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View Full Version : What Do You Think About "Green" marine engines



silverghost
08-18-2009, 09:04 PM
After reading a thread here about the newer "Green" electronic Fuel Injection & Ignition systems ; and related service issues; I wondered what was the general opinion of performance Donzi owners?
The "Green" future is here.
Two stroke outboards & PWC engines are almost history.
Electronic fuel injection is the future. When working well these engines give you great performance and fuel economy with utra low emissions.
Calif. has mandated their sale & use.
But what about all the ECM control box and sensor failure issues?
The first use I ever saw with electronic FI on a boat was a special Indmar Cadillac Northstar edition of the Mastercraft Skiboat wih Indmar marined Northstar engine! This was the first, and possibly only, use of the Cadillac Northstar System that I am aware of.
An owner of one of these boats has had noting but sensor related failures since he bought his skiboat!.
Indmar is now putting special high-priced $$ marine manifolds with built-in catalytic converters on some of their top-of-the-line marine inboard engines; complete wih oxygen sensors!
Are there many service related problems popping-up with these new FI engines?
How are they performing & more importantly holding-up in service?
As for me~For now I will stick with my simple time tested big four barrel carbs & simple ignition systems!
Sooner or later, with pressure from Uncle Sam & the EPA we will all some day using these new "Green" engines!
I guess I will be forced to go along with this "Green" trend~ Kicking and screaming all the way!
What about you?
What are your thoughts and experiences with these engine systems?
Brad Hunter

Morgan's Cloud
08-19-2009, 07:04 AM
Brad ,

I ran an old tech 351 4V with points and all that good old fashioned stuff for many years in the St T.
It was reliable and easy to fix .

The new 350 fuel injected package with Volvo's latest electronics is a completely different animal.
Hot or cold turn key starting , smooth as can be , very good economy and seems to be at least 40% stronger than the 351.

I do regret that I'll probably only be able to do oil and filter changes from now on , but pray that this stuff is as reliable as the old ..... Yeah , dream on eh ?

There has been a lot of discussion elsewhere on what's going to happen if marine engines have to have cat converters on them but I seriously wonder about the issue with the sensors as well .

IIRC why was it that there was a number of sensor issues on the 496 when Merc had over 8 years to get the bugs out with the 502 ? ?

gpapich
08-20-2009, 11:50 AM
I've been reading up on a lot of this. I think FI and closed loop operations is the way to go. Just follow the automotive aftermarket and pay attention to the differences in our boats' power and hull performance requirements (torque is king).

EFI, properly marinized and protected will work fine. I'm sold on the reliability of automotive EFI. I had a 1990 Nissan 240SX with 201,000mi, and I am currently driving a 1998 Chevy Astro to tow my X-18 (when I can get that back up and running). The Astro's got 212,000 miles, is driven daily, and is still running great minus the usual GM creaks, rattles, and crappy interior. Great drivetrain though...

I'm a fan of WeatherPak connections. You can always go Milspec as requirements dictate...

I'd love to convert my X-18 over to EFI with the ability to run closed loop and tune the ignition and fuel curves via laptop, real-time. Just like cars, get a baseline out of the vehicle on the dyno, install the engine and computer, and final tune the system out on the water.

Emissions will come with the territory. Need to get a reliable water-cooled or insulated marine catalyst.

silverghost
08-20-2009, 02:40 PM
Indmar, a speciality inboard engine builder used mostly in skiboats, has developed a new catalyst that they are now selling on their higher-end Multi-port EFI engines with combination marine manifolds &.catalytic converters.
Check Indmar's engine website & also do a Google search for Indmar Marine Catalytic converter.
These are very pricey manifolds with converters indeed !
Their new "Green" catalytic converter engines have a very low CO output!
Over the years a small number of waterskiers have become sick ; and a few have died from breathing exhaust CO while close in to the transom!
Indmar is pushing this"Green" marine Ctalytic converter as both being "Green" and safer for people! I believe they are the first to use special marine cat manifolds. I hear other marine engine builders are looking at cats for the future also.
Indmar's new cat engines now meet Calif's new future air standards NOW!

Just Say N20
08-20-2009, 02:51 PM
Two stroke outboards & PWC engines are almost history.

Brad Hunter

I don't believe this statement is accurate. Everything I have read suggests that the current Evinrude two-strokes have already met the "Clean Regulations" for many years to come. Same thing with the PWC engines.

The last issue of Boating had a cover story on the comeback of the outboard, specifically because of their level of performance, fuel economy, weight, and the fact that they will meet Clean Air standards for a long time to come, without all the catalytic converters, etc. that are coming to allow inboard engines to be clean enough.

MOP
08-20-2009, 03:07 PM
Don't rule out the two strokes, Yamaha and Bombardiers Etech family have been doing a great job proving otherwise. Direct injection has tilted the playing field, according to JD Power the new Etech's are doing very well. Weight also has a lot to do with the good 2S DI numbers.

Planetwarmer
08-20-2009, 04:22 PM
How about a 2 stroke 502!:nilly::yes::eek:

gpapich
08-20-2009, 05:19 PM
How about a 2 stroke 502!:nilly::yes::eek:

Would it sound like a V-16 or do the whole two-stroke "ring-da-ding-ding" sound? :P

BTW, not to steal the thread, but if you're interested in unique engines, check out the Deltic diesel as used on the PTF "Nasty" class PT boats in Vietnam ( http://www.ptfnasty.com/ ) two-stroke, wild sound, wild design...

wytmike
08-21-2009, 12:58 PM
California is already requiring catalysts and OBD-M in almost all boats beginning with the 2009 model year. Anything new under 500 h.p. has to be ultra low emissions and I think by 2010-11 most over 500 will too.

They haven't started testing for equipment and emissions yearly yet, but I'm sure that is coming.

I've had EFI in our Cobalts (both Mercruiser and Vovlo) since the late 90's and never had any problems. 40 degree mornings and the boats start right up and are ready to go.

I have heard they are having lots of problems with the catalyst equipped boats though. From overheating to catalyst problems due to water. Nothing like trying to but a device that wants to run real hot in a closed engine compartment.

joseph m. hahnl
08-23-2009, 08:24 AM
E-tecs are here to stay. A technology that came from diesel engines is also migrating into 4 cycle gas engines. The day of the intake valves is disappearing.


DIESEL ENGINE TRIVIA: Today's high performance diesel engines.

Fuel passes through the injector at speeds of nearly 1500 miles per hour - as fast as a jet plane at top speed.

Fuel is injected into the combustion chamber in less than 1.5 milliseconds, the same time it takes for a camera flash to go off.

The minimum amount of fuel injected into a diesel engine is one cubic millimeter - about the same volume as the head of a pin.

Volkswagen has developed a 1 liter diesel powered car that got 100 kilometers out of .89 liters of fuel {60 miles on approximately 3/4 of a quart of fuel!}

In order to reduce emissions, modern car engines carefully control the amount of fuel they burn. They try to keep the air-to-fuel ratio very close to the stoichiometric point, which is the ideal ratio of air to fuel. Theoretically, at this ratio, all of the fuel will be burned using all of the oxygen in the air. For gasoline (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gasoline.htm), the stoichiometric ratio is about 14.7:1, meaning that for each pound of gasoline, 14.7 pounds of air will be burned. The fuel mixture actually varies from the ideal ratio quite a bit during driving. Sometimes the mixture can be lean (an air-to-fuel ratio higher than 14.7), and other times the mixture can be rich (an air-to-fuel ratio lower than 14.7).

The main emissions of a car engine are:

Nitrogen gas (N2) - Air is 78-percent nitrogen gas, and most of this passes right through the car engine.
Carbon dioxide (CO2) - This is one product of combustion. The carbon in the fuel bonds with the oxygen in the air.
Water vapor (H2O) - This is another product of combustion. The hydrogen in the fuel bonds with the oxygen in the air.
These emissions are mostly benign, although carbon dioxide emissions are believed to contribute to global warming. Because the combustion process is never perfect, some smaller amounts of more harmful emissions are also produced in car engines. Catalytic converters are designed to reduce all three:

Carbon monoxide (CO) is a poisonous gas that is colorless and odorless.
Hydrocarbons or volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are a major component of smog produced mostly from evaporated, unburned .fuel.
Nitrogen oxides (NO and NO2, together called NOx) are a contributor to smog and acid rain, which also causes irritation to human mucus membranes.










Old boats will never have to comply with emission standards as they will be grand fathered, But when Gas goes up to 10 bucks a gallon big block Chevy motors will not be Viable:kingme:

realbold
08-26-2009, 09:43 PM
The minimum amount of fuel injected into a diesel engine is one cubic millimeter - about the same volume as the head of a pin.
A very blunt pin. A millimeter is over .039"

DC18
08-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Indmar, a speciality inboard engine builder used mostly in skiboats, has developed a new catalyst that they are now selling on their higher-end Multi-port EFI engines with combination marine manifolds &.catalytic converters.
Check Indmar's engine website & also do a Google search for Indmar Marine Catalytic converter.
These are very pricey manifolds with converters indeed !
Their new "Green" catalytic converter engines have a very low CO output!
Over the years a small number of waterskiers have become sick ; and a few have died from breathing exhaust CO while close in to the transom!
Indmar is pushing this"Green" marine Ctalytic converter as both being "Green" and safer for people! I believe they are the first to use special marine cat manifolds. I hear other marine engine builders are looking at cats for the future also.
Indmar's new cat engines now meet Calif's new future air standards NOW!
Have heard the same thing. Was told by a local service manager that Merc and others are working on the "cat" thing. Only problen is I am told, that a marine cat life so far is arround three years in fresh water and about half that in salt water. Would be an expensive fix. Their estimating the cat's to be arround a grand each! That will put a dent in ones wallet. Hopefully they will work out any problems. Have also heard that by next year most marine engines will have to have the cat's installed.

realbold
08-27-2009, 06:07 PM
The head is the opposite end from the point..
:bonk:
There's a joke in there somewhere, I'm sure someone will be along to complete it shortly.. :nilly: :nilly: :boggled:
:rofl: