder if something more is needed.

Doug

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 04:35 PM
MOP ran a Blackhowk w/B III props.
He didn't have the Oooomph to run the props, so it was inconclusive.

what about 22times2s posts??

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 04:47 PM
'and the crowd chanted;
Shorty!
Shorty!
Shorty!

and a whole bunch of props.....
Ya gotta do somethin' different to get a different result.
W/a 2" shorty, a 1" spacer, and 5 or six "different" props,
you'll fix this thing!

TBorish ---just did the shorty and stated his handling did not really improve "But it drives about the same, just faster on the top end.
It is a totally different animal though. If you don't want to relearn tabs and drive trim, don't swap!"

gcarter
06-07-2010, 04:57 PM
TBorish ---just did the shorty and stated his handling did not really improve "But it drives about the same, just faster on the top end.
It is a totally different animal though. If you don't want to relearn tabs and drive trim, don't swap!"

"IF" yours and Yeller's boat each have a 1" or so lower "X" dimension and are each devilishly difficult to drive (and I've ridden in Yellers boat, and it's everything he says it is) then it has a corresponding 1" longer lever arm trying to push up the bow.
Shortening that arm will have an impact.

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 05:05 PM
"IF" yours and Yeller's boat each have a 1" or so lower "X" dimension and are each devilishly difficult to drive (and I've ridden in Yellers boat, and it's everything he says it is) then it has a corresponding 1" longer lever arm trying to push up the bow.
Shortening that arm will have an impact.

Thanks George-- I have two votes for that and a vote for a different prop.

I agree with the lever arm concept and have been thinking in that direction for a while-- wrote to Yeller that I thought the angle of attack was wrong with his and my boat

also think a prop could help-- the B1 raises the stern--that is good to a point--the Mirage is the opposite-- also good on "some " boats - maybe something in between?

gcarter
06-07-2010, 05:09 PM
Try some non-Merc props.
I think you'll end up w/a different prop and a different lower.

Griz always says try 5 or 6 props all on the same day.
Measure the results.

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 05:16 PM
Try some non-Merc props.
I think you'll end up w/a different prop and a different lower.

Griz always says try 5 or 6 props all on the same day.
Measure the results.

thats what i would like to do -- but I don't have 5-6 props

wish I could have gone to AOTH--

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 05:17 PM
Gcarter-- think you are right on the lower too- I feel so close- yet I know how that last 5-10% is the toughest

RickSE
06-07-2010, 05:23 PM
Quote-- Vette--"you shouldn't need tabs. ...

Don't believe this, especially on a newer 22C. I have K-planes on my 22C and love them. They're fast acting and I always know where they're at with the indicators. My boat almost always requires a little port tab to run comfortably below 60-MPH. I can get away w/o tabs but the boat will get upset, start to porpoise, sometimes settle sometimes not.

As for the prop. I've tried Hydro's and a Bravo and hated both of them, guess I've gotten used to the way the M+ carries the boat. My boat felt glued to the water with the other props w/too much bow steer that wanted to dart the boat off in some strange direction.

My X is 1.5" above stock, which helps but I'm also a lot heavier in the stern then stock which hurts. I do believe raising the X helps cut down porpoise but I beilieve you need to keep bow lift.

gcarter
06-07-2010, 05:25 PM
thats what i would like to do -- but I don't have 5-6 props

wish I could have gone to AOTH--

When Griz get to feeling better, it might be worth a trip to North Georgia to visit him.
He can supply the props.

Bamboo Loui
06-07-2010, 05:44 PM
When Griz get to feeling better, it might be worth a trip to North Georgia to visit him.
He can supply the props.

Love to-almost on the way to my daughters house- I have on purpose not bothered him-and didn't write him prior to AOTH for that reason------- I went through enough last winter with my broken ankle and -A-FIB---- he went through allot worse than I did. Glad he is OK. He wrote me last year and is great.

gcarter
06-07-2010, 05:52 PM
I've seen Rick's boat in action and was impressed w/it.
It seems to be well sorted out.

undertaker
06-08-2010, 07:52 AM
BL I have a 05 22 with 496HO and it needs some tabs like Carl C boat to run smooth at slow to mid range speed at top end tabs come up.... have tried four props on it (Mirage Plus, Turbo, Turbo TXP, Bravo I)...here are my results..

25 P Mirage Plus (Factory prop) Fast prop BUT terrible on my boat, boat handled like crap in most water conditions and speeds ditched that prop right away... 74-75 GPS but scary..:nilly:

25P Turbo & 26P Turbo TXP also a fast prop handling improved big time over the mirage in most water conditions and speeds.. loved those props (its my fast prop:) ) 75-76 GPS..

26 P Bravo 1 (labbed and tweaked some from Bblades) lost about 2 mph (72-73 GPS) BUT most importantly boat handles awesome in ALL water conditions and speeds (its my rough water, better handling prop)

I am also going to try a fusion four blade and a hydro QIV once I can get my hands on them...

My suggestion would be try more props, dont be afraid to use some tabs and trim is important also....One thing I have learned in the four yrs going on five with my boat is every 22 is different been to many many donzi events and have rode in many 22's (different yrs and power) and ALL are different IMO.

I would also suggest if your schedule allows consider going to the Lake George event in June there will be a lot of knowledge at this event and many 22's (different yrs and power) to ride in....Grizz will be there with some props you can try....Air22 will also be there he has a 1995 with 500EFI, Bob Haver with a 1996 502 22 both boats run great, and I will be there with my slow boat..:)...PM me if you need more info about the event or wanna chat about newer 22 classic boat handling.....:cool:

Undertaker:shades:

PS I also have ziegler steering just to be clear....:kingme:

Pismo
06-08-2010, 08:41 AM
BL I have a 05 22 with 496HO and it needs some tabs like Carl C boat to run smooth at slow to mid range speed at top end tabs come up.... have tried four props on it (Mirage Plus, Turbo, Turbo TXP, Bravo I)...here are my results..
25 P Mirage Plus (Factory prop) Fast prop BUT terrible on my boat, boat handled like crap in most water conditions and speeds ditched that prop right away... 74-75 GPS but scary..:nilly:
26 P Turbo & Turbo TXP also a fast prop handling improved big time over the mirage in most water conditions and speeds.. love that prop (its my fast prop:) ) 75-76 GPS..
26 P Bravo 1 (labbed and tweaked some from Bblades) lost about 2 mph (72-73 GPS) BUT most importantly boat handles awesome in ALL water conditions and speeds (its my rough water, better handling prop)
I am also going to try a fusion four blade and a hydro QIV once I can get my hands on them...
My suggestion would be try more props, dont be afraid to use some tabs and trim is important also....One thing I have learned in the four yrs going on five with my boat is every 22 is different been to many many donzi events and have rode in many 22's (different yrs and power) and ALL are different IMO.
I would also suggest if your schedule allows consider going to the Lake George event in June there will be a lot of knowledge at this event and many 22's (different yrs and power) to ride in....Grizz will be there with some props you can try....Air22 will also be there he has a 1995 with 500EFI, Bob Haver with a 1996 502 22 both boats run great, and I will be there with my slow boat..:)...PM me if you need more info about the event or wanna chat about newer 22 classic boat handling.....:cool:
Undertaker:shades:
PS I also have ziegler steering just to be clear....:kingme:

Under,

Did you lose or gain rpm going from a MPlus 25" to the TXP 26"?

Thanks

gcarter
06-08-2010, 08:43 AM
BL I have a 05 22 with 496HO and it needs some tabs like Carl C boat to run smooth at slow to mid range speed at top end tabs come up.... have tried four props on it (Mirage Plus, Turbo, Turbo TXP, Bravo I)...here are my results..

25 P Mirage Plus (Factory prop) Fast prop BUT terrible on my boat, boat handled like crap in most water conditions and speeds ditched that prop right away... 74-75 GPS but scary..:nilly:

26 P Turbo & Turbo TXP also a fast prop handling improved big time over the mirage in most water conditions and speeds.. love that prop (its my fast prop:) ) 75-76 GPS..

26 P Bravo 1 (labbed and tweaked some from Bblades) lost about 2 mph (72-73 GPS) BUT most importantly boat handles awesome in ALL water conditions and speeds (its my rough water, better handling prop)

I am also going to try a fusion four blade and a hydro QIV once I can get my hands on them...

My suggestion would be try more props, dont be afraid to use some tabs and trim is important also....One thing I have learned in the four yrs going on five with my boat is every 22 is different been to many many donzi events and have rode in many 22's (different yrs and power) and ALL are different IMO.

I would also suggest if your schedule allows consider going to the Lake George event in June there will be a lot of knowledge at this event and many 22's (different yrs and power) to ride in....Grizz will be there with some props you can try....Air22 will also be there he has a 1995 with 500EFI, Bob Haver with a 1996 502 22 both boats run great, and I will be there with my slow boat..:)...PM me if you need more info about the event or wanna chat about newer 22 classic boat handling.....:cool:

Undertaker:shades:

PS I also have ziegler steering just to be clear....:kingme:


Now there you go Doug!
That's an offer you shouldn't refuse!
If you go through Canada, It's not even that long of a trip is it?

RedDog
06-08-2010, 08:53 AM
I put a Bravo I on my 22 and experienced a lot of chine walk on the upper end. I had some cup added to the blades and the chine walk went away. It still needs more pitch though.

undertaker
06-08-2010, 09:00 AM
Under,
Did you lose or gain rpm going from a MPlus 25" to the TXP 26"?
Thanks


I lost RPM... with mirage was 4850 rpm before dana exhaust, after exhaust all over the rev limiter, was running a 25 P turbo (not TXP) before exhaust also all over the limiter, after exhaust upgrade, went up to a 26 TXP right at 5000 now @ 74-75 GPS:):pimp:


PS Sorry edited my post above forget the Turbo was a 25P and was before I upgraded my exhuast, the TXP is a 26P and after I upgraded my exhaust....

BigGrizzly
06-08-2010, 09:01 AM
STOP!!! First let me explain what you are dealing with! When you get up to above 65 the strakes are out of clean water so now it is on just the ROUND part of the hull. Now it becomes a balancing act. You think 70 is hard try low 80s. The boat acts opposite direction that you think. Left is right and right is left. Now for the prop issue. I would explain this but ir takes 3 beer and a large supreme pizza to do it . On some boats the Bravo has that characteristic to let go all of a sudden ans usually. at a slightly different speed each time. Some people drive through it and don't even know it, just because they have been doing it for so long. I was one of them It took a pro driver to explain it to me. I have been driving Donzi hull since 1966. Prop will help but experience is it..

BigGrizzly
06-08-2010, 09:10 AM
Ed I was not going to pack any fusions bur I i will pack one for you to try at LG.

undertaker
06-08-2010, 09:16 AM
Ed I was not going to pack any fusions bur I i will pack one for you to try at LG.



Thanks Grizz that would be great......see you there...:shades:

RickSE
06-08-2010, 09:32 AM
...On some boats the Bravo has that characteristic to let go all of a sudden ans usually. at a slightly different speed each time. Some people drive through it and don't even know it, just because they have been doing it for so long....

This may be true. My boat seems like it wants to chine walk and do some funny stuff in the low 70's range, but usually when I'm going there I'm headed for higher speeds so I just blast through it. If my limits were in this range it might be uncomfortable.

Again I like the Mirage+ for it's ability to carry the boat over the rough stuff rather then through it. I think any prop can be figured out though with time and maybe even some tweaking like the other's describe.

VetteLT193
06-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Bamboo, did you do the tab modification that Grizz talks about to bring the tabs higher? If they are dragging at all even all the way up they might be hindering your ability to keep the nose up.

Bamboo Loui
06-08-2010, 09:04 PM
sorry guys-- my hotel wireless is preventing me from navigating- I have been on for an hour and read 1 page-- be to my office by mid to late afternoon-- thanks to all and thanks for the patience:frown:

yeller
06-09-2010, 01:28 AM
BL, you know I'm experiencing the exact same things you are. I've had the boat for 4 yrs and still feel like a rookie. I'm really looking forward to (hopefully) swapping boats with Titan one day this year. He has an 04 496HO boat as I do, but doesn't seem to have nearly the same handling issues. If we swap boats, I can once and for all, determine if it's the boat, or me.

You are already one up on me though. Hydraulic steering did absolutely nothing to help the handling on mine. Just made it more difficult to dock.

I hated the B1. I didn't like the Hydro Q4. The M+ was an improvement, but didn't solve the problem and blows out unbelievably easy. I now run a Tempest + which runs about the same as the M+ but doesn't blow out as easy. I still want to try more props. I'd love to try a lefty. I'd like to try a 5 blade. I'd love to try a full blown clever. I want to try a shorty. I'd love to try a Blackhawk. If I could get a loaner, I'd try a B3. I'd like to put K-planes on. I'd love to put a set of Big Honkin' K-planes on.

My point is....try everything and anything you can get your hands on. Listen to everyone's suggestions and give them a try if you can, but don't believe them if they say they know what the solution is. No one knows the solution. If there was a solution, I'm sure it would have filtered its way down from Donzi over the years.

I personally believe it's a combination of weight, layup, and which mold it comes from. I think a dual prop setup would overcome most of the handling issues....but remember what I said..............don't believe someone if they say they know what the solution is. :wink:

RickSE
06-09-2010, 09:20 AM
Very well said Yeller.

I'm surprised you found a Tempest with enough pitch for your boat. I didn't think they went that big but I guess with the Bass guys they would.

The prop I'd really like to try is a Revolution-4. I ran one on my old 18C aginst the Mirage+ and really liked it on the 18. Looks like they are making it up to 25P now.

CaribouLou
06-09-2010, 12:17 PM
I believe the tempest goes up to 27 or 29

HOWARD O
06-09-2010, 12:48 PM
I would explain this but ir takes 3 beer and a large supreme pizza to do it .


That's classic.......good to have you back, Grizz!!! :kingme:

Bamboo Loui
06-09-2010, 05:28 PM
Well -- I guess you guys did not get any of my post replies last night-- I thought I was beeter off tonight in this hotel- but wondering if I am writing and no one will see it-- I still have a major problem with either my computer or it is this hotels new router-- I have spent two hours reading posts-- so accept my thanks- and I will try to answer and get back tomorrow--hope this gets to the site!:boggled:

Doug

22times2
06-09-2010, 06:17 PM
anyone in question come try my boat o5 22c b1x the blackhawk fixed my issue any takers just get to maine I will even let you drive.mike

22times2
06-09-2010, 06:20 PM
oh by the way no external steering needed (just my humble opion)

Planetwarmer
06-09-2010, 07:46 PM
My boat tops out at 63!:shocking::nilly::eek:!!!

No Chine walk, no external steering, problem solved.


Your boats just go too fast. Slow down and the problem will go away. Then I will quit wishing mine was faster, so I don't have the slowest 22C on the board.

CaribouLou
06-09-2010, 07:51 PM
My boat tops out at 63!:shocking::nilly::eek:!!!

No Chine walk, no external steering, problem solved.


Your boats just go too fast. Slow down and the problem will go away. Then I will quit wishing mine was faster, so I don't have the slowest 22C on the board.


Mine goes zero, because its on blocks and not running :wink:

onesubdrvr
06-09-2010, 07:51 PM
Mine goes zero, because its on blocks and not running :wink:
Mine doesn't even float ;)

Wayne

RickSE
06-10-2010, 09:49 AM
...Your boats just go too fast. Slow down and the problem will go away. ...


No slower is worse. We have to go faster to stay out of the porpoise speed. When I have to cruise with our friends non-Donzi boats in the 30-35 MPH range it's painful as all heck because I can't even get the boat trimmed up and out of the water.

We just have big rocker hulls that only like to go fast.

Bamboo Loui
06-10-2010, 04:21 PM
Finally-- decent internet speed-- there is no way I can answer all the questions without making a huge post -- nor can I comment on others comments or findings with out the same huge post-- I doubt anyone would want that.
1.It seems that allot of people find their own solution.
2.I wish-- but cannot make LG this year as it is the same weekend I am flying my Daughter and grandchild up to Mi from Florida for a week of vacation for her
3.My X is low compared to normal according to our local guy that many of you know of,-- or know personally.
4.interested in new tabs and indicators like micks for bling and cruising
5. planning on trying a TXP in a week or so-- think it is on the way and will put the M+ back on tomorrow for another trial.
6. planning on way more seat time but worry about bad habits -- = prevention of improvement or adding to bad habits = more bad habits!!
7. should sit down with Griz for some story lessons and what ever I can obtain-- but won't be till fall if Griz is available-- maybe Eufaula?
8. currents tabs have been shortened
9. going to look at some hull things just to check-- straight edge was done last year by someone else-- tiny hook-- no worries.


What else??? RickSE-- boat sounds great-- 22times2 sounds great-- I love roosters!!!! but I guess I should keep searching to be a smart Grasshopper:wink:
thanks again to all:bighug:

Bamboo Loui
06-10-2010, 04:23 PM
Undertaker-- you have allot of prop experience- thanks for the input

VetteLT193
06-10-2010, 08:30 PM
as far as the tiny hook, relative to a 23-24 year old boat you have to be better.

It seems that a certain 22 is heading your direction to a new home.... you might work out a drive sometime but if you need any measurements before on a no BS ride 22 let's just say now is the time.

I am taking an educated guess here based on info from the registry but it seems that these boats like weight in the azz end... based on MOP with a small block telling everyone to move weight back I honestly think the 496 might just be too dang light especially in combination with (hopefully) lighter layup with the newer technology glass work.

so... as a stupid test... anyone with issues maybe a few sandbags/other in the bilge as a trial to see what the boat does. make up for the weight. plus, make up for any lack of weight in the layup of the hull. a stupid easy test would be to tape down the bilge pump float and add water down there.

just have to be super careful.

undertaker
06-10-2010, 08:31 PM
No problem dont be afraid to give me a shout if ya wanna chat...:):pimp:

Bamboo Loui
06-11-2010, 05:26 AM
as far as the tiny hook, relative to a 23-24 year old boat you have to be better.

It seems that a certain 22 is heading your direction to a new home.... you might work out a drive sometime but if you need any measurements before on a no BS ride 22 let's just say now is the time.

I am taking an educated guess here based on info from the registry but it seems that these boats like weight in the azz end... based on MOP with a small block telling everyone to move weight back I honestly think the 496 might just be too dang light especially in combination with (hopefully) lighter layup with the newer technology glass work.

so... as a stupid test... anyone with issues maybe a few sandbags/other in the bilge as a trial to see what the boat does. make up for the weight. plus, make up for any lack of weight in the layup of the hull. a stupid easy test would be to tape down the bilge pump float and add water down there.

just have to be super careful.

I guessing you brothers boat? coming up here? pm me contact info if its ok with the new owner.

VetteLT193
06-11-2010, 06:47 AM
I guessing you brothers boat? coming up here? pm me contact info if its ok with the new owner.

will do after I talk to him or I'll ask when he picks it up.

Bamboo Loui
06-12-2010, 09:54 AM
OK, all you guys that have been saying seat time, experience etc. were right!! Big Surpise !! Yesterday after a long day on the road I decided to take the boat out for some relax time--or thrill time and one of my wifes friends wanted to go-- knowing that I have scared everybody I have taken out I decided to do my best so I started with tabs down to counter the passenger weight - but started with the wrong tab down because I was too busy talking-- readjusted while driving even though the boat was upset with my stupid tab work and eventually got us balanced using both tabs-- but, low and behold- as I increased speed and trimmed a little and reduced the tabs until mostly up-- then trimmed more, adjust one tab up I was driiving around the lake with out porpoise-- no chine, WOT at just over 70 indicated and no drama what so ever. Made my turns atr a higher speed than I ever did- accelerated into the straight sections on over with and with out a passenger.
I really loved how the boat was handling-- it felt like I could do anything except hit a higher max speed. BUT-- for taking someone out and running as fast as we were it was a pure joy.
My wife was on shore watching and said I was runnig fast and flat. She commented that I had never run full open for so long- meaning that was really fast on the lake for me-- I just did not need to slow down to counter a upset or even through the ends of the lake I was carrying more speed than ever before.
****!!! this seat time thing is starting to be fun!!! :party:

Carl C
06-12-2010, 10:46 AM
Good news! Tom seems to be having better luck with his too. Now we need to get Yeller straightened out.

Tborisch
06-12-2010, 11:34 AM
I remember this ride! The "turning point."

glad it finally happened to you! You will still have days that suck, and it just fights you the whole time. Don't let it discourage you, it's not the boat, lol! :)

Tom

Bamboo Loui
06-12-2010, 12:16 PM
yeah I know -- I had a similar but not as good day last year and the next day out I could barely get the boat going straight!!-- hoping for the best though.
Now that I can see some light at the end of the tunnel it is hard not to want to go ahead with more prop work- shorty or BH, & more stuff!!:nilly:

Tborisch
06-12-2010, 12:47 PM
I am loving the shorty, and now I have a hydromotive P5X 26p prop on the way.

There is a newly rebuilt blackhawk drive on OSO for 5k. But you need to totaly redo your drivetrain for one of those, I think?


Tom

Bamboo Loui
06-23-2010, 08:49 AM
Hi Guys- I finally got out to try a TXP Turbo that was sent to me to try and compare with the M+ and B1 that I have. The M+ and B1 are 25p &26P respectively.
I started by going back to the beginning with the M+ plus, then to the B1, and then to the Turbo- a 26p.
As when the boat was new to me last year, the M+ requires a little starboard tab to run level. The boat felt light and would porpoise throughout the throttle range unless quite a bit of tab was used and got real squirrely at near WOT. There was a general feeling of not being planted and me not having real control although the steering has helped tremendously. The boat responds very quickly to driver input. The M+ will run (albeit for a short time as I loose nerve) at 5100rpm and the Speedo bounces with the boats bouncing and chining between indicted 75-and 80. But this is really for short periods of time as I feel uncomfortable with the handling-- the above is with tabs up to mostly up and trimmed out quite a bit.
The B1 runs kind of like a cruising prop in that I feel way more in control- there is no drama- still has porpoise at various speeds but you can drive out of most all of them, except-- I think I may be in a chine/porpoise combo at wide open that I cannot get past as mentioned by Grizz earlier. This is with tabs up and 1/4 trim compared to the M+ which easily trims to 1/2 trim if I am not watching myself. With tabs up the B1 runs at 4800-4900rpm and the Speedo says 75+. With tabs down the boat stays pretty planted and runs at 45-4700rpm at what the speedo says is 70+.
Keep in mind that I do not have a gps so the numbers are from me glancing at the gauges as I am driving and trying to soak up all the different inputs from the boat.
I was excited to try the Turbo. From the get go I had to use the starboard tab to level the boat. The boat accelerated quickly-- more so than with the other two props. There is a feeling of allot of thrust with the Turbo. The turbo for me had a lot of the personality of the Mirage-- different but similarities. There was light feeling to the boat, quite a bit of porpoise, and required a firm grip on the steering wheel once up to upper cruising speeds. I used quite a bit of tab with this prop but found that tab did not get rid of the porpoise and I even wonder if I was making it worse at some times. at one section on the lake I decided to trim her out and pull quite a bit of tab up. again firm grip, loose feeling, but at WO and allot of trim the whole boat seemed to lift right out of the water-- totally new feeling in the boat. It was like the boat and I were disconnected with the water. Frankly I chickened out and brought her back down. I could not push the prop the way I thought I would - these props get a lot of grip. I could run approx 70mph but only 4400rpm with tabs and only 4500 with out and the trim. During the out of the water experience, I was somehow trimmed to half, and I know I was faster than above but backed out to early to see the gauges.:shocking:
Overall, The B1 is my favorite "go out and fast cruise prop" I think a different Turbo may give a different result than the one I tried as the 26 may be too much for the boat-- (or my driving :bonk:) if I should be driving at 5000rpm+.
I think the Turbo, if I can learn to drive would be the "go fast" prop, BUT, it is also a good fast cruiser if I can get out of the porpoise.
I did also do a little learning on driving the boat thanks to the turbo-- while cruising around the lake at 50-55 the boat would occasionally go into a porpoise and or start to chine a little and I found I could bring it out with a simple and very minor move of the steering wheel. I doubt I could have done that with out the Hyd steering. It would have taken a major left-right move with the wheel-just like last year. Love that Steering.
Thanks everyone for previous input and thanks for the test prop!!:bighug:

RickSE
06-23-2010, 10:14 AM
...the M+ requires a little starboard tab to run level. ...

You mean port tab right? The right hand prop requires port tab to negate the torque lean of the prop when the trim is down; pushing the boat back over to starboard. As you trim up the torque lean starts to go away requiring less tab on the port side. My port tab alone is enough to knock down the porpoise below 60.

Take it slow. It took me several years to figure out my boat and feel comfortable. I spent a lot of mornings out in the boat by myself with a life vest on. I still try new things but feel like I know the boat pretty well now with the prop I have. I'd pick one prop and run it til you feel comfortable.

BigGrizzly
06-23-2010, 11:18 AM
It will take more then one day to work the TXP.. It does lift the boat much highert hen the other two. I do have some other props that will fill the bill. More seat time is needed. Tabs need not be used when you get the idea. Remember that every speed has a different trime angle to stop the porpoising. The trim gauge is not always right.

Bamboo Loui
06-23-2010, 02:39 PM
You mean port tab right? The right hand prop requires port tab to negate the torque lean of the prop when the trim is down; pushing the boat back over to starboard. As you trim up the torque lean starts to go away requiring less tab on the port side. My port tab alone is enough to knock down the porpoise below 60.

Take it slow. It took me several years to figure out my boat and feel comfortable. I spent a lot of mornings out in the boat by myself with a life vest on. I still try new things but feel like I know the boat pretty well now with the prop I have. I'd pick one prop and run it til you feel comfortable.

yes I did mean the port tab or larboard tab-- I was in a huge hurry when I wrote it this morning- I did find some pretty good relief of the need for the tab as I increased speed and trim as you mentioned- Grizz's post re the TXPs difference was a big part of what I was going through and I was not giving the TXP boat combo enough time to learn it-- the lift factor is as great as the torque factor- I have a lot to learn-- been thinking of buying a couple of comfortable auto inflate mavericks to do exactly as you say- go out and learn more- maybe some day get some lessons -- don't want all my experience creating bad habits!!!!